On assault and BDSM...

[jadefirefly]

Ah, jeez, you were a kid! 15! 15 year olds are Supposed to rebel! And other people are not supposed to take advantage of that fact. (But they do.) I'm betting if you think about some 15 year old you know, doing Exactly the same thing, you wouldn't think it was 'her fault.' (You might think it was too bad that teens do chancey things, but I bet if it wasn't you, it would be easier to realize that the blame for a rape doesn't lie with the kid who takes stupid, kid chances, but with whomever was out trolling and prowling to take advantage of such a kid.)

My two cents. I was 15, too. (And no, I shouldn't have gone and smoked pot with the adult on our class field trip whose house we were staying in, and yes, as an adult I would be suspicious of anyone who would then offer me a 'free massage' but I trusted adults back then. Kids are ignorant. And he was hunting.)

Yes, you made choices and i bet they seemed exciting and fun at the time. But knowing that would happen, and I'm betting it wasn't fun, would you make the same mistake?

Don't blame a kid for not having an adult's insight. She (the little one in you) doesn't deserve it. Would you be that judgemental of a stranger? I bet you wouldn't!

If I'm out of place commenting, let me know. No offense intended. (I know it took a long time for me to realize what a kid I was back then.)

Touche.

I was a very -good- kid. I can't say as I'm proud of that -now-, but at the time, I was your annoying little goody-goody all A's and B's kinda kid. So I just don't think of myself as having been rebelling, I think of myself as screwing up and not doing what my folks said to do. (And boy, did I get in trouble the next day, too! )

You make very good points, though, and you're totally not out of place commenting!

I guess whether I intended it to be or not, the thread is turning into a "what's wrong with Jade" commentary! *laughs*

You all are so much better than I am at putting your thoughts into a nice coherent order. Thank you all for offering your opinions, insights, and thoughts, both on the original subject and on what it's wandered off into.

 

[catalina_francisco]

Catalina, I'm sorry if I gave the impression that I was seeking any help or support for my own issues with this, that wasn't my intention at all.

Wasn't so much directed at you or anyone in particular, just a thought which comes from many who do come here or other forums seeking healing from others. While support and validation help tremendously, often combined with therapy the process can be a lot more successful and permanent healing. The community here is good at being supportive and caring when one is in need which is one of the reasons I stay.

Catalina

 

[Alladesria]

I guess whether I intended it to be or not, the thread is turning into a "what's wrong with Jade" commentary! *laughs*

Oh no dear! That isn't it at all!. I was hoping to make you feel better, not worse.
I guess I just wanted to tell you that I've been there and this is what works for me. I have plenty of doubts about who I am and where I am going. I have a million what if's and should have's running through my head. I just wanted you to know that you weren't alone.

*big hugs*

-Ally

 

[phoenixstone]

What Alladesria said! And also...

But that's what rebelling is! (It just doesn't usually come back to bite you in the butt so hard. And when it does, it's usually early on like that, because one doesn't yet have the experience and instincts to be able to protect onesself.)

So I just don't think of myself as having been rebelling, I think of myself as screwing up and not doing what my folks said to do.

Definitely not meaning any of this as 'what's wrong with Jade.' (I was hard on myself about the same thing in the same way, so it's really empathy.) It took me forever to play 'what if it was somebody else doing the exact same thing.' My going on that overnight field trip was also against my mother's wishes. I thought she was trying to spoil my fun and being over-protective. And maybe she was. But she was also right that time.

If this has been annoyingly coherent, it's only because I've thought about it over quite a few years until it made some sort of useful, objective sense for me. (The other part was truly finding out that I really Couldn't have fought the guy off. I tried and couldn't do it and blamed myself for that, too. It wasn't until I learned how to fight (in a self-defense class called Impact) that I truly got it that I really hadn't had the skills before. That that, too, was not my fault. (I'd somehow gotten the idea from movies or something that the 'truly virtuous' always got saved or were able to save themselves. My failure then became proof of my lack of worthiness. A very vicious cycle.)

Oh, and btw, I used to be on here a lot (couldn't find my old password to get back into my old avatar Phoenix Stone) so some oldtimers know me -- as a mouthy, wanna-be subbie, hardass, sub-from-the-bottom type, who has hardcore fantasies around assault. These pre-dated the attack (don't know where that stuff comes from) and for many, many years the 'unpleasant' reality spoiled a perfectly good fantasy.

Letting myself enjoy the fantasies that happen to hit my buttons, and letting myself be ok with that, and explore them in a fantasy context, is for me, a way of gaining back control of my own body and mind.

(I even think of it as a rebellion against rl rapists -- sort of a: Hah! You don't get to spoil my fantasy life with your grubby, icky reality, or make me feel guilty for having them -- or for YOU did. I didn't want THAT to happen. (YOU, rapist, did it wrong!) And, I didn't want it to happen with YOU! (I get to pick and choose and decide! You, rapist, are not a 'good enough'!)

(See? Perfectly happy to share 'what's wrong with phoenixstone!')

I bet, too, that it's that very good little girl who's still interjecting her 'goody-goody' opinion of how she wasn't perfect that one time and how terrible that is! (There's no way to be safe except in a bubble.)

And, er?, what was the topic again?

Touche.

I was a very -good- kid. I can't say as I'm proud of that -now-, but at the time, I was your annoying little goody-goody all A's and B's kinda kid. So I just don't think of myself as having been rebelling, I think of myself as screwing up and not doing what my folks said to do. (And boy, did I get in trouble the next day, too! )

You make very good points, though, and you're totally not out of place commenting!

I guess whether I intended it to be or not, the thread is turning into a "what's wrong with Jade" commentary! *laughs*

You all are so much better than I am at putting your thoughts into a nice coherent order. Thank you all for offering your opinions, insights, and thoughts, both on the original subject and on what it's wandered off into.

 

[phoenixstone]

Topic, anyone?

...
What I am curious about is, why would someone who has been abused/assaulted/raped later choose to willingly engage in BDSM-related activities? (most especially on the sub side, although not exclusively.)
[/COLOR]

For me, it was about regaining control over a pre-dated interest. For others, probably gaining control. Doing it on their own terms. But why? Because intense experiences are easy to sexualize -- especially those that are already in the general territory. So you get to experience the intensity but this time turn it into something fun and in your control. (I wonder if someone who was traumatized by an auto accident might want to play at slot car races or bumper cars or something, to 'get back on the horse' so to speak?)

I suspect my pre-dating interest in this fantasy had its base in my having sexualized being 'spanked' as a kid, as a defense against a way too powerful and unescapable force/control situation. (Or maybe I just have kinky genes -- I have some clues that my parents were into some mild s&m.)

(Hope this doesn't offend anyone here, as it's only about me, not you But for me the point is that after so many years it doesn't appear to be 'fixable,' it's not hurting anyone, and embracing this part of myself is a relief.
I've wondered if it's like the nature/nurture homosexuality question (which seems to have finally been settled as primarily nature). I guess what I mean is that I Don't think such an experience 'turns' you, but that some propensity in the direction must pre-exist. That experiences can trigger responses. But that how one deals with such an experience varies from person to person.

And that finally, what matters more is what one tells onesself about it and what one feels about it.

It used to really bug me, and now it doesn't. I used to give the rapist (and my mother, the spanker) 'credit' for my kink, and now I don't. They get credit for hurting and scaring me. They don't get credit for anything to do with my sexuality. Anymore than I'd give credit to the out-of-control driver who crashed the car with me in it as a kid, for my propensity for enjoying white water rafting. But that's my decision to think about it that way.

 

[shy slave]

It just seems backwards. I won't ask if anyone else has similar experiences -- that isn't my business, and it's just rude -- but I just want to know if anyone with a better insight into what drives people (and what encourages them to seek out BDSM-related activities) has any ideas.

I realise I probably sound like a complete idiot, but I respectfully request that all comments along those lines be directed in private PM's. This was -not- an easy post to make, for a multitude of reasons, and I would like to at least see a good discussion grow out of it. Thank you!

This must have been a difficult post to write.

I don't have any ideas about drives people per se to BDSM activities.
I would surmise its about how people respond to incidents in their lives both at the time and long after they happened.

Not every small boy who was treated as a 'man' desires to be more feminine, but some do.
Not every female who has been attacked at some point in their lives becomes a Domme, but some do.
Others turn in completely different circles.

I believe it must be a mix of nature & nurture. Add into the mix a point in everyones life when they evaluate who they are, where they are and what they want to do and be.

As children we look to our adult role models to give direction and guidence about life, but as adults we don't have to follow those patterns if we find they make us unhappy.

Its a scary thought, but we can be whomever we want to be.

I was involved as a young child with a family who groomed me for activities they were interested in.

I don't think that experience on its own made me a submissive, but I think it has played a part in my life time interest in older men. It also helped drive that desire to be shown a level of care that I could not find in vanilla relationships.

Its hard to break out of patterns that have been set out by our upbringing and society. It can give rise to all kinds of thoughts and fears about who and what we are.

When I first discovered D/s i was terrified I would become a pervert who was in some way abnormal or a freak. I was very concerned people I worked with would discover I had a 'hidden' side.
I am not in that frame of mind any longer, I am more sure about who I am and what I want.

Lots of life experiences, and how I reacted to those experiences, have added up to make me the whole person I am. Life continues to jump up and bite me, but I am still the person I want to be, which includes being a slave to someone who understands I cannot be a doormat.

 

[jadefirefly]

I feel like I've abandoned my thread. Sorry! New Years festivities called.

Again, I think it's kind of interesting, how I believe in the nature side of the nature vs. nurture discussion when it comes up, but it never really occurred to me that the same argument could be applied to my own preferences, too. And doesn't -that- sound pretentious -- that I could actually make judgements about other people without deigning to look at myself! Wow.

For Ally, and phoenix stone, and shy, and anyone I may have forgotten, you all have given me quite a lot of things to think about that I may not have if you all hadn't spoken up. I'm glad I worked up the guts to post.

 

[LilyMelb]

Interesting topic! Haven't read all the replies, so forgive me if I repeat anything anyone else has said, but here's my two cents worth....

.... As a sub by nature, I find it very very hard to simply say 'no'. I haven't been physically abused in my life, although I have been in a very emotionally abusive (vanilla) relationship...

...but I was wondering if perhaps the diffuclty many submissives have with simply saying 'no' might sometimes lead them into situations in which abuse is more likely...?

Okay, I'm really really generalising here, sorry about that... but perhaps - and I'm happy for everybody to tell me I'm dead wrong - the submissive personality is more generally prone to vulnerabilities which can be taken advantage of in abusive situations....

But that doesn't make the desires or personality any less submissive - it just might make it harder for that person to explore or embrace their submissiveness....

Does that even make any sense at all...? lol it's getting late here in Melbourne and I've had little sleep., heh....

Cheers,
Lily

 

[jadefirefly]

And that, Lily, is where you hit on something I was wondering, too.

I am sure that most of those on this site with sub tendencies are well-adjusted enough that they've no problem saying no, and sticking to it, when they mean it. There is a difference, after all, in submissive, and just being a doormat.

But what of all those people out there -- the type, for example, who will finally work up the courage to leave one abusive relationship only to immediately find a new one -- who really can't say no? Are they actually submissive, then, or just weak-willed?

I know I'm not lacking in willpower when I need it, and I'm sure most of those here are the same. But my curiousity extends beyond those who post here, and covers all sorts of people, everywhere.

It's an interesting train of thought.

 

[catalina_francisco]

But what of all those people out there -- the type, for example, who will finally work up the courage to leave one abusive relationship only to immediately find a new one -- who really can't say no? Are they actually submissive, then, or just weak-willed?

The short answer is they are neither. Those who enter abusive relationships do so through a complicated set of circumstances and triggers which leave them vulnerable to the abuser. The underlying issues which leave them exposed to the realtionship and remaining in it or going onto another, come from prior experiences and/or belief patterns about themselves, which can then be capitalised on by the abuser to a point where it is not that simple as saying no and leaving. For many, to do so results in death which is why as a counsellor who works with such women, you never take it upon yourself to tell a woman she has to leave unless you are prepared to live with the guilt of knowing you might have saved her further abuse but also been instrumental in leading her to her death and/or pehaps those of her children.

Catalina

 

[MechaBlade]

What I am curious about is, why would someone who has been abused/assaulted/raped later choose to willingly engage in BDSM-related activities? (most especially on the sub side, although not exclusively.)

You can't choose what gets you off.