Not Submissive Anymore: A Spinoff

[HottieMama]

Tastes change. You should still remain even if you find that you like tea over coffee.

Hi Homburg! I find that I am more "me" now that I have given up on this notion of submission than I was when I was trying desperately to attain "it."

 

[Homburg]

Hi Homburg! I find that I am more "me" now that I have given up on this notion of submission than I was when I was trying desperately to attain "it."

Personally, I like this thread overall. All these incredibly awesome women that I've kept up with over a period of years have changed how they have sex. Okay, well, no skin off my nose, but, wait! They're feeling *better* about their various situations. Win!

Seriously, I'm glad to see it. Not that I want to see less awesome submissive gals in the world, but because people that I care about are being healthy.

Rock on. Be you.

 

[graceanne]

how I fuck does not define the entirety of me.

QFT..

 

[BiBunny]

*Sigh*

Ok. Y'all are right. It doesn't matter.

/thread

 

[Homburg]

*Sigh*

Ok. Y'all are right. It doesn't matter.

/thread

The journey matters. The self awareness matters.

The label doesn't.

 

[BiBunny]

The journey matters. The self awareness matters.

The label doesn't.

No, the label doesn't matter. It hasn't mattered to me in a long time. I don't think I can explain what does matter, so we'll just go back with "Who cares?" and be done with it.

 

[CutieMouse]

*Sigh*

Ok. Y'all are right. It doesn't matter.

/thread

Nooooo.... it DOES matter, as long as it matters to you. I've been on this "meh... submissive is as submissive does" (to bastardize Forrest Gump) path for a good year or three now, and only recently made peace with it.

It's hard going from knowing exactly how to define something so core to yourself (sexuality), to *not* knowing exactly how to define it.

 

[Stella_Omega]

...Some days I think that the pseudo-mainstreaming of kink brought on by the internet may well be one of the worst things to happen to kinky people worldwide. Suddenly they feel the need to keep up with the Leather-Joneses, and everybody knows you can't keep up with that cat with the hyphenated last name. It just ain't gonna happen.

yes, as a culture-wide phee-no-minum, it hasn't done some of us any favors.

On the other hand I remember how it was impossible to find out anything, in the days of yore, and how much I didn't know and therefore didn't do, and therefore lived with a big hole of suck for the first three decades of my sex life. And I do not exaggerate. The hole was big and sucky.

The internet enabled some of us to take those last big steps. And it enabled a lot of people to take the last steps-- who never took the first ones.

No, the label doesn't matter. It hasn't mattered to me in a long time. I don't think I can explain what does matter, so we'll just go back with "Who cares?" and be done with it.

The label-- the word-- doesn't matter, except as a tool, and we never get the best results with the wrong tool at hand.

To ignore something that IS a part of the sum of you-- it really, fucking, matters. And although my sexuality isn't the whole of me? It's always been a very crucial part. Pretty much everything I can do, every skill I acquire, gets turned towards sexual ends. Always has, since loong before I knew about sex in any experiental way.

I know that's not true for everyone, but people like me-- and like BiBunny-- are part of the damn bell curve dammit.

 

[BiBunny]

Nooooo.... it DOES matter, as long as it matters to you.

Thank you.

I've been on this "meh... submissive is as submissive does" (to bastardize Forrest Gump) path for a good year or three now, and only recently made peace with it.

It's hard going from knowing exactly how to define something so core to yourself (sexuality), to *not* knowing exactly how to define it.

Yes. This. You get it. I don't give a damn what other people call me, don't give a damn if I bottom, top, or otherwise.

I think the problem is that I titled the thread wrong. It's not that I'm not submissive. (At the risk of sounding like I'm playing that special snowflake card again, it's more like I may be too damn submissive.) It's that I've decided that "submissive," for me, equals "self-destructive."

I've made a decision not to put myself into situations where that's a factor anymore. I'm not terribly happy with this decision, but it is what it is. I still think it's better than the alternative.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Thank you.



Yes. This. You get it. I don't give a damn what other people call me, don't give a damn if I bottom, top, or otherwise.

I think the problem is that I titled the thread wrong. It's not that I'm not submissive. (At the risk of sounding like I'm playing that special snowflake card again, it's more like I may be too damn submissive.) It's that I've decided that "submissive," for me, equals "self-destructive."

I've made a decision not to put myself into situations where that's a factor anymore. I'm not terribly happy with this decision, but it is what it is. I still think it's better than the alternative.

*nods*

You always will be an alcoholic, no matter how long you go without drinking.

Sexual identity is like that for a lot of us. It's MORE of what we are, than it is for some other folks.

 

[BiBunny]

*nods*

You always will be an alcoholic, no matter how long you go without drinking.

Sexual identity is like that for a lot of us. It's MORE of what we are, than it is for some other folks.

Best analogy ever for that. Thank you!

 

[Homburg]

No, the label doesn't matter. It hasn't mattered to me in a long time. I don't think I can explain what does matter, so we'll just go back with "Who cares?" and be done with it.

"Apathy Shields to full power, Mr. Sulu."
"Aye, Captain."

--

yes, as a culture-wide phee-no-minum, it hasn't done some of us any favors.

On the other hand I remember how it was impossible to find out anything, in the days of yore, and how much I didn't know and therefore didn't do, and therefore lived with a big hole of suck for the first three decades of my sex life. And I do not exaggerate. The hole was big and sucky.

The internet enabled some of us to take those last big steps. And it enabled a lot of people to take the last steps-- who never took the first ones.

Oh, it's certainly useful. I just think that it has gone past "useful" into burdensome. when "BDSM on the intarwebs" was still in its' infancy, it was something of a revolution (for me as well. It's okay to do this shit?!? Who knew?). Nowadays, the revolution has died, and it is more consumerism, competition, one-upsmanship, etc.

--

Thank you.



Yes. This. You get it. I don't give a damn what other people call me, don't give a damn if I bottom, top, or otherwise.

I think the problem is that I titled the thread wrong. It's not that I'm not submissive. (At the risk of sounding like I'm playing that special snowflake card again, it's more like I may be too damn submissive.) It's that I've decided that "submissive," for me, equals "self-destructive."

I've made a decision not to put myself into situations where that's a factor anymore. I'm not terribly happy with this decision, but it is what it is. I still think it's better than the alternative.

This is more like it. And, for the record, _I_ care.

--

*nods*

You always will be an alcoholic, no matter how long you go without drinking.

Sexual identity is like that for a lot of us. It's MORE of what we are, than it is for some other folks.

Disclaimer: Never been an alcoholic. Don't know what it's like.

My sexual identity informs how I interact with those closest to me, and, to an extent, some of those outside that small circle. As those people I'm closest to are the most important thing in my life (outside my offspring), my sexual identity plays a core role in me being me.

But it does not define me. Sexual identity is not the totality of me. Core importance, sure, but the geeky RPG'er has been active longer than I've been sexually aware. The artist has been around as long, easily. The music nut has more history than sexual identity too. Top/dominant/PYL/whatever does not encapsulate the rollercoaster e-ticket ride that is "Homburg".

So, yeah, I'm probably "some other folks", no?

That said, I am also my own favourite experiment, and am used to modifying myself via modifying how I think. So perhaps I'm simply used to both self-change, and experiencing said change pseudo-objectively.

 

[BiBunny]

This is more like it. And, for the record, _I_ care.

I know. I'm sorry. I'm still touchy about it.

Thank you for caring. You're still one of my favorite people around these parts.

For that matter, a LOT of my favorite people have found their way to this thread. Interesting....

Disclaimer: Never been an alcoholic. Don't know what it's like.

My sexual identity informs how I interact with those closest to me, and, to an extent, some of those outside that small circle. As those people I'm closest to are the most important thing in my life (outside my offspring), my sexual identity plays a core role in me being me.

But it does not define me. Sexual identity is not the totality of me. Core importance, sure, but the geeky RPG'er has been active longer than I've been sexually aware. The artist has been around as long, easily. The music nut has more history than sexual identity too. Top/dominant/PYL/whatever does not encapsulate the rollercoaster e-ticket ride that is "Homburg".

So, yeah, I'm probably "some other folks", no?

That said, I am also my own favourite experiment, and am used to modifying myself via modifying how I think. So perhaps I'm simply used to both self-change, and experiencing said change pseudo-objectively.

I think my problem is that it's not just a sexual identity for me. If it were, I could pull it off without self-immolating. I'm socially and sexually submissive, and it's fucked me up to the point that it's not worth dancing in the flames any more.

 

[Homburg]

I know. I'm sorry. I'm still touchy about it.

Thank you for caring. You're still one of my favorite people around these parts.

For that matter, a LOT of my favorite people have found their way to this thread. Interesting....

Total accident on my part. As mentioned above, I'm trying to not be stabby towards my software/hardware. I randomly decided to check Lit, and, hey, Bibunny thread in the talk section. Must read.

I'm sure I'll disappear for a few weeks/months again shortly.

I think my problem is that it's not just a sexual identity for me. If it were, I could pull it off without self-immolating. I'm socially and sexually submissive, and it's fucked me up to the point that it's not worth dancing in the flames any more.

Personally, I think it is entirely the social part that fucks you up, and, frankly, a whole lot of other submissives. While you can totally grok getting pissed on by someone you dig, you just can't allow that shit to happen socially. Or at least you don't want to. Reconciling the disconnect between hidden/sexual and open/social is where the problem all too often lies.

Part of my own disconnect here, and why I'm comfortable talking about it, boils down to male/white/dominant privilege. Let's see, I'm dominant, male, pale enough to pass for white, and a big dude. None of these are image issues. I can be dominant sexually, and allow those dominant traits out to play (on a sturdy leash) and no one will bat an eye. Thus it's comparatively simple for me. Less so for you, for male submissives, and female dominants.

I heart my privilege...

 

[BiBunny]

Total accident on my part. As mentioned above, I'm trying to not be stabby towards my software/hardware. I randomly decided to check Lit, and, hey, Bibunny thread in the talk section. Must read.

I'm sure I'll disappear for a few weeks/months again shortly.

Thank God for your shitty computer, then.

Personally, I think it is entirely the social part that fucks you up, and, frankly, a whole lot of other submissives. While you can totally grok getting pissed on by someone you dig, you just can't allow that shit to happen socially. Or at least you don't want to. Reconciling the disconnect between hidden/sexual and open/social is where the problem all too often lies.

Part of my own disconnect here, and why I'm comfortable talking about it, boils down to male/white/dominant privilege. Let's see, I'm dominant, male, pale enough to pass for white, and a big dude. None of these are image issues. I can be dominant sexually, and allow those dominant traits out to play (on a sturdy leash) and no one will bat an eye. Thus it's comparatively simple for me. Less so for you, for male submissives, and female dominants.

I heart my privilege...

You're probably right. The sexual situations re-open wounds caused by the social ones.

I know I'm being less than communicative tonight. I just can't figure out how to say what's in my head.

 

[Homburg]

Thank God for your shitty computer, then.

I'm hoping it's the shitty software. I can get tech support for that. If it is the shitty computer, I'll need to buy a new box. Do. Not. Want.

Note - Software is crashing to desktop randomly when I do a database call. About every 2-4 calls. This means nigh constant crashing, and thus the need to save after every successful database hit. And every time I save, the compliance program pops up and requires me to scan the file. Every. Fucking. Time.

In short, what usually takes me twenty minutes, is taking 2+ hours per file.

Haaaaaaate.

You're probably right. The sexual situations re-open wounds caused by the social ones.

I know I'm being less than communicative tonight. I just can't figure out how to say what's in my head.

S'okay. I'm used to reading between the lines. With most people, it's just bluish-grey space, but not so much with some.

 

[BiBunny]

I'm hoping it's the shitty software. I can get tech support for that. If it is the shitty computer, I'll need to buy a new box. Do. Not. Want.

Note - Software is crashing to desktop randomly when I do a database call. About every 2-4 calls. This means nigh constant crashing, and thus the need to save after every successful database hit. And every time I save, the compliance program pops up and requires me to scan the file. Every. Fucking. Time.

In short, what usually takes me twenty minutes, is taking 2+ hours per file.

Haaaaaaate.

Ugh. That blows. I hope it's the software, too.

I also hope you stay this time, or at least check in more often. I get sad when I can't get my Homburg (and Netzach, for that matter) fix.

 

[graceanne]

*hugs* for Bunny.

I didn't mean to make you feel like your feelings and opinions weren't important or valid. I think I misunderstood what you're looking for from this thread. Sorry.

Knowing what I know about relationships you have been in (and that's not much), I can see where you're coming from, and while I'm sorry that you had to come to that decision, I think it's the right one.

I realized as a teenager that I am attracted to physically abusive men, and so I've never ever dated a man who I instantly found attractive. Over the years I've found that my shit-o-meter still works fine, because I always find my best friends boyfriends sexy and they're always physically abusive.

The reason I bring this up, is I think this is kinda like what you're talking about. The kind of relationships you are attracted to are unhealthy and abusive. You're in the process of learning to stay out of those, and in this case that means no overtly D/s relationships. Like stella's analogy - you're like an alcoholic getting sober and like an alcoholic stays away from alcohol you stay away from anything remotely resembling an abusive relationship.

Right?

 

[Stella_Omega]

"Apathy Shields to full power, Mr. Sulu."
"Aye, Captain."

--



Oh, it's certainly useful. I just think that it has gone past "useful" into burdensome. when "BDSM on the intarwebs" was still in its' infancy, it was something of a revolution (for me as well. It's okay to do this shit?!? Who knew?). Nowadays, the revolution has died, and it is more consumerism, competition, one-upsmanship, etc.

yes, and corporate sponsership, logos, and Your Results Guaranteed™

--




This is more like it. And, for the record, _I_ care.

--



Disclaimer: Never been an alcoholic. Don't know what it's like.

My sexual identity informs how I interact with those closest to me, and, to an extent, some of those outside that small circle. As those people I'm closest to are the most important thing in my life (outside my offspring), my sexual identity plays a core role in me being me.

But it does not define me. Sexual identity is not the totality of me. Core importance, sure, but the geeky RPG'er has been active longer than I've been sexually aware. The artist has been around as long, easily. The music nut has more history than sexual identity too. Top/dominant/PYL/whatever does not encapsulate the rollercoaster e-ticket ride that is "Homburg".

So, yeah, I'm probably "some other folks", no?

t's just a matter of a few degrees, I think. The geek developed on account of my sexuality, the artist has always been most inspired by sexual themes-- like, fucking, and gentialia and orgasmic faces. The music nut knew when the music was good because it made me wet. A total visceral reaction. I have never been able to seperate anything in my life from sex.

That said, I am also my own favourite experiment, and am used to modifying myself via modifying how I think. So perhaps I'm simply used to both self-change, and experiencing said change pseudo-objectively.

Dude.

I have done that same kind of self-change, and some of it has been successful and some of it no freaking way is it going to grab hold. Some things I can't change, I also can't do jack shit about alleviating. So "pseudo-objectively" I think, is the perfect phrase for it.

And I bet we aren't the only ones, especially on this forum.

 

[Homburg]

It's just a matter of a few degrees, I think. The geek developed on account of my sexuality, the artist has always been most inspired by sexual themes-- like, fucking, and gentialia and orgasmic faces. The music nut knew when the music was good because it made me wet. A total visceral reaction. I have never been able to seperate anything in my life from sex.

I was a relatively late bloomer, sexually speaking. Music, art, and geekery has been with me longer to be honest. Sure, music, art, and even geekery were all turned to sex eventually, but they were boon companions before sex fully took hold of my brain.

I think age of bloom, as it were, may well have something to do with it. In other words, I have memories, and many of them, from before I was sexually aware.

Dude.

I have done that same kind of self-change, and some of it has been successful and some of it no freaking way is it going to grab hold. Some things I can't change, I also can't do jack shit about alleviating. So "pseudo-objectively" I think, is the perfect phrase for it.

And I bet we aren't the only ones, especially on this forum.

Probably. Identity is fluid, and even moreso within the BDSM, and even GLBT, communities. So much of it revolves around codifying self by reinventing self, or in the case of some, by donning new masks, sometimes literally. "I am a submissive slave/slut in the bedroom but a hard-nosed corporate raider in the boardroom," is something we've all heard. Assuming it is not fantasy/self-delusion for internet jollies, it represents a long hard slog through identity restructuring.

On top of this, at least within BDSM, is the idea of imposing will over something. It is core to the experience. "If I am such a badass, then why can't I impose my will over myself? Fuck it, I'll do it." There is an aspect of this in it for me at least.

 

[BiBunny]

*hugs* for Bunny.

I didn't mean to make you feel like your feelings and opinions weren't important or valid. I think I misunderstood what you're looking for from this thread. Sorry.

No need to apologize. I could've worded the whole thing a little--ok, a lot--better.

Knowing what I know about relationships you have been in (and that's not much), I can see where you're coming from, and while I'm sorry that you had to come to that decision, I think it's the right one.

I realized as a teenager that I am attracted to physically abusive men, and so I've never ever dated a man who I instantly found attractive. Over the years I've found that my shit-o-meter still works fine, because I always find my best friends boyfriends sexy and they're always physically abusive.

The reason I bring this up, is I think this is kinda like what you're talking about. The kind of relationships you are attracted to are unhealthy and abusive. You're in the process of learning to stay out of those, and in this case that means no overtly D/s relationships. Like stella's analogy - you're like an alcoholic getting sober and like an alcoholic stays away from alcohol you stay away from anything remotely resembling an abusive relationship.

Right?

Yes, this is also what I mean. All my random thoughts in this thread do tie together...somehow.

*Deep breath*

I'd appreciate it if everybody would go easy on me for what I'm about to say. Assuming I don't go chickenshit and delete the whole thing later.

....

I am not attracted to what passes for "Doms" in the BDSM sense. Most of the time, they're geeky WoW players whom the girls didn't like in high school, and this is their way to get back at the females of the species. I could crush them if I wanted to; they do nothing for me and never will.

I am attracted to men who'd make great cult leaders: alpha types, charismatic, charming, narcissistic, and usually sociopathic, at least to some degree. If I were a little more mousy and a lot less fat, I'd be great serial killer bait.

These men are always superficial. Well, superficial in the sense that they don't really feel anything. At least not for anyone other than themselves.

I've also come to the realization that I don't care for "BDSM" as it's commonly presented. It's too cold, too clinical, too perfectly orchestrated for my taste. What this part of me needs is darker, more intimate, more primal, and more revealing than what BDSM, as a rule, offers.

There is also the "being shit on my whole life by people taking advantage of me because I am socially submissive" part to consider. And the fact that I'm batshit crazy.

So basically, you've got the perfect storm there. I think one reason I felt so threatened by OSG for so long is that I saw so much of myself in her. The difference between her and me is that she seems to have found a sense of peace in her submissiveness. But in me, it's only made me angrier, more bitter, more resentful, more self-destructive.

Every single time anyone tries to touch my free will, my instant response now is to tell him/her to take it and shove it up his/her ass. I'm just enough of a narcissist to think there's nobody in the world who knows better than I do what I need. Just the thought of D/s feels exploitative to me now.

I can't do it anymore. I may never have another "drink." In fact, it'll probably be better that I don't. That doesn't mean I don't miss the taste of rum, though.

 

[Homburg]

I resemble some of that! Okay, well, the girls liked me just fine, I was just too much of an insufferable prudish prick to really do anything about it.

(I will take a moment to point out the lack of quote here. Just sayin...)

The sort of pseudo dominant that you are speaking of is yet another symptom of the dark side of the internet intersecting with BDSM. Well, the geeky, WOW-playing, misogynist revenge fantasy harboring social retard part.

Yes, while the internet revolutionised the transfer of data, sometimes all the data points to "fat guy with little dick and poor hygiene living in his parents' basement."

 

[Stella_Omega]

No need to apologize. I could've worded the whole thing a little--ok, a lot--better.



Yes, this is also what I mean. All my random thoughts in this thread do tie together...somehow.

*Deep breath*

I'd appreciate it if everybody would go easy on me for what I'm about to say. Assuming I don't go chickenshit and delete the whole thing later.

....

I am not attracted to what passes for "Doms" in the BDSM sense. Most of the time, they're geeky WoW players whom the girls didn't like in high school, and this is their way to get back at the females of the species. I could crush them if I wanted to; they do nothing for me and never will.

I am attracted to men who'd make great cult leaders: alpha types, charismatic, charming, narcissistic, and usually sociopathic, at least to some degree. If I were a little more mousy and a lot less fat, I'd be great serial killer bait.

These men are always superficial. Well, superficial in the sense that they don't really feel anything. At least not for anyone other than themselves.

I've also come to the realization that I don't care for "BDSM" as it's commonly presented. It's too cold, too clinical, too perfectly orchestrated for my taste. What this part of me needs is darker, more intimate, more primal, and more revealing than what BDSM, as a rule, offers.

There is also the "being shit on my whole life by people taking advantage of me because I am socially submissive" part to consider. And the fact that I'm batshit crazy.

So basically, you've got the perfect storm there. I think one reason I felt so threatened by OSG for so long is that I saw so much of myself in her. The difference between her and me is that she seems to have found a sense of peace in her submissiveness. But in me, it's only made me angrier, more bitter, more resentful, more self-destructive.

Every single time anyone tries to touch my free will, my instant response now is to tell him/her to take it and shove it up his/her ass. I'm just enough of a narcissist to think there's nobody in the world who knows better than I do what I need. Just the thought of D/s feels exploitative to me now.

I can't do it anymore. I may never have another "drink." In fact, it'll probably be better that I don't. That doesn't mean I don't miss the taste of rum, though.

I hear you. BDSM as it's currently commonly practiced isn't going to fill your needs.

(if you want me to delete the quote just let me know)

 

[eastern sun]

As someone who is both socially and sexually submissive, I can totally relate to the struggle to find a healthy balance (if it is, in fact, possible at all). I also totally relate to the alcoholism analogy.

If we're lucky, we get to live for a number of years. You should have seen me at 13, at 22, at 33, at 45. Same person. Different lives. I'm thoroughly convinced that the exploration and struggles in coming to terms with "who I am," in learning how to love "who I am," in knowing without question "who I am," has been the most rewarding and mind-bendingly difficult part of this personal journey called life.

I've dropped threads of "who I am" for years, only to pick them up when I realized I couldn't live fully without weaving them back into my story.

But the key is to find health and well-being. I couldn't possibly have lived a full-on M/s dynamic before my 30's. I wasn't even whole, yet. I had to know who I was, what I wanted, what I needed, before I could even begin to be able to meet someone else's needs.

I have used my submissive nature to avoid responsibility for my life. I've sworn it was the root of my unhappiness.

But it wasn't my submissive nature. It was my addictions.

Like alcohol and drugs, BDSM is prone to escalation and addiction. I've used it as a chemical high. I've been swept into its frenzy. For me to be healthy, I needed to learn how to cope with that equally potent piece of me. My addictive personality.

And, I've learned over many, many years, that submissiveness and addiction is a recipe for self-destruction. While submissiveness in and of itself can be quite a beautiful trait.

 

[Licia]

Eh, so folk can accept my input or not as they choose. Because I am now part of their life experience and culture, by virtue of putting in my oar.

*picks up the poor, discarded sword, straightens the bent blade and hands it back*

Seems like it's out of temper there, Miss. Over-enthusiastic sharpening can do that...

*blinks, fingers wrapping over the hilt* She laughs.

Actually, I accepted and appreciated the imput. 'Twasn't temper, but theatrics. *shrugs before placing the object at her feet* A bit of fun, if ya will: Looney Tune variety. Apparently, the attempted humor failed. Ya've my apologies, sister.

Mentors are a wondrous concept, and I do think society should encourage them. My question: who is an appropriate mentor? Already, I have begun with my girls: don't allow your friends to be nasty and then continue to play with them. Recently my oldest had a problem with a girl who would get her in trouble if my daughter didn't do as she was told (they've been friends/enemies for a few years). My advice: tell her you would like to be her friend and have fun, but only if she will be nice. A few days later, she gave me positive feed back.

The girlfriends and I bounce ideas and advice off of one another, but when the "helpless" stuff begins? Bleh. I point them toward taking responsibility and taking action.

The sexual realm is much like navigating a path through a minefield because the ladies are so repressed 'round these parts. A girls night out makes matters more comfortable, but rarely are the men privy to the conversation. And that is unfortunate. It's why I choose to foster social gatherings. But, I am not all knowing or all powerful. We all get to bump into one another through the dimly lit room of life?