Please grovel, bitch?

[LargoKitt]

This is what it's about.

"My kink isn't your kink, and that's okay."
But you don't get to judge my kink from a place of non-understanding. Humiliation, degredation, bodily harm, all of those can fall under the umbrella of safe, sane and most importantly consensual. If it does, there's really nothing more that you need to understand.

Sadly, there are too many people who get off on things that are non-consensual. That's never okay.

Understanding the importance of consent is the first step towards understanding a lot of sexual practices.

You do realize we are talking about a kink that ritualizes non-consent. "It's all okay because she agreed to act like she totally doesn't agree. And I'm getting off on pretending she didn't agree. And my true fantasy is if this was real." Does that pretty much get it? And maybe he can find a really good 'actor' because someone will provide him with an undocumented human-trafficked woman who has been shot up with heroin and doesn't get her next fix until she tells the john, "Sure, I'll do anything you want. Just don't mess up my face...much."

 

[LargoKitt]

They didn't say!

piranha

 

[LargoKitt]

OK, but to add my wrinkle to this: there's all the difference in the world between wanting to practice non-consensual activities in the real world and fantasizing about non-consensual activities within the space of erotic stories. This is a point that I think some people get confused about in this forum, but, IMO, if they are going to be consistent with the tolerant posture they take in this thread they should be clear about this.

I don't think there's anything "wrong" with people getting off on fantasies that involve non-consent. People fantasize about what they fantasize about, and I don't judge that any more than I judge people who like to submit to humiliation and degradation, the subject the OP brought up.

We've got some levels here: Fantasies that go on in your own head don't harm other people. However, your fantasies might cause you to treat other people differently. If your fantasy includes endorsing or enabling people who do it in real life, now we are getting iffy. Fantasies in print can be enjoyed without harming others, unless you neglect them for your fantasies. Teaching young people your fantasies are harmless if they're not when done in real life can have bad consequences. Recordings of real people acting out your fantasies can be harmless, or they can be damaging to the actors. Add your own.

 

[pink_silk_glove]

We've got some levels here: Fantasies that go on in your own head don't harm other people. However, your fantasies might cause you to treat other people differently. If your fantasy includes endorsing or enabling people who do it in real life, now we are getting iffy. Fantasies in print can be enjoyed without harming others, unless you neglect them for your fantasies. Teaching young people your fantasies are harmless if they're not when done in real life can have bad consequences. Recordings of real people acting out your fantasies can be harmless, or they can be damaging to the actors. Add your own.

And every time we get into our car, we might hit a pedestrian.

 

[lovecraft68]

And every time we get into our car, we might hit a pedestrian.

As Pink Floyd says every breath brings you closer to death.

 

[lovecraft68]

I've never seen some people's personal erotic fantasies dissected to this degree.

Imagine if we had this level of discussion over Burn the bitch stories that feature actual violence and harm being done to women-and their lovers at times as well-that is not erotic in any way and just promotes violence and hatred while being placed in an erotic story category and promoted as it having sexual gratification.

That's the authors, the readers are far worse demanding the story should have went further, posting their own views of how the bitch should have gotten hers. Go look at my post of a comment left on my story by 26thnc where he describes my characters being killed.

These aren't sexual fantasies, these are wishing violence on fictional people but in a very real unhinged manner. These people make non con stories look like feminist literature, and I don't recall a comment ever saying "should have raped her harder"

Call me crazy, but I find that far more concerning, but talk about that type and you get the same people racing in to defend them and try to say its erotic and acceptable.

But let's not worry about those people or call them out.

Nah let's just keep picking at people that have rough sex fantasies they try to enjoy but are judged harder than people calling for violence and murder.

Sounds about right.

 

[redgarters]

You do realize we are talking about a kink that ritualizes non-consent. "It's all okay because she agreed to act like she totally doesn't agree. And I'm getting off on pretending she didn't agree. And my true fantasy is if this was real." Does that pretty much get it? And maybe he can find a really good 'actor' because someone will provide him with an undocumented human-trafficked woman who has been shot up with heroin and doesn't get her next fix until she tells the john, "Sure, I'll do anything you want. Just don't mess up my face...much."

An undocumented human-trafficked woman who has been shot up with heroin and doesn't get her next fix until she tells the john, "Sure, I'll do anything you want. Just don't mess up my face...much" isn't capable of providing consent.
That is not consent. That's abuse/violence.

This is the point I was making. In BDSM, consent rules all. But then you have people, like in your example, who get off on/don't respect/don't care about real consent. Those people aren't practicing BDSM, they are practicing violence against other human beings.

It's an all-important difference, and one of the main problems I have with discussions like this one is that people automatically associate violence and abuse with BDSM because they don't understand this difference.

Edit: Just to be clear: I know that some people have dark fantasies that even border on the insane, and worse, act them out on other people as abuse and violence, thus (often horribly) moving their desires from the realm of fantasies into the real world. I'm just saying please don't associate that with consensual sexual practices that you may not personally understand. That's what irks me here.

 

[nice90sguy]

I am mystified by a whole genre of erotic stuff

There's your problem right there, limited imagination.

Literally 99% of the stories here do no nothing for me, but I'm certainly not mystified by them. I get how, and why they are a turn-on, for the writer at the very least.

Different stroke stories for different folks.

As to humiliation and ruin: It's far easier for me to write a story when the conflict is already set up from the get-go, when it's a battle (of wills in the case of my stories), and we see total victory and utter defeat.

Cruelty, and even abuse, ought to be in erotic stories -- it being so much a part of real life for so many people. They (we) deserve their catharsis, along with all the people who seek a release from their guilt, anxiety or frustration - the lonely, the unloved, the sexually unsatisfied, the secret homosexuals, those under the yoke of religious constraint, those seeking absolution for their sinful desires, those who yearn to escape their authoritarian superego...

And remember, you don't need a safe word when reading stories featuring abuse and humiliation. You can stop reading. So this is a classic case of "yeah, but in reality I'd never want..." Fiction is that which is counterfactual.

 

[Erozetta]

Mental disjunct here; though I can almost make the leap...

So, I've experienced this as both a fantasy(1) that was played out consensually and as an act(2) that was committed upon me without my consent or even my ability to consent.

There's an important distinction between the two types that make 1 okay and 2 not okay. In 1, I consented and the other person respected me enough to care that his use of me was not permanently harmful to me. He absolutely got off on being rough and having free rein over me, but he also wanted me to enjoy being used by him. He loved my willingness to be physically subservient to him.

My only rule with him was to not call me names because I didn't like that. Physical pain I can handle well, emotional/mental less so. Him insulting me, in particular, would have caused harm to me that he wouldn't have been capable of causing physically because my emotional stability was extremely low but my pain tolerance was extremely high. In part, because of my experience with 2 having happened first.

So, he was rough. He left physical damage on my body that healed over a few days and, importantly, after he was done with me, he provided me with caring connection and comfort because he understood the impact such a scene can have on a person and he gave a shit about me and wasn't a selfish asshole. He continued to check in with me regularly to ensure I was still okay days later. He wanted to use me violently, but he had no desire to be abusive towards me by ignoring the consent I gave him. And he got off, at least partially, on my enjoyment of him hurting me, which is a very important distinction in my experiences. The fact that I *trusted* him to not take things too far, even though I had no guarantee he wouldn't, mattered in my enjoyment of being with him.

In scenario 2, which I've experienced multiple times from different men and women in my life, my consent was neither required or wanted. Nor was I capable of providing such consent in most of these situations where I was harmed to various (often significant) degrees physically and intensely harmed emotionally. And I say harmed because in some of these instances I was left with permanent scarring, both emotionally and physically, from the encounter.

It wasn't about mutual enjoyment of causing or receiving physical pain, it was about someone's desire to take away another person's agency over their body. Harming me was the point and they didn't care if I enjoyed it or not. In fact, at least some of them enjoyed when I didn't because I would cry. I got very good at not crying regardless of what was done to me I er the years. Now, the funny part of this is that the mental harm they caused from insulting me and playing into my insecurities caused more lasting damage than anything physical they did to me. The split lip and cuts healed for the most part. Some damage caused permanent physical problems for me, but I could work around it. The insults and degradation at such vulnerable points in my life left me insecure and full of anxiety around everything I did. It encouraged eating disorders and my need to be "good" in order to avoid such treatment by others. It removed my ability to say no to people for a very long time, and saying no is something I *still* struggle with because of these experiences.

I had no sense of self during this point in my life because I only existed for the use of others and I genuinely believed that for a very long time. I believed my consent and wants or interests didn't matter. That is difficult to train out of a person and both #1 and my husband worked with me to mitigate some of that damage. It is a process that is still ongoing even though I've been out of such situation for well over 20 years at this point.

When you focus on a specific aspect of someone's kinks (physical pain in this case, causing or receiving) what you are doing is attempting to bring shame into the equation for those who enjoy it consensually by positioning it from the point of #2. But the enjoyment of giving and receiving pain is not always a #2 situation. It is often a #1 situation where consent and respect of that consent is a key part of the experience. I didn't understand or care about the difference myself for a long time. (Why would I when I was conditioned to #2 as normal? But because of my experiences with #1 and my husband, and from talking to other people with understanding of the difference, I learned and adjusted and grew with my desires to get to a healthier place with it.)

Pain can be a wonderful path to unlocking emotions people have difficulty releasing specifically because of their experiences with people like in #2, where that emotion of fear and doubt was used as a weapon of control against them and became *dangerous* to release. It's the same with degradation as some people genuinely enjoy the rush of being insulted and put down in the same way I enjoy pain. Much like I don't understand their enjoyment of being insulted, they often don't understand my enjoyment of pain. But we also both understand the judgment that can come from wanting something a large portion of the population doesn't understand and tries to shame us out of enjoying.

And type 3 is my husband. My husband has learned over the years of being with me that I internalize everything that is ever said to me and sometimes the only way to help me stop holding onto all of that hurt and harm and pressure I put on myself is to cause me some physical pain, which isn't something he enjoys, but he does it because the alternative is that I eventually get so full of doubt and insecurity and hurt that I will lash out at myself in various ways, some more harmful than others.

Or, worse, I'll shut down and be completely emotionless and exist doing the absolute bare minimum to function as a human being until I can release some of that inner turmoil somehow, which is generally through significant injury.

I don't force him to help me with it. In fact, I try very hard to keep him from knowing when I'm overwhelmed because I know it bothers him that, basically, blood letting is an emotional release for me in the sense that it helps me feel like I'm releasing all of the bad from within me, and when I get to that shut down stage, that level of release is the only thing that helps. And the more numb I am, the more I need to lose in order to feel again. So, if he intervenes before I get to that point, lesser physical damage can help me release that built up tension in a safer way. And the easiest lesser physical damage is rough sex that results in bruising at a minimum.

The main differences around those who enjoy giving pain, in my experience, are 1. A shared kink is enjoyed mutually with heightened pleasure for both parties and the risks are mitigated through additional action as needed/required. 2. A person is a rapist but doesn't like the social ramifications of being a rapist, so they pretend to be #1 for just as long as they need to in order to gain trust and establish a sense of control around their intended victim, who is generally younger (often significantly) than them and new to the scene and/or are pre-damaged by a rough home life. 3. Something one does to help someone they care about even though they don't really get anything out of it. It's not against their will, but they just derive no sexual pleasure from the act. The hitch here is this can sometimes backfire because, for me at least, my partner's enjoyment of giving me pain is part of the appeal. So, while it works to, you know, keep me from killing myself, it doesn't scratch that itch of getting sexual pleasure from being hurt by someone who enjoys causing physical pain.

Your description here is fully #2. It isn't kink, it is abuse and I've laid out some of the most basic differences, though it's all based on my personal experiences, so the experience of others may differ wildly and this isn't an attempt to invalidate their experiences.

Another thing I will add to this is I've gone through extensive therapy to understand the different experiences and to get to a place where I have other tools at my disposal. It's just that those tools don't feel as good to me. I get no enjoyment out of it. I simply use them because I give a shit about my husband and don't want him to feel obligated to help me in a way he doesn't enjoy helping me. (And there are times when he does enjoy being rough, it's just rare for him.)

I still use pain for personal relief at times. Those desires don't just go away because I don't engage in them as much anymore. They are just enjoyed in a more controlled way when by myself now. I don't get the same pleasure out of it because there's no exchange of trust and no real risk involved, but I'm also unwilling to cheat on my husband to get the experience I want, so it's my only option for this kind of relief.

 

[Bramblethorn]

You do realize we are talking about a kink that ritualizes non-consent.

Boxing "ritualises" punching people. Fencing "ritualises" stabbing people. Paintball "ritualises" shooting people.

And yet boxing is not assault, fencing is not murder, paintball is not murder.

"It's all okay because she agreed to act like she totally doesn't agree.

Yes. The "agreed" part (combined with appropriate care to avoid harm beyond what was agreed to) is exactly what makes it okay. This is not a difficult concept.

And I'm getting off on pretending she didn't agree. And my true fantasy is if this was real." Does that pretty much get it? And maybe he can find a really good 'actor' because someone will provide him with an undocumented human-trafficked woman who has been shot up with heroin and doesn't get her next fix until she tells the john, "Sure, I'll do anything you want. Just don't mess up my face...much."

If we're going to play this game, well... I just imagined a game of chess where one of the players is a child molester and the other is a serial killer. Therefore chess is evil, because of this scenario that I just invented.

Yes, people sometimes get coerced into kinky sex. They also get coerced into non-kinky sex. It's the coercion - the actual coercion, not the fantasy of it, not the kink - that makes it bad.

 

[redgarters]

So, I've experienced this as both a fantasy(1) that was played out consensually and as an act(2) that was committed upon me without my consent or even my ability to consent.

There's an important distinction between the two types that make 1 okay and 2 not okay. In 1, I consented and the other person respected me enough to care that his use of me was not permanently harmful to me. He absolutely got off on being rough and having free rein over me, but he also wanted me to enjoy being used by him. He loved my willingness to be physically subservient to him.

My only rule with him was to not call me names because I didn't like that. Physical pain I can handle well, emotional/mental less so. Him insulting me, in particular, would have caused harm to me that he wouldn't have been capable of causing physically because my emotional stability was extremely low but my pain tolerance was extremely high. In part, because of my experience with 2 having happened first.

So, he was rough. He left physical damage on my body that healed over a few days and, importantly, after he was done with me, he provided me with caring connection and comfort because he understood the impact such a scene can have on a person and he gave a shit about me and wasn't a selfish asshole. He continued to check in with me regularly to ensure I was still okay days later. He wanted to use me violently, but he had no desire to be abusive towards me by ignoring the consent I gave him. And he got off, at least partially, on my enjoyment of him hurting me, which is a very important distinction in my experiences. The fact that I *trusted* him to not take things too far, even though I had no guarantee he wouldn't, mattered in my enjoyment of being with him.

In scenario 2, which I've experienced multiple times from different men and women in my life, my consent was neither required or wanted. Nor was I capable of providing such consent in most of these situations where I was harmed to various (often significant) degrees physically and intensely harmed emotionally. And I say harmed because in some of these instances I was left with permanent scarring, both emotionally and physically, from the encounter.

It wasn't about mutual enjoyment of causing or receiving physical pain, it was about someone's desire to take away another person's agency over their body. Harming me was the point and they didn't care if I enjoyed it or not. In fact, at least some of them enjoyed when I didn't because I would cry. I got very good at not crying regardless of what was done to me I er the years. Now, the funny part of this is that the mental harm they caused from insulting me and playing into my insecurities caused more lasting damage than anything physical they did to me. The split lip and cuts healed for the most part. Some damage caused permanent physical problems for me, but I could work around it. The insults and degradation at such vulnerable points in my life left me insecure and full of anxiety around everything I did. It encouraged eating disorders and my need to be "good" in order to avoid such treatment by others. It removed my ability to say no to people for a very long time, and saying no is something I *still* struggle with because of these experiences.

I had no sense of self during this point in my life because I only existed for the use of others and I genuinely believed that for a very long time. I believed my consent and wants or interests didn't matter. That is difficult to train out of a person and both #1 and my husband worked with me to mitigate some of that damage. It is a process that is still ongoing even though I've been out of such situation for well over 20 years at this point.

When you focus on a specific aspect of someone's kinks (physical pain in this case, causing or receiving) what you are doing is attempting to bring shame into the equation for those who enjoy it consensually by positioning it from the point of #2. But the enjoyment of giving and receiving pain is not always a #2 situation. It is often a #1 situation where consent and respect of that consent is a key part of the experience. I didn't understand or care about the difference myself for a long time. (Why would I when I was conditioned to #2 as normal? But because of my experiences with #1 and my husband, and from talking to other people with understanding of the difference, I learned and adjusted and grew with my desires to get to a healthier place with it.)

Pain can be a wonderful path to unlocking emotions people have difficulty releasing specifically because of their experiences with people like in #2, where that emotion of fear and doubt was used as a weapon of control against them and became *dangerous* to release. It's the same with degradation as some people genuinely enjoy the rush of being insulted and put down in the same way I enjoy pain. Much like I don't understand their enjoyment of being insulted, they often don't understand my enjoyment of pain. But we also both understand the judgment that can come from wanting something a large portion of the population doesn't understand and tries to shame us out of enjoying.

And type 3 is my husband. My husband has learned over the years of being with me that I internalize everything that is ever said to me and sometimes the only way to help me stop holding onto all of that hurt and harm and pressure I put on myself is to cause me some physical pain, which isn't something he enjoys, but he does it because the alternative is that I eventually get so full of doubt and insecurity and hurt that I will lash out at myself in various ways, some more harmful than others.

Or, worse, I'll shut down and be completely emotionless and exist doing the absolute bare minimum to function as a human being until I can release some of that inner turmoil somehow, which is generally through significant injury.

I don't force him to help me with it. In fact, I try very hard to keep him from knowing when I'm overwhelmed because I know it bothers him that, basically, blood letting is an emotional release for me in the sense that it helps me feel like I'm releasing all of the bad from within me, and when I get to that shut down stage, that level of release is the only thing that helps. And the more numb I am, the more I need to lose in order to feel again. So, if he intervenes before I get to that point, lesser physical damage can help me release that built up tension in a safer way. And the easiest lesser physical damage is rough sex that results in bruising at a minimum.

The main differences around those who enjoy giving pain, in my experience, are 1. A shared kink is enjoyed mutually with heightened pleasure for both parties and the risks are mitigated through additional action as needed/required. 2. A person is a rapist but doesn't like the social ramifications of being a rapist, so they pretend to be #1 for just as long as they need to in order to gain trust and establish a sense of control around their intended victim, who is generally younger (often significantly) than them and new to the scene and/or are pre-damaged by a rough home life. 3. Something one does to help someone they care about even though they don't really get anything out of it. It's not against their will, but they just derive no sexual pleasure from the act. The hitch here is this can sometimes backfire because, for me at least, my partner's enjoyment of giving me pain is part of the appeal. So, while it works to, you know, keep me from killing myself, it doesn't scratch that itch of getting sexual pleasure from being hurt by someone who enjoys causing physical pain.

Your description here is fully #2. It isn't kink, it is abuse and I've laid out some of the most basic differences, though it's all based on my personal experiences, so the experience of others may differ wildly and this isn't an attempt to invalidate their experiences.

Another thing I will add to this is I've gone through extensive therapy to understand the different experiences and to get to a place where I have other tools at my disposal. It's just that those tools don't feel as good to me. I get no enjoyment out of it. I simply use them because I give a shit about my husband and don't want him to feel obligated to help me in a way he doesn't enjoy helping me. (And there are times when he does enjoy being rough, it's just rare for him.)

I still use pain for personal relief at times. Those desires don't just go away because I don't engage in them as much anymore. They are just enjoyed in a more controlled way when by myself now. I don't get the same pleasure out of it because there's no exchange of trust and no real risk involved, but I'm also unwilling to cheat on my husband to get the experience I want, so it's my only option for this kind of relief.

Thank you @Erozetta

 

[SimonDoom]

We've got some levels here: Fantasies that go on in your own head don't harm other people. However, your fantasies might cause you to treat other people differently. If your fantasy includes endorsing or enabling people who do it in real life, now we are getting iffy. Fantasies in print can be enjoyed without harming others, unless you neglect them for your fantasies. Teaching young people your fantasies are harmless if they're not when done in real life can have bad consequences. Recordings of real people acting out your fantasies can be harmless, or they can be damaging to the actors. Add your own.

The key word here is "might." We've had these discussions before here at Literotica, and they're unresolvable because none of us really knows whether and to what degree a fantasy story here at Literotica "might" adversely influence someone in the real world. We're speculating.

I suspect, but of course I don't know, that while there are situations where art with a "trangressive" message might plausibly influence people for the worse, the probability of a Literotica story doing so is low. The people who come here are, by and large, looking for some fun fantasy, and they know it's fantasy.

Artists have to decide for themselves whether the possibility, even remote, that someone might act badly in the real world in response to their art should temper the production of their art. I'm inclined to give artists a lot of leeway on this point. Others are less inclined.

 

[Britva415]

Do I understand you to mean that sucking nipples damages a person?

Of course.

https://forum.literotica.com/threads/when-do-you-bail-out-of-a-thread.1638255/

 

[LargoKitt]

Thank you @Erozetta

Erozetta, Wow, this is really an elegant description of why and how people find themselves 'needing' to receive or give pain along with their sexual experience. My OP statement was really about the humiliation piece and you deal well with that too. The women I know , and some are close family, very much echo your experience. Some women who have been sexually used as girls by domineering adults seem to find themselves needing a redux of the intensity of that experience. A sweet, caring lover may not 'get them there' the way someone who is too big and too rough and even too uncaring does. I've also been told that there is a psychological twist that if the original abusive sex made you feel dirty and worthless, but it also sometimes felt good and was exciting, then someone who treats you now like you are dirty and worthless is 'taking the responsibility' and you can 'enjoy feeling bad.' And of course this goes for guys, too who have been used. Some people need their 'gay side' punished. Some their 'pagan, sinful' selves. Dang, I have lovely cameo brooch of Jesus whipping himself. So, yeah, thanks. So well explained.

 

[LargoKitt]

It's the coercion - the actual coercion, not the fantasy of it, not the kink - that makes it bad.

Precisely. Where I'm going with this. You and a partner deciding to play at unequal. Fine. I worry about, let's say, a guy watching a video or reading a story about a woman (or a man) 'getting all their holes ruined' and beating off to it. Fun transgressive fantasy? Okay. Let's assume that guys who are really into humiliating and hurting people don't come here for lessons. Let's hope authors don't hurt people who don't want to be hurt in order to 'get fresh material.' Let's hope the video makers aren't scooping up vulnerable women to be their 'actors.' Because this and vid sites are 'markets.' Markets can encourage people to do edgy stuff not for harmless fun, but for money. Or fame. Or...hits.

 

[LargoKitt]

There's your problem right there, limited imagination.

Literally 99% of the stories here do no nothing for me, but I'm certainly not mystified by them. I get how, and why they are a turn-on, for the writer at the very least.

Different stroke stories for different folks.

As to humiliation and ruin: It's far easier for me to write a story when the conflict is already set up from the get-go, when it's a battle (of wills in the case of my stories), and we see total victory and utter defeat.

Cruelty, and even abuse, ought to be in erotic stories -- it being so much a part of real life for so many people. They (we) deserve their catharsis, along with all the people who seek a release from their guilt, anxiety or frustration - the lonely, the unloved, the sexually unsatisfied, the secret homosexuals, those under the yoke of religious constraint, those seeking absolution for their sinful desires, those who yearn to escape their authoritarian superego...

And remember, you don't need a safe word when reading stories featuring abuse and humiliation. You can stop reading. So this is a classic case of "yeah, but in reality I'd never want..." Fiction is that which is counterfactual.

I draw a line in real life that some folks don't. Playing football in school I was happy to win games and shake the hands of the other team. A close contest was more interesting than a rout. But some guys on my team would finish a winning game saying, "Did you see how we fucking humiliated those guys? We just turned them to quivering shit." And that kind of talk made me sick, mostly because pushing them down in the mud or seeing them as worthless didn't make me feel skilled or strong. Where was the contest in that? You want an equal partner to make you feel like your skills and moves were worth something. But I did learn a life lesson that goes more to your point. After the game I would hear fans talking, and a game I saw as mostly strategy they would be cheering about 'how we totally destroyed their quarterback on that blitz.' So, guys who didn't dare kiss a woman were dreaming of throwing her down in the hay and 'taking their way' with her.

 

[LargoKitt]

don't associate that with consensual sexual practices that you may not personally understand.

I'm not confusing 'kinks' with abuse, the people on this thread are. A story or a video where two people walk into the 'red room' hand in hand and say 'what kind of master slave game shall we play today' is one thing. But if the story/video just shows someone being 'owned' somehow and then degraded sexually, and nobody goes home to pay the babysitter; but rather someone is whimpering after having 'all their holes' ruined, and there's a serves you right energy to the protagonist, (which isn't revenge) and the viewer or reader is consuming this story while masturbating...kind of makes me sick., and kind of worried for giving people permission to treat women that way. Take the story and swap out an ethnicity for women. Replaces 'bitch' with your favorite racial slur.

 

[OddLove]

As someone with a borderline unhealthy interest in Femdom. I've had fantasies and enjoyed stories that I know I wouldn't necessarily enjoy or consent to IRL. Like a woman completely controlling my life and kicking me in the nuts when I accidentally annoy her... it makes my nether region tingle, but if it actually happened outside of isolated play sessions, I'd be running for the hills. So in the reverse, maledom, I can understand the appeal for those extremes. But I agree once it starts giving off the 'serves you right' energy, it doesn't feel sexy and fun anymore, it just seems abusive. And unfortunately I've come across some femdom stuff in the BDSM category that is like emotionally abusive hate-fueled cuckoldry. So it's even sprinkled around in that area. It's probably way more common the other way around.

 

[LargoKitt]

I've never seen some people's personal erotic fantasies dissected to this degree.

Imagine if we had this level of discussion over Burn the bitch stories that feature actual violence and harm being done to women-and their lovers at times as well-that is not erotic in any way and just promotes violence and hatred while being placed in an erotic story category and promoted as it having sexual gratification.

That's the authors, the readers are far worse demanding the story should have went further, posting their own views of how the bitch should have gotten hers. Go look at my post of a comment left on my story by 26thnc where he describes my characters being killed.

These aren't sexual fantasies, these are wishing violence on fictional people but in a very real unhinged manner. These people make non con stories look like feminist literature, and I don't recall a comment ever saying "should have raped her harder"

Call me crazy, but I find that far more concerning, but talk about that type and you get the same people racing in to defend them and try to say its erotic and acceptable.

But let's not worry about those people or call them out.

Nah let's just keep picking at people that have rough sex fantasies they try to enjoy but are judged harder than people calling for violence and murder.

Sounds about right.

'Murder porn' is a real thing these days. Lots of shows starting with some beautiful innocent female being murdered. And then we go to the morgue and have lots of shots of her mutilated body. And then there's a visit to the villain and the other victims he has captured or is stalking. And the variations on the themes of his depraved cruelty. And each new series seems to play 'can you top this' in terms of the gore. And, just to get the NRA up my ass, we make 'kiddie shows' with superheroes and villains blasting each other nonstop with amazing ammo. Yeah, yeah, kids will play. But sometimes I yearn for 'bang bang, yer dead', 'no I'm not' , 'yes you are.' as the worst of our shoot-em-ups.

 

[LargoKitt]

As someone with a borderline unhealthy interest in Femdom. I've had fantasies and enjoyed stories that I know I wouldn't necessarily enjoy or consent to IRL. Like a woman completely controlling my life and kicking me in the nuts when I accidentally annoy her... it makes my nether region tingle, but if it actually happened outside of isolated play sessions, I'd be running for the hills. So in the reverse, maledom, I can understand the appeal for those extremes. But I agree once it starts giving off the 'serves you right' energy, it doesn't feel sexy and fun anymore, it just seems abusive. And unfortunately I've come across some femdom stuff in the BDSM category that is like emotionally abusive hate-fueled cuckoldry. So it's even sprinkled around in that area. It's probably way more common the other way around.

"But I agree once it starts giving off the 'serves you right' energy, it doesn't feel sexy and fun anymore, it just seems abusive." I think you neatly summed up all my blather here. Guys hating on women turns me way off.

 

[pink_silk_glove]

I'm not confusing 'kinks' with abuse, the people on this thread are.

Which ones and how do you know that? Specifically.

 

[Britva415]

I'm not confusing 'kinks' with abuse, the people on this thread are. A story or a video where two people walk into the 'red room' hand in hand and say 'what kind of master slave game shall we play today' is one thing. But if the story/video just shows someone being 'owned' somehow and then degraded sexually, and nobody goes home to pay the babysitter; but rather someone is whimpering after having 'all their holes' ruined, and there's a serves you right energy to the protagonist, (which isn't revenge) and the viewer or reader is consuming this story while masturbating...kind of makes me sick., and kind of worried for giving people permission to treat women that way.

So basically you aren't OK with portrayals of fantasy kink where the negotiation happens offscreen instead of onscreen? (Works for text too, I don't intend this to be taken as limited to video.)

Because everything else you described is just the kink fantasy.