Online and Real Life BDSM

[MissTaken]

So with all due respect, to start by assuming that every post in this forum is a sincere attempt at communication with the general readership is very shaky. We all filter our self-perceptions, but there is a difference between not being fully self-aware and deliberately posting make believe. I can only attach significance to people who present themselves in a consistently honest manner...which sometimes means showing your warts. Who wants to suggest I be respectful to people who post fiction or just want attention without making a contribution? Maybe it is a sign of excessive "online-ness" that people's bullshit detectors are so out of kilter.

There are plenty of bullshit artists here and elsewhere. However, keeping that in mind, you may miss a rose by assuming stinkweed.

Further, what does it hurt to either be respectful or ignore them?

By and large, and I may be wrong in my observation, the players come and go. Those with a serious interest, a healthy appetite for BDSM of any ilk have staying power.

 

[Guest]

LOL, oh half of these are RT at least half. The whole world suddenly becomes a switch when turned on enough, it seems. He'll I've done silly things over hot women.

ROFL...Well Netz..In spite of the mask..You aren't the Lone Ranger there.....

 

[Netzach]

ROFL...Well Netz..In spite of the mask..You aren't the Lone Ranger there.....

You have no idea some of the idiocy I've committed over the right kind of girl...

hey, I just typed "hell" "he'll" That's a new low.

Ok, no more hijack sorry.

 

[Guest]

I'm sorry to disagree Catilina.
I see this as 2 seperate entities.
True, RL BDSMers do communicate extensively online. It is part of real life. But comparing RL to OL is like comparing apples to oranges.

RL=BDSM
OL=Fantasy play

Just MHO.

While I find I share a great deal of the above opinion.....

I think I can trace my BDSM life back to spanking the naked (and quite nice BTW) ass of my high school girlfriend..Or rather wanting to in the first place. And getting quite a lot of satisfaction (on several levels) in the process..
The " 'Net" didn't exist then..Or at least not in any form that would be recognized today.
So I guess this emphasis on real life still tends to color my perceptions..
That said..
I really don't worry too much about the RL versus OL argument.. Are they the same?
No.
OL is fantasy.. At least in the respect that it doesn't involve the skin to skin contact of real people. With all the periodicly annoying consequences that attend..
Do I care if this is how you get you jollies/fulfillment?
Nope..
But what does annoy the hell out of me is the folks that feel it necessary to try and "piss on my shoes, and tell me it's raining".
So yeah, when they come on with the shit about a scene involving a sixteen foot bullwhip, a chainsaw, stungun, and hanging the sub upside down for six hours..Yeah, I'm gonna give em a hard time..(when they don't distinguish between RL and OL)
Or the other silly crap ..Hmm See Rosco's fluff thread "My Master was cross with me today" or some such..
I DO have a certain amount of sympathy for the people who have met online and are trying to make the transition. Because for every "it worked wonderfully", there seem to be a hundred "well they weren't anything like they were online's".
If for no other reason becuase I am jumping through so many hoops so that my Pearl and I can be together. In full time RL, as opposed to the part time RL that we have now*sigh*.
Having a little bit of what you need, is often worse than not having it at all..Or at least feels that way sometimes...

I suppose that I am stuck with seeing OL as being an adjunct to communication for people in RL..Just like a phone.

 

[Guest]

You have no idea some of the idiocy I've committed over the right kind of girl...

hey, I just typed "hell" "he'll" That's a new low.

Ok, no more hijack sorry.

Yes..Yes I do..believe me...*sigh*

 

[SweetDommes]

But you see that is really not the point we are talking about here, what we are talking is the inability of RL to respect OL. That RL is not OL that seems to me pretty clear. But we seem to have a movement which claims that if you do not conform to their way of BDSM it is not BDSM.

The problem I am having with this is simple, who is going to decide what real BDSM is and what is not. Are we going to turn ourselves all into neat heterosexual male dominated 24/7 or do we acknowledge that there are more possibilities, and what are we going to include in OL, and what are we going to include in RL?

My only issue with this is that it is not just OL vs RL that has this problem. Although it is less prevalent here than in other forums, there is also Pro vs nonPro, Dom vs Domme, sub vs slave, 24/7 vs only in the bedroom, and so on .. as I pointed out above.

Just like any other topic, just like any other issue - there are going to be people who try and ostracise others for whatever piddly little excuse they can come up with ... hell, I was on a girl-loves-girl forum with Holly, and we were treated like crap by some of the members because we are bi - even though we were far from the only bisexuals there, we were just the only ones who posted regularly, and did mention it on occation. It happens due to color, it happens due to religion, it happens because there are always small minded people who have to make themselves feel like they are better than everyone else. This is why we have hate crimes, this is why we have wars, this is why we have had a history full of genocide and attrocities.

The fact that some feel the need to make outcasts even among us, who are already not really welcome in mainstream society, saddens me greatly ... but all the talking in the world is not going to change the minds of these people ... all we can really hope for is that they get quiet when they don't get the attention that they crave.

 

[catalina_francisco]

When I started out in BDSM I pleaded and begged to get a good and experienced mentor. I was lucky I got the mentor I had, she taught me many things but one of the most important was to value everyone and be polite and respectful to everyone to start with and then yes if they did not deserve respect remove it. She taught me that to be a good Dominant you have to be a good leader and the best leaders are those that lead by example. Maybe I was mentored by an old-fashioned lady, she believed in courtesy.

If an OL wants to give me advice on Bull whipping while they have not ever seen a bull whip I will find it funny make a joke about it and ignore the comment. But yes I will correct the person.

By the way EVIKTAR, chainsaw?!

Also I have to agree with Miss Karen again this not only RL against OL, it is the out casting culture which we seem to live in apparently there are people who feel the need for scapegoats. I have to stop agreeing with you Miss Karen, people are going to start making the wrong conclusions.

Francisco.

 

[catalina_francisco]

The reason I don't respect some people around here is because I think they are full of shit. I think their posts are purely fictional. Certain posters operate more than one account and sometimes perform make-believe to put on a public show. There are always trolls. There are phony little frauds who are just here to try to shock people with talk of beastiality, rape and necrophilia. I am sick of drama queens with all of their ugly nude pictures and adolescent cries for attention. There are people who try to posture, vastly overstating their experience (either real or online) to seem experienced, yet their words over the course of weeks or months don't bear it out. For what reasons do people do all of the above? Perhaps they are using the public forums as an audition to locate a sympathetic one-on-one audience.

So with all due respect, to start by assuming that every post in this forum is a sincere attempt at communication with the general readership is very shaky. We all filter our self-perceptions, but there is a difference between not being fully self-aware and deliberately posting make believe. I can only attach significance to people who present themselves in a consistently honest manner...which sometimes means showing your warts. Who wants to suggest I be respectful to people who post fiction or just want attention without making a contribution? Maybe it is a sign of excessive "online-ness" that people's bullshit detectors are so out of kilter.

I share some of your sentiments, especially about consistency over time (produces an interesting observation at times), but I also remind myself regularly this is a discussion board on what most perceive to be a porn site. As with any location OL or RL, you will get a mixture of personalities.....one does not necessarily disqualify the other as real or fake. I try as in all life situations to give people the benifit of the doubt and even if they prove there might be reason to question something it doesn't bother me long term because simply put, what they do, who they really are does not influence who I am in my own life.....they are words on a screen I can take from what is of value for me and leave the rest. I credit myself with having enough common sense to not follow the advice of one poster only or someone who doles out advice that is clearly off, especially in situations which could be dangerous. I am going to look at a variety of answers, analyse them logically, then do what I feel is the best approach for me.

The nude pics? They are fun for some people, they are exhibitionism for others....both legitimate aspects of BDSM relationships and porn. The upside I see of them is that someone who is going to post pics of themselves, especially when they are more than a few, are more likely real people acting openly than someone who strives to remain mysterious and give away very little about who they are as a person. It shows emotion which to me always speaks honesty to me louder than detatched analytical and secretive mystery. The subjects such as beastiality, rape, and necrophelia? Don't think necrophelia is legal anywhere in the world, but beastiality is and as this board is international you are going to find people who will share such desires.....and that does not take into account that it is a popular fantasy in the USA despite it's illegality and taboo. Similarly, rape is one of the most common fantasies for women, even vanilla women, so I don't see the raising of those topics as fantasies etc., as attention seeking shock value for everyone. To do that is once again buying into the argument 'your kink is not my kink' so mine must be right and yours is not.

Catalina

 

[Netzach]

Your kink is ok, but that doesn't mean I can't question your motives or even criticize your kink. I didn't think that critical amnesty is the idea here at lit, just look at the GB, we're the supposed sadists and we're the welcome wagon by comparison.

Ad Hominiem is not ok, as I understand it. I can certainly state here and now that I find bestiality totally repugnant.

 

[sunfox]

Your kink is ok, but that doesn't mean I can't question your motives or even criticize your kink. I didn't think that critical amnesty is the idea here at lit, just look at the GB, we're the supposed sadists and we're the welcome wagon by comparison.

Ad Hominiem is not ok, as I understand it. I can certainly state here and now that I find bestiality totally repugnant.

Yes, me too. I love my pets, but I don't LOVE my pets.

I think the larger issue, in the case of OL vs. RT, or any other 'Yours is lesser than mine' situation encompassed in BDSM, is that of tolerance.

I may not care for what you do. It may not be what is right for me, or what I desire. I may think it's vaguely silly, even.

But I don't care that you do it. That's your thing. I have mine. And even if the two can never meet in the middle, that doesn't mean I think you're stupid or not on a par with me.

(Other than the vanity thing, but that's neither here nor there. )

So while I don't do OL, I don't invalidate it as a method of communication and education. I don't feel that, personally, I'd ever feel fulfilled in an OL relationship. But that's me, and I don't expect everyone to be just like me.

So in conclusion, get over yourself. (For the thin-skinned and/or paranoid, this is a general 'you', not a specific 'you'.) Your way isn't the only way. If they're trolls, they'll go away. If they're stupid, they'll forget their password eventually, and also go away. But even though I may not be into OL, or <insert your hated subsection of BDSM here>, I also won't hesitate to tear into someone who is attacking a newcomer with a question, just because they're not RT.

 

[catalina_francisco]

Your kink is ok, but that doesn't mean I can't question your motives or even criticize your kink. I didn't think that critical amnesty is the idea here at lit, just look at the GB, we're the supposed sadists and we're the welcome wagon by comparison.

Ad Hominiem is not ok, as I understand it. I can certainly state here and now that I find bestiality totally repugnant.

That is true, but I just hate the notion that arises here from time to time that if a person does not share a particular taste, one who does must be attention seeking or sick or superior thinking or just should not raise the subject...and these observations are often not restricted to the more out there topics such as beastiaity but may be as simple as 24/7 and TPE.

Catalina

 

[A Desert Rose]

There are plenty of bullshit artists here and elsewhere. However, keeping that in mind, you may miss a rose by assuming stinkweed.

Further, what does it hurt to either be respectful or ignore them?

By and large, and I may be wrong in my observation, the players come and go. Those with a serious interest, a healthy appetite for BDSM of any ilk have staying power.

This is too true. If you have that good a bullshit filter, then it's not hard to filter out the bullshit artists. (I've been here long enough to figure whose posts I bypass and those I seek out to read... case in point, MissT's, always.)

It's certainly not hard, for me at least, to see the posturing that is being done by some.

And I have to agree with Catalina... there is bias against all sorts of things including those (like myself) who do not live a 24/7 - slave/Master - BDSM thing. It's my personal choice, for my personal reasons, to live like I do but that does not make my opinions any less valid than those of Catalinas.

 

[A Desert Rose]

My views on the division between fantasy & real life are well known. I am engaged to & live with my Master however our lifestyle confines our BDSM to the bedroom, so it's more in line with ADR than a 24/7 thing I'd say. We did the usual thing, we dated, in person.

I don't consider this discussion board to be an online relationship & like Netzach I don't consider that the bulk of the culture is online either.

I'm aware that many people take their online stuff really seriously and I often wonder in how many other types of activities that this would be accepted as real or even take place. Someone has mentioned before a Veterans' forum & how online soldiers would be regarded. I'm active in a horse riding forum & I can just imagine the response should I mention my virtual win on my virtual dressage mount LOL. So why should it be that in order to be known as open minded & liberal in our views & tolerance, we are told that we have to believe in the fantasy too?

Online is convenient for meeting people, as letters once were. It's also an easy & lazy way to conduct a relationship. It's always going to be at your own convenience & if it doesn't work out the way you want it to ie fulfills the fantasy you personally have of the BDSM practices, you can turn it off without another thought. Please don't try to tell me that there's so much more to it because fact is you CAN turn it off whenever you choose to do so.

I'm not trying to offend anyone either, but I actually feel that I'm entitled to write my opinion here, just as Francisco has done in presenting his views to us all. Basically all readers will have their own opinions anyway & are free to agree or disagree as they see fit. I do feel that sometimes we are expected, in order to avoid healthy discussion of certain issues, to follow a particular idea. It does remind me of the Seinfeld "Gay, not that there's anything wrong with that" episode.

I think you and I have a great deal in common. I can only ditto your post. Like I said, there are some posters I seek out to read. ;-)

And this bears repeating: I do feel that sometimes we are expected, in order to avoid healthy discussion of certain issues, to follow a particular idea.

 

[catalina_francisco]

I think you and I have a great deal in common. I can only ditto your post. Like I said, there are some posters I seek out to read. ;-)

And this bears repeating: I do feel that sometimes we are expected, in order to avoid healthy discussion of certain issues, to follow a particular idea.

When presenting a thought the normal procedure is to present it in a logical and concise manner and to evaluate critically the available evidence for the presented hypothesis. Normally there will be reactions in favour or against the presented proposition. In cases where the debaters of the hypothesis feel passionate about the presented case the discussion will normally be more passionate.

I see debating as walking a tightrope where balance is what keeps you from falling flat on your face.

When there have been reactions towards the presented hypothesis be it in favour or against it is normally followed by a reaction of the presenter of the original hypothesis. A debate is about discussion, open discussions where agreements and disagreements are followed, where ideas are exchanged and where the hypothesis is adjusted according to the presented arguments. When entering a debate it is only fair to expect your opponents to present their case to the best of their capabilities.

Strong points brought up by the debaters will often influence the defended hypothesis and in the end will also influence the original ideas.
There should be some rules followed during a debate, each post should have relevant content, it should stay on-topic, or be a rebuttal. Ad hominem and personal attacks are not allowed and should be treated with contempt by all participants of a discussion.

A debate can be played very strategically, and one of the strategies that is often used when the arguments of the presented thought are too strong to be rebutted is to try to discredit the opposing debaters or the way the debate is being handled.

I always find it humorous when I see this happening; it shows me the strength of my arguments and ideas. I enjoy debating and do not take things personal. I find it entertaining when my opponents resort to guerrilla tactics and show their true colours.

Francisco.

 

[bridgeburner]

Yep, there is a lot of silliness exhibited by vocal "online only" players. I don't think anyone should be taken seriously when he's talking out his ass about something he knows nothing about - see Francisco's bullwhip example.

HOWEVER

I have quite a few online friends. Some of them I've known for years. Many of them I've met face to face, but more of them I haven't.

Are those friendships without merit because I've never personally shaken the hands of three of the people I've been running an online forum with for over five years? Is it a nasty trick of my imagination that I feel sorrow when they have bad times or joy when they have good?

If one of my online friends were to die would I be expected to just delete his name from my buddies list and think no more about it?

So, if you can care about your online friends --- even care deeply -- then why can you not experience a certain amount of BDSM online? Of course it isn't equivalent, but assuming the people are honest with one another, like-mindedness is something that can be shared whether one is face to face with another or thousands of miles away.

As for whether these relationships would work in meatspace or not, that's not particularly relevant. They are what they are. Most of them probably wouldn't--- but most relationships that begin face to face don't survive the pressures of real life either, so it's hardly a useful scoring point.

So, sure, disdain the idiocy of a person who's never been spanked talking about how sore her ass is from her cyber-whipping. I'll be right there with you rolling my eyes. But I'm not about to tell someone that he didn't feel a true commitment to walk six blocks in drag because his online Mistress required it of him.

-B

 

[A Desert Rose]

...There should be some rules followed during a debate... Ad hominem and personal attacks are not allowed and should be treated with contempt by all participants of a discussion.
...

A debate can be played very strategically, and one of the strategies that is often used when the arguments of the presented thought are too strong to be rebutted is to try to discredit the opposing debaters or the way the debate is being handled. ...

Francisco.

I see this happen all too frequently.

 

[Silverlily]

If one of my online friends were to die would I be expected to just delete his name from my buddies list and think no more about it?

As someone who has lost an online friend, I agree with you 100%. A friend is a friend regardless of how you came to know one another. The pain of losing that friend was every bit as real as the pain of losing a family member.

I also agree with disdain for "knowledge" of physical activities when they have never been played out in real life. How can you advise a piercing when you've never seen the needle?

Still were it not for online forums and communities, some of us (ie. me) would never have met others into certain kinks. Munches and groups are wonderful, but sometimes the reality of everyday life prevent such activities. There was a time not too distant that if I had been seen at such a gathering, I could have lost my children. It was only through anonymity online has to offer I was able to learn more and meet likeminded people.

For me personally skin on skin contact is a must, but I understand not everyone has that luxury.

 

[shy slave]

As I have stated before on these boards, it's very sad that even the outcasts must make outcasts ...
Miss Karen

I agree with Miss Karen on this.

Soem BDSM people wear it like a badge and appear to expect a lack of understanding and respect from others, other BDSM people see things differently but are not surprised by a lack of understanding or respect from vanilla.

How can we ask the rest of the community to respect what we do if we cannot respect each other and how they choose to live their live.

O/l can be very real and R/l can be fantasy the lines can be blurred, and nothing fits into any particular box; unless within our life we want it to.

 

[SweetDommes]

Also I have to agree with Miss Karen again this not only RL against OL, it is the out casting culture which we seem to live in apparently there are people who feel the need for scapegoats. I have to stop agreeing with you Miss Karen, people are going to start making the wrong conclusions.

Francisco.

*snicker* I doubt it ... we are definately not each others types ... LOL (not to mention that I bet catalina can be quite the jealous one ... )

 

[Netzach]

Ever a voice of sanity.

Remember where I said it's a tool, can be used for good or for stupid? You kind of summed that up.

And yes, contacts made with people where you trade names and offer floors to crash on in distant cities, and go out on the town and watch transvestite hookers get picked up together -- these are actual friendships of import.

(mushily)
~N

Yep, there is a lot of silliness exhibited by vocal "online only" players. I don't think anyone should be taken seriously when he's talking out his ass about something he knows nothing about - see Francisco's bullwhip example.

HOWEVER

I have quite a few online friends. Some of them I've known for years. Many of them I've met face to face, but more of them I haven't.

Are those friendships without merit because I've never personally shaken the hands of three of the people I've been running an online forum with for over five years? Is it a nasty trick of my imagination that I feel sorrow when they have bad times or joy when they have good?

If one of my online friends were to die would I be expected to just delete his name from my buddies list and think no more about it?

So, if you can care about your online friends --- even care deeply -- then why can you not experience a certain amount of BDSM online? Of course it isn't equivalent, but assuming the people are honest with one another, like-mindedness is something that can be shared whether one is face to face with another or thousands of miles away.

As for whether these relationships would work in meatspace or not, that's not particularly relevant. They are what they are. Most of them probably wouldn't--- but most relationships that begin face to face don't survive the pressures of real life either, so it's hardly a useful scoring point.

So, sure, disdain the idiocy of a person who's never been spanked talking about how sore her ass is from her cyber-whipping. I'll be right there with you rolling my eyes. But I'm not about to tell someone that he didn't feel a true commitment to walk six blocks in drag because his online Mistress required it of him.

-B

 

[bridgeburner]

contacts made with people where you trade names and offer floors to crash on in distant cities, and go out on the town and watch transvestite hookers get picked up together

Woo-hoo! It's a date!!

I'll see if I can't find Ballerina Man the Smoking Fetishist for you as well!


-B

 

[Netzach]

LOL

see, online media can hook me up with the west coast's weirdest. I love the 21st century.

 

[incubus'_sub]

I enjoy debating too, particularly when the responses are coming from posters who continue, as they always have, to fly their true colours high & proud at all times.

Does it matter if we disagree with each other? No, not at all. What does matter is being able to put your views & opinions across as you see them, not watered down, wishy washy, one size fits all ideas.

Much has been said about respect and whilst I have great respect for people's rights to believe in whatever they want to, I do not have to respect the pretense that online fantasies are real. To me, walking around in drag on orders from an online mistress means less about commitment & more about losing touch with your real world, more of a modern day shared masturbatory tool, not that there's anything wrong with that.

To use Francisco's points about flight simulators. Yes, they are a very useful tool to educate pilots about procedures, but simulator hours do not count as flight hours & may only be entered in the pilot's log as simulator time. Why.......because it is NOT real experience. There is a vast difference, no matter how much you try to pretend otherwise, between making an error which will result in "OOPS, you're dead" typed on a screen & making an error which will result in fiery death.

 

[A Desert Rose]

... To me, walking around in drag on orders from an online mistress means less about commitment & more about losing touch with your real world, more of a modern day shared masturbatory tool, not that there's anything wrong with that. ...

This is just toooo funny to pass up. This warrented a "pee your pants" alert for me.

 

[Netzach]

Hm.

Maybe I am being shoved into the online camp.

But I had had my current long distance slave doing loopy things of that ilk for about 6 months before I met him. By the time I met him, he had been completely attuned to my voice, completely dedicated to the idea of serving, and very in tune with my likes and dislikes.

It's rare, but I'd say that to him, it made little difference to him whether I was there to tell him in person to get into his red satin corset, gloves and cincher, or for me to put him into them and lace him tight...
save that the latter was better. Much better.

That's that unquantifiable difference, I'd say.