Married But Frustrated in West Michigan

[n-erasmus]

Marriage, sex, and love

Ok, here comes the flood of stuff, my thoughts on what is what and why.

I think that marriage is a SOCIAL thing that involves getting and raising children, and putting a structure around people. It does not have much to do with sex at all. It has to do with working, bringing bucks home to the family, and providing a "safe" place for all in the family.

Somehow we Americans have come to think that marriage is the outcome of romantic love, and that sex is too. Big mistake. For most of us sex changes a *LOT* on marriage, and then even *MORE* when a child arrives. The sex fades, the bills grow front and center. And the chores. This is *WORK* not pleasure, and a long way from the sex we saw stretching out endlessly in front of us ... "and they lived happily ever after...".

Ooops. As couples, if we *BOTH* don't make a major effort, sex starts to pick up the smell of the dirty laundry rather than flowers. It gets done in the same way the laundry does. It is a chore.

I do not want to be a dirty pair of underwear! I *FEEL* like I am fucked in the same way my underwear gets washed. Dutifully.

I would prefer *DIRTY*, plain hard lust and fucking -- hard human passion. And I don't really care any more what it takes to get that. Mostly in my mind, unfortunately. But I *NEED* more.

THere. That is where I am right now, and I think many of you. WHat a spot!

 

[Mr_Eightball]

Re: Marriage, sex, and love

n-erasmus,

You know what? You are absolutely right.

For my wife and I, sex and love came years before marriage. And sex had dwindled significantly before I ever asked her to marry me. So shame on me for that. But the love is still there and as a social unit, we are great. But I don't regret that and I would do it again.

I think for a lot of women (and men) marriage is a sort of security blanket. You know that, at the end of the day, that person is there waiting for you. But if you rely on it too much, your security blanket becomes more like a suffocating piece of saran wrap.

And you are right: Buck it up or F*** it up. Those are the two options available to all of us. I've been bucking it up for years, as have many of you. How's that working out for ya?

Seriously, when you had the tough talks, done the counseling, covered every inch of emotional ground...was any progress made that lasted more than a couple of weeks?

No.

Why? Because you can't change people! At the core of who my wife is, she isn't going to change any more than I am. And I shouldn't want her to. So sex isn't going to improve for us. End of freakin' story. And maybe that is o.k.

Am I willing to leave her to persue sex? No. Because I'm still not going to find the social and sexual aspects in one place. I don't want to create new holes to fill one. And I need my security blanket as much as she needs hers. I simply need the human touch - comfort in someone's arms. She doesn't. And whether that takes the form of romantic notions or animal lust, we all cannot live without it. If you don't meet your needs, you will drink, smoke, overeat, have an affair, etc. It will not fix itself. Depression and anxiety follows.

Am I willing to try "alternatives"? At this point, yes I am. Given my options of hurting my wife or possibly hurting my wife - I'm opting for door number 2. It is the least invasive.

Worst case scenario: I find comfort in the arms of another woman, get found out, get divorced. Notice I'm not mentioning money or posessions there. I could care less about that.

Best case scenario: I get freakin' happy! My needs get met, my wife's needs are met, someone elses needs are being met. My self-esteem and self-worth improve. I'm not depressed and anxious every day.

I'm still not advocating affairs as a solution to marital problems. This is such a complex and personal choice that we each have to make. And I urge anyone thinking about it to put forth the effort to try every other possible avenue before going there. For me, it isn't about promiscuity or flings. I, personally, need a physical "relationship" with someone. I can't have a one night stand because I'm just not wired that way. I have to know the person and trust them - a lot. That alone has kept me from having an affair this long.

And if and when I find this elusive "other" person, safe sex will be a given. The goal is to solve one problem, not create new ones. I think you still can and need to be responsible for your actions. And be willing to be held accountable.

Anyone else care to chime in on this? Devil's advocate (like he needs more of them)?

"8"

 

[CatEyes]

Since I know chances are I can't solve this problem and yes I can have an affair. Been there, done that, will do it again. There is some guilt though and a chance of getting caught and the posibility of hurting someone you really don't want to hurt.

My one wish is that someday my husband will come to me and say he wants to have an open marriage.

*sigh*

CatEyes

 

[pjwalsh]

Hey 8

 

[Dr. Groove]

Rant.

I've been watching and reading for a while, and figured it was time to pitch in. I'll try to be brief.

My feelings are that loyalty as a concept is much broader than fidelity. I made vows to be loyal to my partner, meaning that no matter what, I intend to stay and make things work. I personally don't think that has to imply fidelity. If we have a fight, I'll still be here. If we have no money, I'll still be here. If you are sick, I'll still be here. If you sleep with someone else, I'll still be here. If I sleep with someone else, I'll still be here.

I am a huge flirt, and to top it off, the sex-life at home has come to a grinding halt.

It makes me crazy, and think about sex all the time. On top of it, I really enjoy meeting and getting to know people in general, especially women.

Blah, blah blah. What I hate about his whole scenario and our culture is that when I bring up a subject like this, it is immediately classified as rationalization and I'm categorized as a cheating pig. The thing that chaps my ass, is that the categorization comes from being honest and loyal. Down the road there's some guy lying to his girlfriend, lying to his wife, telling them both he'll leave the other and never addressing the real nuts and bolts of his situation, and women fall over the promises he makes them and think they're special. "Its different, he's in a bad marriage and plans to leave." BLECH.

I'm in a great marriage and we have no plans on ever leaving each other. I also enjoy flirtation, meeting women and occasionally kissing them. I never promise them anything more, nor do I hide my situation. I also refuse to discredit my wonderful wife by inviting any of these women to discuss the details of my marriage.

Divorce, or threatening or even promising divorce is much less loyal than infidelity.

So there, I've said it.

Thank you for listening.

 

[Mr_Eightball]

Re: Rant

Dr. Groove,

Well said!

You are completely right about being labeled as soon as you start talking about these things - be you a man or woman. It is easier for people to do that than think about it. And someone who hasn't been in my shoes has a hard time standing in them, yet a very easy time pointing the pious finger. I used to be that person. It was easy to look down from the moral high-ground when my needs were met. I'm not so smug anymore, and I feel ashamed for having been so.

If I were a selfish person, I would have left years ago. If all I wanted was sex, I would have left years ago (or at least cheated). I know these things about myself regardless of how I appear to the uninitiated. I'm not looking to "spice up" my life, I'm just hoping to have one that is complete. I don't necessarily need extra-marital sex, but I do need human interaction. Everyone does. Cripes, just being kissed once in a while.

I'm not rationalizing why having an affair is o.k. It's not o.k. It is a symptom of a larger problem that has no better solution. In fact, I've been rationalizing for years why I had to stay celibate and faithful. I've been telling myself anything I could think of so that I could go on propping myself up and being a good martyr. I've been so obsessed with not hurting my wife that I am doing great harm to myself. She sees that pain and it affects us. I'm not saving anyone. I'm not rationalizing - anymore.

Like you, I do have loyalty to my wife (and then some). And if I manage to find someone to share some intimacy with, she will know I'm married - and happily. She'll know that I have no intentions of leaving my wife. In fact, it would be ideal if she were in the same situation and we could give that to each other. A single woman can't find a complete life with a married man and visa versa. And I will not hurt someone else to make myself feel better.

Also, I will NOT engage in wife bashing. I have some friends who are like that and it sickens me. I don't bash on strangers, I'm certainly not going to do it to my wife. As far as I'm concerned, my wife has done nothing wrong - and neither have I. We have been wonderful to each other. We have been ourselves. And we will continue.

Anytime I've spoken of these things to a close friend, the first thing they do is throw "For better or worse" back at me. Like, "Shut up, man. You promised." Yes, I took those vows. But we also vowed "To have and to hold". The "have" is working quite nicely, but the "hold" is missing.

You know what the problem with those vows is? They subscribe to the same "Happily ever after" philosophy that just doesn't fly in reality. The standard vows needed to be re-written about a thousand years ago, shortly after the average life expectancy exceeded 30.

And I agree - our culture creates an image of falling in love, getting married, and everything being great. You've seen the movies and commercials. It's not unlike the image of a super model. Yeah, they look great, but odds are you will never look like that. And in fact, it isn't healthy to look like that. Is it healthy to be married like that? Or even possible? Not for the majority of us.

And yeah, I get really frustrated when I'm being completely, dead-nuts honest about how and what I feel and some schmuck tells me I'm wrong for feeling that way. Do you get to choose how you feel? Do you get to choose who you love? Or find attractive? Can you concsiously decide not to jerk your knee when the doctor hits it with the little rubber mallet? None of the above. But you aren't supposed to let on. You need to fit into the neat little puzzle. If that means self-deprivation, so be it. Otherwise, you are "bad".

I actually felt better after having read your post. You know why? Because I realized that I'm actually being honest with myself for the first time in my life. I've been open and honest with my wife about our situation and my needs. And she may actually be the one person I know who could understand it and still accept me. I'm not living a lie - I'm ending one. And I'm not doing it with just myself in mind.

Well, once again, I've rambled on. Some people will read this and still call it a "rationalization". But I have an experiment for them to try...

Give your spouse a gallon of water. Tell them that they can show it to you and you can be near it, but you can't have any. Oh, and by the way - you can't have any from anywhere else either. You are only allowed to drink this water and I'm not going to give you any. See what happens.

Find me a rational solution to that, then you get to be on Oprah.

"8"

 

[Mr_Eightball]

Re: Hey There

PJ,

It just dawned on me that you suggested a spouse bashing party and I had just bashed on spouse bashing. That wasn't aimed at you.

I think you had a good idea about just forming our own little group and sticking it to the counselors.

Anyway, didn't want you thinking I was hacking on ya.

"8"

 

[n-erasmus]

Do *I* count in this mess ??

It does help not to be alone in suffering.

It does help to be a member of a family.

It does *NOT* help to be told to sacrifice myself for the benefit of ... (fill in the blank with any of a number of obvious candidates)

I think dishonesty is wrong. I think hurting people intentionally is wrong. So ... what do you do?? The social answer is "suffer". Always easy to say someone else should "suffer". I do not want to, sorry.

So -- I guess I flirt more than I should. Maybe I play physically with someone else, without lying. Hoping not to hurt *ANYONE*. A fool's game? Certainly as old as marriage is, I think. I would guess there may be big trouble waiting. But I am sitting in big trouble NOW. Misery.

 

[Guest]

You are such a sexy man Mr Eightball!

It is such a shame that such a sexy and loving man is not getting all he needs and wants. If I were with a man as hot as you or as horney as you, I would play until you begged me to stop. We would never get anything done except for pleasing each other.
WOW your hot.

 

[KlownsToTheLeft]

Re: I know the feeling

Sex twice a month is ok for him. He believes when sex does arise it is only for the bedroom. God forbid if I want to give him a handjob in the car or yes even in a booth in a resturant...But he WILL NOT go down on me.

You're guy's a B., and so's my wife she's the same way. I would go to grave never having sex again, if she could stand my anger and fury, when she withholds.

 

[Elizabeth]

Re: Re: I know the feeling

You're guy's a B., and so's my wife she's the same way. I would go to grave never having sex again, if she could stand my anger and fury, when she withholds.

huh?

 

[Backyard sweaty]

uhhh

It is such a shame that such a sexy and loving man is not getting all he needs and wants. If I were with a man as hot as you or as horney as you, I would play until you begged me to stop. We would never get anything done except for pleasing each other.

EGAD!!!!!!!!! "8" is sexy???????

 

[pjwalsh]

hey all

 

[Backyard sweaty]

Lots PJ

It makes lots of sense PJ and I know from me I feel the same. And between you and I (and all the rest of you that will read this).........I have said before and I still maintain.......95% feel the same way they just won't admit it.

After speaking with your s/o and chatting with the "experts" all to no avail.......what's left?

 

[Mr_Eightball]

Re: You are such a sexy man Mr Eightball!

Wanttoplayx,

Wow! Thanks for the glowing review. Do you live nearby? LOL

Yeah, I'm beginning to realize that I'm an o.k. person. What I want and need isn't a bad/wrong thing. It's just a matter of going about addressing it in the best way possible. I've thought about it and talked about it until I'm blue in the face. Time to begin DOING something.

Horny is not a strong enough word. I have years of pent up emotions and drive just waiting to be unleashed onto some poor woman who didn't know what she was getting into. LOL

It felt surprisingly good to be told that I'm "hot". Especially since you can't see me. LOL. I haven't been told that in a long time. Thanks!

Chalk up one for self-esteem!

"8"

 

[pjwalsh]

 

[n-erasmus]

Slam bam!

Well pj, it happens so fast because a frustrated, horny man has a hard time getting past the 5 minute mark after a draught. Mostly, it is the *SECOND* pass that gets more human and less animal, imho.

We in this group are *ALL* going to be climbing the walls for a long time to come. I don't believe there *IS* a cure, but there *ARE* palliatives -- . Known as close encounters of the unfamiliar, opposite kind.

Good luck. And I suggest a little extra-curricular fun seeking for you.

 

[Backyard sweaty]

I'm trying PJ

I thought that a fairly attractive, fairly intelligent, average heigthed dude salavating all over himself waiting for you to come down to this "neck-o-the-woods" was somewhat of an ego boost.

And really the salavating only happens when I'm near you or see your name, otherwise it is controlled very well, honest.

Thats sounds like a heck of a "boost" to me.

 

[prettylady]

Got the same problem here in Austin, TX. I guess i'm not alone!!
Once every three weeks is great for my hubby...
Not sure what the answer is----let's keep chatting everyone, I need some ideas about how to relieve my sexual tension!!

 

[SnowMedic]

Relief!

my source of relief is here PrettyLady...it works great for me in the "down" time in between the real thing!

-SnowMedic

 

[jack01]

Re: Slam bam!

Well pj, it happens so fast because a frustrated, horny man has a hard time getting past the 5 minute mark after a draught.

Been there, done that. Abstenance does not make for good sex. Bad sex leads to no sex leads to worse sex. Habits long learned become real disincentives. A death spiral. You get the picture.

Prettylady, welcome aboard.

 

[pjwalsh]

I thought that a fairly attractive, fairly intelligent, average heigthed dude salavating all over himself waiting for you to come down to this "neck-o-the-woods" was somewhat of an ego boost.

And really the salavating only happens when I'm near you or see your name, otherwise it is controlled very well, honest.

Thats sounds like a heck of a "boost" to me.

 

[Backyard sweaty]

Well honey here i am and heres the name PJ now show me what you got

You've got mail PJ

 

[LittleSlave]

story

My husband and I have been married 9 years and felt the same as you all do. However, things have changed dramatically. I have a story of how it happened, if you want to e-mail me, I send it to you. (No this is not a solicitation) It's real life, my life. It's too long to put on the board.
Little Slave

 

[pjwalsh]

You've got mail PJ

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