Love this "50 Shades" article.

[catalina_francisco]

Also, I'd love to see that interview you mentioned. Sounds like a laugh.

LOL, not near as funny as the one where I saw someone state that they thought having (vanilla) sex more than once a week was really extreme....and everyone else agreeing with them....and they all wanted to be, and thought they resembled the sexually adventurousness of the characters in SOG!! Sheesh, these people only have themselves to blame for a boring (sex)life!! It is these type of people I think who have found SOG so exciting....let's face it, anything would appear exciting after looking at their own.

Catalina

 

[Cattypuss]

This was the day that she met her future husband -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DlUb8jt0WP0

 

[missgiter]

I understand why people in the scene are sensitive about portrayals, but the point is unless someone is a complete idiot or comes from the state of Texas (No critical reasoning skills shall be taught in the schools) it is pretty obvious the book is not denigrating BD/SM.

Maybe then you don't -really- understand why BDSM "people" are sensitive about portrayals, then? I mean, if you think the point is useless "unless someone is a complete idiot". But wouldn't just about anybody who doesn't really understand BDSM fall under this category? I mean, of course we're sensitive about it! It's always held in a bad light!

I was glad to read the article. Happy to see a new perspective on the books. I mean, they weren't terrible - a little bit more saucy than regular series romance, but BDSM was painted badly in the set. It was tied directly to being mentally unstable. Everybody who was into BDSM in this book was portrayed as mentally unstable. From Christian's Domme, Christian himself including one of his ex-subs. *shrugs*

Anywho, there's my two-cents.

 

[Kurokami]

LOL, not near as funny as the one where I saw someone state that they thought having (vanilla) sex more than once a week was really extreme....and everyone else agreeing with them....and they all wanted to be, and thought they resembled the sexually adventurousness of the characters in SOG!! Sheesh, these people only have themselves to blame for a boring (sex)life!! It is these type of people I think who have found SOG so exciting....let's face it, anything would appear exciting after looking at their own.

Catalina

Sometimes I forget that people on the outside of my kink circle tend to have much, much narrower views on sex than I do. This is a perfect example of that; what Christian does bores me to near catatonia, but to a more normal person... Wow!

Meanwhile, here I am having to pretend that it's perverse and strange when my mother started talking about maybe picking it up. Because I am not ready to have that conversation with her.

 

[Stella_Omega]

LOL, not near as funny as the one where I saw someone state that they thought having (vanilla) sex more than once a week was really extreme....and everyone else agreeing with them....and they all wanted to be, and thought they resembled the sexually adventurousness of the characters in SOG!! Sheesh, these people only have themselves to blame for a boring (sex)life!! It is these type of people I think who have found SOG so exciting....let's face it, anything would appear exciting after looking at their own.

Catalina

It's funny to you, and to me, but you know what? Those people get just as much excitement out of the sex that they do have, as you get out of the sex that you have.

Some things are not a contest. Sex is one of those things.

 

[catalina_francisco]

It's funny to you, and to me, but you know what? Those people get just as much excitement out of the sex that they do have, as you get out of the sex that you have.

Some things are not a contest. Sex is one of those things.

Stella, with all due respect, don't try and pigeon hole me into being a judgemental idiot, or to know how and what I was thinking and why. I am not someone who is into competing and contests, hence I don't usually get overly upset if someone doesn't particularly like me or what I do (and why I do not like public scening etc., which seems to be full of people trying to impress and show off to each other), nor do I feel compelled to jump on every advise thread to point people to FetLife, munches etc., simply because I figure everyone does have their own thing and are better discovering it for themselves instead of going to meet a bunch of strangers to help them out when they wouldn't have a clue what works for them. I do however admit to having a sore point about people thinking they know my thoughts which dates back to events in my life 30 years or so ago which changed my and my children's lives forever.

These folk were the ones who actually said their sex life was boring (not me) and that they had always found sex boring and just something you do out of obligation and/or guilt..and then admitted they really weren't turned on by the new things they were doing because of SOG either, just they did it because they felt it was different and naughty...and IMO unspoken, because they were sheep jumping on a bandwagon someone else put in motion and it made them feel left out if they didn't go along for the ride. I imagine that knowing humnan nature, this is why a lot of people are fans of these books...it is the new in thing to be. They were also the ones who volunteered to be interviewed, and who have set themselves up as experts in BDSM open to advising others on the how, why and whens of it all and were quite vocal about telling everyone in the interview what BDSM is all about. They also added that BDSM is all role play (not just their opinion, fact as far as they are concerned), and people who take it seriously and beyond role play games are to be avoided as they are obviously not healthy or safe to be around. Go figure. YMMD, but for me, they are the ones to avoid and the ones who feel it is a competition of sorts.

Catalina

 

[Stella_Omega]

that's a whole lot of things that you did not say in the post I responded to, such as the way they all said they had become BDSM experts, and the way they said that sex was still boring.

Let me remind you that the books sold MILLIONS by word of mouth, long before this hooplah got started.

I figure everyone does have their own thing and are better discovering it for themselves instead of going to meet a bunch of strangers to help them out when they wouldn't have a clue what works for them

Different people learn differently. Some people learn by immersion.

I ran into a few people back in the day, who would not give me advice and left me to reinvent the wheel all on my own, --and may they all rot in the hell I do not believe in. All I got from them was elitism, arrogance, superiority.

I had the pleasure of meeting one of those people last month, and telling them-- this "respected elder"-- That they did me no motherfucking favors twenty years ago, and I have always remembered them with antipathy. I said that they did me ONE favor-- which was to teach me how NOT to treat newcomers. I relished the look of stupification on her face as I said this.

If someone comes here looking for a community, I tell them ways they might find community. They are the ways that I have found community.

You, catalina, might not need to talk to people about the things you need to know. But you have no right to assume everyone learns the way you do.

 

[Cattypuss]

It's funny to you, and to me, but you know what? Those people get just as much excitement out of the sex that they do have, as you get out of the sex that you have.

Some things are not a contest. Sex is one of those things.

Agreed.

 

[catalina_francisco]

Let me remind you that the books sold MILLIONS by word of mouth, long before this hooplah got started.

I don't need reminding....but as you say, online sales was through word of mouth and unfortunately, a lot of people will go for something if someone tells them it is good etc., and publicity is tuned to make a lot of people believe it is so..or it becomes the newest, latest trend to be seen following. Doesn't always mean it is and from what I have read, there are a lot of people saying it is not good (here and elsewhere), and is badly written which I agree with from my limited reading to date.

I can usually struggle through something which is not wonderful writing, but just reading the first page of this one was painful and had nothing to do with BDSM. A lot of people agree, and a lot of those people are not lacking in taste or education. I am not one to say I love something, or go along with someone/something, just because a hundred, thousand, or million other people do....it has served me well in my life and also helped me find and live the life I chose. We may have to agree to disagree on this one.

Catalina

 

[missgiter]

(and why I do not like public scening etc., which seems to be full of people trying to impress and show off to each other)
Catalina

I didn't even bother reading any farther. I happen to rather like public scenes. I don't do it to impress anybody else OR show off. I actually do it because it's far more arousing to -me- to be watched. Also, it's more arousing for me to see / hear others reactions.


For somebody who doesn't want to be judged, it seems you are doing quite a bit of it yourself, and that's said respectively.

 

[Stella_Omega]

unfortunately, a lot of people will go for something if someone tells them it is good etc.

Umm.. that's how people pass the word along. It's one of those neuro-whatsit things, with empathy and mirror neuron activity, and tribal identity and a whole lot of what makes human societies function-- sometimes for good, sometimes not so much good.

You mentioned;

I do however admit to having a sore point about people thinking they know my thoughts which dates back to events in my life 30 years or so ago which changed my and my children's lives forever.

So I can understand that you would shun other people's ways of sharing opinions. And I can even understand that you would judge people who do, and that's just fine for you. Your opinion is your opinion. But I see no need to respect your judgement, because that's when your opinion gets shoved into other people's business.

 

[Desiremakesmeweak]

as to the backlash...

As someone with some background both in commercial audio-visual production (won't go into it at the moment) as well as in professional and commercial literary businesses, including marketing and, dare I say it, even banking - the idea that this book 'sold millions before it went on the shelves' ought to be viewed through the lens of understanding that booksellers and the news media and even television are all vertically integrated these days. The marketing buzz is highly artificial, and the store 'pre-sales' are to do with whether the titles are shipped 'sale or return' or 'commission paid upfront' which is basically an arrangement between the publisher and the outlet chains - except that they are all linked through corporate ownership and/or control.

Secondly, there were a number of book editors and publishers who went through a few British and Australian BDSM chatboards a while back and quite a few people such as myself supposed - I think correctly - that they were plumbing the market depth and more or less pinching ideas and presuming there was a dedicated market at the end of it all, provided they could exploit it adequately. The internet has exposed the otherwise underground interest of it all and now we even have dommes versus Sherlock Holmes and Beyonce et cetera although admittedly the whole thing was never that far away from people like Madonna and just generally in a lot of fiction anyway albeit quite lightly.

Millions of copies actually sold? Hmn. Whatever they say. But a really successful popular effort in today's terms ought to be compared with the collaborative work of that real-life dom Ian Fleming - 'Thunderball' - which in today's money made a billion dollars. Casino Royale, the book, was a groundbreaker in terms of opening the mass public to hardcore S&M scenes within a decent popular and current storyline. I'm still looking for '1 Shade of Truth' - a real BDSM-angled thing in the modern context with a genuine avant garde edge that will turn over a billion dollars, and not just a few million (allegedly). And that will also be groundbreaking, and not a marketing-spun weak exploitation of a real world of real - including some stunning and exciting and interesting - people.

 

[catalina_francisco]

Umm.. that's how people pass the word along. It's one of those neuro-whatsit things, with empathy and mirror neuron activity, and tribal identity and a whole lot of what makes human societies function-- sometimes for good, sometimes not so much good.

You mentioned; So I can understand that you would shun other people's ways of sharing opinions. And I can even understand that you would judge people who do, and that's just fine for you. Your opinion is your opinion. But I see no need to respect your judgement, because that's when your opinion gets shoved into other people's business.

Sheesh, I give up....you really don't have a clue. That's OK, just stop projecting your perceptions and ways onto me as if it were fact.

Catalina

 

[catalina_francisco]

I didn't even bother reading any farther. I happen to rather like public scenes. I don't do it to impress anybody else OR show off. I actually do it because it's far more arousing to -me- to be watched. Also, it's more arousing for me to see / hear others reactions.


For somebody who doesn't want to be judged, it seems you are doing quite a bit of it yourself, and that's said respectively.

That's fine, but just as you like that, I am entitled to not like it...as to judging (which you seem to be doing yourself in that you take offence to the fact I am not the same as you in mmy preferences), not really, just going on what a lot of people (even here) have openly admitted in that they get off on the public scene and being seen and impressing others. Nothing wrong with it, just not my way, hence I prefer to steer clear of it in my life. Makes no sense to try and live my life the way someone else does, simply to prove I am OK with their freedom of choice...that doesn't work as being forced to prove it in such a way begins to take my freedom of choice away and I have lived long enough to not feel I need to have everyone's approval or run away crying. As the saying goes, 'no-one can please all the people all the time'.

Catalina

 

[catalina_francisco]

As someone with some background both in commercial audio-visual production (won't go into it at the moment) as well as in professional and commercial literary businesses, including marketing and, dare I say it, even banking - the idea that this book 'sold millions before it went on the shelves' ought to be viewed through the lens of understanding that booksellers and the news media and even television are all vertically integrated these days. The marketing buzz is highly artificial, and the store 'pre-sales' are to do with whether the titles are shipped 'sale or return' or 'commission paid upfront' which is basically an arrangement between the publisher and the outlet chains - except that they are all linked through corporate ownership and/or control.

Secondly, there were a number of book editors and publishers who went through a few British and Australian BDSM chatboards a while back and quite a few people such as myself supposed - I think correctly - that they were plumbing the market depth and more or less pinching ideas and presuming there was a dedicated market at the end of it all, provided they could exploit it adequately. The internet has exposed the otherwise underground interest of it all and now we even have dommes versus Sherlock Holmes and Beyonce et cetera although admittedly the whole thing was never that far away from people like Madonna and just generally in a lot of fiction anyway albeit quite lightly.

Millions of copies actually sold? Hmn. Whatever they say. But a really successful popular effort in today's terms ought to be compared with the collaborative work of that real-life dom Ian Fleming - 'Thunderball' - which in today's money made a billion dollars. Casino Royale, the book, was a groundbreaker in terms of opening the mass public to hardcore S&M scenes within a decent popular and current storyline. I'm still looking for '1 Shade of Truth' - a real BDSM-angled thing in the modern context with a genuine avant garde edge that will turn over a billion dollars, and not just a few million (allegedly). And that will also be groundbreaking, and not a marketing-spun weak exploitation of a real world of real - including some stunning and exciting and interesting - people.

Yep, bit like when they say unemployment figures have dropped when in reality they have just stuck people into training programmes and thus not counted them in the unemployment figures. The world is full of claims which don't fully portray the reality.

Catalina

 

[Bramblethorn]

But a really successful popular effort in today's terms ought to be compared with the collaborative work of that real-life dom Ian Fleming - 'Thunderball' - which in today's money made a billion dollars.

Why that comparison? From what I remember there was little or no S&M in 'Thunderball'. Certainly the movie version got generally PG-level ratings, and I assume you're counting the movie grosses towards that billion-dollar figure. (No film ever makes a profit in the net, not if the accountants are doing their job...)

Casino Royale, the book, was a groundbreaker in terms of opening the mass public to hardcore S&M scenes within a decent popular and current storyline.

It's been a long time since I read it, but I honestly don't recall S&M content in CR, unless we're talking about the nonconsensual torture (which is a whole different ball game). What have I missed?

 

[Stella_Omega]

Sheesh, I give up....you really don't have a clue. That's OK, just stop projecting your perceptions and ways onto me as if it were fact.

Catalina

Right back atcha.

Why that comparison? From what I remember there was little or no S&M in 'Thunderball'. Certainly the movie version got generally PG-level ratings, and I assume you're counting the movie grosses towards that billion-dollar figure. (No film ever makes a profit in the net, not if the accountants are doing their job...)



It's been a long time since I read it, but I honestly don't recall S&M content in CR, unless we're talking about the nonconsensual torture (which is a whole different ball game). What have I missed?

I think we're talking about the noncon. A lot of people still think that it isn't real BDSM unless it's to the death or something.

 

[Bramblethorn]

I think we're talking about the noncon. A lot of people still think that it isn't real BDSM unless it's to the death or something.

"Oh, a nail-studded electrified whip? How quaint! Let me know when you're enough of a dom to set it on fire."

 

[Desiremakesmeweak]

to clarify

I think I said merely 'to compare a successful POPULAR effort with...' And meant to incidentally mention that Fleming had a sexual sadism reputation.

I do personally recall the era in which CR was first published. It was not a time like now, exactly!!
Venus in Furs was neither publicly available nor in certain countries permitted at all, i.e. it was in fact banned. I think it may be hard to credit today, that at least among the literate, even call them the intelligentsia of the time - Fleming DEFINITELY used his medium to disguise let's say 'straightforward' sexual sadism and bring it more into the public arena, whereas to the masses it was more just about a different type of thrill, namely, the spying and killing and all that.

Really, I do think its impossible to underscore sufficiently, the difference in public attitudes towards S&M and related things from then till now. It's too easy to say we can't see the BDSM either in Thunderball or CR - but that is because we are looking at it from today's standards.

Certainly, the figures cited for Thunderball relate to the theatre movie earnings at the time - yet at the same time, no aficianado I know doubts that that book was in fact some kind of original screenplay treatment converted back to a book, rather than a standard original Fleming Bond book. It doesn't read like any of his other work, at least not to me.

Is there S&M in Thunderball or CR (and/or others)? You all must think you invented ice cubes on pussies and stinging nettles in fleshy parts and biting feet and whipping buttocks and on and on but it's all in there in Fleming's stuff - even Thunderball which begins with a threat to spank Moneypenny's bottom. It's just that the 'scene' was REALLY underground in those days, and those in it knew EXACTLY what was meant when IF stuck the word 'masochism' on the same page as 'cane' and 'buttock' and 'assume the tone of a father...' (CR around page 120, from memory). Not obvious enough though by today's standards, I accept.

I am sure? Can I be sure? Well I can if a grand aunt was part of the London Coroner's medical team of experts on the Bentink Street 'incident' to do with the Profumo Affair. Recent well-covered revelations about wealthy upper-crusty public figures indulging in a bit of le vice Anglais hardly is surprising given there is an immense history of it among those social circles. Nobody in upper social strata doubted then what Fleming was doing in his books.

His books WERE groundbreaking in terms of taking to 'the common public' a wide range of shady things given the public sense of morals of the day. I would like to see the same shattering of the sensibilities in a published work today - that is what I am saying. The fact that some here initially might not think there is/was S&M material in Fleming's Thunderball or the book CR just proves what a challenging task it will be to shatter today's arrogances, because we are now so far up the road. We are, in fact, truly decadent by correct definition.

Some of us, though, are still far more decadent than others. Thankfully. Which gives me hope.

 

[Netzach]

And here I just thought it was pretty much the misogynist dickitude that you come to expect in any action adventure.


Our sensibilities have been shattered, you see. That's why I can pick up Macho Sluts and actually read something that vaguely VAGUELY addresses my sexuality.

Back to my point, eons ago in another one of these threads, if you are into men having controlling cave men man-in-charge-women-submit sex you don't have to go anywhere. You don't have to read against the grain. The WHOLE WORLD is catering to you. WTF is the problem?

 

[Stella_Omega]

there is a vast difference between the pitiful self-deceptions of that poor schlemiel Sacher-Masoch, and the pure enjoyment of sensation etc that we play with.

There is a vast difference between the political satire wrapped in penis power that De Sade wrote, and the empathic connection between a top and a bottom that is the desired outcome of BDSM as we now know it.

Sadism and masochism without consent are not BDSM. E.L. James has nothing to do with Ian Fleming. The women who read fifty shades don't give two fucks about Thunderball, and it's great that those scenes get you going, enjoy! What someone else off-- is what works for them, and they will enjoy.

 

[njlauren]

Have you read the books?

The person who introduces Grey to the world of BDSM is a mature woman. He was 15 or 16 when they first got together and is referred to a paedophile for the rest of the books.

One of

That's just one example of the way BDSM is poorly portrayed.

I agree it's great that women are becoming in some way sexually liberated by the novel, I just object to the parts that make BDSM Out to be the domain of people who are fucked up and "normal" people, like Ana (a 22yo virgin!), should try and stop people from enjoying it through 'vanilla' love.

Yes, I read the books, which is why I made the statement I did. If you read the books, all of them, you learn key facts (which is why I said what I did about critical reading skills)...

-Elena Lincoln, the 'older women' is a pedophile who has a D/s with a 15 year old. Guess what, the BD/SM is irrelevant, whether she had vanilla sex with him, masturbated him or whatever, it is a pedophile, the form of sexuality is irrelevant, a pedophile is a pedophile.

-Christian Gray you learn comes from a really fucked up background, prostitute mom, abuse all over the place, and Ana later on in the books describes how Christian chose his subs because they looked like his mother and he was playing out what had happened to him (plus the book makes clear this is the only way Christian can relate to others). The thing about Christian is he is fucked up across the board, outside of his business he has no friends, doesn't relate (and the character of the psychiatrist makes a lot of this clear). The book makes pretty clear that Christian grasps onto the D/s stuff because that is the only way he can relate.

And yes, one of his subs was loony, but you missed something, Christian had had a number of other subs in the book and none of them were loony. Ana, the main character, is normal, and while she doesn't want the D/s stuff or the punishment crap, she does get into kinky play with him, she is fine with it, which is perfectly healthy (and look at how they end up)...

I more then understand why people are sensitive, but I think it is misplaced; I know as well as anyone else on here what the idiots or uninformed think of BD/SM play.

On the other hand, I challenge laying that at the feet of 50 shades of gray, and for a very logical reason. These books have sold 20 million copies and apparently by every account I can tell, by the direct word of people at adult shops and so forth, these aren't being read by the moral majority types so they can burn or it people who sit back and cluck "I knew they were all sick SOB's"...all three books wouldn't have sold those kind of numbers if that were the case, but secondly, the fact that so many people, mostly women, are trying some of the things they read about in the book tells me a different story, that they recognize it somehow for what it is, another way to have fun and bring a little sizzle to their sex lives. Yeah, I am sure the evangelical wackos and the uber Catholic types will sit and shake their fingers, but want to know something? They would do it anyway, they didn't need 50 shades to make that point.

If the book didn't bring up Christian's background, if Christian himself (thanks to Ana) didn't realize that Eleanor Lincoln was a pedophile or how his background made him so screwed up, then you might have a point. I have read plenty of stories, seen movies, where the obvious implication is BD/SM is for sickos, but this book wasn't one of them.

 

[njlauren]

<scritching head> Just wondering what "test out" means?

I meant simply that test results one some of the studies of people into BD/SM, IQ tests, tests of creativity, Meyers/Briggs and the like, show that a lot of folks into this scene are above the norms, tend more towards artistic/creative thinkers and so forth then against standard norms. No, not everyone into BD/SM is hyper intelligent or artistic, plenty of people who are otherwise ordinary, but on average BD/SM people tend to be in that direction. Not surprising, BD/SM ultimately is a form of play in my book, it takes a lot of creativity and so forth, and that kind of play is a hallmark of the bright/creative/artistic types, always has been.

 

[njlauren]

Hmm, you may have a point, with regards to Ana's position anyway. It doesn't explain any of the objective facts in the book- Christian's mentality and... unfortunately Freudian choice in subs, or Leila the crazy ex-sub- but it does go some way to rationalizing the constant demonization of Mrs. Robinson. Of course, since this is fiction and it's possible to write the characters any way the author wants, it was entirely within EL James' power to allow Ana to do some research and learn to know better... even if she herself was unwilling to do so before writing the book.



Can't speak for anyone else, but I actually appreciate the debate.

Elena Lincoln aka Mrs. Robinson is demonized not because she is into BD/SM but because she had a BD/SM relationship with a 15 year old boy, taking advantage of him in more ways then one. She is a pedophile, and whether she was into missionary sex or kink doesn't matter, the fact is that having sex with a 15 year old, let alone one who is troubled, makes her a piece of shit, not a kinkster. On top of everything else, she has Christian believing she 'saved his life' when in fact she helped screw it up. EL James shows why Christian is fucked up and also shows how Elena Lincoln twisted him as a boy into using D/s the way he did, there is a direct path.

BTW, only one of Christian's subs is screwed up. And as the book points out, Ana is okay with kinky play, she just wouldn't deal with the D/s stuff and the punishments and such, and she is presented as a normal person who in the end, manages to get Christian to love her normally, so not "all the bd/sm people' are screwed up.

 

[njlauren]

I don't need reminding....but as you say, online sales was through word of mouth and unfortunately, a lot of people will go for something if someone tells them it is good etc., and publicity is tuned to make a lot of people believe it is so..or it becomes the newest, latest trend to be seen following. Doesn't always mean it is and from what I have read, there are a lot of people saying it is not good (here and elsewhere), and is badly written which I agree with from my limited reading to date.

I can usually struggle through something which is not wonderful writing, but just reading the first page of this one was painful and had nothing to do with BDSM. A lot of people agree, and a lot of those people are not lacking in taste or education. I am not one to say I love something, or go along with someone/something, just because a hundred, thousand, or million other people do....it has served me well in my life and also helped me find and live the life I chose. We may have to agree to disagree on this one.

Catalina

What you are leaving out is we live in the modern age where word of mouth is both powerful and also a lot more discriminating. I would agree with you, except I suggest taking a look at Amazon and on Good Reads (among other rating sites), and see what people were writing about the book long before it became the cause celebrate it has. These books were getting serious action in the review sections on Amazon and so forth, and while there were negatives,a lot of this was positive. Selma from the bridge club reading them because sadie down the street whispered to her is not going to go on Amazon to write a review, and these books had thousands of reviews when many have at most 10's. Stella is right, the books sold almost a million copies before it hit the press, when it was an e-book put out by some tiny Australian e-book publisher with no publicity. Likewise, even assuming some of the 20 million were sold because of media hype, you don't sell that many books because the hype gets found out quickly if it really isn't that people are interested in the books...plus all three books have sold in that range, which means someone reading the first book also is likely to read the second and the third. It is like my mom used to say about a dish she served, one helping is polite, two, well, okay, maybe..but 3? Means they like it.

Again I come back to the key point about these books, they aren't meant to be a BD/SM book, it is a romance that features bd/sm imagery in it, big difference.