Not Submissive Anymore: A Spinoff

[Keroin]

*watches conversation from sidelines*

 

[graceanne]

I am not attracted to what passes for "Doms" in the BDSM sense. Most of the time, they're geeky WoW players whom the girls didn't like in high school, and this is their way to get back at the females of the species. I could crush them if I wanted to; they do nothing for me and never will.

I hear you there. The few munches I went to they were either all geeks (and not in a good sense) or just weird.

I am attracted to men who'd make great cult leaders: alpha types, charismatic, charming, narcissistic, and usually sociopathic, at least to some degree. If I were a little more mousy and a lot less fat, I'd be great serial killer bait.

I hear you there. But, like I said, I usually go for abusive guys. *shrugs*

A question - and you don't need to go into detail in public, just yes or no if okay. Do you know WHY you go for that kind of guy? I mean, in my case my father was a narcicist and my mother abusive, and we've come to realize that my stepdad (the asshole) is most likely a sociopath. Humans are creatures of habit, they tend to go where things feel 'normal' to them. If you continue to look for that type, it makes me wonder who in your childhood is/was like that, and if you realize what's going on.

I've also come to the realization that I don't care for "BDSM" as it's commonly presented. It's too cold, too clinical, too perfectly orchestrated for my taste. What this part of me needs is darker, more intimate, more primal, and more revealing than what BDSM, as a rule, offers.

I actually completely agree here, but I believe that for a BDSM relationship to make it it has to evolve and develop some depth and that when it does that it doesn't quite fit into that neat little BDSM box anymore.

There is also the "being shit on my whole life by people taking advantage of me because I am socially submissive" part to consider. And the fact that I'm batshit crazy.

[snip]

I can't do it anymore. I may never have another "drink." In fact, it'll probably be better that I don't. That doesn't mean I don't miss the taste of rum, though.

And that's okay, too. *hugs*

(if you want me to delete the quote just let me know)

ditto

 

[ecstaticsub]

~will be back to join the conversation when I finally have time to give a decent response. Thanks for starting the thread, BiBunny~

 

[BiBunny]

Thank you to everyone for not tearing me apart. You could've, and I probably would've deserved it. I appreciate everybody not doing so, though.

Gracie, to answer your question, I have no idea why I'm attracted to that kind of man. My father isn't like that. Well, he's charismatic enough, I suppose, but he's not narcissistic or abusive in any way. He doesn't wear his heart on his sleeve, but I know he loves me.

My mother is a narcissist to some degree. I suppose you could say she may have been emotionally abusive when I was younger, though I hate to word it that way because I feel it detracts from the experiences of real abuse victims. She has, in recent years, mellowed out some. I'm sure it's from watching the slow decline (and death a few weeks ago) of her own mother, the narcissist to end all narcissists.

So I really don't know.

 

[KoPilot]

I think one reason I felt so threatened by OSG for so long is that I saw so much of myself in her.

This is one of the reasons that I'm so happy that Eastern Sun posts so much here. I thought that I found her presence disturbing because of the same reason as you, but I realized that it was something else entirely. I see a lot of myself in ES, and am glad that I'm able to make that distinction between them, because it was quite the point of contention for myself for a while.

I like this thread a lot; hearing folks think aloud about these things is what attracted me to Lit in the first place. I hope you get one step closer to finding whatever it is that you're after at the end of the thread. And if the thread doesn't really end, then... that just means that you're still on the journey. And we all are, right?

 

[Stella_Omega]

Dude, there is nothing to tear you apart about. I mean, really, what?

 

[IrisAlthea]

Dude, there is nothing to tear you apart about. I mean, really, what?

This.

BiBunny, I think it looks as if you have done a lot of thinking about this.
To me it sounds like a good decision, but what's more important is that you sound pretty sure that this is what you need right now, even if it might not be what you want.
Those decisions are never easy to make but they are usually worth it.

 

[BiBunny]

Dude, there is nothing to tear you apart about. I mean, really, what?

It's been implied more than once here (not this thread, just on Lit in general) that I'm supremely fucked up and pretty well deserve all the shit that's happened to me. So I was sort of expecting a "Haha, told you so."

But y'all folks are better than that.

 

[graceanne]

Gracie, to answer your question, I have no idea why I'm attracted to that kind of man. My father isn't like that. Well, he's charismatic enough, I suppose, but he's not narcissistic or abusive in any way. He doesn't wear his heart on his sleeve, but I know he loves me.

My mother is a narcissist to some degree. I suppose you could say she may have been emotionally abusive when I was younger, though I hate to word it that way because I feel it detracts from the experiences of real abuse victims. She has, in recent years, mellowed out some. I'm sure it's from watching the slow decline (and death a few weeks ago) of her own mother, the narcissist to end all narcissists.

So I really don't know.

If you could figure it out (and I don't meant tear yourself apart about something you can figure out) it might help you do things differently. Was there anyone else in your life? Maybe another abuser?

Dude, there is nothing to tear you apart about. I mean, really, what?

What she said.

It's been implied more than once here (not this thread, just on Lit in general) that I'm supremely fucked up and pretty well deserve all the shit that's happened to me. So I was sort of expecting a "Haha, told you so."

But y'all folks are better than that.

That's cause we're awesome, didn't you know.

I think the implication, if I'm remembering when it happened and what was said, at the time wasn't meant like that but more of a kick in the butt to help you change your circumstances. No one deserves the shit you've been through.

Well, maybe a few people that I can think of, but you're not a horrible person who should be staked out for the vultures to feed off of, so you don't qualify.

 

[Stella_Omega]

It's been implied more than once here (not this thread, just on Lit in general) that I'm supremely fucked up and pretty well deserve all the shit that's happened to me. So I was sort of expecting a "Haha, told you so."

But y'all folks are better than that.

Well they can just eat shit and die.

because you might be fucked up, but you're our fucked up.

 

[HottieMama]

It's been implied more than once here (not this thread, just on Lit in general) that I'm supremely fucked up and pretty well deserve all the shit that's happened to me. So I was sort of expecting a "Haha, told you so."

But y'all folks are better than that.

Who's gonna tear you apart about what is first and foremost YOUR life experience????

(That said, this thread really did bring out some of the finest posters Lit has to offer...)

 

[BiBunny]

for Gracie, Stella, HM, and everybody else.

I look forward to reading ecstaticsub's contribution when she has a chance. I also realized I should've responded to eastern sun and didn't. My bad.

As someone who is both socially and sexually submissive, I can totally relate to the struggle to find a healthy balance (if it is, in fact, possible at all). I also totally relate to the alcoholism analogy.

If we're lucky, we get to live for a number of years. You should have seen me at 13, at 22, at 33, at 45. Same person. Different lives. I'm thoroughly convinced that the exploration and struggles in coming to terms with "who I am," in learning how to love "who I am," in knowing without question "who I am," has been the most rewarding and mind-bendingly difficult part of this personal journey called life.

I've dropped threads of "who I am" for years, only to pick them up when I realized I couldn't live fully without weaving them back into my story.

But the key is to find health and well-being. I couldn't possibly have lived a full-on M/s dynamic before my 30's. I wasn't even whole, yet. I had to know who I was, what I wanted, what I needed, before I could even begin to be able to meet someone else's needs.

I have used my submissive nature to avoid responsibility for my life. I've sworn it was the root of my unhappiness.

But it wasn't my submissive nature. It was my addictions.

Like alcohol and drugs, BDSM is prone to escalation and addiction. I've used it as a chemical high. I've been swept into its frenzy. For me to be healthy, I needed to learn how to cope with that equally potent piece of me. My addictive personality.

And, I've learned over many, many years, that submissiveness and addiction is a recipe for self-destruction. While submissiveness in and of itself can be quite a beautiful trait.

I feel like, for me, it's more of a sick compulsion than an addiction. Something I really don't have any control over. I don't know if that's putting too fine a point on it or what. Maybe I'm avoiding responsibility. Maybe it's pathological. I don't know.

I may be at a place at some point where I feel like I can take some control over it, but that time and place is not right now.

I haven't talked a whole lot about it here, but I've had so much shit happen to me in the last year. I've been kicked in the teeth repeatedly, betrayed, and abandoned by people I thought loved me. I've had mental health crises, and when I most needed those people, I basically got a "Oh, sorry, you're too crazy to deal with. Please come back when you're not a burden to us. Kthanxbi," from them.

On the other hand, I've had some people I never thought would do these kinds of things help me pick up the pieces. They've let me wrap an arm over their shoulders and limp when I couldn't walk. They helped me go back and sift through the ashes to see what was left after I pulled my own personal General Sherman and burned a path to the sea at the culmination of a 3-year-long manic episode.

I did not realize how bad things had gotten until last December. Since then, I've slowly been trying to get better, trying to distance myself from things that destabilize me, trying to put my life back together. In some respects, I've done well. In others, well, let's say I still need to do a lot of work.

But what it all boils down to right now is that my mental health is a hell of a lot more important than what gets some asshole's rocks off.

 

[Homburg]

But what it all boils down to is that my mental health is a hell of a lot more important than what gets some asshole's rocks off.

There, I fixed it for you. No need for that "right now" garbage.

 

[Keroin]

It's been implied more than once here (not this thread, just on Lit in general) that I'm supremely fucked up and pretty well deserve all the shit that's happened to me. So I was sort of expecting a "Haha, told you so."

But y'all folks are better than that.

I'm certain you believe I am one of the "impliers". All I can say is that I don't believe you, or anyone, deserves to be treated poorly. No one deserves to be unhappy.

If you're finding a better way for yourself and your life, then that is excellent news that should be celebrated, not denigrated. I wish you nothing but the best and hope things only continue to improve. Best wishes all around.

 

[BiBunny]

I'm certain you believe I am one of the "impliers". All I can say is that I don't believe you, or anyone, deserves to be treated poorly. No one deserves to be unhappy.

If you're finding a better way for yourself and your life, then that is excellent news that should be celebrated, not denigrated. I wish you nothing but the best and hope things only continue to improve. Best wishes all around.

Actually, no, you weren't on the list. But I do appreciate your wishes!

 

[eastern sun]

But what it all boils down to right now is that my mental health is a hell of a lot more important than what gets some asshole's rocks off.

Yes.

And when you're older, it might also be your children's mental health that is a hell of lot more important.

Bunny, I don't know if you recognize how beautiful, strong, smart and open-minded you are.

Sometimes the structures have to collapse if they're built on shaky foundations or geological faultlines. Mine have. It's how you learn what you can count on. Who you can count on.

What's true and what isn't.

Forgive me if I speak out of turn. I just want to let you know that we are all in your corner. The old "let us love you until you are able to love yourself" has definitely worked for me in the past.

Let us love you, Bunny. We do. Look at us. Here we all are - a confessed bunch of misfits and perverts! Embracing one of our own.

 

[shy slave]

I have read through this thread a couple of times and I agree with much of what has been said.

It took me two years to walk away from Ds,
Am I happy being completly vanilla? - No.
Was I any happier meeting 'Doms' and trying to figure out if they would make a good Dom for me? - No.
Was I happy in the last couple of Ds relationships? - No

Therefore, I have to accept that it is me who is not always happy, not the relationship that makes me unhappy.

Bunny, you and I have rarely exchanged posts. But there have been times when you have concerned me, it seemed as if you pressed your own self-destruct button sometimes.
I don't even know you, yet I worried about you.
A long time ago I realised it could so easily be me pressing that same button. Various circumstances stopped me, but nevertheless I was aware of my ability to throw myself it situations which were not always good for me.

Mostly, the thing that stops me is that I'm convinced there's no such thing as a healthy D/s relationship for me.

My time away from Lit gave me time to think. I don't believe that Ds is a healthy place for me either, I am not sure vanilla completely right, and I have yet to figure if there is any middle ground.
Bunny, when I came back, I was glad that you were still here, glad you seemed to have figured things out more than before, and I still enjoy reading your thoughts and seeing how your mind figures stuff out.

Yes.

And when you're older, it might also be your children's mental health that is a hell of lot more important.

Bunny, I don't know if you recognize how beautiful, strong, smart and open-minded you are.

Sometimes the structures have to collapse if they're built on shaky foundations or geological faultlines. Mine have. It's how you learn what you can count on. Who you can count on.

What's true and what isn't.

Forgive me if I speak out of turn. I just want to let you know that we are all in your corner. The old "let us love you until you are able to love yourself" has definitely worked for me in the past.

Let us love you, Bunny. We do. Look at us. Here we all are - a confessed bunch of misfits and perverts! Embracing one of our own.

I like the parts in bold, they seem perfect

 

[the captians wench]

I have been trying to figure out something clever to post, or just something to add really, but I keep coming up short, so I'll just leave lots of huggles for you.

 

[bhndblueyes88]

I have been trying to figure out something clever to post, or just something to add really, but I keep coming up short, so I'll just leave lots of huggles for you.

me too. and you most certainly are NOT deserving of a single iota of suffering, BiBunny. You are one of my favorite people here because you have tons of sense and heart behind it. And you like ponies. It's hard for me to dislike my pony-people

If your life can't have D/s in it, so be it. you do what is best for you and to hell with another single solitary living soul.

I feel this sudden desire to do a cheerleadery-interpretive dance for you, which is strange both in concept and compulsion. Luckily for everyone I won't. But the thought counts?

 

[CutieMouse]

Apologies for snipping all over the place here, because it's taken me all freaking day to get time to come back to this...

I've made a decision not to put myself into situations where that's a factor anymore. I'm not terribly happy with this decision, but it is what it is. I still think it's better than the alternative.

May I take a moment to say kick.ass.you.? I think this moment in which you consciously decided to take care of YOU, instead of taking care of "submissive Bunny" will serve you well.

Story time -

Last June? July? An old lover contacted me out of the blue, explaining that he'd fallen in with a small group of people who were exploring D/s... given the odd number of persons involved, the situation required him to find a willing partner, and given my proclivities... was I interested?

I didn't say yes, but I didn't say no.

We talked a lot; he screwed up a few times. We ended up meeting one of the other participants for brunch one morning (me remaining non-committal), and within 2 minutes I knew this "Domme" he'd introduced me to had a totally difference concept of D/s than myself, and I had no interest in associating with her/her circle. At one point during brunch he tried to casually open negotiations to explore things [together] in a sexual D/s sense, and I actually stopped the conversation, and said not just no, but fuck no. Because that over there [gesturing to her/the "3-5 person "group" they'd been explaining to me] was the biggest cluster-fuck of a train wreck I'd ever witnessed. I might be dying inside to be his submissive fuck toy, but I'd be dammed if I'd let him fuck me over. And that over there [gesturing at her again] - would seriously fuck me over. No offense.

It was fabulously awkward. She tried to convince me that she'd been "doing this" for like 2 whole years, so I was "totally" safe with her... yeah... I've been doing it for 10, and you don't know me well enough to make those kinds of promises. LOL

That was the moment when I realized I couldn't define myself as "submissive" anymore, because it didn't feel right anymore. It doesn't mean that I'm *not* submissive... just that the way I'd always associated that word with myself no longer "fit".

He and I went home, sat out in the garden and talked for a bit... he wanted to explore, but didn't want to give more than he took or take more than he gave. I wanted him back in my life, but didn't want to take more than I gave, or give more than I took. But if he wanted this to work, I had to have permission to clean his house once or twice a month. LOL

It was the least submissive (and most profound) thing I have ever done in a relationship situation. Seriously life changing... I ended up thanking him for putting me in the situation, because it ended up triggering some much needed growth.

I am not attracted to what passes for "Doms" in the BDSM sense.

No offense to those who pass for "Doms" in the BDSM sense, but yeah, "Doms". Ew. LOL

The above story? He's 6'5", thin as a rail, 20 years older, mellow, geeky (I get to borrow the coolest.books.ever. when we see each other), and he's still not sure if he's "dominant" enough because we relate as friends/lovers/equals, and our sex life doesn't really involve the things most people associate with "BDSM". But ye gawds does it make me happy to cater to him.

The other one is an inch shorter than me (Asian), thin & wiry, intellectual (yum), mellow, quiet, artistic... when we first started seeing one another, he confessed that he wasn't even sure he was "dominant", because he didn't view things like 99% of the people at FetLife do (where we met). I'm sure if we were to attend a munch situation together, people would assume our roles reversed. LOL But ye gawds does it make me happy to cater to him.

They never demand anything of me, worry I work to hard, pick up after themselves (at my house), view me as an equal, and each fully supports my desire to maintain a relationship with the other. They actually have a lot in common (besides me), and we may all sit down together over dinner sometime soon.

<snippage>

I've also come to the realization that I don't care for "BDSM" as it's commonly presented. It's too cold, too clinical, too perfectly orchestrated for my taste. What this part of me needs is darker, more intimate, more primal, and more revealing than what BDSM, as a rule, offers.

Yep. When the first one up there (the story one) came to me saying he wanted to explore, and had found some people to "teach him BDSM", my response was "WTF? That voice you use when you want the waitstaff to know a healthy tip is on the line? That can't be taught. You know how I always say sex with you is like being raped by a wolf? That can't be taught. If you want your bed made a certain way, tell me. If you want to figure out how to choke/hit/whatever me safely... ask (like you have in the past). You want? Take. If I have a problem, I'll say something like an adult. WTH is this teaching BDSM crap?" LOL

<snippage>

Every single time anyone tries to touch my free will, my instant response now is to tell him/her to take it and shove it up his/her ass. I'm just enough of a narcissist to think there's nobody in the world who knows better than I do what I need. Just the thought of D/s feels exploitative to me now.

That's because there isn't anybody else in the world who knows better than you what you need... and being an expert on YOU has absolutely nothing [and everything] to do with D/s. It feels exploitative to you now, because [at the moment; maybe temporarily/maybe permanently] it is. Kinda like my "not just no, but fuck no" moment above, just without the brunch & mimosas to soften the edges of it all.

I can't do it anymore. I may never have another "drink." In fact, it'll probably be better that I don't. That doesn't mean I don't miss the taste of rum, though.

Eh, maybe; maybe not. I still have moments where I crave "_____ terribly inappropriate, vaguely illegal, decidedly wrong, kinky thing" (usually when I'm insanely stressed, like I have been the last few weeks), but I don't let those cravings destroy the beauty I'm experiencing now. I had the option of all that destructive [hot] dark shit before, and while what I'm involved in now might not measure up to the "kinkier than thou" crowd, I'm happy. And sweetie happy is waaaaaaaay better than "submissive". Don't ever let anyone tell you otherwise.

 

[BiBunny]

You're all far too nice.

I'm being lazy and not quoting everybody, but thank you eastern sun, shy slave, wenchie, BBE, and Ms. Mouse. I love knowing that even though I'm just words on a screen, y'all still care about me.

And thanks to the Mouse for giving me hope that I don't have to be celibate for the rest of my life....

 

[Stella_Omega]

Miss Mouse, that is an amazing post. Thank you thank you for sharing.

 

[Bandit58]

I CutieMouse.

he's still not sure if he's "dominant" enough because we relate as friends/lovers/equals, and our sex life doesn't really involve the things most people associate with "BDSM". But ye gawds does it make me happy to cater to him.

This. Sir reckons he's lost his membership of the "real and twue Doms club". Well if that's true then I've well and truly been kicked out of the "real and twue subbies club". We are friends, lovers and equals too. We balance each other out and relate really well. It's coming up to the 8th anniversary of us moving in together. It works for us

 

[CutieMouse]

You're all far too nice.

I'm being lazy and not quoting everybody, but thank you eastern sun, shy slave, wenchie, BBE, and Ms. Mouse. I love knowing that even though I'm just words on a screen, y'all still care about me.

And thanks to the Mouse for giving me hope that I don't have to be celibate for the rest of my life....

They've both mentioned that knowing the other exists takes some of the pressure off "keeping up" with me in bed. lol



You won't be celibate any longer than you want to be. While I don't necessarily recommend them, I've had my fair share of casual sex/one night stands, when necessary... It's part of that whole mature, liberated woman schtick.

 

[graceanne]

I think all of my favorite litsters aren't members of the 'twue' club. *shrugs*

That said, I don't really consider myself a 'sub' anymore, either. I'm not sure what I consider myself, and if asked I'll say submissive because it's closest, but I'm actually pretty okay with being where I am.