Lien_Geller's Story Review Thread.

[Bramblethorn]

Great post here, gonna add my 2c worth:

1: Motivation – This is probably the most important aspect of your character. Why the hell do they want or need to take part in your story? What’s driving them? In my early example of Jake, the crazy skydiving instructor, let’s have his motivation being that he’s a thrill seeker. How are you going to convey that effectively in the story? You can’t just write “He jumped out of a plane. It was a thrill.” Maybe Jake spent most of his young life indoors due to an illness that he’s overcome as an adult. So going outside and doing crazy shit makes him feel alive in a way he always longed for as a boy. Make sure you anchor this shit properly and don’t rely on tropes to do it for you. “We’ve got to save the world” isn’t good enough. “I want to see boobs” isn’t good enough. “I love this woman because we’re married” isn’t good enough. These ideas can be a good starting point, but they need fleshing out if a reader is going to buy into that character’s motivation. Getting this right is crucial to taking your reader along for the ride in your story-mobile. Don’t fuck it up and don’t get lazy with it.

Speaking of "don't get lazy": major characters should usually have more than one motivation. A lot of great stories come out of people being pulled in two different directions by conflicting drives.

If you're writing in "architect" mode, you're probably going to be looking for motivations to make your characters fit the plot. If so, it's usually a good idea to introduce that motivation in advance. (In "gardener" mode, you're more likely to start with the motivation, and let that create plot.)

2: History – I don’t know where I’m going, but I sure know where I’ve been. Those immortal words from Whitesnake are great advice for figuring out a good character. Thinking about where a character has come from makes it much easier to figure out how they’ll react in any given situation you throw at them. Working on this also makes characters feel much more real and worn in.

One part of this that often gets neglected is family. Does your character have parents, siblings, kids? How do they relate? (I'd add "partners" but Lit stories usually do remember that bit, for obvious reasons.) I feel like a lot of fictional characters get orphaned because the author couldn't be arsed coming up with that sort of background, but it really is great for helping to get in their head.

 

[Lien_Geller]

Perspective, first impressions, author's notes and the dangers of infodumping.

Right then, we’ve talked about how to approach writing and how to think about planning the story. So let’s move on to actually writing the damn thing.

The first thing you’re going to want to figure out is from what perspective you want to write the story. First person, second person or third person? First off. Just do me a favour and scratch second person right off that list. I’ve never seen it done well. It might work with a kinky correspondence with a single person but hearing “You walk over to the table and bend over” just makes me think “no I don’t, so ner ner ner ner ner!”

First person is great to write with simpler stories, but remember that you’re only going to be able to follow your narrator unless you want multiple viewpoint characters. I wouldn’t advise new writers to try that, because making one character sound distinct isn’t as easy as a lot of writers make it look. I wouldn’t advise trying it with two or three right away. First person has the added advantage of being able to more fully immerse yourself inside a character’s head, and helps the reader to do that too. Characters have an easier time expressing their thoughts and feelings, and you can sometimes have fun making them unreliable or tricking the readers in ways that would feel like cheating in third person.

Third person is easier to deal with bigger stories involving a lot of characters. You also don’t have to spend as much time in your protagonist’s head, which can make you think more about the plot and the other characters. In erotica, it also has the advantage of being gender-neutral. I’ve found that as a straight dude I sometimes have difficulty reading first person erotic stories where the narrator is a woman. This isn’t remotely because I think there’s anything innately bad about female narrators, I just have more difficulty relating to them telling me about wanting to get nailed by Todd’s huge boner. Again, nothing against Todd, or his huge boner, but that’s just not something that I’d consider a pleasant experience.

The decision of what perspective to take is yours, but once you’ve picked it then always maintain it for the entirety of the story. Don’t switch around without a damn good reason to. Going from a general third person narrative to, for example, a discovered letter written in the first person is fine. Just don’t shift from one to the other at random because it’s a fucking huge distraction.

The pros cons of both first person and third person are easy to get around once you get used to writing, so my advice would be to pick the one you’re most comfortable with unless your story really specifically requires you not to.

The opening line of any story is probably the single most important one you’ll write. Remember, you’re not at school anymore where you’re submitting stuff to your long-suffering English teacher who has to read your crap. This point becomes all the more important when you consider that on this site there are literally thousands of other options for readers to go on to. It’s even more crucial because you don’t have the benefit of interesting cover art or a proper blurb to get your reader interested. You’ve got your title, a short line to explain what the story’s about, and then everything’s on the opening line of the story.

Don’t fuck it up.

Now, obviously that’s a lot of pressure on one line and I’m not looking for literary perfection. Don’t spend hours, days or weeks trying to write something clever that will go down in the history books. That’s a spectacularly good way to get fuck-all done. If it’s really bothering you, then skip it and just start somewhere you feel comfortable because there’s always the editing phase to fix that kind of thing.

Just remember that the point is to hook the reader into the story. There’s no point in saying something very clever to show how witty one of your characters is if it has nothing to do with the main characters of the story itself. You want to invest your reader in your ideas, and compel them to continue reading. Don’t take the attitude of: “Well if they can’t keep reading then it’s probably just because they’re lazy or they don’t understand what I was trying to do.” The market for stories that people actually pay for is so saturated with utter garbage these days that people have a low tolerance for crap. If you’re writing solely for yourself then fair enough, but if you’re publishing the work in any form then don’t immediately assume the reader will be on your side. The truth is that even when it comes to stories that are written well, I usually browse around a little before finding something to settle down with. So don’t start out by shooting yourself in the foot in making it easier for the reader to click away from your work.

I often find that the best story openings are ones that pose an immediate question. It doesn’t have to literally be a question, but it needs to make the reader want an answer to what’s going on. One of my favourite opening lines is from The Dresden Files series in the book Blood Rites. (Check out the whole series starting with Storm Front if you’re a fan of urban fantasy and you haven’t yet. They’re awesome.)

The building was on fire, and it wasn’t my fault.

Now, obviously that’s not phrased as a question but it immediately makes the reader wonder just what the hell is going on. There’s action right out of the gate and a present danger with the idea of a building being on fire. Then that follow up of it not being his fault? I love that. It tells you a lot about the character that he immediately presumes the reader would think he was the cause of the trouble. Even for people who’ve never heard of Harry Dresden, it conjures up an image of the kind of guy he is. There’s clearly an element of humour there too, and there’s nothing that makes me want to keep going with a story than an author who can make me smile right from the beginning.

Remember that the point is to hook your reader into the story and to start building momentum in going forward. If you really need to start out slowly then maybe consider a cold opening? Game of Thrones did this. Martin needed to start out by building up his extensive cast of characters and introducing the reader to his complex world. So, to make sure they were invested in what was going on he started off his story with the threat of ice zombies. This had the slightly tricky effect of making you want to read on in the hopes of finding out just what the fuck was going on with the frozen undead. Then, by the time you realised you’d spent a hundred pages reading about medieval politics and family feuds you were already invested.

So it doesn’t matter how you go about it, but remember that it’s the hook that’s important here.

Also, as a general rule check your first 10 paragraphs 10 times for spelling errors and silly mistakes. If I read your story and start finding fuck-ups there then that’s usually a good sign that you can’t be bothered self-editing and I go find someone who can. I’ve also seen stories where the first line contains blatant mistakes, and if that’s the case then you might as well not even bother writing up the rest of it.

Ok then, whilst I’m talking about how to open a story I think I’ll also mention author’s notes in this part. Let’s keep it simple.

Stuff you should put in your author’s note if you want to have one:

Thanks to editors and proofreaders are fine, and if you really want to dedicate your story to someone then go right ahead but keep it short. Let people know if your story falls into other categories if there’s a lot of crossover and you weren’t sure where to put it. If it’s your first story and you’re a bit nervous it’s ok to let your readers know that. The community here is quite supportive in that sense, although if you want more detailed feedback then use this forum instead. If you’re planning a first chapter where there isn’t much sex or something like that then you can also mention that. You also might want to make a note saying that all your characters in sexual situations are 18 or over if that isn’t made clear in the text.

Stuff you shouldn’t put in your author’s note:

Your autobiography. A 20 page explanation of why you wrote your story. A note about how it’s a story with deep meaning and not just mindless sex. Thanks to your proofreaders, if your proofreaders were your 17 cats. (Dogs, goldfish and hamsters are fine. I’m just not a cat person.) An extensive and irrelevant glossary of terms. Glossaries go at the end of stories, so if you really think you need one then you can tell your readers there is one at the end if you need to. These days, it’s probably better to try and explain the terms in the story as best you can anyway.

Generally speaking, if you really feel you have to have an author’s note then that’s fine but remember to keep it as short as you can. I also see a lot of new writers kind of making excuses for their story in their author’s notes. Don’t do that. Have confidence in your work and let it stand on its own merit. Don’t try to predict your reader reactions in advance because they probably won’t react the way you think.

Ok, so now I’m going to talk about the next big problem I normally see with new stories and mention the dreaded infodump. I’d say I’ve seen at least an element of this in over half of the stories I’ve reviewed on this thread. It’s also an area where I actually feel genuine sympathy for the writer who’s done it because at first infodumps seem like common sense.

For those of you that might not know, an infodump is usually a long chunk of text that aims to fill the reader in on the information they need to know before the writer starts telling the story. They’re particularly prominent in sci-fi and fantasy stories where they’ll probably spend even longer droning on about the history of the world. Although they do turn up in all shapes and sizes in many different kinds of story, so don’t think that if you’re not writing genre stuff that you’re automatically immune.

So what’s the problem with them then? The reader needs the background information after all, right? Well the problem, in case you didn’t notice, was right around here:

For those of you that might not know, an infodump is usually a long chunk of text that aims to fill the reader in on the information they need to know before the writer starts telling the story.

The point being that if you’re a storyteller who isn’t actually telling a damn story then something’s gone horribly wrong somewhere. Infodumps themselves aren’t usually part of the story. They’re big chunks of information we need to understand the story being told. I’ve seen writers go into full-on history textbook mode when they shift to an infodump and it reads fucking dreadfully.

I’ve often seen writers throw the hook really well in the first few paragraphs of the story and then utterly kill that momentum and interest by plopping down a huge infodump.

The first issue with this is that some writers forget that they’re a storyteller in these sections. Most new writers have only seen written history presented in history textbooks and that’s how they’ve learned stuff, so they unintentionally adopt the style. History textbooks aren’t written to entertain but to educate, and your priority should always be to entertain. This is a good reason to read actual history books aimed at a general audience rather than an academic one. Look at history documentaries and the way they’re presented, often building up things like drama and showing the characters motivations as well as what happened. This can help the way you present your information immensely. Although always remember that if you’re writing in the third person and you’re infodumping then you’ll probably always be writing passively rather than actively. So don’t get too carried away.

The second issue is again particularly symptomatic of an overenthusiastic sci-fi or fantasy writer and it’s a desire to show off. “Look at my world! Look at all the cool races and creatures that live in it! Let’s spend fifteen pages talking about the interesting lineage of this tertiary character who just sold my protagonist a goolaburger! Oooh! Let me give you the recipe for goolaburgers!” Again, this can come off in different ways in other kinds of writing so don’t overlook the issue. It’s just most commonly found in sci-fi and fantasy for obvious reasons. This is also a good reason to make the world to fit the story rather than spending a hundred hours world building and then trying to fit a plot into it.

So let’s look at how to treat infodumps. The first thing I’d advise is to look at what you’ve got and cut out the stuff that isn’t immediately relevant. Introducing characters and plotlines via infodumps is probably the worst way to do it. Instead, show me the characters talking and moving around in their world. If they come into contact with something that needs an explanation then explain what the reader needs to know as briefly as possible. Background information is like salt and spice. It can add depth of flavour to a story in small amounts sprinkled about evenly, but no one wants to chew on a huge block of it.

Also, dialogue is a great place to give out information because despite the information itself being passive (in that it’s already happened or it’s happening somewhere else in the story) we get the characters giving their active opinions and feelings about it. This can be used to flesh out your characters. They can joke about it, argue over it, fight on it, and most importantly they can express their personalities. In fact, if you're good at this then it can sometimes be a good idea to just have your characters "shoot the shit" about irrelevant happenings just to further characterize them. Just be aware that whilst dialogue holds this kind of thing much better than plonking it down in the general narrative, it can still be overloaded. It just has a higher saturation point. As I also stated, it holds an infodump better because of the other things you can fold in there. So make sure you’re folding those things in because I’ve seen plenty of writers try this approach only for their characters to start sounding like exposition-robots. First person narration can also have an easier time with this, largely for the same reasons as dialogue. You can show your narrator’s opinions on the matter and express their personality through them. Again, just don’t get carried away and make sure what you’re telling me is all relevant to what’s happening.

Ok, that’s my ramble over for today. Hope y’all found it helpful. Thanks to Bramblethorn for his excellent points about character planning. As usual, if anyone has anything to add or to argue with me about then feel free to sound off.

 

[Bramblethorn]

Third person is easier to deal with bigger stories involving a lot of characters. You also don’t have to spend as much time in your protagonist’s head, which can make you think more about the plot and the other characters. In erotica, it also has the advantage of being gender-neutral. I’ve found that as a straight dude I sometimes have difficulty reading first person erotic stories where the narrator is a woman. This isn’t remotely because I think there’s anything innately bad about female narrators, I just have more difficulty relating to them telling me about wanting to get nailed by Todd’s huge boner. Again, nothing against Todd, or his huge boner, but that’s just not something that I’d consider a pleasant experience.

I might call that "role-neutral", because it's not only about gender; third person also makes it easier for readers to choose whether to identify with the sadist or the masochist, the seducer or the seduced, etc. etc.

First person can be useful when you want to make a single character gender-neutral without being too obtrusive about it; being able to use "I" instead of having to find ways to dodge "he"/"she" is very useful.

The decision of what perspective to take is yours, but once you’ve picked it then always maintain it for the entirety of the story. Don’t switch around without a damn good reason to. Going from a general third person narrative to, for example, a discovered letter written in the first person is fine. Just don’t shift from one to the other at random because it’s a fucking huge distraction.

Additional to this: don't shift between "third person close" (limited to one character's perspective) and "third person distant/omniscient" (more info than any one character can witness) without due care and attention, because that also gets pretty jarring.

 

[Lien_Geller]

Right on the money!

There’s some good points again! In regards to making a character “role-neutral” just remember that the point of it is to appeal to the readers that you want to. If you’re writing a story aimed at women then don’t feel you have to be as neutral as possible about it. Same goes for writing a story for people with certain kinks. Finding a niche of readers is great, and incredibly rewarding. You also don't have to try to appeal to everyone, and writers who do that are destined for disappointment. Just be self-aware about it, and make sure you're not don’t accidentally excluding readers you don’t mean to!

 

[legerdemer]

If you have a chance and the inclination, you or others on the thread, I would appreciate some constructive skewering of my Winter Holidays story. In addition to general and overall feedback, I'd love to get feedback on some specific questions because I'd like to "finish" it with some expansion.

1) What do readers find missing from the story? What would you like to hear more about, if anything? Or less, for that matter.

2) Is it too sad? The sole commenter on the story so far found the characters sad (the title of his comment was Bittersweet, which is reasonable). Yet the story is meant to be headed on an upward trajectory, so perhaps that needs more work?

3) Is the title off-putting? I submitted it at the last moment for that context, and it's done well, but it has the least views of my stories (about 4100-some). I know I'm not hitting the majority trope for Winter Holidays here, but, well, y'all have friends that are... whatever, right? And it is no way religious. If you do find the title offputting and have suggestions, please go for it.


Anyway, it's a 5-pager in Romance: Hanukkah's Gifts. I hope it offers some enjoyable moments.

At your leisure... and with many thanks.

 

[Lien_Geller]

Hanukkah's Gifts

After sharpening my skewers, let’s take a hop, skip and a jump into legerdermer’s Hanukkah’s Gifts. I’ll do my usual rundown review as I read it and then address the questions you asked at the end.

I like your opening paragraph. It establishes a sympathetic introduction for your main character whose mother seems to be in dire straits. She also needs to tell her daughter something, which seems important and makes me want to keep reading to find out what’s going on. Nice one.

The emergency room had emptied out over the course of the evening, the traffic slowing down about 11 pm, as if the city conspired that 11 pm was some sort of civilized closing curtain time for accidents. The chair Simone Rosen sat in, next to her mother's bed, had become unbearably hard.

Those sentences both feel slightly clunky in the way you’ve worded them. Here’s me taking a shot at it:

The traffic in the emergency room had slowed down after 11pm, as if the city itself dropped the curtain on accidents at the turning of the hour. Next to her mother’s hospital bed, the chair Simone Rosen sat in had become unbearably hard.

There you go. All the info and the imagery I think you wanted in there and it’s a lot easier to read. Yours feels like you’re stopping in the middle of sentences to add bits here and there or you’re tacking on thoughts at the end. Make sure you get the flow of your sentence structures as smooth as possible so readers can digest your words easier.

I will note that in your last story I felt that you had trouble setting a scene properly and as a result you had immersion issues. You’ve improved on that score a lot. I feel like I’m actually getting planted in a scene properly here rather than just reading the cliff notes. Well done!

After she meets the guy at the desk, she goes to get a coffee and we get a great, stonking infodump whilst she does. Until the homeless guy asks her for some change it feels like nothing at all is happening in the story at all. It’s just her in her own head going over things that I just don’t care about. What if she’d maybe asked the guy over for a coffee on his break and decided to unload on him? Then we could get to know more about her and him, maybe show that he’s a good listener and such. Instead we just get the infodump and I found it really dull to get through. It’s just talking about her life and new characters I don’t know or care about. So far you’ve got me somewhat interested in her, her mother and the dude behind the desk. The interest isn’t anywhere near the point where it can sustain these multiple paragraphs of background info about people I couldn't care less about.

Right around the time she’s saved from the attempted mugging, you also shift from third person to first person:

"You OK?" My rescuer put his hand on my shoulder in a friendly, comforting gesture.

Then this actually made me laugh:

"I'm sorry, babe. She's had a good life, the old girl..."

Sounds like something someone would say when their friends hamster died. Dunno if that was the intention, since it seems that the guy saying it is supposed to be a bit dense rather than outright funny with it.

I did like the conversation in the bar between Simone and Martin after his show. It does a lot to invest me in their relationship as we actually see them getting to know each other properly. You’ve also done the proper legwork in establishing her situation that I don’t feel bad that she’s clearly not thinking about her significant other.

The sex worked a shed-load better than it did in your other story too. Building up their relationship and making Simone feel like an actual person rather than a blank slate really helped immensely in making the sex all the steamier. Your flair for descriptive writing has also gotten a lot better too.

Just a few things concerning word-usage:

That first time sliding into a woman, impaling her with his cock, was always delicious.

The word “delicious” there doesn’t make sense. Deliciousness is a word that describes taste, and unless he has taste buds on his dong it’s not really appropriate for the action he’s performing. You can get away with perhaps describing the sex organs as “delicious” as you could taste them even if that’s not what you’re currently up to. I just don’t think the word works in this context.

And he did what both of them wanted, his cock parting the cleft open, sliding into her impossible wetness, her tight cunt yielding its mystery to him.

*Twitch* Don’t start a sentence with the word “and” when you clearly don’t need to. I’m also not keen on the idea of “impossible wetness”. You could maybe get away with “impossible tightness” as it seems like he couldn’t possibly push himself in any further. Impossible wetness, though? I’d never feel the need to describe wetness as being impossible. There’s soaked or submerged, but that’s pretty much as far as it goes. Impossible wetness might occur if you found a puddle in the desert, but in an aroused woman it’s very possible. Again, just make sure you’re not getting too carried away and that your language is appropriate for what you’re getting across.

Blitzed through to the end and liked it overall. I’ll just hop on to your questions.

1) What do readers find missing from the story? What would you like to hear more about, if anything? Or less, for that matter.

I think you need to balance your descriptive writing with the active elements in your story a little better. You can get a wee bit carried away with it, and although it’s an area you’ve really improved with you need to get that balance right. You also need to pay more attention to how you word things in order for the story to flow better. I didn’t really find anything missing, and I think it checked all the boxes that it was trying to. That being said, I do think it got off to a bit of a slow start.

2) Is it too sad? The sole commenter on the story so far found the characters sad (the title of his comment was Bittersweet, which is reasonable). Yet the story is meant to be headed on an upward trajectory, so perhaps that needs more work?

I personally feel that a little bit of humour inserted here and there might also go a hell of a long way to improving this story. As you say, it’s a bit depressing at times despite it having a rather optimistic ending and an occasional laugh might relieve some of the issues you’re having there. I wouldn’t say it’s too sad overall, but it just gets laid on a little too thick in the beginning without any lighter moments where I can breathe. I love how you’ve handled dialogue better in this as well. In the last one you submitted for my inspection, I remember a very frustrating moment where you started writing a dialogue and then stopped to sum it up in the narrative instead. For the most part, your advancement in this aspect is impressive and I don’t want to discourage you but your characters do occasionally sound a little robotic. Humour helps immensely in humanizing characters, although it’s not always suitable for any situation. As I say though, don’t be put off by this because it’s something you get better at with practice. Also, saying “your characters occasionally sound a little robotic” isn’t saying “your characters sound like robots”. It never got so bad as I’ve sometimes seen wherein it seems like a couple of Daleks have rolled into the room. It’s just the occasional hint here and there.

3) Is the title off-putting? I submitted it at the last moment for that context, and it's done well, but it has the least views of my stories (about 4100-some). I know I'm not hitting the majority trope for Winter Holidays here, but, well, y'all have friends that are... whatever, right? And it is no way religious. If you do find the title offputting and have suggestions, please go for it.

I don’t think the title is off-putting so much as it’s a little misleading. It sort of conjures up images of a fun-filled romance story in my head and it’s more of a sombre drama that lifts to a more optimistic ending. Also, I don’t think that it focusing on a Jewish side of the holidays really hurt it at all. I actually like that about it. It’s different. I think it’s just like drinking coffee when you’re expecting tea instead. It’s not like I don’t like coffee, but it does make me think “what the hell’s wrong with this tea?” The answer is that nothing’s wrong with it, it’s just not quite what I was expecting.

Hope that was helpful! I did like this and it’s great to see how far you’ve come since the last story you asked me to review. Keep on chugging away and soon all you’ll have to get from me is the ability to bask in my adoration!

See? I can be nice too!

 

[legerdemer]

Blow me down, Lien, I really appreciate it! Yep, I did expect more skewering - still, there's plenty there for me to work on, you were quite thorough, and very useful. And I am blown away that, with all the stories you review, you remembered - thanks too for the permanence of electrons, but still. Anyway, glad to know I can learn from my mistakes. Whoohoo! See, I took you seriously (most everyone does, I'm sure - witness the Lien_Geller appreciation thread, to which I add my thanks, informally here, and formally, soon, there. And I owe you some feedback, I know.

One question for you specifically, but also for anyone else willing to tackle it, and it's a tricky one. In many of your observations I agree with you - the long sentence(s) with little bits going off left and right. However, to some extent, if different people write according to the same formula, they will end up sounding the same. (Not quite, but I hope you know what I mean.) I wonder about this line - and I know it's a decision I as a writer need to make, and it has to be one that doesn't penalize clarity or the readers.

I guess I'm asking for how others feel about this gray area of writing - the tension between their voice and more straightforward story telling. Clarity is foremost - style can't get in the way, and I get that your comments are telling me that at least sometimes, my style does get in the way. I value that feedback. But the originality in our voices needs to have some room as well. How much room?

Opinions?

 

[Bramblethorn]

The word “delicious” there doesn’t make sense. Deliciousness is a word that describes taste, and unless he has taste buds on his dong it’s not really appropriate for the action he’s performing. You can get away with perhaps describing the sex organs as “delicious” as you could taste them even if that’s not what you’re currently up to. I just don’t think the word works in this context.

"Delicious" often means "tasty", but it can also be used more generally for "delightful". Twain described New Orleans food as being "as delicious as the less criminal forms of sin", and "delicious irony" has become something of a cliché.

 

[NotWise]

I guess I'm asking for how others feel about this gray area of writing - the tension between their voice and more straightforward story telling. Clarity is foremost - style can't get in the way, and I get that your comments are telling me that at least sometimes, my style does get in the way. I value that feedback. But the originality in our voices needs to have some room as well. How much room?

Opinions?

There are a lot of things other than sentence structure that go into creating your unique voice. The mechanics of your writing may have more influence on the readability of the story than they do on creating (in a positive way, at least) a unique voice. There should still be enough leeway within the bounds of what is readable so that you can still express yourself in your own voice.

I use different kinds of sentences for different purpose; short and verb-heavy for action, longer and more descriptive most of the time, and sometime quite flowing to produce dreamy effects -- even intentionally repetitive sometimes. I think those variations should all be allowable, as long as the overall story remains readable.

From the point of view of reviewing someone else's story, I tend not to comment (other than positively) on things that I regard as style. I'm not an expert on style, and we all need our own.

I've been using online readability calculators to gage my writing. Most fiction tends to run around 5th grade level. Hemingway wrote at a 4th grade level. My Valentine's Day entry graded out at about the 6th grade level, but the readability was over 80 (good) and the site said "Should be easily readable by 11 and 12 year olds"

That made me shudder. It should NOT be.

You might run a few of your paragraphs through one of those calculators to gage whether you might have stepped over a readability line. My guess is that your grade level may come fairly high and the readability a little low because of the long, complex sentences.

 

[curl4ever]

"Delicious" often means "tasty", but it can also be used more generally for "delightful". Twain described New Orleans food as being "as delicious as the less criminal forms of sin", and "delicious irony" has become something of a cliché.

I agree with this. Also, I've heard that from psychological research, a whole additional part of the brain activates when food metaphors are used, so it might be worthwhile from that perspective as well.

- curl

 

[Lien_Geller]

Oops! My bad!

Fair point, guys! I was totally wrong about “delicious” being a word solely ascribed to taste. Although I still say that there are other words that would have worked better in that instance! That’s right, I’ve got my guns and I’m sticking to ‘em!

NotWise also pretty much nailed it with his points about style. I don’t think that you remotely have to sacrifice clarity at all in order to take on your own voice as a writer. I think in my example when I re-wrote your sentences I was trying to show you how much useless chaff you had that could be easily smoothed off. This led me to a minimalist sort of style in re-writing them. Of course, you don’t have to adopt a minimalist style in your writing but the rhythm and flow of the sentences need to work.

I know it’s a pain in the ass using words like “rhythm” and “flow” when describing this sort of thing because the terms are vague as all hell. It’s a trick that’s really difficult to teach how to do right, because you can be perfectly grammatically correct with horrifically shitty flow and rhythm. That being said, you can sure as shit spot it when a writer does it wrong and the words often become difficult to read. This also relates to what NotWise said about choosing different forms of sentences and formatting for different situations. The trick with getting the right rhythm and flow is to make sure that the reader is coming along for the ride with you. If the story is meant to slow down then longer sentences might be called for. Action-heavy scenes might need some shorter and more impactful ones. You can build tension with longer descriptive sentences and then drive home the twist with a short break before diving into something more action-oriented. The point is that you need to make sure your reader is reading at the pace you want them to. Clunky sentences nearly always destroy this aspect of storytelling, so it’s best to keep things as tight as possible.

I think that finding your own rhythm and flow is a big part of what allows you to discover your own style. I think the only way to really go about it is to write a lot and ask for a lot of feedback to find a nice middle ground between how you feel comfortable writing and what works best for your readers. That way you can get into the swing of things whilst spotting the little eccentricities that we all have which are better smoothed off in editing.

 

[tomlitilia]

OK, Lien, if you don't mind a LW story, perhaps you could offer some constructive feedback on this one?
https://www.literotica.com/s/testing-the-limits-2
The description "A husband says he isn't jealous and his wife tests his claim" kind of says what it's about.

In terms of what I'd like feedback on, it's mainly sentence structure. English is my second language, so it's possible I make annoying mistakes that I don't notice. But I'm happy for anny pointers that can improve my writing.

 

[Lien_Geller]

Testing the Limits

Here’s tomlitilia’s Testing the Limits, and what I thunk of it.

Starting off here I’ve gotta say you’re doing awfully well right off the starting line for someone who speaks English as a second language. In fact, you’re doing a hell of a lot better than quite a few people I’ve looked at on here who do speak English as a first language.

You dive right in to a dialogue, and it immediately works well to plant my attention with the characters and to set an active scene. I like that you learn about Oliver’s relationship troubles through the dialogue rather than recalling it through the narrative. The dialogue itself is handled extremely well, and again you pick up on a lot of the nuances of how people speak the language without sacrificing clarity which gets another big thumbs-up.

This might be an issue with the Loving Wives category, but my first real issue arises when they start talking about how John isn’t jealous. Marissa kind of comes of as a bit of an asshole here, because you haven’t set up John as being all that possessive and the things he mentions just make him seem reasonable. I kind of think that I’m supposed to be taking Marissa’s side here, but I’m thinking that she’s just being an ass. If you want me to sympathise with her, you need to establish how possessive John was (and maybe is) and how bad that was before she starts trying to get under his skin about it.

That being said, the teasing that follows is suitably hot. You do occasionally sound a little formal, especially in the dialogue, but it’s nothing too distracting. Stuff like this:

"I must admit that there seems to be some truth to your claim."

Feels like something a real-estate lawyer might say to a client in a business meeting rather than something a husband might say to his wife after she’s been teasing his friend. This isn’t something that’s inherent in all your dialogue as I’ve said, most of it’s fine. Just take care that you don’t accidentally shift the scene to something more akin to a Victorian novel about posh people arguing over land.

Then again, the scene that follows where they discuss how it turned her husband on kind of reads less like a real interaction and more like a Loving Wives kink checklist. She comes off as quite unlikable again, although this might be a part of the appeal. I’m not really a LW fan myself, so I dunno, but although she’s quite sexy I don’t think I really like Marissa all that much.

After that moment, things descend into becoming an all-out stroker. The sexual descriptions were great, but once again I don’t really have the LW kink so it didn’t hit the spot for me. That’s not your fault though, but I can’t criticise something I’m not going to enjoy no matter how well it’s written.

I will say that towards the end things did start to feel a little bit more generic, and again it felt a little more like you passing slogans from the kink playbook than any deep character interaction going on. As I said before, there’s nothing wrong with porn but there’s also not as much to say about it.

All that being said, your main concern was with the way you write and I can safely say that you write well. Sometimes you go a little too formal in your dialogue, but I didn’t see any annoying habits or turns of phrase. The only way you get better with that is by listening to people speak informally and finding that happy middle-ground between sounding genuine and having clarity.

Anyhoo, hope that was helpful for you and keep up the good work!

 

[tomlitilia]

Thanks for the encouraging comments Lien!
Other have also commented that they found Marissa rather bitchy. I was aiming more for flawed human in an attempt to move away from the concept of "perfect people fucking," but I guess I could have balanced it better.

As for the porn, well... When the readers get to page 4, I think they deserve bit of no holds barred sex.
I make no claim to writing anything other than porn (or strokers?), but the tricky part is getting to it gradually so that it doesn't come off as vulgar when it happens.

But I take all your comments on board. Thanks again for your thoughts!

 

[Hypoxia]

Might I request you look at The Botanists? This is a historical (ca.1890) romance about actual people. I warn up-front of casual racism and almost no explicit sex. The negative comments complain of... racism and insufficient sex. Go figure. At least nobody has bitched (yet) at the scientific nomenclature. I really do love Larrea tridentata.

 

[Lien_Geller]

Hi there! Here goes my run at Entertaining at Home by Touch_type. He requested a review by PM but said it's cool that I post it up here too.

I sighed a satisfied sigh and rested my hands on my hips above the waist band of my jogging pants as I looked down at the black plastic bin liners which filled at least half of the spare room.

That is a dull opening line. This is where you’re supposed to throw the hook, and get me immersed and interested in what’s going on. I get a woman satisfied upon regarding bin liners? You can do better than that. The sentence is also a bit too long. Do I really need to know where exactly her hands are on her hips? “Sighed a satisfied sigh” also feels a little amateurish.

With a sigh of satisfaction, I settled my hands on my hips and looked over the many tightly-packed bin liners now filling up half of my spare room.

I think that gets across everything that’s important to the sentence and it’s a lot shorter and easier to digest. Keep things tight and focused.

The house was beginning to feel as if it was, at last, mine alone.

This is a pet peeve of mine, but that feels like you’ve clipped the end of the sentence to put it in the middle instead.

The house was beginning to feel as if it was mine alone at last.

That works just as well and now you don’t need two commas in there. I understand that sometimes this form of sentence structure can’t be helped, but always be wary of commas. Any sentence with more than one can read as being quite choppy. If you need them there? Totally fine. If you don’t? Get rid of them.

I smiled - you can talk to yourself when here is no one in the house - and wiped my hands on the T-shirt I had put on to do the cleaning.

That’s just annoying to me. Again, don’t plant different thoughts in the middle of sentences unless it’s badly needed. It’s not needed at all here and the sentence structure feels just dreadful.

Then you go into building up the tension of her finding the condom and bursting into her ex-husband’s room before launching into an excessive infodump about their past. It just pulls the rug out of all that tension you’d built up and deflates the drama considerably. Infodumps are always difficult to navigate, but you could have folded it into the narrative in more bite-sized chunks. Maybe have had them both argue and revealed the necessary info through that dialogue?

I’m also noticing by the end of it that your character doesn’t have much personality yet. She’s the product of a failed marriage. That’s it. There’s no other spark of life to her other than what the plot requires. I don’t even know how she looks, so I can’t get any clear image of her in my head. I haven’t heard her directly speak because there hasn’t been much dialogue so far. This leaves her as being very fuzzy to me, and only existing inside the points of her plot. Since you’ve also described her as someone who was cheating on her husband, I’m not put in her corner or invested in her problems. There’s no empathy, and no real interest in who she is or what she’s up to.

Things do take a turn for the better when she talks to Steve and he asks her to join them. It feels more active, and I’m getting to see both characters in an active situation really for the first time. Steve comes across as being likable, even though he’s clearly a doofus and you do lay that on a little thick. His actions show an attraction between them and help me sympathize with him. It’d have been nice to maybe show some of the physical attraction between them too, but what you’ve got here is good.

Again though, when she pulls out the DVD and starts reminiscing I zoned out. I should say at this point that gang-bangs aren’t really my kink. Well, not when it’s a bunch of dudes and a woman at least. A bunch of women and a dude? That’s a different story. Anyhoo, just letting you know that some of my lackluster enthusiasm might be caused by that. The habit of going into her history just isn’t fun for me though. It’s not as if you’re describing a particularly kinky story. I mean she describes anal sex as blandly as possible. It hurt so I decided to make him use lubricant? Not sexy. Not sure why it’s even there. Then there’s a passive tone throughout the whole thing and again I’m left hearing about past events without really feeling as if I’m getting to know more about her at all. At this point in the story, I honestly couldn’t even tell you her name. That’s not a good thing at all.

There’s also a lot of animosity toward Jason and Dave here, but again I’m not actually feeling that. Jason is such a moron that he feels more absurd than genuinely malevolent. When he mentions the gang-bang, I just found it kind of funny that someone would be so idiotic as to bring it up like that. I felt more like she should have laughed at him rather than starting to cry her eyes out. Dave himself seems to be the antagonist, and constantly gets referred to throughout. But the problem is that he’s a non-presence in the story. We never actually see or meet him so that the reader can form their own opinion. All we get are these passive reminiscences and constant references to how much of an ass he is. Without actually meeting him, this doesn’t land the way you want it to and the constant focus on him and his actions detracts from the story. You could have remedied this by focusing on other areas, or by showing how she feels about it rather than just giving me the history. I don’t get the impression that this woman is devastated at all because you’re not establishing her mindset well enough.

The idea of a bunch of dudes banging their best friend’s ex-wife is also not exactly the stuff of high-drama. I mean, you don’t really seem all that interested in forging deep character relationships here as most of the back 3 pages is focused on balls-to-the-wall sex. I’m not looking down on you for this at all. If you want to write porn, then shine on you crazy diamond. I’d just personally have gone for a lighter tone with it all.

I’ve read through to the end and the sex is serviceably written. I’d say to remember that there’s more than just the one sense and to focus on the moment rather than summing stuff up. Rather than telling me that she sucked a lot of dick, actually try to describe the sensation’s she feels as she pleasures one man after another and how it’s different from what she’s used to. Let me feel how much she’s enjoying herself by describing the intricate little details of things she enjoys. Don’t go too overboard with it, but the devil’s in the details and I’m seeing a lack of that attention to detail here.

There’s also the issue of mild-mannered housewife to porn star. Usually this happens because the author gets too enthusiastic in writing the sex, but your protagonist’s lack of characterization makes this issue felt much more deeply in your story. Her behavior is at first quite meek and conservative and then she gets drunk and goes dick crazy? You need to establish the motivation better. From what you’ve got here I could imagine her taking Steve upstairs and fucking the daylights out of him, but doing a few random strangers along the way just feels oddly out of character. Especially after her practically breaking down at the suggestion she’d be a part of a gang-bang.

All that being said, this isn’t a bad first attempt by any stretch of the imagination. There’s one or two technical issues in your writing that an editor could help you out with, and if you want to get better then finding a good editor (or twenty) is very useful in developing your skill for a wider audience. That being said, make sure you’re comfortable with your editor and beware of the phrase “I’m more of an ideas man/woman” because that usually means they have no damn clue about writing but want someone to write stories they’re too fucking lazy to attempt themselves. Find someone who can criticize you in a way that you think is fair, and who you get on well with, and who has an eye for technical mistakes.

The stuff I’ve called you out on here like a lack of characterization isn’t stuff that’s part of the basics. Getting that shit right and balanced well is fucking hard. So don’t go beating yourself up over it too much, but make sure you try to find one or two ways to improve the next time. Keep at the grind, and you’ll be fine. You’ve obviously got the enthusiasm, you just need more finesse when it comes to the details.

Hope this was helpful!

 

[Lien_Geller]

The Botanists: An Adventure

After that slight intermission, let’s take a look at Hypoxia’s The Botanists: An Adventure and see what I can complain about.

Let’s start off with the title. I don’t really see why you need to tell me it’s an adventure unless you’re mimicking a style or something. If it was a bit more detailed, I’d be on board. The Botanists: An Erotic Adventure, or something like that. Then there’s more of a contrast of expectations since you don’t normally associate erotic adventures with botanists. No offense there to any botanists reading this. I’m sure you all let your freak flag fly just as much as anyone else. It’s just not a profession that jumps into your head when you think of eroticism. I’d have extended it a little, or just left it at The Botanists. Anyway, well done there for (I think) being the first person whose title I could find something to complain about.

I actually like your author’s note though. A few potential turn-offs, a disclaimer and a thanks to your editor. Short, sharp and to the point.

Your opening line might have immediately put me off, but I’ll put that down to personal taste. (I hate it when people get over-enthusiastic in writing accents.) Although that being said the following paragraph does soften it. Your writing style also seems to emulate classical writers of that age. You do it well in your opening paragraphs but I also happen to loathe that particular style of writing. It sends me to sleep. Again, not trying to hate on you here but just listing my personal gripes so you know in case they rub off on anything else I comment on.

T.S. leaned against a warm brick wall at California and Dupont Streets -- the latter to be renamed for his former commander and gain fame as Grant Avenue in a future era's Chinatown -- and viewed the passing scene.

That kind of annoys me a bit. If you’re going for descriptive writing then you should aim to immerse me in what’s going on in the story. Here, you interrupt that to casually give a historical reference and mention how the place where he’s stood will one day become Chinatown. I don’t have a clue about the place you’re talking about, but I do know a little about Chinatown and now that’s the imagery I’ve got stuck in my head. It’s unnecessary and distracting. If you’re writing historical fiction then stay in the contemporary and don’t zoom into the future unless it’s relevant.

Whoa there, fella (or possibly fellette). Bet I know what you’re thinking now, eh? “Lien, if you found that annoying then wait till you get to the bit where I completely stop the fucking story to give a paragraph lecturing the reader about American whores in the late 19th century!” Well, if you were thinking that then you’d be right. What the fuck is that doing there? It’s like an immersion nuclear explosion. I’m blasted out of the story not only to be given textbook information but to be asked to consider the plight of 19th century prostitutes? WHY!?

T.S. and Hiram dodged careening humans, horses, and wagons to cross the riotous intersection. The door into the Academy's great Museum and Hall awaited them. Hiram ushered the applicant into a smoke-filled upholstered meeting room; the heavy black-oak door swung closed on his departing back.

Nothing to complain about here. I just really liked that paragraph. Great imagery, interesting word-usage and a wonderful sense of movement in the story. Nice. I also actually quite like the depth you give to the history you recount in the story. You characterize very well, with good descriptive writing and a sense of your protagonist’s attitudes that really fleshes out what could otherwise be a bland infodump. In fact, this is why the other two recently aforementioned issues piss me off. They detract from the imagery and the world you’re setting me in and make you sound less like a storyteller and more like an over-eager historian. That’s annoying in its own right, but it’s much more annoying when it’s coming from a fucking good storyteller!

Most medicines then derived from natural plants. Medical studies included a heavy dose of botany. Even after receiving her M.D. degree, M.K. leaned more towards the botanical than the medical. Plants became her learned obsession.

I usually call out people for smacking infodumps in their stories, especially when it comes to recounting history (fictional or otherwise). You do it really well here. I think the sort of Victorian-era voice that the narrative is framed in helps a little, but it’s more than that. This is something I mentioned earlier about advising writers to look at the way historical documentaries are portrayed and dramatised and infusing that tone when recounting their own history in stories. It’s interesting. In the paragraph above, it doesn’t just explain to me about plants but about the character’s motivation and drive as well as giving me a character merit in her obvious intelligence.

You balance this well, too. Just as I’m about to drift away as one of your protagonists recount history you then give the story a more active tone. This is something I’ve seen professional writers struggle with and you’re making it look like a cake-walk. Nice.

Although, now my gushing must unfortunately be clamped off for the time being as I draw your attention to this sentence:

M.K. had not had a man in her since the crapulous constable Curran croaked.

I’m not against alliteration as a rule, but using it like that kind of makes your writing sound like something out of a children’s book. When I say children’s book, I’m inclining more toward The Hungry Caterpillar rather than The Lion, The Witch, And The Wardrobe.

Her chemical elements threatened to vaporize under the steady gaze T.S. aimed at her.

This isn’t a complaint so much, but when I read this after she talked about having chemistry with other men I kind of thought that you meant she had no chemistry with T.S. either. I know that vaporizing things usually happens after they’ve rapidly heated up, but vaporize also kind of means to disappear in certain contexts. If I hear something’s been vaporized, the first think I think of is that it’s been destroyed, if you see my point.

Later generations would call this a first date.

Again, I just find that disillusioning. If someone’s travelled back in time or something, then ok by all means keep future references in your story. Just don’t stick them in where they don’t really have a place.

I also found M.K.’s reaction to T.S. a bit over the top. This is a woman who’s very clever, presumably well-travelled in a man’s world, and who’s turned away many suitors. So unless T.S. is the second coming of Adonis, her utterly flustered reaction to him and direct horniness is a bit out of place. I’m not saying she can’t have a bit of a blush here and there and display her attraction, but at times it seems like she has trouble getting words out due to his raw, sexual magnetism. If she knew more about him and displayed more of an interest I might buy it, but here it just seems to come out of nowhere.

That being said, I do like the shifts from one character to the other. You write both of them distinctly enough, and that’s not as easy as it looks here. I also liked T.S.’s gift. I fucking hate it when writers write out attraction but don’t really show any connection between two characters. It leaves me feeling like “sure, they’ll fuck, but I don’t see a happy ending there at all”. A lot of T.V. writers have issues with this when they write will they/won’t they storylines. When they finally do put the characters together, they realise they have nothing in common and can’t write a relationship properly. Ross/Rachel and Penny/Leonard are probably the most obvious examples of this. The gift T.S. gives shows that they do have a connection and shared passions rather than just passion for each other. That’s pretty cool!

When they go on their expedition you do get a bit flowery with the… er… flowers. Do I really need to know all these names and do you really need to tell me what they are in brackets? I don’t care about botany at all. I can’t picture them in my head at all and you do go on a bit about them. I understand you’re trying to establish their passion in botany but this is the first time I’ve come across you overdoing it. I think the execution is annoying too. A scientific name followed by an explanation from you in brackets? Again, you’re breaking out the disillusionment missiles.

I loved his comment about how he thinks about her every way he can. It made me laugh and I found it endearing after their rather formal courtship until that point.

I zipped to the ending from then on. I enjoyed the sort of naturalist take on their sex-life and how you maintained the tone of the story without devolving it into anything too sordid.

Overall, I did like it despite it not really being something I’d normally look over. It’s very well written with those few glaring incidents of you seemingly breaking the fourth wall that annoyed the crap out of me. The characterisation was very rich, the plot was a bit abstract, especially toward the end, but it worked with what you were doing. You write historical fiction very well, and you maintained the tone you started out with damn-near flawlessly throughout. Oh, and that classical tone I said I hated? I usually dislike it because it tends to focus on being flourishy and impressive rather than being clear and easy to read. You did both, so consider those earlier words of mine eaten with a side of humble-pie.

Definitely don’t be put off by anything I’ve pointed out here, I laid into you more than I perhaps should have because when you write something this well the flaws stick out more. I hope this was helpful, and despite my complaints you got 5* from me anyway.

 

[Hypoxia]

Thanks for the review and the praise! I'll respond to the complaints.

Let’s start off with the title. I don’t really see why you need to tell me it’s an adventure unless you’re mimicking a style or something.

Yes, that, but also because I have sequels planned, standalone episodes I don't wish burdened with chapter numbers. Next comes The Botanists: Berkeley Blues, then The Botanists: California Dreaming. Hint: Other botanists besides the Brandegees may be main characters.

If you’re going for descriptive writing then you should aim to immerse me in what’s going on in the story. Here, you interrupt that to casually give a historical reference and mention how the place where he’s stood will one day become Chinatown. I don’t have a clue about the place you’re talking about, but I do know a little about Chinatown and now that’s the imagery I’ve got stuck in my head.

*You* might have no clue, but a few zillion visitors (some of whom may be LIT readers) have been there and can maybe visualize old-West images superimposed on the topography. I can hope.

Whoa there, fella (or possibly fellette). Bet I know what you’re thinking now, eh? “Lien, if you found that annoying then wait till you get to the bit where I completely stop the fucking story to give a paragraph lecturing the reader about American whores in the late 19th century!”

Yeah, I do tend to bust the fourth wall and interrupt narrative flows. That is deliberate. I *want* readers to pause and ponder. It's the propagandist in me.

You characterize very well, with good descriptive writing and a sense of your protagonist’s attitudes that really fleshes out what could otherwise be a bland infodump.

Historical writing requires much infodumping. The past *IS* as different world. Many of my stories are set in a more recent past that is just as foreign to many modern readers. I think I've worked out how to leaven the info, to personalize the dump, by weaving it into memories and conversations, interrupted by current events.

I’m not against alliteration as a rule, but using it like that kind of makes your writing sound like something out of a children’s book. When I say children’s book, I’m inclining more toward The Hungry Caterpillar rather than The Lion, The Witch, And The Wardrobe.

Cuteness sometimes seizes my mind. So sue me. (At least there are no lolcats.)

I also found M.K.’s reaction to T.S. a bit over the top. This is a woman who’s very clever, presumably well-travelled in a man’s world, and who’s turned away many suitors. So unless T.S. is the second coming of Adonis, her utterly flustered reaction to him and direct horniness is a bit out of place.

This was a big problem. The lives of T.S. and M.K. are well documented -- but not their meeting. I didn't have a good model for their encounter and I didn't want to take an extra year (and 1/2 LIT page or more) building their relationship. So I merely invoked magic, chemistry, shazam.

When they go on their expedition you do get a bit flowery with the… er… flowers. Do I really need to know all these names and do you really need to tell me what they are in brackets? I don’t care about botany at all. I can’t picture them in my head at all and you do go on a bit about them.

Many highly-rated LIT authors include details of automobile mechanisms incomprehensible to outsiders (search on MUSTANG) or sports minutiae or military terminology or foreign topography, as do mainstream authors. In Big Banana I briefly bludgeon readers with details of a 1930 folding camera. That's my privilege as an author, to confound outsiders.

You write historical fiction very well, and you maintained the tone you started out with damn-near flawlessly throughout.... despite my complaints you got 5* from me anyway.

Thank you very kindly, sir. I wrote this coincidentally with a piece set in the same era but otherwise quite different -- much sexier and snarkier. You might want to turn your gaze to 'Neath Western Skies, Ma!

--Hypoxia [gasp!]

 

[Lien_Geller]

Don't make me cranky. You wouldn't like me when I'm cran- Oooooh! Chocolate! BRB.

Ok, first off, you don’t respond to my complaints. If you do, then response you’re looking for sure as hell isn’t: “I'll respond to the complaints.” Instead, what you’re after is more along the lines of: “Thank you, sir. Please may I have another?”

But (not so) seriously folks, let’s check out some of these.

Yes, that, but also because I have sequels planned, standalone episodes I don't wish burdened with chapter numbers. Next comes The Botanists: Berkeley Blues, then The Botanists: California Dreaming. Hint: Other botanists besides the Brandegees may be main characters.

Well fuckity-doo-dah! Y’know what I forgot to do? I forgot to hop in a time machine and check all your future stories to make sure your title made sense! Please, feel free to complain about that whilst I figure out how to bend the laws of time and space. Does anyone have Peter Capaldi’s phone number?

*You* might have no clue, but a few zillion visitors (some of whom may be LIT readers) have been there and can maybe visualize old-West images superimposed on the topography. I can hope.

If that’s your response then you’ve missed the reason why I mentioned it in the first place. It’s an unnecessary interruption in the scene you’re building. Modern-day Chinatown has absolutely no place at all in this story, so why the hell would you mention it? It’s distracting. If it’s distracting then it breaks immersion, and damn it no one breaks my immersion! It’s like mentioning how a harrier jump-jet might one day fly over the battlefield when telling the story of the battle of Agincourt. It’s not that you’re wrong, it’s that you’re being ridiculously irrelevant.

Yeah, I do tend to bust the fourth wall and interrupt narrative flows. That is deliberate. I *want* readers to pause and ponder. It's the propagandist in me.

Well go right ahead and shine on you crazy diamond. I occasionally *want* to climb onto my roof and urinate from a great height on my next door neighbour's yippy dog that never shuts up, but there’s a reason that I don’t. Much.

Interrupting story flow is not a good idea unless it’s done with exceptional cleverness (which yours isn’t). Therefore I’d suggest you take your inner propagandist and place them inside your inner wood-chipper.

Historical writing requires much infodumping. The past *IS* as different world. Many of my stories are set in a more recent past that is just as foreign to many modern readers. I think I've worked out how to leaven the info, to personalize the dump, by weaving it into memories and conversations, interrupted by current events.

Right, you little… Hey! Wait a minute! That wasn’t even a complaint! I was complimenting you on how you handled it!

Cuteness sometimes seizes my mind. So sue me. (At least there are no lolcats.)

The litigation papers are already in the mail. Also, everything is better with lolcats.

This was a big problem. The lives of T.S. and M.K. are well documented -- but not their meeting. I didn't have a good model for their encounter and I didn't want to take an extra year (and 1/2 LIT page or more) building their relationship. So I merely invoked magic, chemistry, shazam.

Yeah, to be fair this was a relatively minor thing. It’s just that it stood out in a story that was otherwise very well grounded. The tone shifted to one of more fantastical romanticism that I found slightly odd. Building up the character relationship would have been good, but then again you did more for that with the gift of a plant than most writers manage with 20 pages. So it wasn’t a big complaint.

...

What? I can be serious. Occasionally.

Many highly-rated LIT authors include details of automobile mechanisms incomprehensible to outsiders (search on MUSTANG) or sports minutiae or military terminology or foreign topography, as do mainstream authors. In Big Banana I briefly bludgeon readers with details of a 1930 folding camera. That's my privilege as an author, to confound outsiders.

Well, to paraphrase a great animated robot, many highly-rated LIT authors can bite my shiny, metal ass. If you want their opinion, I suggest you ask for feedback on the “Many Highly-Rated LIT Authors Review Thread” because here you only get the opinion of one highly rated LIT author. (Oooh, look at me go tootin’ my own horn there!)

…And maybe Bramblethorn. Ok, so two highly rated LIT (Why are we capitalising all the words to that again?) authors! One who may or may not agree with me! Oh, and curl4ever as well. Shit, there’s NaokoSmith too! Wait, no, she has her own thread these days. Oh well, you get the idea!

Although I would replace the words “confound outsiders” with “alienate readers”, but what the hell! You go right ahead and take all the privileges you want, you special little moonbeam!

I'd also like to take a moment now to thank my delicate and grossly over-inflated ego, as well as a lifetime's worth of caustic sarcasm and a weird-ass sense of humor without which this post wouldn't have been possible.

 

[Asbel]

Hey Lien.
Just dropping by, I've been reading the thread and would love to hear what you think of my story...

But it's eighteen chapters so far and it's not done. It was supposed to be a novella and now it's a novel.

I'm just not getting the feedback I need, because tons of people have been telling me to seek a publisher and I just don't know if that's a good idea. I've never been nominated for anything, nver won any awards, never gotten any sort of "recognition", but my ratings are fair and I've never gotten any bad feedback, which I still can't believe - I know everyone gets horrible, grating anonymous feedback telling them to go kill themselves. Right...?

I don't know. If you feel like reading some, please go ahead. That's an invitation to everyone, but keep in mind, it's supposed to be an entire book, so it's a slow buildup to a huge payoff and intended to be a bit of a rollercoaster, with a few chapters completely devoid of sexual content altogether.

... I guess.

 

[Lien_Geller]

Sorry, Asbel!

Hey there! Sorry, mate. I don't read Gay Male stories. Nothing against 'em, but as a straight dude they're just not my cup of tea. Check the first post of this thread to see what I'll review for ya. If you've got a story more along those lines then feel free to drop by. Until then, happy writing!

 

[Asbel]

What, really? Bizarre. The gay isn't even the focus. My story ideas just don't work with female characters in 'em.

But fair enough, I guess. As an extremely sexually open person, I never really think about the fact that most people get sick when you mention two dudes in a bed.

 

[Ewobbit]

Heyla, Lien.

First, I would just like to say that anyone that quotes Jim Butcher's awesome opening line can't suck too terribly much diseased moose wang.

Second, thanks for doing this. Sort of sad I don't feel like I can take full advantage as some light dominance/submission does make a brief appearance in my piece (although I stick to my assertion that neither Bondage nor S&M does). But, I've found lots of things mixed in amongst the reviews here and expositions on writing that, together with the reviews from my own thread, I will hope make my next one suck a little less.

However, I do have a question I would like to toss in the hopper if I might be so bold. You covered characterization pretty darn well. But, let's go to the opposite end of the spectrum.

Let's say that I... *cough*... I mean someone I know is working out the kinks in a piece that is light on dialogue. No, really light on dialogue. No, actually both protagonists are damn near mute. The first person narrator does some inner-dialogue to make up for it, but the primary characterizations of the secondary are through the primary's observations.

At what point do you switch off and say "Hey! More people should be able to read this than just Ph.D.s in Psychology with a specialization in non-verbal diagnostics"?

 

[Lien_Geller]

Asbel and Ewobbit

Asbel: I am a dude on an internet forum who writes semi-jokey reviews in order to read more stories, maybe help out another writer, and learn something for myself along the way.

I’m not a fucking public service. There is no complaints department.

As “bizarre” as it might be to you, everyone’s got their tastes and mine don’t happen to go in that direction. I don’t think there’s anything remotely wrong with that direction. I once sat in a living room playing video games whilst I’m pretty sure my friend gave my other buddy a big hand in that direction in an upstairs bedroom. Didn’t even stop me levelling up. (No, that’s not a euphemism.)

That being said, it’s just not my personal idea of a good time. Just like I won’t watch a SAW movie, the TV series Breaking Bad (“ZOMG WTF! You don’t like Breaking Bad?” No, I think it’s slow and boring. Get over it,) or a rom-com from Matthew McConaughey’s pre-awesome period. I’m not here to judge people who like that stuff, but I’m not going to sit through it and churn out an essay on the subject on something I don’t find appealing without someone paying me a shitload of money (and possibly a lot of asprin) along the way.

Still, thanks for suggesting that I get sick at the mere concept of two dudes in a bed. Because me not wanting to read gay erotica really makes me that fucking guy.

Ewobbit: Hey! You’re right. I try not to suck too much diseased moose wang. Sometimes I overindulge but four a day is really my limit.

As to your question? First off, please don’t ever write this sentence again:

The first person narrator does some inner-dialogue to make up for it, but the primary characterizations of the secondary are through the primary's observations.

I mean, there’s nothing really wrong with it but for some reason it nearly made my fucking head explode. It’s like perspectiveception or something. Anyhoo, after calling all the king’s horses and all the king’s men, let’s get you an answer!

Firstly, the reason I often point to dialogue as a good place to bring things off like characterisation and infodumping is because it’s nearly always an active interaction. Active interactions aren’t only found in dialogue, but it’s a good place to start for a writer that has an overly passive style. So if you’re writing something without dialogue then I’d think about the active interactions in your story and pay more attention to maintaining an active narrative. These interactions can be with plot elements and the characters can certainly interact with each other in different ways to dialogue. I’d just avoid constantly escaping into your characters head to reflect for 5 pages before they actually do something and again start reflecting on it for 5 more pages.

Do the characters communicate? Do they come into some sort of conflict? Of course, there’s always body language and expression which can convey a hell of a lot.

The reason I go on so much about dialogue is because it’s fucking tricky to deal with and it’s probably one of the first big hurdles that most writers come across. It’s also tremendously worthwhile to learn how to do it well, because of the aforementioned benefits it can give any story. However, it’s not mandatory and if your characters are mute (or in a situation where they can’t speak) then it’s perfectly fine to side-step it and work with what you’ve got. You’ll exercise other muscles in trying to pull it off, and as long as you’re trying to make your story better and learn more along the way you won’t go too far wrong. Apologies if I seemed to indicate otherwise and remember the first rule of storytelling club.

Hope that was a good enough answer for you, and if it wasn't then feel free to explain why not and ask for a better one.

 

[Asbel]

Woah, woah, woah, man. That was NOT supposed to be a complaint or me ragging on you. I genuinely forget that gay sex is weird for most people.

You really think I believe you OWE it to me to read my stuff? Good god, you're taking on plenty. Figured I'd try my hand. Got rejected. So what?
Shit happens. That being said, I didn't really think about how difficult it's going to be for me to get any decent feedback whatsoever from a good author on this website. Didn't take into consideration that no one worth their salt will read gay male.

I mean it, thanks for the consideration, and I'm sorry that you thought I was bashing you. I regret to say I barely realize that I come off that way and it's a serious problem.

Good luck on your future efforts.