'Man'imal- Where to draw the line?

[FurryFury]

I've never thought animals were dumb. I've thought certain ones were about certain things though.

 

[Homburg]

Actually, on the intelligence and cognitive level argument, research is proving that dogs, particular birds, dolfins, some apes are all capable of cognitive thinking on a much higher level than previously thought, and far above the level of a baby or child. Seems the old reference to dumb animals is making more fool of the humans who thought they were incapable of anything but the most basic thought processe if that. Of course many of us who have had animals all our lives and watched them think and behave have known they were not dumb animals and had cognitive ability beyond what was supposed, but science in its usual way could not accept it until, they devised a way to prove it beyond doubt.

Catalina

I was going for the easy to accept cognitive comparison. I've known dogs that were incredibly smart. And horses that were amazing.

 

[BiBunny]

Actually, on the intelligence and cognitive level argument, research is proving that dogs, particular birds, dolfins, some apes are all capable of cognitive thinking on a much higher level than previously thought, and far above the level of a baby or child. Seems the old reference to dumb animals is making more fool of the humans who thought they were incapable of anything but the most basic thought processe if that. Of course many of us who have had animals all our lives and watched them think and behave have known they were not dumb animals and had cognitive ability beyond what was supposed, but science in its usual way could not accept it until, they devised a way to prove it beyond doubt.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/54/138367709_d37125fe01_t.jpg Catalina

I don't have that much experience with dogs or birds or anything, but I can assure you that I've been around some horses that'll put the "dumb animal" idea to shame. They can reason (to some extent), and they do feel emotions. They just don't, you know, speak English. I think a lot of the tendency to anthropomorphize comes from the idea that the "dumb animal" needs our protection. Truth is, if you threw a dog and its owner out in the wilderness by themselves, chances are, the dog would make it a lot longer than his owner would.

 

[WriterDom]

I don't have that much experience with dogs or birds or anything, but I can assure you that I've been around some horses that'll put the "dumb animal" idea to shame. They can reason (to some extent), and they do feel emotions. They just don't, you know, speak English. I think a lot of the tendency to anthropomorphize comes from the idea that the "dumb animal" needs our protection. Truth is, if you threw a dog and its owner out in the wilderness by themselves, chances are, the dog would make it a lot longer than his owner would.

I can plow a field all day long
I can catch catfish from dusk till dawn
We make our own whiskey and our own smoke too
Ain’t too many things these ole boys can’t do
We grow good ole tomatoes and homemade wine
And a country boy can survive
Country folks can survive

 

[BiBunny]

I can plow a field all day long
I can catch catfish from dusk till dawn
We make our own whiskey and our own smoke too
Ain’t too many things these ole girls can’t do
We grow good ole tomatoes and homemade wine
And a country girl can survive
Country folks can survive

Fixed that for you.

 

[catalina_francisco]

I don't have that much experience with dogs or birds or anything, but I can assure you that I've been around some horses that'll put the "dumb animal" idea to shame. They can reason (to some extent), and they do feel emotions. They just don't, you know, speak English. I think a lot of the tendency to anthropomorphize comes from the idea that the "dumb animal" needs our protection. Truth is, if you threw a dog and its owner out in the wilderness by themselves, chances are, the dog would make it a lot longer than his owner would.

I think most animals put the dumb animal label to rest, it's just humans are too busy feeling they are the smart ones to notice. As to speaking english (or any human form of language), this research is actually proving that wrong also. Apart from the previous experiments that have seen apes communicating through computers etc., they have taught a parrot to have a vocal vocabulary of around 100 words before his death, despite a parrots vocal tract not being made for speaking. He even practiced in his spare time without human encouragement, and chastised other birds by telling them to 'speak clearly!!' when they struggled to master words as well. He also could count, do arithmatic, and differentiate between wood, metal, and wool amongst other things.

Interestingly, the research has also shown a Banobo could use 360 keyboard symbols accurately and understand thousands more words...and a border collie dog with a vocabulary of 340 words and still growing. It also demonstrated the ability of various animals to plan, to plot, be deceptive, sneak sex behind the alpha's back, hide and rehide food to avoid theft, create tools to perform tasks. While animals may not always be able to vocalise the words, I don't believe that limits their understanding of the meaning anymore than a vocally challenged human or a young child still learning to speak. I find the whole research fascinating as it proves what many animal enthusiasts have known for a long time. (oh, the story I read was in March issue of National Geographic for anyone interested in reading more and following it up)

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3257/2355867878_7c60d2b11f_t.jpgCatalina

 

[catalina_francisco]

I was going for the easy to accept cognitive comparison. I've known dogs that were incredibly smart. And horses that were amazing.

So true. I had a dog who used to know when I was going into a depressive spin before I did and would insist on being let in and stick by my side. If I sat on the steps beside him when I was like that, he would lean on me and put his head on my shoulder with a big sigh, then give me a light shove until I leaned back. The cats we have now are also another prime example of smart animals. They have very distinctly different personalities and yet they too know when I am feeling down or stressed, especially the black one and when that happens they interrupt their usual clockwork type routine to stick by me and follow me like puppies, cuddle up to me, and just sit with me. They also are very obvious when plotting against each other. You see one scouting the living room and then settling for a hiding place, then waiting with anticipation for the other one to come into the room and get pounced on. I swear they have hidden watches as well. They go for an afternoon nap and yet always come downstairs together (even if they had been asleep on different floors) right on the spot of 5PM for dinner. If I don't get it then, they remind me by meowing and then going to sit by the food cupboard or their feeding spot while glaring in my direction. Priceless thay are. LOL, and we have proven they are bi-lingual at least...mention cat collars in either Dutch or English (without a collar in sight), even quietly, and they bolt for the stairs and hide for an hour or 2...they hate collars.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/167/382685004_3ab0fcf2a9_t.jpg Catalina

 

[00Syd]

I had the KoKo books when I was a kid, the one about the gorilla that learned sign language. I used to love apes and monkeys, and stayed updated on all the scientific news proving how smart they are. And then we found out that dolphins are pretty smart too, and now some birds too.

Of course there are intelligent animals, we couldn't be the only ones, but that doesn't change the fact that consent is a human concept, and I just object to applying human concepts to other species in general, because in my opinion, its ridiculous, and a waste of time. Its like putting Monkeys in people clothes, makes 'em cute and easier to identify with, but its still forcing a monkey into a human thing.

 

[Cheshire D]

In my fantasies? Sure. It can be a staple some days.

Real life? Negative, ew, ick, gross, and I'll be honest I lose respect for people that admit to have done it. (And I know more than my fair share...) I don't believe non-human animals can give true, honest, and informed consent, no matter how intelligent they may seem.

 

[Ganyeka]

LOL, not to mention you can throw up in another person's mouth, make them lick their own vomit from the floor, lick out a toilet, lick someone's shitty butt clean, eat shit, lick a floor clean, pierce and cut off things that many would cringe at the thought of cutting off or mutilating, and it is all OK, but be a zoophile or someone who engages in bestial behaviour and it is gross and unmentionable. Humans are strange creatures, beats me why any animal would even want to lower themselves to jumping our bones.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2340/2348599702_7360a51a3a_t.jpg Catalina

I'm sorry, but it is a VERY small part of any "community" that is not repulsed by what you describe. The vast majority of people would see that degree of deviation in the same class as bestiality if you ask me. Maybe worse.

 

[Ganyeka]

I had the KoKo books when I was a kid, the one about the gorilla that learned sign language. I used to love apes and monkeys, and stayed updated on all the scientific news proving how smart they are. And then we found out that dolphins are pretty smart too, and now some birds too.

Of course there are intelligent animals, we couldn't be the only ones, but that doesn't change the fact that consent is a human concept, and I just object to applying human concepts to other species in general, because in my opinion, its ridiculous, and a waste of time. Its like putting Monkeys in people clothes, makes 'em cute and easier to identify with, but its still forcing a monkey into a human thing.

Anthropomorphism is silly. Animals have drives. They don't rationalise. If the dog mounts a woman, he's doing it because he wants to. End of story. To introduce the concept of consent to it is ridiculous. It is also invalid.

 

[HottieMama]

I'm sorry, but it is a VERY small part of any "community" that is not repulsed by what you describe. The vast majority of people would see that degree of deviation in the same class as bestiality if you ask me. Maybe worse.

I have to disagree with you there, at least from my limited experience here in the Wichita community. One of the major players here and leader of our main "group" is heavy into vomit and shit-play. He attracts crowds with his scenes and is never without a willing bottom. For every person he has "chased away" with his fetishes, there are two more to take their place. I will NEVER understand how vomit, shit, or dogs are erotic, and FOR ME that's what it all boils down to...Does *this,* in some way, get me off?

 

[Ganyeka]

I have to disagree with you there, at least from my limited experience here in the Wichita community. One of the major players here and leader of our main "group" is heavy into vomit and shit-play. He attracts crowds with his scenes and is never without a willing bottom. For every person he has "chased away" with his fetishes, there are two more to take their place. I will NEVER understand how vomit, shit, or dogs are erotic, and FOR ME that's what it all boils down to...Does *this,* in some way, get me off?

What are you calling your "Wichita Community", and what is the "Main group"?

When I said Community, I meant the community as a whole. Say Sydney Metropolitan Area. About 4 Million People. Only a tiny tiny slice of that community is going to say that all of the shit, vomit and other stuff you refer to is "acceptable". To the vast majority it is deviant, sick and fucking wierd.

 

[catalina_francisco]

I'm sorry, but it is a VERY small part of any "community" that is not repulsed by what you describe. The vast majority of people would see that degree of deviation in the same class as bestiality if you ask me. Maybe worse.

One thing I've learned is not to underestimate what people are into and why. For instance, we have attracted a lot of criticism and at times reprimands that weren't so civil in content simply because we live a TPE M/s lifestyle, and have included permanent branding and scarring through cutting into our relationship. While I don't see those things as that out there, it really upsets others while some see it like us as nothing unusual...and while I may not get off on the thought of eating vomit etc., doesn't mean it is a fringe thing that is rarely seen or experienced, so dismissable. The amount of times you come across pics of it on the net alone (and I rarely surf porn at that) is a clear indication there are more people into it than many think, and much of it seems to be geared toward the D/s community. Just cause it isn't my thing, doesn't mean it isn't for someone else, nor that it has any less validity than any other activity. It is also true that the number of people who profess things to be repulsive etc., is usually more than the number who actually do find it repulsive, especially when in company of those who close their minds to anything but what they themselves find hot.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2404/2348115271_546c815fd4_t.jpgCatalina

 

[HottieMama]

I'm calling the Wichita community the members of the Wichita KS munch group, which is about 300+ people right now. (Wichita KS as well as the surrounding areas.)

i'm not saying it isn't "weird." All i am saying is that this Top has quite an audience for what he "does."

 

[catalina_francisco]

To the vast majority it is deviant, sick and fucking wierd.

A lot of people in the mainstream would describe BDSM and associated kinks just this way....or being gay....or mixed race/religion marriages etc. Does it make it so? I don't think so. Does it mean it is not their thing? Possibly.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2266/2355544990_5f67eba003_t.jpg Catalina

 

[BiBunny]

*Sigh* Y'all do realize that going through what is essentially a "my kink is not as disgusting as your kink" exercise is useless, right? To most people, we're all a bunch of gross, nasty perverts. I don't think Least Sick of the Sick People is much of an award to aspire to, in my opinion. It's kind of like saying, "Well, we both have incurable STDs, but since you've got full-blown AIDS, and I've only got HIV, then I'm somehow less sick (in the diseased sense) than you are."

But then I'm proud to be a gross, nasty pervert, so I suppose it doesn't matter that much does it?

 

[catalina_francisco]

*Sigh* Y'all do realize that going through what is essentially a "my kink is not as disgusting as your kink" exercise is useless, right? To most people, we're all a bunch of gross, nasty perverts. I don't think Least Sick of the Sick People is much of an award to aspire to, in my opinion. It's kind of like saying, "Well, we both have incurable STDs, but since you've got full-blown AIDS, and I've only got HIV, then I'm somehow less sick (in the diseased sense) than you are."

But then I'm proud to be a gross, nasty pervert, so I suppose it doesn't matter that much does it?

LOL, that is why I warned Sweet Gigi near the begining of the thread....it always descends into this type discussion when brought up here, and thus not likely to get too deep a conversation from most.

Catalina

 

[Essene]

*Sigh* Y'all do realize that going through what is essentially a "my kink is not as disgusting as your kink" exercise is useless, right? To most people, we're all a bunch of gross, nasty perverts. I don't think Least Sick of the Sick People is much of an award to aspire to, in my opinion. It's kind of like saying, "Well, we both have incurable STDs, but since you've got full-blown AIDS, and I've only got HIV, then I'm somehow less sick (in the diseased sense) than you are."

But then I'm proud to be a gross, nasty pervert, so I suppose it doesn't matter that much does it?

 

[RawHumor]

I'm a bit confused about the logic of saying that a dog who mounts a woman is doing so without its own consent.

He's getting himself off on his bitch. It feels good to him. He's trying to get off.

 

[YourCaptor]

A few animals have fallen in love with me. I think its kind of cute, but never had the urge to be sexually involved. I can see it happening though.

I think bestiality is fine, there are far worse things people do to animals. Like the mass farming of cows and pigs. Or those people that over feed their pets, or keep them looked up in a backyard all their life.

There is the potential for abuse, but really, most animals are rather capable and can defend themselves in rape situations.

Also bestiality can be other things then just copulation. For example somebody who is in love or lust with a small animal may cuddle with it while using a dildo or a pocket pussy.

Personally I think an interspecies couple can a beautiful thing, and if it’s a kink, then as long as the animal is into its fine with me.

You could argue this. An animal can't vocalize consent, but if you smear peanut butter on your pink parts and the animal comes over and removes it orally, that's sort of like implied consent. Certainly there's no coercion.

Not advocating or defending here...just philosophizing I guess.

J

Hmm, I would consider the use of peanut butter as non-consent. If the animal did it freely without peanut butter then its consent.

I've been sort of avoiding this thread because I know I'm probably going to get some heat for this, but...

I'm a big carnivore and it takes some SERIOUS convincing for me to look at animals as anything than, well, animals. So the consent thing is a non-issue as far as I'm concerned. I agree that consent is a human concept, and so it does not apply to animals, and trying to make it apply to animals is as stupid as talking to a dog like it understands and treating it like a human (no offense all you dog-lovers).

To me, bestiality is disgusting because its an animal. We are human, so we have sex with humans, not other species. It just seems wrong, unnatural, and disgusting to me on a base level. (Someone is going to compare that to homophobia, right?)

I'm all for everyone doing their own thing, and if someone wants to fuck a horse, okay, I'll just politely avert my eyes.

I am also a big meat eater, but can see how certain animals are more then what you describe. I have spent a lot of time around all sorts of animals, and the way I react to them is with regard to the roll they fulfill.

sort of a rant ahead, sooo

The first animals I was exposed to where sheep dogs and police dogs. Police dogs are highly trained, very lovable and loyal, turn into lethal weapons at command. Sheep dogs are very independent, sometimes they don't even want human affirmation, almost the opposite of police dogs. Then I came into contact with wild animals, deer and wild boar mostly, from which I learned that every animal needs to be treated with different respects. For example you can only admire a dear from afar because they run when you get too close, but with wild boar you only want to be afar or else you got to run and hope to god you make it up a tree in time. Then I got my first pet, a rabbit, I loved it and raised it, my grandfather then butchered it and feed it to me. Both deer and wild boar, I later on encountered in captivity, the trust of deer, and the gentle nature of the boar really surprised me, although you still got to respect their “cultural” rules to avoid misunderstandings.

So, overall I believe that animals should not only be treated separately by species, but also by roll. For example I am very comfortable in having a pet guinea pig, and having another one for lunch. Dogs can be work companions, pets, aggressors, and yes even lovers. However I also believe that species do have their differences, and that certain rolls certain animals should never have. For example cows and pigs should not be mass farmed, yet insects and certain fish can be farmed all day, I really don’t care.

Also one of the main things that I think misguides people into believing humans are separate from animals is that there are no other hominina left on earth. Their use to be a lot of them, it just so happens that we are the only ones left, all others are dead. neanderthal and heidelberg man where the last to go. Yes those where actually species separate from us.

Just out of curiosity, would it be wrong for a human to have had sex with a neanderthal? It would have been beastiality.

 

[JamieB]

I'm a bit confused about the logic of saying that a dog who mounts a woman is doing so without its own consent.

He's getting himself off on his bitch. It feels good to him. He's trying to get off.

Maybe it would be good to stop the dog mid-thrust and ask him if it's okay with him, make sure he's consenting.

J

 

[Essene]

A few animals have fallen in love with me. I think its kind of cute, but never had the urge to be sexually involved. I can see it happening though.

You could argue this. An animal can't vocalize consent, but if you smear peanut butter on your pink parts and the animal comes over and removes it orally, that's sort of like implied consent. Certainly there's no coercion.

Not advocating or defending here...just philosophizing I guess.

J

Hmm, I would consider the use of peanut butter as non-consent. If the animal did it freely without peanut butter then its consent.




.

I know you were being serious, but I just laughed so hard I nearly wet myself!!!

 

[twysted73]

I love black cats but mine looks more like this:

http://www.kispiox.com/thecatandi/images/cat3.jpg

She is my heart and my handle here is really all about her.

Not a bad guess, hmm?
I was very close indeed.

 

[cherokee_dove]

I love black cats but mine looks more like this:

http://www.kispiox.com/thecatandi/images/cat3.jpg

She is my heart and my handle here is really all about her.

Fury, you have a twin to my baby girl; who's asleep on my lap as we speak.

And i agree about the saltiness. My eldest son runs alot. He comes in and goes to give her hugs, and she starts licking his face; which i think reverts back to the "cat cleaning her kittens" feelings within her.

As to beastiality and zoophilia, i could not even think about it with my cat. As someone earlier in the thread said, she is like one of my own kids.

But i have fantasized and read stories about doing it with dogs, but thats as far as it will ever go for me.

In my mind, it does come down to whether or not the animals truly (and yes, i know that word causes uproars in here; but with animals-its a completely different thing IMO) understand and want to do it, or if they are just trained and beaten into doing so for the sake of their lives.