Loving Relationships In D/s And The Challenges Of Redirecting The Vanilla Mind

[Hecate]

better late then never I guess...

Looks like much good advise and intimate experience has been shared, so likely I am a bit too late with my pondering... anyway, a few thoughts on my take the questions; approaches you may want to "testrun" in your mind, see if they allow you a place of comfortable peace to embark on the challenging adventure you and your partner have chosen to explore.

How to "put up" with the terms of BDSM "endearment"
Admittedly, I have a difficult time using such words like slut and submissive when directly addressing my lover (yes, my relations are love first and BDSM second at this stage), unless we are in the right passionate mood and the specific scene warrants it (in a role play kind of way). I otherwise rather resort to "pet", or use some "oxymoronic" combinations like "my precious slut" to take the edge of it. I rather refer to them as my "toy" or my "treasure", something that is valuable and precious to me on a "owning" possessive level. I think to each their own - and just because I whip them and tie them into humiliating helpless positions doesn't mean I have to be "cruel" when addressing them out of scene. So I think - as has been said - it either is a process of adjusting to those "names" over time as you feel they are not derogatively (is that the right word?) used, or find words that hold meaning for you and your partner that express what you feel for each other in this form and level of relation. It does not become BDSM just because you are calling one another slut and Master, as much as it doesn't make it less BDSM if you have endearing charming names that you wouldn't otherwise expect. If you inwardly cringe each time you are addressed "slut" in the non-good way then address it. It is just a word, and unless he has some point to make about his dominance by using whatever title he cares to refer to you I am sure you will find a way to put all the intention into a title you both feel conveys exactly what you want for that sort of relation


Change your thought pattern to suit your desired life arrangement and not public opinion

1) you will always KNOW that you have made a conscious decision to take on a serving role and that at any given time you may see the need you can stand up, turn your back and go. Now, that knowledge is something I think makes a WORLD of difference. You are not pushed or pressed into a role you do not want, you are not serving by lack of choice for either physical or monetary repression. So basically you remain in your core what you think you should be ( until you are not worried about it anymore) - self sufficient, with a firm grip on your life, ready to take the responsibility the moment you need to.

2) detach yourself from the wrong thought that by submitting you "conveniently and lazily loose responsibility for your life". That is utterly absolutely wrong! You and you alone are the judge of your life in any instant as which each command you get, each direction you follow and each decision you accept over your life you actively support that decision and take your share of responsibility for the issuing consequences in full conscience. Look at the "If he said jump off that bridge..." example: Would you jump? If he asked anything of you that was utterly strongly against all your core believes and would endanger your children, would you? "He made me do it" is not valid - you and you alone must CONSENT to his power over you in every little step you take on that journey and it is not an easy and convenient one at times! As a matter of fact you will find it requires more self discipline and responsibility at times as opposed to just simply go ahead and decide what you think is right - so for me there is nothing going against "common sense" at all. Acceptance is an active decision as stated above, though not one that people who have been quite self-sufficient and strong would see that way.

3) As for the dynamics changing in your relation - do not try and go from equal to D/s 24/7 in all issues in one leap. Why should you? Just because you like being told what to do in the bedroom may still mean you'd rather choose your dinner from the menu yourself. Just because he gets to determine where you will be going to dine that evening may not mean you are comfy letting him choose what to wear every day. How about you set up "fields" as to where he gets first dibs and unless you are feeling strongly about it you will accept them? Slide into this new dynamic of power exchange, don't jump-start it. If it is meant for you to be then you will feel content and a natural progression should be the result as to him taking over additional "fields of decision". Again, fulfilling BDSM or D/s relation do not necessarily need to include all and every aspect of each other's lives and still be fulfilling and fully accounted for .


Holding back on giving pleasure

Now, that is a fun one *s* - but you may have noticed a thread, I think by cellis, about her doing a little "extra" additional to what she was asked for and the reaction it caused ... have a look there to understand the Dom side on this take if you like. Just look at it as your time to relax and just do what you are told - not to worry about what you think you SHOULD do or COULD do, just let go and allow your partner to decide what he wants. This is why he is in charge - this is his control and "not being extra nice" sure should be an easier task than being made to do things you don't like to do. And if it really makes you VERY uncomfortable, then why not negotiate with him that if he feels tired and worn out he need not be in charge of every exact detail but can order you to "just spoil him" and you are fine... that way he will have time to let himself fall and still be "in charge" and you can get to please him all you like without having to worry about ding too much. I swear, he will be glad for a " responsibility break" now and then and domming is not a walk in the park so to speak but can equal a marathon quite easily!

Hope any of this made sense and you find an angle to look at things that you can feel comfortable with.

 

[Justina123]

Well, since I seem to be on a roll (ha!), will comment on another part of your post:

How about some thoughts on how one has to redirect his/her line of thinking on the act of submission itself? Life experience often teaches us to be strongly self-sufficient, and many of us haven't had the luxury of allowing another complete care and control of our life since childhood. There can be mental conflict, and great difficulty in letting go of the control factor regarding your own life. Conventional wisdom may tell you that this defies common sense. But D/s is not conventional, it involves acceptance. How did/do you deal with this element?

I am a strongly self-sufficient career woman (have been raising 6 kids- now down to 3 left at home- by myself for the last 8 years, financially, physically, and emotionally). Bruce has told me he admires and values my intelligence, my career, etc. and, while he may make suggestions about my work life, the only order he gives me about it is an expectation that I will continue to do well. (And occasionally a strongly worded request to cut down on the weekend overtime!) After all, Bruce's work is in an entirely different area than mine, and neither of us is really knowledgeable about the others' area of expertise.

At home, he teases me by calling me "mommy domme" and, once again, while I am very thankful for evey bit of help and attention he gives my kids, he does not try to control that part of my life. He tells me he respects the job I have done as a mom, but he does a lot to support me and I really, really value his insight, suggestions, etc. on the kids' behavior- can't tell you how much having his point of view helps. And I love watching him bake bread with the kids or teach the two younger boys how to tie knots....

However, none of that detracts from the fact that Bruce is definitely the Dominant and I the submissive, I absolutely love the fact that he is in charge of me, leads, guides, and corrects me in all other areas, and it just a natural for us. And his acknowledgement of my intelligence and accomplishments makes me all that more respectful of him, more eager to please and to follow in other areas.

- justina

 

[catalina_francisco]

This was a good thread and might be of interest to some present day posters.

 

[Kajira Callista]

This was a good thread and might be of interest to some present day posters.

nice bump cat

 

[Kajira Callista]

Good morning Arden...
I have been following the thread since the moment that you posted it. There are so many questions in such a large body of text that trying to substantially answer point by point in My general rambling way simply may have possibly made the answer longer than it needs to be.
So I am going to wipe My mind of all but what I see written and between the lines.
Really I see 2 questions that answer all the rest to Me...

Retraining a vanilla mind would never ocurr to Me, neither to attempt it nor to suggest it.
When a submissive kneels at My feet, even if this thought had never occurred to him or her before that moment, I see the submissive mind set.
It will be *MY* aura of Domination that will fill their minds, My communication skills that will give them the freedom and comfort to feel fully accepted for all of their kinks and passive ways.
During the *getting to know you* stage My questions are blunt AND mixed with a nuance of subtle probing and what the submissive shows Me even between the lines is catalogued in My mind.
In the first real time meeting I will watch the eyes to see if they soften at the word submissive, if the lips curl up at the ends or press together slightly. If the voice drops imperceptively in volume or tone or if it becomes slightly louder and giggly. If the hands lay naturally and quietly in their lap or behind their backs or if they come to the top of the table to fidget.
I will be watching for the NATURAL signs of submission, more than simply a submissive personality, since for Me it always begins as D/s the possible relationship has not already been clouded by a deep vanilla friendship nor love.
Some submissives will never be comfortable hearing the word *submissive* being used to describe themselves. But when I use it for the first time I watch for all the signs above....But above all I will watch to see if the spine straightens with the word *submissive*
*slut* is another word that turns some on and sends others into a spiralling depression of low self esteem...
Words are just word..it is the emotions between the two people speaking and hearing the words that will bring pride or disgust.
Extremely simple in its complexity....

I Shadowsdream

 

[catalina_francisco]

Thought this might be a useful bump for Sweet Erika....

 

[lil_slave_rose]

Thought this might be a useful bump for Sweet Erika....

it was a great read for me as well, as i was 'nilla when i met P, He introduced me to this wonderful world *girns* and it was great to read over the questions and responses and take myself back to that time when i had a hard time being called 'submissive' and most of all 'slut'. it also reminded me that Master had alot of work with me to get my mind into the submissive mindset. i've always been 'submissive' but didnt know it had a name, really let alone a whole 'lifestyle' in which to direct the energy. thanks for the bump!

 

[Netzach]

If they're vanilla -- they're not going to change. Or, better, why should they?

If they do, they aren't vanilla.

We all start out being told we're straight. Some of us are, and others figure out eventually that we're just not.

Having a vanilla partner, for me, is like getting hot and heavy bothered over a straight girl. Ultimately very one-sided and not working.

I don't see "vanilla" as something to be overcome. It may just be what that person likes. It's a consistant arrogance I see in the SM world that vanilla will convert if shown the light, that the only reason someone doesn't get wet from power play is because she's frigid.

I made the rather all-encompassing decision to date exclusively within the self-aware pervert pool when I realized vanilla I ain't.

 

[catalina_francisco]

If they're vanilla -- they're not going to change. Or, better, why should they?

If they do, they aren't vanilla.

We all start out being told we're straight. Some of us are, and others figure out eventually that we're just not.

Having a vanilla partner, for me, is like getting hot and heavy bothered over a straight girl. Ultimately very one-sided and not working.

I don't see "vanilla" as something to be overcome. It may just be what that person likes. It's a consistant arrogance I see in the SM world that vanilla will convert if shown the light, that the only reason someone doesn't get wet from power play is because she's frigid.

I made the rather all-encompassing decision to date exclusively within the self-aware pervert pool when I realized vanilla I ain't.

We are very much on the same page...why waste precious time on what stands a good chance of being a lost cause, not to mention wasted energy (which I never have enough of), heartache, and frustration. I like accepting people know who and what they are and respecting them to have that self knowledge without my needing to show them where it is 'misguided'.

Catalina

 

[Ebonyfire]

Interesting...

The only thing I could add, is that I believe that the "vanilla mindset" does not exist in many people. I see more and more men I meet who have outwardly appeared to be vanilla, but when they are faced with a safe haven to let go they do so very quickly.

Labelling a person as vanilla invites that type of behaviour. Not everyone wants to be a submissive, but more will submit if they feel safe in letting go.

Eb

 

[bronntanas]

I don't see "vanilla" as something to be overcome. It may just be what that person likes. It's a consistant arrogance I see in the SM world that vanilla will convert if shown the light, that the only reason someone doesn't get wet from power play is because she's frigid.

BDSM evangelists bug me almost as much as televangelists.

Not everyone is kinky. Like Netzach, I only swim in the kinky pool. It's easier to resist the urge to "fix" your partner if you search for a partner who's kinked to begin with.

 

[graceanne]

If you go into a relationship (including friendships) thinking that you need to change the person to be with them, then the relationship isn't going to work. Period. To truelly love someone you need to love them as they are, not as you would like them to be.

 

[FurryFury]

I agree that you need to love people for who and what they are. I've always done that as much as people would allow me to.

However the only look for kinked people thing didn't work for me because I wasn't aware of what I truly needed until recently. I believe that is true for a lot of people, not just me. I wish I and everyone, knew themselves well enough before getting with others to find who and what they truly needed but from what I've seen that's pretty rare.

And people do change IMO. That is where the loyalty part comes in. Do you REALLY want to try to figure out how you can continue to be close to them in spite of changes that you maybe don't understand , that don't go along with the way you are or perhaps scare you? In my case, the answer is yes. Fortunately, in my husband's case, the answer is also yes, with regard to me.

It's nice we both happen to be able to acknowledge in each other's open and safe arms that we are kinky. Okay, one perhaps is more kinky than the other but yeah, we both accept the other as we are even as we continue to change and grow. Some people grow apart because they are perhaps not flexible enough for this. Thankfully we are growing even more together than ever.

I've always gotten up each day and said to myself how lucky I was to have this man in my life. In the past few years I've had even more reason to feel that way. I was in a relationship with someone else that tried to tear me down. I tried to give him just as much as I have tried to give my husband but he blocked me in so many ways. Now I'm with someone that not only lets me give him what I want to. He enjoys what I do give him and is happy with it. He was happy with it when we first got together. He has been happy with each stage and each change too.

He has given me the freedom to be who I truly want to be. I've done the same for him. The reason for all this is that he had the vision of a love that wasn't competitive but cooperative. It was quite a different vision from what I'd always seen. He has been a revelation to me in so many ways. He amazes me in this and so many other ways. That's not say we don't get pissed at each other from time to time or our lives are perfect. *L*

Fury

 

[RJMasters]

The problem most face when trying to change a vanilla mind towards D/s or BDSM has this pushing mentality attached to it. What I mean to say, and from my own experience, when you try to push someone towards something they do not want to go, things do not work.

However, there is an alternative to this. The result will vary from couple to couple.

If your are the dominant one, the way you take this alternate method is simply by doing things that you can do that does not require the other or force the other to participate or doesn't break the commitments of the relationship. In this apporach the focus is not on your partner but put on yourself where it should be. You want to learn how to use a single tail then get one and practice with it. You wnat to learn rope bondage then get some rope and begin practicing with it. Don't wait around till your partner joins in as that is likely not going to happen, however...

The key to this apporach is to be patient and be steady in your approach of incorpaorating these things in your own life. Many people are resistant to change because they are often afraid how it could effect the relationship. Sudden or big changes will often meet with resistance. Slow and steady changes will over time show the person that you have added several of these things into your life and it has not change the love or commitment in the relationship. Because you are a big part of that person's life, the goal is that as you do things for you, over time because they accept you, they can learn to accept the things and even become comfortable with them.

As an example, imagine two people walking together, you being one of them. You then decide you want to walk on the left side of the road. The other person doesn't. That's fine, but that doesn't stop you from walking on the left side of the road yourself. Chances are if you do, after a while the person will move over as they want to walk next to you and not by themselves. They may not be thrilled about walking on the left side of the road, but they will either get use to it or nothing is stopping them from walking on the right side of the road. The point is you don't have to push or pull them to your side of the road, you just have to be content to walk there and let them know they are welcome to join you.

Typically if the partner has a submissive nature or submissive tendencies, this apporach works well. If they are dominant themselves, then chances are it will not work out so well and be prepared for a long staring match of who is going to blink first kind of thing.


If you are the submissive in the relationship, you can also take this alternative plan and decide that nothing is stopping you from being submissive. Granted your partner may not be or even want to be dominant, however again, you have a choice to do what you can in being who you are. Again keeping in mind a slow and steady pace. Begin to look for ways in which you can serve and be submissive towards your partner. Take pride in and find joy in doing things you know they like.

Regardless whether you are dominant or submissive, Obviously you have reasons for being in and staying in a relationship with a vanilla oriented person. Perhaps you are married as one example and learned of your new interests after already being in the relationship. I see and hear a lot of people say how unfair it is for a person to try to convert their vanilla partner to bing D/s or into BDSM, and in part I can agree that pushing someone into something is not a good thing ever, however you do have the right as being 1/2 of the people in the relationship to be who you are and to follow your own interests as well. The other person in the relationship does have a responsibility to take your wants and desires into consideration and as in all relationship these things will change and grow over time. So I do not see any problem in or hypocracy in having these desires to be in your current relationship, but you do have a responsibility to respect your partner's wishes as well. So as you do things for yourself, you shouldn't force them to do anything, but let them know these are things you want.

If these things are more important to you than your current relationship, then leave. If your going to stay, then this is perhaps one of your best bets in slowly and steadily bringing your partner along.

In many ways it is a lot like a person who has limits. All of us have had limits that have changed over time. You can look at it in terms that a vanilla partner has alot of limits. It doesn't mean that those limits cannot be probed or stretched over time.

I have had my share of trying to force my vanilla wife into things. It has sent our relationship in a tailspin at times. I have tried the underhand approach and used manipulation to get what I want. I have also used the complete honest approach and coming out of the closet and dropping a bomb. Neather of these approaches met with any real success, but when I decided many months ago that I was going to stop pushing and start doing things for me in a positive way that still honored my current relationship, I have seen and experience some great results.

I'd be glad to share some examples of somethings that have come about as a result of following the above course in my own life.

This doesn't seem to be an issue when you have two people in a relationship that are into D/s BDSM, but for those who got into a vanilla relationship and then discovered their own interests, they are either faced with the choice of leaving the relationship or trying to find a measure of happiness within it. For those wishing to stay, the above may be the best advice I can offer in helping them to chart a course.

 

[incubus'_sub]

I think what you're saying has some truths RJ, but for most of us there came a time where we realised that it was an either / or situation.

I sort of admire your loyalty & determination to do your own thing, on your own, but after nearly 20 years of a similar marriage, in the end I opted out.

BDSM requires 2, a dominant & a submissive, & as many of us here have discovered, even a vanilla partner who's willing to pretend on occasion is not enough in the end.

 

[RJMasters]

I think what you're saying has some truths RJ, but for most of us there came a time where we realised that it was an either / or situation.

I sort of admire your loyalty & determination to do your own thing, on your own, but after nearly 20 years of a similar marriage, in the end I opted out.

BDSM requires 2, a dominant & a submissive, & as many of us here have discovered, even a vanilla partner who's willing to pretend on occasion is not enough in the end.

Yeah just celebrated my 20th Ann over the new years, and no I won't be opting out of my marraige.

You can think what you like as I don't have to prove nothing to you. I was just sharing honestly some things that were and are happening in my life. I am sure to you, its much easier to see it as pretend rather than being real exchange but that's your hang up not mine.

Like you said, many of you felt that you could not stay in a relationship where the other person has a vanilla type mindset. Good for you and I hope your decisions were right for you and you found what it is you wanted.

I think this thread is about how do you address a vanilla mindset if you are in a committed relationship. Not how do you chuck the relationship and go find someone who is not vanilla.

I think we can all agree that if you are currently not in a relationship and looking for someone and you want to have a D/s BDSM centered relationship, then its best to not get into a relationship with a vanilla person and then hope you can change that person. That's unfair and is probably not going to work. I also think we can agree that for many, the relationship they are in will not work and there is no hope that their partner will ever change or embrace any part of D/s or BDSM. In those cases a person has to make a choice to either stay or leave the relationship. And then there are those relationships where the partner is largely vanilla but are not completely closed to exploring or trying things depending on how you approach them.

As I ended my other post

This doesn't seem to be an issue when you have two people in a relationship that are into D/s BDSM, but for those who got into a vanilla relationship and then discovered their own interests, they are either faced with the choice of leaving the relationship or trying to find a measure of happiness within it. For those wishing to stay, the advice I gave may be the best advice I can offer in helping them to chart a course.

As I also said that results will often vary from couple to couple, and it appears for you, after 20 years of trying, it didn't work out so you left your relationship and moved on to find a relationship that would meet your needs.

I wonder how many of those 20 years were actually spent trying. I wonder at what point in that 20 year relationship did you recognise what really were your needs and see them as D/s BDSM?

Speaking with some others who have shared something simillar to what you have, they have said that they had always known to some degree that they were submissve but they didn't really know much about D/s or BDSM. That for a large part of the relationship, they were unsatisfied and unhappy. Then they learned about D/s and BDSM and over a peroid of 2-3 years tried to make it work in their relationship and having no luck gave up and left the relationship. For some it may have been as easy as changing their mailing address, for others it may have required that they make huge sacrifices. Regardless of other people's experiences, I can only hope they feel they did the right thing for them, as for me I must do what is right for me.

As for a BDSM relationship requiring a Dominant and a submissive, or a D/s relationship requiring a dominant and a submissive, thanks for stating the obvious, but I doubt you are in the position to tell me wheather or not I meet the critieria of being a dominant or that my wife meets the criteria of being a submissive. Nor are you in the position to tell me if what we share in our real life together is "pretend" or not. Perhaps you were being more generalized when you made this comment and if so I would agree with it that it does require two and it is not enough for one to just pretend every once in a while.

However, you often come across as because you lost everything because of the choices you made in order to follow your own desires, That others who do not do the same, somehow cannot obtain a measure of hapiness or realness in their lives. Perhpas that is not the way you intend to come across, but that is often how I see you express it.

 

[catalina_francisco]

If you are the submissive in the relationship, you can also take this alternative plan and decide that nothing is stopping you from being submissive. Granted your partner may not be or even want to be dominant, however again, you have a choice to do what you can in being who you are. Again keeping in mind a slow and steady pace. Begin to look for ways in which you can serve and be submissive towards your partner. Take pride in and find joy in doing things you know they like.

While I can see where you are coming from, it doesn't work for me. It is not just in this posting it doesn't work as I have also seen submissives post in a similar manner as in this is how they manage to remain with a vanilla partner while 'submitting' to them without their input. It just doesn't work for me to call it D/s and not through any form of snobbery or my way is better than your way. See I was in a vanila marriage before this one (and on my own by choice for 16 or so years after that), and while I was in that marriage I in no way, even in hindsight, would claim to have been a submissive or even submissive by nature, but I did things which I knew would please my partner or make his day better just as he did for me....this has been happening in relationships since time began without being remotely D/s. To me that is part of being in a relationship, period...it has nothing to do with being a submissive...if it does, does that mean the vanilla partner cannot do anything they know will make their partner happy or more comfortable because it then makes them a submissive or submissive by nature?

If you enter a relationship and have no intention of ever doing what you know brings comfort and/or a smile to your partner, or you cannot because it means you are submissive, you may as well not be in the relationship because you are restricted from having a 2 way relationship whereby you are there for each other and honestly involved...you can't have a sharing relationship if in vanilla terms one partner can do nice things for the other and the other has to sit back and do nothing because they are not submissive...even in a full on D/s relationship both do things for each other which form much of the foundation and life of the relationship, right down to the act of dominating or submitting because that is your preferred and agreed role. You can fantasise you are submitting to the vanilla partner by doing what you think/know they would appreciate, but to me that is still not submission but meeting your own needs through fantasy and deception....for one thing where is the consent factor in this D/s element of behaviour? Where is the submission when the so called submissive makes the decision what the vanilla pseudo Dominant would like, want, need and acts on those decisions independent of any input from the partner? For me I see little difference from a stalker deciding someone is their partner because they feel they are in love with them, might even be able to have a relationship with them as a friend or aquaintance, but which throughout the stalked party is totally unaware and not in love with them...it is not a loving relationship, it is one based on deception and fantasy.

For me I require more than a lonely fantasy in my head only whereby I pretend to be wife to my partner while plotting my next act of submission as their submissive and they remain totally unaware of the connotations of. I need some form of dominance, even if it is as simple as an agreement that these are our respective roles fully acknowledged and consented to by both parties. I also need him to take some responsibility in deciding what it is he wants/requires of me in my submission (not as a partner), not leaving it up to me to decide and act on in a vacuum he is not in with me. I think due to the frustrations of many who are not in the relatiionship of their choice, there is a growing trend to decide it is not necessary to have a consenting and 'in the know' partner, instead submitting (or dominating) by deception. I also think it has become popular to think anything you do for your partner can be seen as submitting when in reality it is part of a vanilla mainstream relationship even our parents and grandparents could lay claim to without any thought or hint of D/s...perish the thought!! Wanting it does not make it so, as sad as that is. Being informed and consenting does.

Catalina

 

[incubus'_sub]

I agree with everything you say, Cat. I actually don't regret my previous marriages. The bonds were strong & the relationships successful in many ways, yet I do regret being made to feel "wrong" for my desires throughout all those years. To be honest, I must admit that I feel the loss of most of my ättractive" years most keenly, D/s as we practice it being quite visual. At 52 I do feel the years apon me.

RJ, I make my comments from my own experience & life, as you do yours. It has been my experience that although some vanilla partners are prepared to do a bit of role play ie pretend to be a Dom for the night, it is a short lived interest with a specific goal & is not satisfying. The mindset, which they don't understand (nor should they need to as it's not their thing) is missing.

I actually knew, & stated honestly at the beginning of my 20 year relationship, that I was submissive & it was my misfortune that my husband pretended the role for about 6 months until he lost interest in it. For him, it was a bit different & quite hot until he couldn't be bothered anymore. As it was not part of his real makeup he didn't understand how it was so important to me. It then became my problem, it being something wrong with me.

I write these things not to have a go at you in any way, but because I truly believe that a vanilla partner is just that & no matter how carefully you try to guide them into what you want from the relationship, or for how long, it's just not going to happen. It's either there or not.

I didn't lose everything. I chose to give up a very comfortable lifestyle to be myself. I now have everything & more with my new husband & Dom & am deeply satisfied for possibly the first time in my life.

 

[JMohegan]

Why not start a thread called: "Loving Relationships And The Challenges Of Redirecting The Dominant Mind" ?

Does anyone have suggestions on how to induce me, RJ, Geoff, Francisco, etc. to make dinner according to certain specifications at the same time everyday, or kneel on the floor on command?

How about a thread called: "Loving Relationships And The Challenges Of Redirecting The Sadist's Mind" ?

Does anyone have suggestions on how to get the guys mentioned above to consent to being tied up & spanked, flogged, blindfolded, humiliated, etc., on a regular basis?

I agree that people change over time in a relationship, and I further agree that loving partners make an effort to accomodate each other's needs. But there are limits to these concepts, clearly.

I would consider it unreasonable to be asked to alter my orientation as a Dominant and a sadist. Therefore, I consider it unreasonable to ask another person to alter their own orientation as well.

However....

I do believe that there are some people whose Dominant, submissive, or SM natures may be sparked, nourished and brought to life if given appropriate time and strategies. And in these cases, I find the following analogy to be a very good one.

In many ways it is a lot like a person who has limits. All of us have had limits that have changed over time. You can look at it in terms that a vanilla partner has alot of limits. It doesn't mean that those limits cannot be probed or stretched over time.

 

[FurryFury]

Why not start a thread called: "Loving Relationships And The Challenges Of Redirecting The Dominant Mind" ?

Does anyone have suggestions on how to induce me, RJ, Geoff, Francisco, etc. to make dinner according to certain specifications at the same time everyday, or kneel on the floor on command?

How about a thread called: "Loving Relationships And The Challenges Of Redirecting The Sadist's Mind" ?

Does anyone have suggestions on how to get the guys mentioned above to consent to being tied up & spanked, flogged, blindfolded, humiliated, etc., on a regular basis?

I agree that people change over time in a relationship, and I further agree that loving partners make an effort to accomodate each other's needs. But there are limits to these concepts, clearly.

I would consider it unreasonable to be asked to alter my orientation as a Dominant and a sadist. Therefore, I consider it unreasonable to ask another person to alter their own orientation as well.

However....

I do believe that there are some people whose Dominant, submissive, or SM natures may be sparked, nourished and brought to life if given appropriate time and strategies. And in these cases, I find the following analogy to be a very good one.

I agree with you.

RJ, I enjoyed your post very much too.

Fury

 

[RJMasters]

While I can see where you are coming from, it doesn't work for me. It is not just in this posting it doesn't work as I have also seen submissives post in a similar manner as in this is how they manage to remain with a vanilla partner while 'submitting' to them without their input. It just doesn't work for me to call it D/s and not through any form of snobbery or my way is better than your way. See I was in a vanila marriage before this one (and on my own by choice for 16 or so years after that), and while I was in that marriage I in no way, even in hindsight, would claim to have been a submissive or even submissive by nature, but I did things which I knew would please my partner or make his day better just as he did for me....this has been happening in relationships since time began without being remotely D/s. To me that is part of being in a relationship, period...it has nothing to do with being a submissive...if it does, does that mean the vanilla partner cannot do anything they know will make their partner happy or more comfortable because it then makes them a submissive or submissive by nature?

If you enter a relationship and have no intention of ever doing what you know brings comfort and/or a smile to your partner, or you cannot because it means you are submissive, you may as well not be in the relationship because you are restricted from having a 2 way relationship whereby you are there for each other and honestly involved...you can't have a sharing relationship if in vanilla terms one partner can do nice things for the other and the other has to sit back and do nothing because they are not submissive...even in a full on D/s relationship both do things for each other which form much of the foundation and life of the relationship, right down to the act of dominating or submitting because that is your preferred and agreed role. You can fantasise you are submitting to the vanilla partner by doing what you think/know they would appreciate, but to me that is still not submission but meeting your own needs through fantasy and deception....for one thing where is the consent factor in this D/s element of behaviour? Where is the submission when the so called submissive makes the decision what the vanilla pseudo Dominant would like, want, need and acts on those decisions independent of any input from the partner? For me I see little difference from a stalker deciding someone is their partner because they feel they are in love with them, might even be able to have a relationship with them as a friend or aquaintance, but which throughout the stalked party is totally unaware and not in love with them...it is not a loving relationship, it is one based on deception and fantasy.

For me I require more than a lonely fantasy in my head only whereby I pretend to be wife to my partner while plotting my next act of submission as their submissive and they remain totally unaware of the connotations of. I need some form of dominance, even if it is as simple as an agreement that these are our respective roles fully acknowledged and consented to by both parties. I also need him to take some responsibility in deciding what it is he wants/requires of me in my submission (not as a partner), not leaving it up to me to decide and act on in a vacuum he is not in with me. I think due to the frustrations of many who are not in the relatiionship of their choice, there is a growing trend to decide it is not necessary to have a consenting and 'in the know' partner, instead submitting (or dominating) by deception. I also think it has become popular to think anything you do for your partner can be seen as submitting when in reality it is part of a vanilla mainstream relationship even our parents and grandparents could lay claim to without any thought or hint of D/s...perish the thought!! Wanting it does not make it so, as sad as that is. Being informed and consenting does.

Catalina

I think it has become equally as popular to think everything one does under the D/s is consider to be D/s or BDSM by defactor when in truth is is not much different than most Vanilla relationships.

I won't mince words with you on this issue Cat because I never said or claim there is an complete equality between the two. I can see where from the submissive side of things, being in a relationship where the partner is vanilla does not work out, though being the dominant in my relationship, I have much more control and say on things, so perhaps from my perspective, things might be a different.

Again I see this thread "Starting from a point" of being in a relationship where one person has D/s and BDSM interests and the partner is largely vanilla.

As to where each individual relationship will go from that point is entirely up to the two people in that relationship.

I agree that wanting something doesn't make it so, but I also think that wanting something and continuing to work towards that with a partner "can make it so".
Not always as some including yourself has stated. But again your experiences and that of others in no way creates an all encompassing rule where by others must adopt or even operate from.

I know this much, I cannot classify my marraige as vanilla anymore. Can't honestly say it is a full blown D/s BDSM relationship either, but this isn't a competition to me. I don't need to have what you and F have or what Inc and Bus has in order to feel validated or happy.

I doubt leading my wife through the house by a pinched nipple, because I was dripping wet from a shower because she forgot(again) to get the towels out of the dryer and then make her dry me off is something that would be consider vanilla. Nor would me then tossing her on the bed and feeling how wet this made her be either. Of course it all could be just my imagination.

Maybe your refering to the vanilla part where i hold her down by her neck and tell her to open her legs and then I smack her pussy till its swollen red and she cums while crying, then afterards thanks me for pushing her.

Of course you might be refering to outside the bedroom or non sexual activity. where I have designated a "stoop" where when I tell her to go stand in it she does and waits until I come and give her a hug. I am sure so many vanilla wives would stand there for 15 mins watcing me as I finish whatever I am doing.

Perhaps we don't have a full blown BDSM relatiionship, but my relationship is what it is and it is not pretending or wanting something to be so. It is largely comprised of 20 years of a relationship whereby I have earned the respect and devotion I get. And in recent months the expression of that respect and devotion has been becoming more and more what a typical D/s BDSM relationship would be decribed as. This is due in large to me saying this is what I want. So maybe saying what you want doesn't make it so, but it sure is the first step towards making it happen.

 

[RJMasters]

I agree with everything you say, Cat. I actually don't regret my previous marriages. The bonds were strong & the relationships successful in many ways, yet I do regret being made to feel "wrong" for my desires throughout all those years. To be honest, I must admit that I feel the loss of most of my ättractive" years most keenly, D/s as we practice it being quite visual. At 52 I do feel the years apon me.

RJ, I make my comments from my own experience & life, as you do yours. It has been my experience that although some vanilla partners are prepared to do a bit of role play ie pretend to be a Dom for the night, it is a short lived interest with a specific goal & is not satisfying. The mindset, which they don't understand (nor should they need to as it's not their thing) is missing.

I actually knew, & stated honestly at the beginning of my 20 year relationship, that I was submissive & it was my misfortune that my husband pretended the role for about 6 months until he lost interest in it. For him, it was a bit different & quite hot until he couldn't be bothered anymore. As it was not part of his real makeup he didn't understand how it was so important to me. It then became my problem, it being something wrong with me.

I write these things not to have a go at you in any way, but because I truly believe that a vanilla partner is just that & no matter how carefully you try to guide them into what you want from the relationship, or for how long, it's just not going to happen. It's either there or not.

I didn't lose everything. I chose to give up a very comfortable lifestyle to be myself. I now have everything & more with my new husband & Dom & am deeply satisfied for possibly the first time in my life.

Well that really sucks that your first husband did that to you. I can see how this was extremely unfair to you.

Certainly our experiences are completely different. Where as I might say that my wife is largely vanilla, that is based upon not really exploring to see how unvanilla she can be, or unsucessful exploring from a "pushing perspective".

Like I said, I certainly do not how you would classify some of the things that goes on here at RJmanor. It certainly doesn't fall in what is the typical vanilla definition of things, yet I am certain it doesn't match the same level of expression others such as yourself and your master may have.

All I can say is that if the last year or so is any indication or progress, I have an optimisitc outlook of what 5 years from now will look like. At that time the kids will be raised and most likely gone which will allow a higher level of freedom. I see this in small does now. When we are alone at home.

Again I am sorry that your first husband failed to be who he made himself out to be and then pushed the responisbility of it all onto you. That was wrong of him to do that, and I am glad that you found happiness.

 

[catalina_francisco]

I actually don't see it as different if the Dominant has a vanilla partner. Saying you have much more control does not make it D/s unless your spouse consents to being controlled and being a submissive IMHO. If it is assumed control, even if the partner is happy to let you make most decisions as many in mainstream are, unless it is consented to with full knowledge and acknowledgement of the D/s dynamic it still is not D/s IMHO....if it is a matter that it just isn't mentioned, just as with the sub with a vanilla partner they claim to be submitting to through doing certain things, it is deception. In a lot of these instances, the partners have made it clear they do not want anything to do with D/s, and often find it a huge turn off...to then move forward and claim to others outside the relationship you are in fact living a D/s role, just your partner is vanilla and doesn't know they are actually being thought of as a type of submissive or Dominant partner as the shoe fits because you havn't told them is just plain disrespectful and dishonest, not to mention arrogant and often would be enough to bring about divorce if the vanilla partner were made aware of what was going on....I would certainly haul you off for divorce if you did that to me after I had previously made my feelings clear on the issue. Where is the trust in that arrangement? It is destroyed. For me to deceive a partner in this way varies very little to an abuser who beats the crap out of their partner and claims it wasn't abuse because she really likes it.

If it makes you feel better to imagine a D/s relationship is really not much removed from a vanilla one and that those who live it 24/7 imagine it more than live it, that is your choice, but I can assure you how we live our life and make our choices is not based on a vanilla model though outward appearances may seem it is, nor is it based on deception of one partner assuming one model for the relationship but just neglecting to tell the other one that is who and what they are. Evidence of this reality for us was when we recently had someone living in our house temporarily and after a few days and nights here they made a comment about the obvious but subtle dynamics of our relationship without our raising it in conversation, or even asking their thoughts or observations, or our behaving any differently than we do when we are alone. It is who we are, not who we pretend to be when there is an audience, but it still surprised me that someone coming into the household could see it so clearly and quickly without any suggestion or directing of attention to details.

Catalina

 

[catalina_francisco]

I actually don't see the topic of this thread to have been about how to make a vanilla become a sub or Dom/me, or how to deceive them into playing that role without their knowledge, but more so about how after consenting to and accepting that change in a previously vanilla relationship you work through long ingrained vanilla thought patterns and behaviours to become more consciously the sub or Dom/me you have taken the responsibility of being.

Catalina

 

[JMohegan]

Most of the questions here deal with mindset, and the challenges of refocusing the vanilla mind toward the D/s way of life. In particular, I'm interested in hearing from Dom/mes that have become involved in a love relationship with a vanilla person prior to introducing D/s into the relationship.

To me, the term "vanilla person" means someone who is non-kinky. And a non-kinky person is someone who is *not* aroused/fulfilled/satisfied by either D/s or SM.

The idea of attempting to "redirect the vanilla mind" is therefore an idea that I consider to be totally unreasonable, not to mention futile.

However, I do know that there are latent kinksters out there, by which I mean people who do in fact have Dominant, submissive, sadistic, or masochistic tendencies, but are either: (a) unaware that others actually practice pain play & power play, or (b) inexperienced with the same.

To those who are in a relationship with a person whom they suspect might be a latent kinkster, the most important piece of advice I would give is to throw away the script. As in....

One topic I would like to pose would be the ability to accept being called someone's 'submissive'. For those of us that are older, we are used to the terms Lover, partner, spouse, wife, husband, boyfriend, girlfriend, etc. to describe our love interest. How did you break through the barrier and accept the term 'submissive' as being as 'important' as the terms previously mentioned?

Frankly, I find this goal difficult to understand.

Who cares about the label?

What's important to me is behavior. I tell her what to do, and she does it. *That* is D/s, to me.

Don't focus on fitting your relationship into the late 20th century BDSM culture box. Be your own man (or woman). Make up your own customs, words of significance, and ways of exerting control that meet your needs and those of the individual whom you are trying to lead into the world of D/s and/or SM.

This is going to make things much easier (and possibly more meaningful) for both of you. Because, instead of attempting to embrace the traditions that worked for others, you have the opportunity to create traditions that best fit your own unique relationship.

I doubt leading my wife through the house by a pinched nipple, because I was dripping wet from a shower because she forgot(again) to get the towels out of the dryer and then make her dry me off is something that would be consider vanilla. Nor would me then tossing her on the bed and feeling how wet this made her be either. Of course it all could be just my imagination.

Maybe your refering to the vanilla part where i hold her down by her neck and tell her to open her legs and then I smack her pussy till its swollen red and she cums while crying, then afterards thanks me for pushing her.

Of course you might be refering to outside the bedroom or non sexual activity. where I have designated a "stoop" where when I tell her to go stand in it she does and waits until I come and give her a hug. I am sure so many vanilla wives would stand there for 15 mins watcing me as I finish whatever I am doing.

That sounds like consensual pain play and power play to me.

Not scripted, but I consider that to be a good thing.

Not advanced, but everyone starts somewhere.

Yeah just celebrated my 20th Ann over the new years

Congratulations, RJ. I think that's great.