Police are people, too

[KoPilot]

That's exactly what I thought about your Twitter reposts.

I'm a skeptic, in certain situations, borne of personal experiences. I've seen honest, working class neighborhoods where I worked or grew up turned into run-down "redevelopment authority" slums, where neighbors stole from and abused neighbors and destroyed the homes that they were given. I've been attempted-mugged twice, once by a black girl and once by a black guy. I've witnessed two attempted pickpocketings by black or hispanic teen-ish boys. I've also seen the police go after someone simply because of proximity to a crime, and spoken out to the nearest officer, telling him he was cuffing the wrong guy and the proper target was dressed differently half a block away (and white).

I also went to a snotty college-prep private high school with several sons and daughters of prominent black families, several of whom were good friends. I'll admit I assess and judge people with whom I come into contact. When I know nothing else, I judge them by their presented behaviors. Act like a decent human being, that's how I call it until convinced otherwise. Act like a thug, that's what I'll conclude. That's regardless of skin color.

And I've been stopped, myself, for a wrong place/wrong time incident and had a gun pulled on me because I was naive and didn't realize that reaching into my glove box would scare them. I've had three cop-acquaintances. One was a screaming asshole (and black/Asian) and the other two were white and overall good guys. One of whom was killed on 9/11.

All of which is to say do not presume to sit in judgment over me simply because I disagree with your conclusions. We all have different experiences, different lives, different knowledge. A quip on Twitter doesn't validate a goddamn thing.

This post doesn't invalidate a godddamn thing.

 

[KoPilot]

Out of curiosity, what sort of evidence would you accept?

Related question: if police really are unjustly accused of brutality, why are they so often opposed to the presence of journalists and body-cams that would prove their innocence? It's almost like they don't want a reliable source of evidence on these incidents.

Another question no one hostile to my recent posts will answer:

What does one have to lose by believing someone's personal, "unverifiable" story about being harassed by police? Is it something as petty as fear of embarrassment for being wrong? Is it that, to do so, would mean throwing everything else they take for granted into question and that's just too much work and too scary? Or is it more simple, that they just can't bring themselves to believe yet another black person bitching about cops?

 

[Netzach]

Okay.... the six journalists that were arrested in Ferguson for no reason, are they the criminals or are they the thugs you talk about?

The worst kind!

 

[Netzach]

Another question no one hostile to my recent posts will answer:

What does one have to lose by believing someone's personal, "unverifiable" story about being harassed by police? Is it something as petty as fear of embarrassment for being wrong? Is it that, to do so, would mean throwing everything else they take for granted into question and that's just too much work and too scary? Or is it more simple, that they just can't bring themselves to believe yet another black person bitching about cops?

I think it's a question of how we are trained to recognize authority, and who we see when we think "us." A white guy in a suit reading an invalidated story is going to be voted more "factual and less emotional" than a woman or a person of color reading a true statement in the same suit. This vote will probably jump demographics. We're all getting the same script to read from. We're totally happy to correct our historical oversights when we're learning about comfortably dead and white Ada Lovelace or talented and dead Scott Joplin, but we're much less enthusiastic about the People's History when we have the People in our face with all their human inconsistencies, and we look for some Authority to verify and tell us what's important and valid to believe.

I like to think that once you've crossed into emotional territory where someone black isn't "your friend" but is OF you in some way, family, kin, emotionally weighted like you weight your own experience, the door of dumbassery will usually crack open more fully. It shouldn't take that. (And I've seen it fail to happen, which always amazes me.) But if you ask me "when did this change for you" I would say that is what changed it.

When someone looks like someone who means the moon and the stars to you, they become less externalize-able based on this fact, unless you do a whole bunch of extremely exhausting mental gymnastics to keep that from happening. If she wasn't exaggerating, maybe all these other people aren't exaggerating either. It's totally stupid, and I'm not proud to admit it took that much, but that's the single thing that I'd say mattered most in changing my POV.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

The odds of being killed with a knife, let's say a single stab wound (because the other responding officer would have definitely shot her dead in the time it took for her to try and stab again), are actually really slim unless your aim is impeccable.

In a situation like that, you could be holding anything that would conveniently be labelled a weapon, and therefore you, a deadly aggressor.

I'm painting a broad, fucked up picture here. If a police officer hasn't been hurt, then they don't have the right to kill. End of. Their life is not worth more than someone else's.

You have shit for brains, faggot. Cops cant read minds. Assault a cop and youre dead meat. Jump off a building and God don't spare your ass because you donated your used under pants to GAY WIDOWS AND ORPHANS BENEVOLENT CHARITY.

 

[KoPilot]

You have shit for brains, faggot. Cops cant read minds. Assault a cop and youre dead meat. Jump off a building and God don't spare your ass because you donated your used under pants to GAY WIDOWS AND ORPHANS BENEVOLENT CHARITY.

 

[KoPilot]

I think it's a question of how we are trained to recognize authority, and who we see when we think "us." A white guy in a suit reading an invalidated story is going to be voted more "factual and less emotional" than a woman or a person of color reading a true statement in the same suit. This vote will probably jump demographics. We're all getting the same script to read from. We're totally happy to correct our historical oversights when we're learning about comfortably dead and white Ada Lovelace or talented and dead Scott Joplin, but we're much less enthusiastic about the People's History when we have the People in our face with all their human inconsistencies, and we look for some Authority to verify and tell us what's important and valid to believe.

I like to think that once you've crossed into emotional territory where someone black isn't "your friend" but is OF you in some way, family, kin, emotionally weighted like you weight your own experience, the door of dumbassery will usually crack open more fully. It shouldn't take that. (And I've seen it fail to happen, which always amazes me.) But if you ask me "when did this change for you" I would say that is what changed it.

When someone looks like someone who means the moon and the stars to you, they become less externalize-able based on this fact, unless you do a whole bunch of extremely exhausting mental gymnastics to keep that from happening. If she wasn't exaggerating, maybe all these other people aren't exaggerating either. It's totally stupid, and I'm not proud to admit it took that much, but that's the single thing that I'd say mattered most in changing my POV.

Same.

The act of just fucking taking people at face value, especially minorities, is a pretty big "fuck you" to the establishment.

 

[Netzach]

Same.

The act of just fucking taking people at face value, especially minorities, is a pretty big "fuck you" to the establishment.

It doesn't have to be believing in a more naive or stupid way, either. Melanin doesn't disarm your bullshit detector magically, you'll be OK.

 

[KoPilot]

LaGrange, Georgia: A detective nearly hit two cars before crashing into a home. He was arrested for DUI

Disgraced NYPD cop sentenced to three years in prison for exporting weapons to Philippines with brother

Former South Carolina State Trooper who served Grand Strand faces federal indictment on drug conspiracy charges

Former FBI Special Agent Sentenced to 10 Years in Prison for Bribery And Obstruction Scheme

Former Falmouth police chief indicted on theft charges

Lawsuit Alleges Police Cover-Up In Fatal Shooting Of Sleeping 7-Year-Old Aiyana Stanley-Jones

 

[La damnee elle la licorne]

 

[La damnee elle la licorne]

 

[Netzach]

And when you do take minorities at face value or you are a minority and don't agree with the ' police and establishment is wrong' because you also take some of those people ( as people ) at face value?

The institution is weighted in their favor at every single turn, they don't "need" me or you or any one person to assume their lack of culpability - when civilians are dead and the institutions of democratic government are responsible, guess what- the burden of 'splaining is on THEM. Why is this so hard to get your head around?

Individuals can be presumed innocent till proven guilty - institutions should NEVER be. Cops are not just randoms acting like you or me - the rules are different and this cuts both ways, you are now part of an accountable institution and acting as its agent. I might believe that a cop was peeing his pants and in fear of his life and the gun turned out to be a cap gun, guess what. That's not an accident, it is a mistake. It is a negligence. It is a responsibility of the institution that put this guy there.

 

[La damnee elle la licorne]

 

[Netzach]

If the burden of explaining is on them and we are not allowed to discuss that position, what is the point of discussion here? Furthermore, why the presumption differing submission of point of view means difficulty in understanding the other one put forward? I choose to discuss things politely, and do not return to conversation when its not productive because it fails in its purpose to further ' getting minds around' getting hard to see perspectives, as people just get ratty and defensive. I am regretful if this means I cannot learn from or contribute ( within the boundries G and I have set) in such conversations.

If the least bit of conflict or discomfort = non productive conversation, I don't know what to tell you about anything.

Read the links KoPilot is posting, these are not whackaloon unreliable sources, if this doesn't look like a pattern or a problem for you, I can't discuss anything with you.

 

[La damnee elle la licorne]

 

[Keroin]

I know I'm never here anymore but I popped in and this discussion caught my eye.

I've lived in too many places and have seen too many people in too many different situations to believe that we should trust LE or any type of authority or that we can function well as a society without some kind of law and authority.

A utopian civilization where everyone self-regulates is a lovely dream but it is only a dream as long as that civilization is made up of humans. This has nothing to do with the people I surround myself with. I surround myself with humans of all walks of life, quite literally--the perks of living a nomadic existence.

Changes are needed, absolutely. But LE needs to exist in some form. Idiots abound.

Also, this is a VERY long article but well worth the read, IMO. You could just as easily substitute Left for Right, too. 45 years in, I'm seeing more and more wisdom in opening my mind to the complexities of issues.

http://www.mcgilldaily.com/2014/11/everything-problematic/

 

[La damnee elle la licorne]

 

[Netzach]

Ah, you see here we find common ground. The first part certainly, That institutions need to be held culpable. And I feel we are all part of that.

As well as trained professionals though these people still are people. Human error and frailty exists....as you say, a police officer can still be terrified. It might be a mistake to fire at a person armed with a cap gun but I disagree its always necessarily negligence. I can imagine very many potential mitigating circumstances.

And on the macro level none of those mitigating circumstances matter at all. Some of the insanely disproportionate number of black men incarcerated are there for totally valid reasons. That's beside the point when we're talking about a disparity.

 

[Netzach]

I know I'm never here anymore but I popped in and this discussion caught my eye.

I've lived in too many places and have seen too many people in too many different situations to believe that we should trust LE or any type of authority or that we can function well as a society without some kind of law and authority.

A utopian civilization where everyone self-regulates is a lovely dream but it is only a dream as long as that civilization is made up of humans. This has nothing to do with the people I surround myself with. I surround myself with humans of all walks of life, quite literally--the perks of living a nomadic existence.

Changes are needed, absolutely. But LE needs to exist in some form. Idiots abound.

Also, this is a VERY long article but well worth the read, IMO. You could just as easily substitute Left for Right, too. 45 years in, I'm seeing more and more wisdom in opening my mind to the complexities of issues.

http://www.mcgilldaily.com/2014/11/everything-problematic/

It lost me at whining about anti-intellectualism. Basically any time a working class (or other marginalized) person says "hey I live this stuff" among intellectually mobilized activists, nobody cares, theory is right, consult the book.

Intellectualism absolutely drives the agenda at every turn, maybe if you have to navigate the space between formal education and a family who isn't it all looks very different. That's what produces this "vapourware" not the fact that people might invest too much authority with a black lesbian because she's a black lesbian. Please.

It's the anti-intellectual impulse that allows me to more or less balance all this with deep breathing and walks. "I can't go on. I'll go on." FFS, I paint pictures of happy things! My worldview is not exactly sunshine and lollipops, but the world is a pretty bleak place. Doesn't mean I can't enjoy it paradoxically.

 

[La damnee elle la licorne]

 

[La damnee elle la licorne]

 

[Keroin]

It lost me at whining about anti-intellectualism. Basically any time a working class (or other marginalized) person says "hey I live this stuff" among intellectually mobilized activists, nobody cares, theory is right, consult the book.

Interesting. Not what I took away from the article at all. I saw someone who was so hyper-focused she stopped seeing a bigger picture and stopped listening to ideas that didn't align with her own.

My worldview is not exactly sunshine and lollipops, but the world is a pretty bleak place. Doesn't mean I can't enjoy it paradoxically.

I agree the world is a pretty bleak place. And I also think that it's not a bleak place. I've seen a fair chunk of it. Not enough.

 

[La damnee elle la licorne]

 

[Bramblethorn]

Another question no one hostile to my recent posts will answer:

What does one have to lose by believing someone's personal, "unverifiable" story about being harassed by police? Is it something as petty as fear of embarrassment for being wrong? Is it that, to do so, would mean throwing everything else they take for granted into question and that's just too much work and too scary? Or is it more simple, that they just can't bring themselves to believe yet another black person bitching about cops?

IMHO, part of the problem is that most people have VAST difficulty in understanding just how non-representative their direct experience is. We tend to think "oh I know hundreds of people, so if I listen to all of them, that must give a pretty good sample of society" and it's utterly wrong, because clustering effects mean our friends and workmates tend to be similar to ourselves, and the way we're perceived influences how other people behave towards us.

I've interacted with Australian and US police (...TSA, prison guards, etc etc) on several occasions and they've always been friendly and helpful to me, even the time when I asked a LAPD cop if he'd mind my suitcase at LAX for a few minutes so I could go pee. (context: date was 9-14-2001). But there's absolutely no reason why I would experience their bad side. I don't obviously fit any of the profiling categories; I'm perceived as white, cis, straight, employed, mentally healthy. So I have to go beyond personal experience to get the full picture, just like anybody else does, and people tend to be reluctant to do that. Even for those who do make the effort, it's HARD to figure out how to process other information sources.

LaGrange, Georgia: A detective nearly hit two cars before crashing into a home. He was arrested for DUI

Disgraced NYPD cop sentenced to three years in prison for exporting weapons to Philippines with brother

Former South Carolina State Trooper who served Grand Strand faces federal indictment on drug conspiracy charges

Former FBI Special Agent Sentenced to 10 Years in Prison for Bribery And Obstruction Scheme

Former Falmouth police chief indicted on theft charges

Lawsuit Alleges Police Cover-Up In Fatal Shooting Of Sleeping 7-Year-Old Aiyana Stanley-Jones

And on the judicial side, let's not forget these evil fuckers who sold thousands of kids to for-profit juvenile detention outfits in exchange for kickbacks. I'm opposed to the death penalty but I'd be willing to make an exception for Ciavarella and Conahan.

 

[KoPilot]

Changes are needed, absolutely. But LE needs to exist in some form. Idiots abound.

LE =/= police.

This is what people can't get through their heads.