'Man'imal- Where to draw the line?

[Essene]

If we're talking fantasy, rock out with your cock out. If we're talking real life action, I'm with Fi. It's not about a gross out contest, I think when we're talking innnocenty bystanders, which animals are, it crosses a different line. I mean, we're not talking shit or bile or something that's just too gross for me. We're talking about having sex with an animal, a creature that is just capable of conenting to that.

Well if consent can be measured, and also measured legally, would the animal still be an innocent bystander?

Yes, animals hump all sorts of things. But we're not animals. We have minds and are capable of thinking about the consequences of our actions. I suppose one could make the argment that what the horse, or whatever, doesn't know doesn't hurt him. But by that logic, would you fuck an individual of diminished intellectual capacity?

I have a sibling of diminished intellectual capacity. She still knows what sex is, and it still interests her. She also understands most of the consequences to her actions.

In some states, 14 is legal. And, honestly, I think you're being kind in saying that our brains are fully developed as early as 21.

I agree with you on it being okay to have ethics. You aren't forcing them on anyone by stating your ethical position either.

Yup. *nod*

I'd also argue that the age of consent is nothing but an arbitrary number. I know people twice my age who still shouldn't be "consenting" to sex because they really aren't capable, but it's none of my business.

It's fine for something to offend YOU. If you don't like it, don't do it. Simple as that. There are things I don't do because I don't like them, too. Bestiality is one of those things, actually. I'm simply not interested in it.

What I find objectionable is the idea that there should be some kind of community standard as to what's "right" and what's "wrong," and that all of us are supposed to adhere to it. And while I'm not going to go do something illegal because I have no desire to be arrested (thanks, anyway, though), I don't think the issue of legality necessarily covers it, either. It's still illegal to sell sex toys in Alabama, for example. *Shrug*

This is why I don't use sex toys.

I just think that idea of The Community passing judgment on what its members are "allowed" to do and not "allowed" to do and what is condoned and isn't condoned, based on what the majority of them think is "icky," is rather ironic and maybe a bit hypocritical. Go ask a roomful of vanillas if it's ok for a man to mark a woman with a brand and watch 'em tell you how sick it is.

I'm not going to continue this discussion anymore because I don't see how it can possibly end well.

Agreed.

 

[Caitlynne]

LOL, based on past experiences of this topic in this forum, I would suspect you are not going to get any revelations and admissions of anything too meaty from most of those who have ventured in such directions. Never know though, given we have a lot of masochists, perhaps some will reveal their dark secrets for the expected payoff.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3124/2347648485_5ee5a93d8e_t.jpg Catalina

Yep. This discussion went/is going the same as all the others. Sometimes consistency is a good thing. Sometimes not.

 

[Betticus]

Yep. This discussion went/is going the same as all the others. Sometimes consistency is a good thing. Sometimes not.

I've yet to see proof that todays ages of consent are better than the ones in the dark ages. Also, who cares if the animal "consented". Fuck him, he's a slave to his human masters and will do whatever he's forced to do. Then he'll lick his dick clean, eat some kibble and get over it.

 

[Essene]

I've yet to see proof that todays ages of consent are better than the ones in the dark ages. Also, who cares if the animal "consented". Fuck him, he's a slave to his human masters and will do whatever he's forced to do. Then he'll lick his dick clean, eat some kibble and get over it.

*blink* Someone's in a Toppy mood tonight.

 

[Caitlynne]

I've yet to see proof that todays ages of consent are better than the ones in the dark ages. Also, who cares if the animal "consented". Fuck him, he's a slave to his human masters and will do whatever he's forced to do. Then he'll lick his dick clean, eat some kibble and get over it.

I might be missing something, but what did your response have to do with my comments? Inquiring cait's want to know, because my comments were only about the content of the thread being predictable because of past discussions on this topic. I didn't make any comment about consent or animals etc at all.

I'm not being sarcastic or denigrative here about any comments already here. I'm merely pointing out that this topic follows the same path every time. It begins with a modicum of acceptance on the fantasy level, then graduates to the ick factor and consent factor, then to the universal opinion that it is a BIG taboo, and eventually it might even land on the "it's not even BDSM at all" square.

Honestly, does anyone really think someone would come around this thread with any actual experience or outright taboo fantasies to share? Even us kinksters say it is taboo, imagine how deep in the closet these people must be.

Anyway, I was only commenting on the genesis of the topic, nothing more.

 

[Homburg]

I'm not being sarcastic or denigrative here about any comments already here. I'm merely pointing out that this topic follows the same path every time. It begins with a modicum of acceptance on the fantasy level, then graduates to the ick factor and consent factor, then to the universal opinion that it is a BIG taboo, and eventually it might even land on the "it's not even BDSM at all" square.

*snort*

 

[Essene]

I might be missing something, but what did your response have to do with my comments? Inquiring cait's want to know, because my comments were only about the content of the thread being predictable because of past discussions on this topic. I didn't make any comment about consent or animals etc at all.

I'm not being sarcastic or denigrative here about any comments already here. I'm merely pointing out that this topic follows the same path every time. It begins with a modicum of acceptance on the fantasy level, then graduates to the ick factor and consent factor, then to the universal opinion that it is a BIG taboo, and eventually it might even land on the "it's not even BDSM at all" square.

Honestly, does anyone really think someone would come around this thread with any actual experience or outright taboo fantasies to share? Even us kinksters say it is taboo, imagine how deep in the closet these people must be.

Anyway, I was only commenting on the genesis of the topic, nothing more.

Well Cait, I agree, and I understand your original comment. Betticus who is normally more fluff and cookies is apparently wound up tonight. Might have something to do with the posts on the consent thread.

 

[Betticus]

I might be missing something, but what did your response have to do with my comments? Inquiring cait's want to know, because my comments were only about the content of the thread being predictable because of past discussions on this topic. I didn't make any comment about consent or animals etc at all.

I'm not being sarcastic or denigrative here about any comments already here. I'm merely pointing out that this topic follows the same path every time. It begins with a modicum of acceptance on the fantasy level, then graduates to the ick factor and consent factor, then to the universal opinion that it is a BIG taboo, and eventually it might even land on the "it's not even BDSM at all" square.

Honestly, does anyone really think someone would come around this thread with any actual experience or outright taboo fantasies to share? Even us kinksters say it is taboo, imagine how deep in the closet these people must be.

Anyway, I was only commenting on the genesis of the topic, nothing more.

Ok. I think it would be hot to get a huge german shepherd and to train him to rape women. To hunt them, corner them, tear their clothes off, intimidate them and then to rape them.

All for my own personal satisfaction.

 

[Caitlynne]

Well Cait, I agree, and I understand your original comment. Betticus who is normally more fluff and cookies is apparently wound up tonight. Might have something to do with the posts on the consent thread.

Oh cool. I can deal with the grumpy Dom explanation.

 

[Betticus]

Well Cait, I agree, and I understand your original comment. Betticus who is normally more fluff and cookies is apparently wound up tonight. Might have something to do with the posts on the consent thread.

I posted that one after reading this thread. Consent isn't really my problem, it's hers. She can consent to accept what's happening to her or not, that's her problem.

 

[Essene]

Ok. I think it would be hot to get a huge german shepherd and to train him to rape women. To hunt them, corner them, tear their clothes off, intimidate them and then to rape them.

All for my own personal satisfaction.

I so should not be laughing at this comment!!!!

 

[Essene]

I posted that one after reading this thread. Consent isn't really my problem, it's hers. She can consent to accept what's happening to her or not, that's her problem.

Evil evil! ROFL

So inappropriate!!!

 

[Caitlynne]

Ok. I think it would be hot to get a huge german shepherd and to train him to rape women. To hunt them, corner them, tear their clothes off, intimidate them and then to rape them.

All for my own personal satisfaction.

Not so grumpy after all are you.

 

[Betticus]

Not so grumpy after all are you.

I understand the concept of consent on a logical level. It's something we do in order to stay out of jail.

 

[SweetGigi]

While this thread is probably taking the same turn as all the others on this subject before it, I could not find anything like it in the Library. I have never taken part in such a conversation, and wanted to pick the brains of others here about the subject. The only reason I made the thread was out of curiousity and a lack of information already here.

 

[JMohegan]

If animals were actually given a choice, very few of them would have anything to do with human beings. Horny stallions wouldn't hump water buckets; they'd be free to fuck mares instead.

Animals suffer for human entertainment all over the world, every day. Rabbits bred and raised in cages to amuse toddlers. Dolphins trapped and trained to make audiences oooh & ahhh, while lining the pockets of Sea World's corporate parent. Etc.

None of this is ethically sound, in my opinion. But I do find it darkly amusing, in a very wry sort of a way, that society draws a line at sexual contact. The idea that peanut butter on pink bits to entice a cat is taboo, but caging a bird meant for the rain forest canopy is somehow okay. On the spectrum of fucked-up human reasoning, that ranks near the top.

 

[intothewoods]

Well if consent can be measured, and also measured legally, would the animal still be an innocent bystander?

I've had little sleep, so it may just be me, but I don't understand the question.

I have a sibling of diminished intellectual capacity. She still knows what sex is, and it still interests her. She also understands most of the consequences to her actions.

Of course, she's human. I was painting with broad strokes, and was not trying to imply that people with diminished capacities (a huge category of course) or animals do not understand the consequences of their actions.

My real concern is a person who controls a situation to their advantage without the full consent or understanding and full comprehension of whoever is on the receiving end.

 

[JamieB]

Much of this thread regarding age of consent and animal sex assumes that there's something inherently damaging about the act of sex itself that can scar and damage a person or animal. How utterly ludicrous.

Animals are fucking disgusting. Do you really believe that the same dog who willingly eats his own shit and vomit and masturbates on the carpet while you're watching Jeopardy! will be emotionally damaged by the opportunity to have sex with a human? Good lord people. We're transferring our own human taboos and revulsions onto an animal who is incapable of revulsion or taboo.

I mean honestly, do you really believe that, in the context of sex with a human, an animal is thinking "Oh my goodness, here comes that guy again. I have to do what he says, but oh this is terrible! It's so wrong because he's a human and I'm a sheep! I'm powerless to stop it! I feel so dirty! Oh so very dirty and humiliated! I'll never be the same again! My mother will know it as soon as she sees me! How will I be able to face her after his? I can hear all the other sheep muttering under their breath....'human fucker!' Oh I just want to die!"

I grant you the sheep may be unwilling, but if that's the case I suspect her thoughts are more like, "Hey. Quit it." To an animal, sex is just sex and maybe an opportunity to rise in the social hierarchy. WE are the ones who are fucked up about it.

And as for the age of consent, think about this: Who's better off, a 16 year old who runs off with a 21 year old and they have babies and build a life together...or a 35 year old woman who keeps falling for bad-boy types who use her and kick her to the curb? The 16/21 year old example isn't common now, true. Odds are the 21 year old would be arrested and thrown in jail for felony statutory rape. But it was pretty much the norm up until about 80 years ago. Are we so much smarter now, or just different?

</rant>

J

 

[catalina_francisco]

While this thread is probably taking the same turn as all the others on this subject before it, I could not find anything like it in the Library. I have never taken part in such a conversation, and wanted to pick the brains of others here about the subject. The only reason I made the thread was out of curiousity and a lack of information already here.

It's not a problem as some day it may not take such turns, just thought I would warn early on incase it got as out of hand as it usually does, and which some have suffered for in the past. This time it has remained rather civilised with many more people being open to the discussion, so perhaps just as conversations about scat and piss play have moved from flame material to acceptable conversation topics here, so this seems to be moving slowly in a similar direction.

Catalina

 

[catalina_francisco]

Much of this thread regarding age of consent and animal sex assumes that there's something inherently damaging about the act of sex itself that can scar and damage a person or animal. How utterly ludicrous.

Animals are fucking disgusting. Do you really believe that the same dog who willingly eats his own shit and vomit and masturbates on the carpet while you're watching Jeopardy! will be emotionally damaged by the opportunity to have sex with a human? Good lord people. We're transferring our own human taboos and revulsions onto an animal who is incapable of revulsion or taboo.

I mean honestly, do you really believe that, in the context of sex with a human, an animal is thinking "Oh my goodness, here comes that guy again. I have to do what he says, but oh this is terrible! It's so wrong because he's a human and I'm a sheep! I'm powerless to stop it! I feel so dirty! Oh so very dirty and humiliated! I'll never be the same again! My mother will know it as soon as she sees me! How will I be able to face her after his? I can hear all the other sheep muttering under their breath....'human fucker!' Oh I just want to die!"

I grant you the sheep may be unwilling, but if that's the case I suspect her thoughts are more like, "Hey. Quit it." To an animal, sex is just sex and maybe an opportunity to rise in the social hierarchy. WE are the ones who are fucked up about it.

And as for the age of consent, think about this: Who's better off, a 16 year old who runs off with a 21 year old and they have babies and build a life together...or a 35 year old woman who keeps falling for bad-boy types who use her and kick her to the curb? The 16/21 year old example isn't common now, true. Odds are the 21 year old would be arrested and thrown in jail for felony statutory rape. But it was pretty much the norm up until about 80 years ago. Are we so much smarter now, or just different?

</rant>

J

Perfectly said, and the bolded part just gave me a good laugh visualising it.

Catalina

 

[Homburg]

I mean honestly, do you really believe that, in the context of sex with a human, an animal is thinking "Oh my goodness, here comes that guy again. I have to do what he says, but oh this is terrible! It's so wrong because he's a human and I'm a sheep! I'm powerless to stop it! I feel so dirty! Oh so very dirty and humiliated! I'll never be the same again! My mother will know it as soon as she sees me! How will I be able to face her after his? I can hear all the other sheep muttering under their breath....'human fucker!' Oh I just want to die!"

Well, the sheep's limited cognition is probably focusing on that whole ruptured vaginal cavity issue. There are physical incompatibility issues inherent to certain types of human-animal pairings.

 

[SweetGigi]

Yes, I agree. The evolution of this conversation is telling. I am glad I started the thread.


And can I just say that I just *squee'd* a bit while reading Jamie's rant?


I less than three you now.

 

[catalina_francisco]

Well, the sheep's limited cognition is probably focusing on that whole ruptured vaginal cavity issue. There are physical incompatibility issues inherent to certain types of human-animal pairings.

This is true. Wasn't it Mr. Hands (Kenneth Pinyan) who died from a perforated colon after one of his encounters with a horse? Interestingly he did it in Washington where bestiality is not actually illegal. Amusingly, it is also not illegal in Oz's political capital, Canberra, where it has always been legal for prostitution, pot smoking and porn long before the rest of the country. And politicians say they work so hard!! Maybe a different type of hard to what we all thought they were referring.

Oh, Black Leicester Longwool sheep have also been part of the cognitive research I was talking about earlier, and they have been shown to recognise individual faces and have incredible long term memory in terms of remembering whose face is whose. They also can differentiate between and angry and happy expression, but prefer happy ones which researchers say is sophisticated cognitive ability which may be relevent in research into understanding some human disorders.

Catalina

 

[faeriefire]

I guess what confuses me about bestiality as I don't see what the animal gets out of it. The D/s couple work together in a cycle of give and take that fulfills both on some level. Sex with an animal seems selfish to me because it's fulfilling the human both physically and mentally (get to explore desires/kinks) whereas the animal might get his rocks off but there's no meeting of the minds.

I also grew up on a farm with all sorts of critters and yeah, the goats, sheep, pigs, and horses are always humping each other. But I bet if you put one of them in a pen with a human and another of their own ilk they wouldn't choose to approach the human unless s/he had a bribe in hand. If they were still in the wild, our pets would run from us at the first whiff of our scent on the wind. Instinctually animals do not trust humans. Trust can be built and nurtured but it's a paternalistic relationship...I give you food, water and a warm bed, you repay me by serving as a pet, companion, livestock, status symbol, source of income, fleece producer, meat, etc.

Many native american tribes idolized certain animals, granting them great status and importance because they were needed for survival. When a bison was killed vital organs were eaten first and the spirit was released through ritual, dance and celebration. I think it's too bad we've moved away from acknowledging how interdependent we are on the animals in our lives. I don't know if on a higher moral plane bestiality is right or wrong. I do know that I can't imagine actually acting on such fantasies myself. I like animals too much, and some I've met are incredibly smart. But then they don't turn me on either

 

[intothewoods]

Much of this thread regarding age of consent and animal sex assumes that there's something inherently damaging about the act of sex itself that can scar and damage a person or animal. How utterly ludicrous.

Just speaking for myself, that is not an underlying assumption for me.

Animals are fucking disgusting. Do you really believe that the same dog who willingly eats his own shit and vomit and masturbates on the carpet while you're watching Jeopardy! will be emotionally damaged by the opportunity to have sex with a human? Good lord people. We're transferring our own human taboos and revulsions onto an animal who is incapable of revulsion or taboo.

I mean honestly, do you really believe that, in the context of sex with a human, an animal is thinking "Oh my goodness, here comes that guy again. I have to do what he says, but oh this is terrible! It's so wrong because he's a human and I'm a sheep! I'm powerless to stop it! I feel so dirty! Oh so very dirty and humiliated! I'll never be the same again! My mother will know it as soon as she sees me! How will I be able to face her after his? I can hear all the other sheep muttering under their breath....'human fucker!' Oh I just want to die!"

Funny, but no. It's part of a broader philosophy on my part about human's responsibility to animals. JMo touched on it, and maybe without that explanaion, my comments are lost. Because no, I'm not planning on starting a support group for dog rape victims.

I love the sneer which some posters do not bother to hide. Oh, lowly un-evolved bdsm amateur.

I grant you the sheep may be unwilling, but if that's the case I suspect her thoughts are more like, "Hey. Quit it." To an animal, sex is just sex and maybe an opportunity to rise in the social hierarchy. WE are the ones who are fucked up about it.

And as for the age of consent, think about this: Who's better off, a 16 year old who runs off with a 21 year old and they have babies and build a life together...or a 35 year old woman who keeps falling for bad-boy types who use her and kick her to the curb? The 16/21 year old example isn't common now, true. Odds are the 21 year old would be arrested and thrown in jail for felony statutory rape. But it was pretty much the norm up until about 80 years ago. Are we so much smarter now, or just different?

</rant>

J

I don't know that statutory rape laws do all that much good. It's really not what I'm concerned about. Life expectancies were different 80 years ago.

As for the rest, I'm going to say that I don't have to choose between being a 16 year old who runs off with a 21 year old and makes babies, or a 35 year old who keeps falling for bad boy types. Hurrah.