Online and Real Life BDSM

[bridgeburner]

Incubus'_sub,

I don't know whose analogy the flight simulator was initially, but I don't think it's particularly apt. It sets up a straw man argument which several people seem inclined to waltz with.

You point out that if you crash your simulated plane you don't actually die so the experience is not real. I'm quite happy to agree with that, but it doesn't apply to the situation in which two people who aren't face to face are taking real actions.

If you dress up in drag and walk down the street you've actually dressed up in drag and walked down the street. The only thing that is different is whether you recieved your order in person, over the phone, online or from a rolled up note you've been waiting to pull out of your ass since your Mistress tucked it in there this morning before she left for her spa day.

Some people's online experience is more real than others. It depends on the people involved and the nature of their relationship. To dismiss anyone and everyone who plays online is just pique, not logic.

-B

 

[A Desert Rose]

Hm.

Maybe I am being shoved into the online camp.

But I had had my current long distance slave doing loopy things of that ilk for about 6 months before I met him. By the time I met him, he had been completely attuned to my voice, completely dedicated to the idea of serving, and very in tune with my likes and dislikes.

It's rare, but I'd say that to him, it made little difference to him whether I was there to tell him in person to get into his red satin corset, gloves and cincher, or for me to put him into them and lace him tight...
save that the latter was better. Much better.

That's that unquantifiable difference, I'd say.

I've said it before... I think there is bandwidth enough for everyone's opinions here, regardless of their "style" of bdsm. It's no skin off my nose if they are onliners only or not. It's not hard and doesn't take long to learn to scroll past those whose opinions aren't of interest to you.

What I do think is wrong is when one is made to feel that their "style" is unwelcome by a select few. Stifling anyone's voice is a loss to everyone, eventually.

 

[AngelicAssassin]

Yes, they are a very useful tool to educate pilots about procedures, but simulator hours do not count as flight hours & may only be entered in the pilot's log as simulator time. Why.......because it is NOT real experience.

Incorrect. United States Army Aviators record simulator time as a separate entity, but the time counts towards overall flight hours for both pay purposes and Senior/Master Aviator badges.

There is a vast difference, no matter how much you try to pretend otherwise, between making an error which will result in "OOPS, you're dead" typed on a screen & making an error which will result in fiery death.

Incorrect once again. Airline pilots routinely run their emergency procedure drills over and over in a simulator. Why would any airline wish to risk a crew and a multi-million dollar aircraft on a "crippled by proxy" aircraft to practice any multitude of in flight problems?

NASA regularly does and has done simulator drills during real time missions to evaluate solutions to real time problems.

If you've never exited a simulator with a massive headache and vertigo from the ride and/or sick to your stomach from wearing a scopolamine patch to ameliorate the effects of the ride, i can excuse your misunderstanding of how real a simulator mission can be.

 

[rosco rathbone]

Once again my third eye proves nearly infallible. I always saw AA as a pilot guy with a huge chronometer on his hairy wrist.

 

[Kajira Callista]

Once again my third eye proves nearly infallible. I always saw AA as a pilot guy with a huge chronometer on his hairy wrist.

go shave and go to SLEEP!

 

[AngelicAssassin]

... with a huge chronometer on his hairy wrist.

Not quite infallible.

Never bought the Rolex, nor the Corvette. i did have a plastic glow in the dark Mickey Mouse strapped to the kneeboard for tracking rounds' time to target when i flew scouts. Otherwise, i used the in dash clock.

 

[catalina_francisco]

Hmmm, another point which just came to me was something I read awhile back about an invention which is basically a sex toy you can attach to your computer so one person can control what sensations the person on the other end receives....so that would add another dimension to online play also I would think.

Catalina

 

[Kajira Callista]

Hmmm, another point which just came to me was something I read awhile back about an invention which is basically a sex toy you can attach to your computer so one person can control what sensations the person on the other end receives....so that would add another dimension to online play also I would think.

Catalina

i know im weird...but i want one of those damnit! well i do. its called a sinulator.

 

[Mr Blonde]

I have a good response to MissTaken and Catalina but why bother bringing the thread back on topic?


"Tag, you're it!"

Anyone seen any good movies lately?

*makes motorboat noises*

 

[arctic-stranger]

I have a good response to MissTaken and Catalina but why bother bringing the thread back on topic?


"Tag, you're it!"

Anyone seen any good movies lately?

*makes motorboat noises*

anyone here ever heard of the band Ratatat?

 

[crimsonlace]

Just as each r/l bdsm relationship is different, each o/l relationship is different. There are some online relationships that are little more than occasional cybersex....there are some that are intensely intimate, personal and fulfilling on an ongoing basis.

Are they exactly the same? No.

Are real life and online exactly the same? No.

Are there ANY bdsm relationships that are exactly the same? No....imo.

Each deserves respect as long as they are represented honestly. There are bs-ers in real life as well as online, they do not define the medium.

 

[incubus'_sub]

Baby hijack simply to answer AA.

My observations are not incorrect but are Aussie rules not USA. Info from Incubus, former Royal Aus Air Force Flight Engineer and I believe that I actually wrote that the hours are counted as training, but as simulator hours. My point was the difference in consequences, a point you made yourself, being that noone wants to risk real planes & real lives during training & practice.

Bridgeburner, the analogy came from Francisco, I simply answered.

Back to the topic, I have no problem with anyone believing whatever they want in their own minds, or even talking about it here. I do have a problem with being told I have to believe in it too.

 

[AngelicAssassin]

Check Fire

My observations are not incorrect but are Aussie rules not USA. Info from Incubus, former Royal Aus Air Force Flight Engineer and I believe that I actually wrote that the hours are counted as training, but as simulator hours.

It doesn't matter where you based your observations. Making an absolute statement renders your observation incorrect, and that is the point. The portion of your post relative to simulator training appears below.

To use Francisco's points about flight simulators. Yes, they are a very useful tool to educate pilots about procedures, but simulator hours do not count as flight hours & may only be entered in the pilot's log as simulator time. Why.......because it is NOT real experience. There is a vast difference, no matter how much you try to pretend otherwise, between making an error which will result in "OOPS, you're dead" typed on a screen & making an error which will result in fiery death.

i may have inferred simulator training doesn't count as training based on your post above. If i did, my apologies for misunderstanding. The US and Australia approach simulator training differently as do fixed and rotary wing aviation. Annual gunnery training starts in the simulator and ends on the range in the US. The procedure saves fuel, ammunition, flight hours and gives the aviator not in a combat zone a refresher before putting live rounds in the aircraft. In the same light, or lack thereof, i frequently took my pilots to the simulator building for a run before going on a reverse cycle. Battle drills in the dark feel a little safer after such a dry run.

Since we're already here, let's take the flight route a little further down the road. Push the envelope so to speak. One might postulate in flight training time, with zero rounds loaded, doesn't equate to true combat time either. Where does it stop? Is the scout pilot that calls for artillery fire any less a combat aviator than the attack pilot that pulls a trigger to send ordnance down range? Are the CAP pilots that flew in both Gulf Wars any less a combat aviator if they flew the battlefield, but didn't have a target to engage? Do you actually have to register a kill to be a real military aviator?

i combined a pair of comments below.

Much has been said about respect and whilst I have great respect for people's rights to believe in whatever they want to, I do not have to respect the pretense that online fantasies are real. To me, walking around in drag on orders from an online mistress means less about commitment & more about losing touch with your real world, more of a modern day shared masturbatory tool, not that there's anything wrong with that ... My point was the difference in consequences, a point you made yourself, being that noone wants to risk real planes & real lives during training & practice. I do have a problem with being told I have to believe in it too.

What is the difference in consequences to the partner that dresses in drag at the order of an online versus real time mistress? The humiliation factor still exists for the partner, the little victory in successful completion of the task still exists for both, and if the partner gets caught dressed in drag, does it make a difference whether the order came from an online versus real time mistress? i don't see a fantasy in the above scenario. Looks like the partner complied with a directive by a mistress.

If a Domme, such as Shadowsdream or Netzach, decides she wishes to take a strap-on to her partner, is it unreal BDSM as well since the cock in question isn't real? Because Etoile takes a strap-on reaming from her wife, or returns the favor if that's her bent, does that make either any less real than 'Cisco reaming kittycat nearly into oblivion? Say an online Master/Mistress has his/her partner fuck themself with a dildo to the point they can't sit down without wincing. Has the partner received any less a painful dominating experience than you have at the hands of yours?

Now, let's really fuck with your head. i'll take the happy middle medium of phone sex since a real component does actually exist there, yet still doesn't qualify as skin to skin. What difference exists between a partner whipping him/herself with the instrument of choice and the same person doing so at the command of a Master/Mistress sitting in the room? Lack of visual and scent stimuli. That's it. Wanna go for double Jeopardy? That same lack of visual and scent stimuli actually makes it harder for the Master/Mistress on the end of the phone to determine when to stop, not that a Master/Mistress in the room with a case of the dumbass proves any less fallible.

i direct the following at everyone in general, not to you specifically incubus'_sub. Believe in whatever you wish. Hold your noses high at whatever you wish. If you think you have to have your skin right next to your partner for the experience to qualify as real BDSM, why do you post to an online forum instead of discussing your real life experiences with other real life BDSMers in a real life setting?

This continual bullshit concerning real versus online smacks of stupidity of the lowest level. Yes, posers exists, but they exist in both worlds. Yes, commitment questions exist, but they exist in both worlds. If you can name a bogus variant in online BDSM, you can find the same animal in real life. If you want nothing to do with online BDSM, ignore the comments presented by those you deem less worthy, but please keep your bigoted posts to a minimum. If you can't figure out how to do that, get the hell out of this online medium all together since you wish to remain pure. Continuing to post about your real life defines oxymoron.

Or, and as the silent majority wish, contribute for the benefit of both real and online practitioners.

 

[Shadowsdream]

Re: Check Fire

It doesn't matter where you based your observations. Making an absolute statement renders your observation incorrect, and that is the point. The portion of your post relative to simulator training appears below.i may have inferred simulator training doesn't count as training based on your post above. If i did, my apologies for misunderstanding. The US and Australia approach simulator training differently as do fixed and rotary wing aviation. Annual gunnery training starts in the simulator and ends on the range in the US. The procedure saves fuel, ammunition, flight hours and gives the aviator not in a combat zone a refresher before putting live rounds in the aircraft. In the same light, or lack thereof, i frequently took my pilots to the simulator building for a run before going on a reverse cycle. Battle drills in the dark feel a little safer after such a dry run.

Since we're already here, let's take the flight route a little further down the road. Push the envelope so to speak. One might postulate in flight training time, with zero rounds loaded, doesn't equate to true combat time either. Where does it stop? Is the scout pilot that calls for artillery fire any less a combat aviator than the attack pilot that pulls a trigger to send ordnance down range? Are the CAP pilots that flew in both Gulf Wars any less a combat aviator if they flew the battlefield, but didn't have a target to engage? Do you actually have to register a kill to be a real military aviator?

i combined a pair of comments below.What is the difference in consequences to the partner that dresses in drag at the order of an online versus real time mistress? The humiliation factor still exists for the partner, the little victory in successful completion of the task still exists for both, and if the partner gets caught dressed in drag, does it make a difference whether the order came from an online versus real time mistress? i don't see a fantasy in the above scenario. Looks like the partner complied with a directive by a mistress.

If a Domme, such as Shadowsdream or Netzach, decides she wishes to take a strap-on to her partner, is it unreal BDSM as well since the cock in question isn't real? Because Etoile takes a strap-on reaming from her wife, or returns the favor if that's her bent, does that make either any less real than 'Cisco reaming kittycat nearly into oblivion? Say an online Master/Mistress has his/her partner fuck themself with a dildo to the point they can't sit down without wincing. Has the partner received any less a painful dominating experience than you have at the hands of yours?

Now, let's really fuck with your head. i'll take the happy middle medium of phone sex since a real component does actually exist there, yet still doesn't qualify as skin to skin. What difference exists between a partner whipping him/herself with the instrument of choice and the same person doing so at the command of a Master/Mistress sitting in the room? Lack of visual and scent stimuli. That's it. Wanna go for double Jeopardy? That same lack of visual and scent stimuli actually makes it harder for the Master/Mistress on the end of the phone to determine when to stop, not that a Master/Mistress in the room with a case of the dumbass proves any less fallible.

i direct the following at everyone in general, not to you specifically incubus'_sub. Believe in whatever you wish. Hold your noses high at whatever you wish. If you think you have to have your skin right next to your partner for the experience to qualify as real BDSM, why do you post to an online forum instead of discussing your real life experiences with other real life BDSMers in a real life setting?

This continual bullshit concerning real versus online smacks of stupidity of the lowest level. Yes, posers exists, but they exist in both worlds. Yes, commitment questions exist, but they exist in both worlds. If you can name a bogus variant in online BDSM, you can find the same animal in real life. If you want nothing to do with online BDSM, ignore the comments presented by those you deem less worthy, but please keep your bigoted posts to a minimum. If you can't figure out how to do that, get the hell out of this online medium all together since you wish to remain pure. Continuing to post about your real life defines oxymoron.

Or, and as the silent majority wish, contribute for the benefit of both real and online practitioners.

Bravo My Friend!

 

[catalina_francisco]

This is a very good post AA one which I concur with completely. Your post has been written in your unique style which is honest, strong and to the point just as the writer.

I especially like the last part, it is very clear that you are directing this to a specific type of posters who have been polluting the board with their one-sided and not to an individual.

Like Shadowsdream said bravo.

Francisco.

 

[catalina_francisco]

I have a good response to MissTaken and Catalina but why bother bringing the thread back on topic?


"Tag, you're it!"

Anyone seen any good movies lately?

*makes motorboat noises*

As the thread has been doing nicely in discussing this topical subject, and kept fairly relevant, I am happy for you to post your responses.....so far no-one has been banned from posting that I am aware of. One of the main points has been about tolerance which IMHO there can never be enough of, but which we all fall on the wrong side of at some point.

Catalina

 

[incubus'_sub]

My head is not that easy to fuck with and the point has nothing to do with USA military practices. A simulator is called a simulator because it simulates the experience of flying without it actually happening.

I've said it before & it appears I'll have to say it again. I don't care what people choose to believe in their own minds, or what they post here. My answer to this thread was simply that I don't appreciate being told that I must share & respect what I see as a simulation.

We do indeed interact with real people & due to our experiences in the lifestyle both Incubus & I do have something to offer here as well. You will find that I rarely, if ever, show lack of respect or rudeness, to those who believe in the online thing. I tend to just skip over it. This particular thread was begun as a debate & I chose to present my view. I know there are those whose views are different. My point, should you choose to accept it, is that we should all be able to present our different opinions.

 

[rosco rathbone]

go shave and go to SLEEP!

NO, mommy.

I WANT JUICE!

 

[Caitlynne]

Re: Check Fire

*SNIP* ...

This continual bullshit concerning real versus online smacks of stupidity of the lowest level. Yes, posers exists, but they exist in both worlds. Yes, commitment questions exist, but they exist in both worlds. If you can name a bogus variant in online BDSM, you can find the same animal in real life. If you want nothing to do with online BDSM, ignore the comments presented by those you deem less worthy, but please keep your bigoted posts to a minimum. If you can't figure out how to do that, get the hell out of this online medium all together since you wish to remain pure. Continuing to post about your real life defines oxymoron.

Or, and as the silent majority wish, contribute for the benefit of both real and online practitioners.

Thank You for putting it squarely where it belongs.

~ cait

 

[catalina_francisco]

I believe like most regulars in BDSM Talk and Café in freedom of speech and the freedom to have your own beliefs and opinions. So to any poster I say, yes, please believe whatever you want to believe.

Every poster on literotica has the right to believe whatever they want. If a person wants to believe that the sun is a moon and that the earth circles Jupiter, that is their own concern.

We all have the same rights, to have our own views and expressions on BDSM, RL and OL all alike, have the same rights to be treated with respect and courtesy.

Francisco.

 

[AngelicAssassin]

My head is not that easy to fuck with and the point has nothing to do with USA military practices.

Sorry to pop your bubble, but your lack of understanding in making a blanket statement as you did has everything to do with the point. Generalizations don't work, especially here, and if i don't nail you for them someone else surely will. i showed you quite simply how your generalization concerning the recording of simulator time didn't work. Whether you don't understand, or choose not to understand online relationships falls squarely on your shoulders. They still exist, still rival the real time relationships of some, and in a few special cases, beat the majority of real time relationships hands down because it suits the fucking parties involved.

A simulator is called a simulator because it simulates the experience of flying without it actually happening.

Tell that to the individuals that practice emergency procedures and firing procedures over and over again in the simulator before needing the same procedures when it counts. i'd rather be with the pilot/copilot that has a 100 hours of simulator time doing just that than a one time lucky survivor of a true in flight emergency. i've been with both. i'd rather not repeat either, but i walked away with the high time simulator copilot in a severe emergency in better shape than the real time pilot in something for which we had forever to ready ourselves.

I've said it before & it appears I'll have to say it again. I don't care what people choose to believe in their own minds, or what they post here. My answer to this thread was simply that I don't appreciate being told that I must share & respect what I see as a simulation.

Get used to it. i don't appreciate seeing the same bullshit rehashed over a subject that shouldn't matter in this medium. This is online in case anyone forgot what reality they joined when signing into Lit. i don't care if you choose to put your real life up here, you're still recounting your real life in an online medium. If i choose to be a stubborn jackass, i could quite easily call bullshit for every statement made by a real timer because you can't prove diddly unless i see it for my own eyes.

One last thing concerning simulation and i'll let it go. Next time incubus dark gives you a directive other than face to face, please remember your words considering simulation. i flat dare you not to comply. Please use your arguments so far as an excuse. i and many of the rest of us would just love to perve on the details.

 

[incubus_dark]

Remote controlling a racing car doesn’t make one a good driver, no matter how well one does it; it makes one a good remote controller. It may give one knowledge that would help them be a better driver were they to try it; I don’t know.

A flight simulator is just that, a simulator, and though it undoubtedly plays a very important role in educating pilots, someone who’s sole experience is in a simulator, is not yet a pilot.

Online BDSM isn’t BDSM, it’s talking about it and fantasising about it, but talk and fantasy aren’t the same as doing. Online sub may roger herself to incapacity with a splintery broom handle, because online dom has told her to, but sub did it to herself and the only point of contact between them on the subject was the exchange of words. I just can’t see how this equates to being the same as a skin to skin BDSM scene, or relationship.

Online is certainly a real thing, since it exists, but it is not the same real thing as ‘real life’ BDSM. There is certainly a real relationship, but like any other form of relationship, there’s an obvious gamut in the degree of sincerity, time commitment, honesty etc. I fail to see though, how it can be thought the same type of relationship as those sharing a skin to skin BDSM experience. Since online is a verbal communication relationship only, like having a pen pal, or a phone friend. As a way of getting to know people, exploring fantasy, having a bit of fun and titillation, it obviously has significant value if the numbers that claim to do it are any indication. What annoys those who are annoyed, I suspect, are those who claim vast BDSM experience, all of which turn out to be online, and is thus really vast experience in talking about it and, of course, the ever present bullshit artists. While I agree that there’s no shortage of the later in the skin to skin scene either, the online medium, being only words, does seem to foster them in greater number; giving them more scope for camouflage.

As for respecting the onliners: Respect is an earned thing, not an automatic thing everybody is entitled too, by dent of being alive. There are certainly people here who have earned mine, as there are people who haven’t and it doesn’t have a lot to do with the mechanics of how they conduct their relationships. What they are entitled to is politeness, and they’re entitled to it up to the point where they stop giving it, after which all bets are off. That doesn’t mean I have to buy into their fantasy and pretend it’s real (in any way more than that it is a real fantasy). However, this doesn’t mean I’m entitles to look down on them as people either, just that I don’t share their view of the world, and that I personally don’t think talking about a thing is the same as doing it.

Why should participating in this online medium, taint the ‘purity’ of someone into skin to skin BDSM? Discussing BDSM via an online board does not equate to espousing an online BDSM relationship, any more than does talking to a friend on the phone about something one did last week; no oxymora are present. It does equate to talking about it, rather than doing it, but the people in question already know that they’re only talking about it, and aren’t pretending that participating in this thread is BDSM.

Of course, these are only my opinions at the moment. Who knows, one of you might say something to change my mind, but it won’t be by accusing me of low stupidity or bigotry, nor by poor analogy or less than polite invitations to leave.

 

[Silverlily]

Of course, these are only my opinions at the moment. Who knows, one of you might say something to change my mind, but it won’t be by accusing me of low stupidity or bigotry, nor by poor analogy or less than polite invitations to leave.

My question is why do you feel you must understand something before it becomes real? Just because something does not suit you or is outside of your realm of experience does not invalidate it's reality.

This was in no way meant as an insult nor was it meant to drive anyone away. Consider it rather an invitation to step outside of a paradigm.

 

[incubus_dark]

By no means have I said that I must understand something for it to be real, and if I’ve given that impression, it’s solely due to my own lack of clarity in expressing myself. Similarly, I have clearly acknowledged the reality of ‘online BDSM’. It is real. It exists. It is an actual form of relationship. I just don’t happen to believe at this time, that it is the same as skin to skin BDSM. I don’t believe the two equate to the same thing; one being talking about the subject and shared fantasy, the other, whilst containing elements of the former, also incorporates doing it together (as opposed to talking about it).

 

[incubus'_sub]

Nail away AA & be as rude as you wish. In that particular instance I considered my general observation to be sufficient. Incubus' military experiences, whilst they may be RAAF rather than USA, are valid. The bullet wound in his leg is very real & no, it didn't come from friendly fire or a training exercise. Should you wish to continue with military stuff, PM him about it. It's extraneous & irrelevant detail in this context.

As neither of us can see the point of distant directives, even when we are apart for some reason, I'm sorry, there will be no perve value. It's not uppity, it's not nose in the air, it's not bigotry & it's not lack of understanding, it's simply how we see it due to the lives & experiences we have had both together & prior to that.

It's possible that you do consider this board to be an online relationship if you want to be pedantic about it, as it is communication via the computer. I see it as just a high speed form of penpals. Fun to do when you have the time, but a problem if it assumes the proportions to take over your mind & body.