Men & Kink

[Netzach]

If I were a submissive man, I'd be very wary of who I told.

If I were, I'd be wary of HOW I told.

I think a lot of women who are otherwise pretty vanilla are JUST as enamored of the idea of a big strong man who *lives and breathes for her* as they are of one who can sweep her off her feet.

There's an assumption that there's always a submissive mainstream feminine default, but I think there's a fluidity and I think that service and pampering work for a LOT of people very well.

Frame it that way, and I think you could be quite successful.

But people don't really think of that. The imagination of the populace is SO caught up with the senator caught in panties being switched across the backside as the definitive notion of male submission and service. It creates a vacuum of imagination. It's not that male submission to women in the private sphere doesn't exist, it exists all over the place well since the high middle ages and probably before, as soon as it was realized that if we die off there are fewer of everyone, where men can keep spooging on that guy as well as that one.

It's not for lack of possibility, it's for lack of reading/sighting/understanding it.

And let's face it, a lot of guys are self centered. They really want the panties and the switch more than the service to their woman.

 

[WriterDom]

By definition, I think you'd have to be miserable to resort to calling a sex line. Either that's the best you can do, or you are a partner that doesn't accept your needs. Crawling around in panties and wishing for a strap on would probably end many marriages on the spot. And I've dated women who wanted no part of the other side either. A lot of people are perfectly happy being normal.

 

[intothewoods]

If I were, I'd be wary of HOW I told.

I think a lot of women who are otherwise pretty vanilla are JUST as enamored of the idea of a big strong man who *lives and breathes for her* as they are of one who can sweep her off her feet.

There's an assumption that there's always a submissive mainstream feminine default, but I think there's a fluidity and I think that service and pampering work for a LOT of people very well.

Frame it that way, and I think you could be quite successful.

But people don't really think of that. The imagination of the populace is SO caught up with the senator caught in panties being switched across the backside as the definitive notion of male submission and service. It creates a vacuum of imagination. It's not that male submission to women in the private sphere doesn't exist, it exists all over the place well since the high middle ages and probably before, as soon as it was realized that if we die off there are fewer of everyone, where men can keep spooging on that guy as well as that one.

It's not for lack of possibility, it's for lack of reading/sighting/understanding it.

And let's face it, a lot of guys are self centered. They really want the panties and the switch more than the service to their woman.

There isn't a lot of room for fluidity in males, in so many areas - personality, sexuality, sexual identity even. Kind of sucks ass.

 

[Netzach]

By definition, I think you'd have to be miserable to resort to calling a sex line. Either that's the best you can do, or you are a partner that doesn't accept your needs. Crawling around in panties and wishing for a strap on would probably end many marriages on the spot. And I've dated women who wanted no part of the other side either. A lot of people are perfectly happy being normal.

Sometimes they're miserable, sometimes they have an abnormally high sex drive, sometimes confession gets them off itself. They're doing it, calling me to tell me about it, and then doing it again in the evening. I'm certain of it in some cases. Whatever goes on, there's no norm, there's no type, there's no one unifying thing that I can say characterizes it. I can't even say what time of day I'll be busy. But the lonely can't get it to save my life type certainly exists, and sometimes lives to hear me say that.

Of course, I'm perfectly miserable being normal so I tend to seek same. More people are probably in the experimental "let's tie each other up and take turns spanking" world than I am.

 

[Netzach]

There isn't a lot of room for fluidity in males, in so many areas - personality, sexuality, sexual identity even. Kind of sucks ass.

True - I guess because I'm really not attracted to men who can't get past that for whatever reason and be more fluid and want to be more fluid, it seems to me like, get the fuck OVER it.

Be a caveman. Be a drag queen. Be a perfectly well adjusted suit. Life is short. You want tits and a dick, groovy. You want to spank and throatfuck your bitch every night, life is short, do it.

I know that seems uncharitable, but I love three men who brave the consequences of some very suspect choices and so far no one has died, knock wood. That takes balls.

 

[intothewoods]

True - I guess because I'm really not attracted to men who can't get past that for whatever reason and be more fluid and want to be more fluid, it seems to me like, get the fuck OVER it.

Be a caveman. Be a drag queen. Be a perfectly well adjusted suit. Life is short. You want tits and a dick, groovy. You want to spank and throatfuck your bitch every night, life is short, do it.

I know that seems uncharitable, but I love three men who brave the consequences of some very suspect choices and so far no one has died, knock wood. That takes balls.

Heh heh, me too, as a woman choosing a partner. I was in my mom raising a boy headspace though. As someone who was never very interested in male identity issues, it's kind of hard to wrap my head around it sometimes. Hopefully you just let them know you love them whoever they are, and try to model that acceptance of other people and give them the best tools you can (as far as environmental stuff), and it works. I hope! Seriously, I didn't grow up with boys. I guess the ones I know who turned out okay often did so in spite of their nutbar parents though. So maybe I'll just have a drink and fuggedaboutit.

 

[Kowalski2]

Conditions of worth

You're a sicko if you enjoy that.
Normal people don't do that.
You're a bad person.
I'm a bad person.
I'm ashamed of how I feel, and the dirty things in my mind.
'She' (coming at this from a heterosexual male point of view) won't love me/accept me if I tell her the truth about what I want.

And so on, and so on.

There are so many norms in society, and not just around sex that encourage us to stay on the 'straight and narrow'. It is often easier/safer to stay behind a facade, rather than risk showing our true selves. Even to ourselves, because to admit such things to ourselves is to risk loosing self acceptance, and the self image we may have buily up around ourselves that tells us we're 'ok'.

Personally, I've been curious about being fucked with a strap on cock for a while, but I've never admitted that to a friend or partner. Despite some of those partners being more than willing to use fingers or tongues down there, somehow taking that extra step into admitting the more secret fantasy has been a step too far, a risk. I guess I probably would have got there in the end, if the relationships had not ended. The thought process? I guess ultimately it's the hetero male fear that wanting something cock shaped pushed in my anus, even if it's a woman doign the fucking, will mean that people with think I'm secretly gay... Silly, but I guess that's what stopped me if I'm honest.

It's funny, I actually found this thread because I've been developing an interest in another 'sick, bad, naughty, disgusting' sexual act, and I wanted to see if there were any threads on it...

I'm not going to tell you what it is though... yet!

 

[Kowalski2]

Be a caveman. Be a drag queen. Be a perfectly well adjusted suit. Life is short. You want tits and a dick, groovy. You want to spank and throatfuck your bitch every night, life is short, do it.

I love it, so true.

 

[BiBunny]

True - I guess because I'm really not attracted to men who can't get past that for whatever reason and be more fluid and want to be more fluid, it seems to me like, get the fuck OVER it.

Be a caveman. Be a drag queen. Be a perfectly well adjusted suit. Life is short. You want tits and a dick, groovy. You want to spank and throatfuck your bitch every night, life is short, do it.

I know that seems uncharitable, but I love three men who brave the consequences of some very suspect choices and so far no one has died, knock wood. That takes balls.

Ok, first of all, I wanna say thanks to everyone who's participated in this thread. I really appreciate everybody's insight, and I hope to hear even more. I'm not going to address every single response because this thing has really taken off since I went to bed last night. But thanks, everybody.

I am going to address this Netz quote, however. "Get the fuck over it" is kind of my attitude, too. I think it takes a brave sort of man to embrace "it," whatever "it" happens to be for that individual. In my experience, most people (men, women, or otherwise) aren't that courageous. So why the ball-less-ness? I guess that's the heart of this entire thread.

Oh, and to say all men who call me are pathetic is like saying you're pathetic if you go to a therapist because, surely, you have friends to talk to, right? I only brought them up because between them and some people I know in real life, they've really made me think.

 

[Neuromanced]

Back to the original question of what kinks men have, I must admit to having a craving to being tied down, and having my wife bite me until I bleed...

I spend a lot of time wrestling with male egos in work, so it's nice to come home and switch roles for a bit. Losing control of it is good sometimes.

Not always, but the occasional change is nice.

 

[minx1]

I am going to address this Netz quote, however. "Get the fuck over it" is kind of my attitude, too. I think it takes a brave sort of man to embrace "it," whatever "it" happens to be for that individual. In my experience, most people (men, women, or otherwise) aren't that courageous. So why the ball-less-ness? I guess that's the heart of this entire thread.

I would say for a variety of reasons;

Because they are scared of the implications if they 'come out' and embrace it publicly. I can only liken it to myself and I know for a fact that the people I know, in particular work colleagues or associates would frown on it. But more than than that....it could do me some serious damage career wise and I happen to love my job. Many of my friends are ones that I have made through work and again they would have opinions...wrongly so imo, but still, that aside they would have them because of the work implications.

Because as MP said, its private and no one elses business. I know a few people who would fall into this category.

Another reason is I think is maybe because to some its a secret worth keeping and living with. That actually the rest of their life isn't _that_ miserable. Their lives with their families, wives, girlfriends are generally happy ones. Again I know a couple of men who would fall into this category.
Its an important part of them, but perhaps not the part with the strongest driving force; the part on which they place most importance. Perhaps they weigh it up and decide that although its not easy keeping it secret and depriving themselves of certain needs, that they can manage it in certain ways that don't have a negative impact on the rest of their otherwise full lives.


Finally, yes....because some just can't admit it to themselves. Perhaps they think its wrong, immoral. Perhaps its easier to pretend or ignore. Maybe its ignorance in that they don't know what to'do' with the feelings....where to go next. Perhaps with more information, support, confidence they might.*shrugs*

I think there are many, complex reasons why.

 

[priapiscean]

Wow, great thread, BiBunny

For a long-ish time, I kept my kinks in the closet, and as I develop my points, I'm sure some would *still* argue that I'm closeted. But for what it's worth, I'm poly, bi, Dom (though some suggest I'm more Top than Dom, which is why I like PYL). Now these tendencies are recent, and perhaps it's the recent self realization that makes me cautious about outting myself. And, since I've usually associated with vanilla beans, I think I'm reluctant to suddenly say I'm anything but a vanilla bean. What about the relationships I've formed to date? I STILL feel uncomfortable airing certain sides of me around those folks.

But to paraphrase Netzach, I just dealt with it, and made my choices. I'm okay being partly closeted and partly open. I can, of course, be fully open in virtual communities, where identity issues are more ... fluid? And, I attend the occasional munch. I've been more lucky meeting play partners through sheer serendipity than through munches... go figure.

Anyway, this is a thought-provoking thread, because it leads me to introspect a little bit about whether I'm truly happy with my secrecy, or whether it's something I merely feel I have to do.

 

[Netzach]

I would say for a variety of reasons;

Because they are scared of the implications if they 'come out' and embrace it publicly. I can only liken it to myself and I know for a fact that the people I know, in particular work colleagues or associates would frown on it. But more than than that....it could do me some serious damage career wise and I happen to love my job. Many of my friends are ones that I have made through work and again they would have opinions...wrongly so imo, but still, that aside they would have them because of the work implications.

Because as MP said, its private and no one elses business. I know a few people who would fall into this category.

Another reason is I think is maybe because to some its a secret worth keeping and living with. That actually the rest of their life isn't _that_ miserable. Their lives with their families, wives, girlfriends are generally happy ones. Again I know a couple of men who would fall into this category.
Its an important part of them, but perhaps not the part with the strongest driving force; the part on which they place most importance. Perhaps they weigh it up and decide that although its not easy keeping it secret and depriving themselves of certain needs, that they can manage it in certain ways that don't have a negative impact on the rest of their otherwise full lives.


Finally, yes....because some just can't admit it to themselves. Perhaps they think its wrong, immoral. Perhaps its easier to pretend or ignore. Maybe its ignorance in that they don't know what to'do' with the feelings....where to go next. Perhaps with more information, support, confidence they might.*shrugs*

I think there are many, complex reasons why.

It's not exactly a career boost for anybody.

It's not exactly a let's hold hands and sing kumbaya for anybody.

I have to admit a degree of impatience with people unwilling to deal with a level of risk I've personally dealt with. And God, I'm not out in my professional life either, it's a necessity to have some compartments no matter what you do.

But you do have a valid point in that it's a lot less critical to some people than others. That said, kidding yourself is easy, braving general derision is hard. But you're out to yourself, I don't tell everyone I meet either. But you are looking for a relationship that's compatible you aren't scared off by the need to alert people you want to be involved with that you are the way you are - that's another story too. It's another thing to be so terrified of living that you can't even bring yourself to look to meet relational needs.

I'm not even talking about people overhauling marriages and things like that either - I mean when people are out there in the single pool trying to get together, why on earth would you let that chance to get what you need slip past?

 

[BiBunny]

It's not exactly a career boost for anybody.

It's not exactly a let's hold hands and sing kumbaya for anybody. I have to admit a degree of impatience with people unwilling to deal with a level of risk I've personally dealt with.

But you do have a valid point in that it's a lot less critical to some people than others. That said, kidding yourself is easy, braving general derision is hard. But you're out to yourself, I don't tell everyone I meet either. But you are looking for a relationship that's compatible you aren't scared off by the need to alert people you want to be involved with that you are the way you are - that's another story too. It's another thing to be so terrified of living that you can't even bring yourself to look to meet relational needs.

I'm not even talking about people overhauling marriages and things like that either - I mean when people are out there in the single pool trying to get together, why on earth would you let that chance to get what you need slip past?

Yeah, this is exactly the kind of thing I'm talking about. I'm not "out" in the sense that I'm some kind of huge, public kink activist, either. But I figured out a long time ago that a vanilla relationship ain't gonna come anywhere near making me happy. My friends know what I'm into, and I'm the one they come to with questions about sex toys or whatever (or to borrow mine). But, hey, with the career I hope to enter one day, God willing and the creek don't rise, I can't go trumpeting it from the housetops, either.

And, yeah, kidding yourself is easy. I did it for awhile myself. But I know myself well enough that it didn't take me long to realize that I'm not going to lie to myself for the sake of appearances. It hurts too much. When I see people around me throwing themselves into things because they think it's what they're "supposed" to do rather than what they really want or need, I have to wonder what's going on in their heads, especially when I know that they know deep down there's no way in hell it'll ever work out.

 

[Xelebes]

I'll buy that. I just wonder why it's so important to people. I've marched to the beat of my own drummer for as long as I can remember, so I can't quite wrap my brain around it, I guess.

Achieving success puts bread on the table, being kinked doesn't. Well, it can but doesn't guarantee that food gets on the table. If being kinked gets in the way of putting food on the table, then the kinked bit will be downplayed.

 

[Netzach]

Achieving success puts bread on the table, being kinked doesn't. Well, it can but doesn't guarantee that food gets on the table. If being kinked gets in the way of putting food on the table, then the kinked bit will be downplayed.

Indeed. But that's kind of why houses have doors and walls and windowshades, no?

 

[Xelebes]

Indeed. But that's kind of why houses have doors and walls and windowshades, no?

YEs, functionality.

 

[minx1]

It's not exactly a career boost for anybody.


It's not exactly a let's hold hands and sing kumbaya for anybody.

I certainly imagine that to be the case for most.

But you do have a valid point in that it's a lot less critical to some people than others. That said, kidding yourself is easy, braving general derision is hard. But you're out to yourself, I don't tell everyone I meet either. But you are looking for a relationship that's compatible you aren't scared off by the need to alert people you want to be involved with that you are the way you are - that's another story too. It's another thing to be so terrified of living that you can't even bring yourself to look to meet relational needs.

I'm not even talking about people overhauling marriages and things like that either - I mean when people are out there in the single pool trying to get together, why on earth would you let that chance to get what you need slip past?

Well I guess it boils down to courage, fear of the unknown, uncertainty and confidence amongst other things. As a single person it could still be a lack of confidence and feeling out of your depth that stops a person from looking. I guess by default most of us here have bitten the bullet at one time or another; for me it was purely a spur of the moment thing. Although I identified with being submissive, I hadn't acted until I found my way here and found my M and I may never have, had it not been for something that happened in my personal life. I could have continued to pursue vanilla relationships and not considered the alternative, as I imagine many others do.

A single person could still be concerned about the impact on the other areas of their lives should family, friends or colleagues discover them.
I managed to overcome any uncertainty I had, but I can understand why some people may not.

 

[Homburg]

I mean that the equating of femininity with male homosexuality is disproven by hanging out with three bears in a leather family who share a home in about five minutes.

The queer eye minstrel show thing is kind of limiting as community PR.

Gotcha. Yep, my buddy Jim is frikken huge. He could probably toss me around like a dorito. Big guy, big voice, huge, bearded, manly. Doesn't hide the fact that he's gay, but it's not immediately obvious. His partner of many years is basically the same way. Maybe a little more obvious, but not really. Neither one is in any way wimpy. Another guy I know that is the same way is nicknamed Tiny, and, as is usual for that name, is anything but. He built like a lumberjack and football lineman put together. It's a great object lesson.

Actually, most of the gay men I know aren't really all that effeminate. Not all of them are big macho brutes, but very few are that stereotypical poofta. Hanging out at a gay bar on goth night really exposes that for the truth. Most of the gay men there are just guys that happen to dig other guys. And dress better than the het dudes.

---

I am going to address this Netz quote, however. "Get the fuck over it" is kind of my attitude, too. I think it takes a brave sort of man to embrace "it," whatever "it" happens to be for that individual. In my experience, most people (men, women, or otherwise) aren't that courageous. So why the ball-less-ness? I guess that's the heart of this entire thread.

Because the collective frowns on individuality.

 

[satindesire]

*snip*


Because the collective frowns on individuality.

I agree. BUUUT....Pack mentality has kept the human race alive for millenia. It can be very helpful, but i some cases such as pyl/PYL sexuality, it can be harmful.

I think as humans we are evolving so much past our baser instincts that sometimes to bow to the baser desires we have as flesh, makes us feel ashamed that we can't go beyond the pulsing desire between our legs. I mean, look at all the shiny wonderful crap we've invented! Starbucks! Tweezers! Shoelaces! Oh, My!

 

[Homburg]

I agree. BUUUT....Pack mentality has kept the human race alive for millenia. It can be very helpful, but i some cases such as pyl/PYL sexuality, it can be harmful.

I think as humans we are evolving so much past our baser instincts that sometimes to bow to the baser desires we have as flesh, makes us feel ashamed that we can't go beyond the pulsing desire between our legs. I mean, look at all the shiny wonderful crap we've invented! Starbucks! Tweezers! Shoelaces! Oh, My!

See, I can dig that, but, in my pack, my desires are just fine. The problem is that modern reality forces us to interact with other packs, and assert hierarchy within artificial packs (work environments, school, and such). This dorks up that whole pack thought, and produces a pack dynamic far beyond what we were evolved to handle.

 

[YourCaptor]

And in a lot, not all, but many, of those societies we like to hearken back to without actually studying, age trumps all. Old old woman totally outranks young expendable hunter. Old old man outranks everyone.

A lot of patriarchal cultures live very sex-segregated lives that most of us would not find much fun. A woman is more likely to enjoy a savage beating from her mother in law than her husband who she sees once an eon anyway.

I was under the impression that its not the old who are in charge, it’s the dominant individual that is in the later part of adulthood, right around the time when hair begins to gray. The elderly most often have the role of teacher/consultant/advisor, if they are particularly skilled in making something, they are also a master craftsman (person, English *shrugs*).

Marriage is also a rather recent cultural phenomenon that came with farming.

 

[EmpressFi]

I was under the impression that its not the old who are in charge, it’s the dominant individual that is in the later part of adulthood, right around the time when hair begins to gray. The elderly most often have the role of teacher/consultant/advisor, if they are particularly skilled in making something, they are also a master craftsman (person, English *shrugs*).

Marriage is also a rather recent cultural phenomenon that came with farming.

define recent...

 

[Netzach]

Our theories about life in Ur and Egypt, even with all the awesome pictures, are pretty sketchy, let alone what we were doing before then, so pre-farming I'm not sure enters into it. I guess for me, the person who's opinion is asked when things are really at maximum stress level is the person in charge.

 

[rida]

Speaking for my Hubby here. And talking about admitting to himself who/what he really is.

He has always been very emphatic, very talkative about his feelings, very fashionably dressed to the point that many women thought him gay. Gay men never made that mistake but often wished he was. He is totally straight.

He is also very Dominant. But it took him a long time to get comfortable with that part of his personality. While the concept of loving more than one person made sense much more easily.

The way I see it is that, his father was really abusive and violent. And he never wanted to be like him. Admitting his Dominant thought and urges was something that he feared a lot. He feared becoming like his father.

He is now very comfortable with being my Master. It took a failed marriage (his 1st wife was not big into sex or talking about it) and the 4th year crisis of our to get here thou.