morals??? would you compromise?

[TigerClaw]

Please dont get the idea that I believe she shouldnt, has no right to or think she is wrong in any way. NO, I dont believe that. I think a woman breast feeding is a wonderful Motherly thing to be doing.

And no I didnt mean to derail the thread either. I shall abstain from the topic if that is the effect.

Total hijack, but what wrong idea? She isn't molesting a child, or being an exhibitionist, or doing anything illegal (public breastfeeding is legally protected in almost all 50 statesI believe), she's feeding a baby.

I'm not meaning to be snarky, I've just been in the lactivist world long enough that I can't really grasp what on earth anyone could think other than "Awwwwww! What a sweet nursing baby!" LOL

 

[CutieMouse]

*****

 

[graceanne]

Ok, just real quick. My husband doesn't look at a nursing mother and think sex, but he knows other people do, and that's why he wouldn't let me nurse openly in public. Once we went to a wedding for his boss, who's a hippy type person, and he let me nurse openly there. Frankly there were two other women there who were nursing, too.

 

[Miss Diva]

I do not have children but my father (may God / Allah / Jehovah / Buddah / or whomever is up there, rest his soul) thought the act of breastfeeding was the most intimate, selfless, beautiful gift a woman could give her child. BTW my father also claimed that when babies smiled, it was a smile from the angels (yes I guess good old dad was a poet and romantic at heart).

As for comprising my morals. I was raised RCatholic also in a house where sex was deemed a horrible thing that women had to endure! And it took me a long time to realize that sex is a wonderful act between two loving people.

And being in a part time Master / slave relationhip well I guess you can say I have compromised my morals (or just am exploring various aspects of my sexuality).

But I would not steal, cheat, lie or kill. For me those are not grey issues but black and white.

 

[Sir_Winston54]

From a PYL point of view...

I've followed this thread since its inception, and have not been terribly surprised to get a strong sense that the pyls would not compromise or alter their moral standards just because their PYL wanted them to.

The last eight years, I've been a member of "the BDSM community" after more than 20 years of going it alone (because of some less-than-good experiences with "the community" way back when, when it was largely closed to anyone who was not "introduced" by an existing member, with strong references). During this period of interaction with people in our culture, I learned that the majority of those with whom I came into contact had a strong sense of right and wrong, and would seldom (if ever) compromise their standards without serious thought and discussion of the issue(s) involved.

That said, as a PYL, I would not try to change the moral compass of my pyl without what I considered to be good and sufficient reason. If I were to make that attempt, it would be via discussion, persuasion, and more discussion - and it would still be her decision.

I find it hard to envision circumstances in which I would have a relationship with a pyl where there was a marked difference in our moral standards, so it's doubtful that it would come up, other than perhaps as a gradual change in viewpoint by both of us.

 

[shy slave]

Re: From a PYL point of view...

I've followed this thread since its inception, and have not been terribly surprised to get a strong sense that the pyls would not compromise or alter their moral standards just because their PYL wanted them to.

I find it hard to envision circumstances in which I would have a relationship with a pyl where there was a marked difference in our moral standards, so it's doubtful that it would come up, other than perhaps as a gradual change in viewpoint by both of us.

You sum up the thread well.

I feel a bit like 'odd one out' simply because I know not all my morals are hard limits.

I have seen friends change just about every aspect of their lives to enable them to stay with the person they think they want to be with.

I have 'hooked up' with people who have different moral and belief value systems and standards ~ friendships as oppose to physical relationship, but the friendship emotional level was strong.
As a result i have reviewed and reviewed and reviewed some of my moralistic standpoints.
I changed some views kept others.

Netzach posted about issues that go strongly against the moral grain.

I am not referring to those but issues which, for me, are not strong hard issues.

A morals/values issue in reverse that I have had.

I breast fed in public and there were times when my children played (in my sight) in little clothing, perhaps just a nappy.

A friend who was, in my mind, a free thinking spirit asked if was I being a morally responsible parent to allow this?

The basis of her question stemmed from a point of view that I may be putting my child at risk of abduction, unwarrented or inappropriate attention as I allowed them to play partially clothed.

Previously i had thought little of this, but i did re-think the issue drawing out several additional questions including 'could I live with myself if my child suffered because they were not clothed appropriatly?'

My belief system went from one of allowing a baby to enjoy freedom from restriction, thinking I was 'relaxed and comfortable' about small children and how they dressed; to being very aware and wondering if I was morally doing my children a disservice which has the potential to have a negative impact on thier furture.



I am a small voice of dissent in pyls views of changing their values & belief systems but I know there are elements that are open to change if He deemed it and gave explanation.

 

[TigerClaw]

Re: Re: From a PYL point of view...

A morals/values issue in reverse that I have had.

I breast fed in public and there were times when my children played (in my sight) in little clothing, perhaps just a nappy.

A friend who was, in my mind, a free thinking spirit asked if was I being a morally responsible parent to allow this?

The basis of her question stemmed from a point of view that I may be putting my child at risk of abduction, unwarrented or inappropriate attention as I allowed them to play partially clothed.

Previously i had thought little of this, but i did re-think the issue drawing out several additional questions including 'could I live with myself if my child suffered because they were not clothed appropriatly?'

My belief system went from one of allowing a baby to enjoy freedom from restriction, thinking I was 'relaxed and comfortable' about small children and how they dressed; to being very aware and wondering if I was morally doing my children a disservice which has the potential to have a negative impact on thier furture.



I am a small voice of dissent in pyls views of changing their values & belief systems but I know there are elements that are open to change if He deemed it and gave explanation.

This is part of the dilemma. It used to be common for children to go partially clothed. It was no big deal. Now your being questioned about your decision and are you morally correct? I say yes you are.

There is a valid point her though in whether the children will bare unwarranted risk from it. I admittedly am over concerned with public breast-feeding. This thread has given me some good feedback and has calmed some unwarranted fears. In the respect of the children being partially clothed I would tell them to mind their own business. Why the conflict? Why was I so sure about allowing one and not the other?

What gets me with this example is not the fact that it may be a good idea to clothe them. But the fact you are now questioned as to whether the act it itself is right or wrong. There are a lot of examples of things I grew up with that are looked down upon in today’s culture. The reason being the change may have been good but does that mean we are now doing morally wrong by allowing it today. I question some of the value changes over the years.

 

[graceanne]

Re: Re: Re: From a PYL point of view...

This is part of the dilemma. It used to be common for children to go partially clothed. It was no big deal. Now your being questioned about your decision and are you morally correct? I say yes you are.

There is a valid point her though in whether the children will bare unwarranted risk from it. I admittedly am over concerned with public breast-feeding. This thread has given me some good feedback and has calmed some unwarranted fears. In the respect of the children being partially clothed I would tell them to mind their own business. Why the conflict? Why was I so sure about allowing one and not the other?

I have and do tell them to mind their own business. But it's still irritating. Everytime my mother in law comes over she says to the kids "Why aren't you dressed?", and my mom's not much better. My mom is sure that all teenage boys are potention sexual abusers, so when I have my nephews over she bugs me about keeping the kids dressed. For God's sake, it's not like I'm letting them be in rooms by themselves, or letting them sleep together! Geez.

 

[dolf]

interesting theory that seeing children naked causes abuse
i very much doubt it changes the odds of it happening at all. a man doesn't interfere with kids because they tempt him with their nudity...he does it because he has an opportunity to and he's a sick, subhuman who deserves...
ok, i'll stop at that point before i start ranting.
xx

 

[graceanne]

interesting theory that seeing children naked causes abuse
i very much doubt it changes the odds of it happening at all. a man doesn't interfere with kids because they tempt him with their nudity...he does it because he has an opportunity to and he's a sick, subhuman who deserves...
ok, i'll stop at that point before i start ranting.
xx

believe me, I agree. But my mom was molested, and she's very paranoid. As children me and my sister were not allowed to spend the night at friends' house if their was no women there, cause their fathers might molest us. My mom wouldn't let us sleep in the living room of my dad's house, cause someone might molest us. I began developing at 8, and things got worse. She was sure that everyman who did a double take at a 10 year old with B breasts wanted to molest me.

But beyond that if a person is going to molest a child, clothing them isn't going to stop him. What will stop him is paying attention, and keeping your children safe. I don't let my children sleep over at friends house, unless i know the people. I don't let people go into their room when they're asleep, etc.

 

[dolf]

graceanne, that's very true. I do/feel the same.
I do keep my children covered too, I don't like the idea of anyone looking at them that way....
breast feeding I never hid. if a baby is hungry then it's hungry and I'll feed it right away wherever I am. I don't give a damn about offending the prudes in that situation, I have a moral obligation to ease my child's discomfort. even if my partner disapproved my first responsibility is to my children's welfare.
xx

 

[TigerClaw]

This is the bad thing about human nature. We were innocent back in the fifties. Now we are paranoid in the (lol ??) 00's, Units, Uno's ???? I expressed my fear and I understood it was my problem. But what we are talking about is a perception that has gotten out of hand over the years. Whether it is Breast Feeding, Child molestation, etc.

Do bad things happen? Yes, they do. Does that mean every one wants to do something bad? No. But it seems like your guilty before you even do it now a days.

Do you know that crime is down in America. Last I heard it was below 1960 statistics. With the population that the US has now a days that is amazing. Yet, our fear is higher then it ever was before.

How about the other countries. Anyone know if crime is down abroad also?

 

[sunfox]

graceanne, that's very true. I do/feel the same.
I do keep my children covered too, I don't like the idea of anyone looking at them that way....
breast feeding I never hid. if a baby is hungry then it's hungry and I'll feed it right away wherever I am. I don't give a damn about offending the prudes in that situation, I have a moral obligation to ease my child's discomfort. even if my partner disapproved my first responsibility is to my children's welfare.
xx

I'm with you guys on the covered thing.. It won't matter to me what causes abuse if it happens to my kid.

And dolf, I agree. My partner can dislike me breastfeeding my child if he wants, but in the end, I'd have done it publicly regardless when necessary... he's not the one with the full, hurting breasts, after all. But when she was hungry, I fed her. I covered her most of the time if I was somewhere really public, but honestly, by the time she was nearly done breastfeeding, I didn't care who was looking. It's nothing but cruel to deny a baby eating because you're uncomfortable with your pyl breastfeeding in public.

All my PYL would have gotten had he told me not to do it was the finger.

 

[TigerClaw]

I for one thank the women here who have talked openly about this. Before this I WOULD have insisted she at the very least cover up. I would Love and appreciate a woman who did what I had asked (as unfounded as it may have been) and who took the time to alleviate my fears. Anything else would have irritated the situation.

 

[graceanne]

He never asked me to postpone feeding them. He would just ask me to go into another room, which'd really tick me off. I felt like a freaken lepper cause I had to feed my child. I was being banished from polite company. If there was no other choice, he'd stand there, and try and help me keep the blanket on me, since I've yet to nurse a child who'll feed under a blanket. But he agrees about feeding children on demand, no matter where you are.

 

[Kajira Callista]

He never asked me to postpone feeding them. He would just ask me to go into another room, which'd really tick me off. I felt like a freaken lepper cause I had to feed my child. I was being banished from polite company. If there was no other choice, he'd stand there, and try and help me keep the blanket on me, since I've yet to nurse a child who'll feed under a blanket. But he agrees about feeding children on demand, no matter where you are.

did he also know that by making you feel nervous he was preventing your milk from letting down and also your child was picking up on your nervous reaction being right there close to you. sometimes you have to explain things to men who have "off" feelings about nursing. let them read and understand if you cant find a way to make them understand. there is nothing more natural than a baby on its mothers breast, and most ppl who dont have boob hangups already know this by seeing a baby nurse.

 

[CutieMouse]

*****

 

[TigerClaw]

He never asked me to postpone feeding them. He would just ask me to go into another room, which'd really tick me off. I felt like a freaken lepper cause I had to feed my child. I was being banished from polite company. If there was no other choice, he'd stand there, and try and help me keep the blanket on me, since I've yet to nurse a child who'll feed under a blanket. But he agrees about feeding children on demand, no matter where you are.

Hon, I would be surprised if he had any feelings of you being a leaper, ashamed that you were doing this, or any reason that would reflect badly on you. His intention was not to ban you but to protect you.

Ok, the harm may all be invalid but that is probably how he sees it. Whether it is impolite stares or whatever. Talk to him as every one here has talked to me.

 

[graceanne]

did he also know that by making you feel nervous he was preventing your milk from letting down and also your child was picking up on your nervous reaction being right there close to you. sometimes you have to explain things to men who have "off" feelings about nursing. let them read and understand if you cant find a way to make them understand. there is nothing more natural than a baby on its mothers breast, and most ppl who dont have boob hangups already know this by seeing a baby nurse.

LOL Nothing, short of an act of God, keeps my milk from coming in. I think I was a wet nurse in a past life! I have one inverted nipple, so they always fed off one breast, and I've never dried up. I don't even have to nurse to have milk. I could nurse two or three children easily.

Originally posted by TigerClaw
Hon, I would be surprised if he had any feelings of you being a leaper, ashamed that you were doing this, or any reason that would reflect badly on you. His intention was not to ban you but to protect you.

I know that. But it's still how I felt. I hate being sent from the room, for any reason. I get lonely, and then the babies know that I'm lonely, and they gave me crap about latching. A lot of it was differences in beliefs. I don't personally care if the sight of breast feeding turns on some perv. One thing I know about pervs is that they will find something to turn them on, whether I nurse in public or not. And anyone else it bugs is quite welcome to come up and say something, I'll rip em a new one. *sigh* Well, D's my last one, and I'm not nursing him anymore, so I guess it's moot point, now.

 

[sunfox]

I know that. But it's still how I felt. I hate being sent from the room, for any reason. I get lonely, and then the babies know that I'm lonely, and they gave me crap about latching. A lot of it was differences in beliefs. I don't personally care if the sight of breast feeding turns on some perv. One thing I know about pervs is that they will find something to turn them on, whether I nurse in public or not. And anyone else it bugs is quite welcome to come up and say something, I'll rip em a new one. *sigh* Well, D's my last one, and I'm not nursing him anymore, so I guess it's moot point, now.

I rather feel that a man telling me when/how to breastfeed falls under the heading of getting advice on how to treat cramps from a man.

As useful as teats on a bull, as they say.

Before passing a blanket statement on what a woman should/shouldn't do in situations that are wholly a woman's province, I really think men should have the intelligence to talk to her first. She knows better than they do, after all.. she lives in that body.

And graceanne... my daughter was the same, and if I was at all unhappy or uptight, she wouldn't latch well, or would be fussy about it, which made me sore and achy, as well as leaving her hungry because she couldn't empty the breast. I completely understand.

 

[Kajira Callista]

You all do know that this breast feeding issue is not really an issue in countries other then the US. It is very common for a mother to nurse in public without a second glance...but here in the US to protect mothers we had to actually make a law allowing them to feed their babies in public... Kinda f'ed up eh?

 

[sunfox]

You all do know that this breast feeding issue is not really an issue in countries other then the US. It is very common for a mother to nurse in public without a second glance...but here in the US to protect mothers we had to actually make a law allowing them to feed their babies in public... Kinda f'ed up eh?

Yeah, hurrah for Puritan ideals.

 

[graceanne]

Yeah, hurrah for Puritan ideals.

Damn puritans. So here's a question: what did they do? I mean they were required to spend HOURS in church. I bet they breastfed in public.

 

[shy slave]

You all do know that this breast feeding issue is not really an issue in countries other then the US. It is very common for a mother to nurse in public without a second glance...but here in the US to protect mothers we had to actually make a law allowing them to feed their babies in public... Kinda f'ed up eh?

When i had my first child (17yrs ago ) I was asked to leave a Macfonalds when sitting in the corrner his head inside my button through dress.
Did i leave did i hell!

On a long trip weninto a service station and discovered the feeding room was the disabled toilet.

I was very feisty in those days.

Bought a sandwich then asked to see manager of service station.
Offered him the opportunity to eat the sandwich whilst sitting on my knee and I would sit on disabled toilet!

Which in my mind on a VERY bad day, was the nearest equivelent i could think off.

He did not take me up on the offer, but gave me vouchers to use in other service stations on our route to get free meals.

I breast fed, discreetly in corner of cafe seat facing away from rest of public, manager took my husband aside and said he though I had an interesting way of making a point and at the next manager meeting breats feeding would be up for discussion

Thats the only two incidents I have had with feeding in public and have fed them just about everywhere ~ on a bus, cafes, zoo, park & walking down street. I had dozens of 'button up the front' dresses, would undo couple of buttons, put sons head in dress, one arm under them to steady them and carry on. No-one ever seemed to notice and no flech was ever on display.

Had not realised it was a big issue in US, its not as if we heave an entire bosom onto the table and them start feeding our babies.

 

[graceanne]

When i had my first child (17yrs ago ) I was asked to leave a Macfonalds when sitting in the corrner his head inside my button through dress.
Did i leave did i hell!

On a long trip weninto a service station and discovered the feeding room was the disabled toilet.

I was very feisty in those days.

Bought a sandwich then asked to see manager of service station.
Offered him the opportunity to eat the sandwich whilst sitting on my knee and I would sit on disabled toilet!

Which in my mind on a VERY bad day, was the nearest equivelent i could think off.

He did not take me up on the offer, but gave me vouchers to use in other service stations on our route to get free meals.

I breast fed, discreetly in corner of cafe seat facing away from rest of public, manager took my husband aside and said he though I had an interesting way of making a point and at the next manager meeting breats feeding would be up for discussion

LOL I heard of a woman who while breast feeding another woman came up and said it made her very uncomfortable, and would the first woman please move to the bathroom? She turned around and said "Then don't look." LOL I was like you go girl.

Thats the only two incidents I have had with feeding in public and have fed them just about everywhere ~ on a bus, cafes, zoo, park & walking down street. I had dozens of 'button up the front' dresses, would undo couple of buttons, put sons head in dress, one arm under them to steady them and carry on. No-one ever seemed to notice and no flech was ever on display.

Had not realised it was a big issue in US, its not as if we heave an entire bosom onto the table and them start feeding our babies.

we don't?