Preferred Forms of Punishment

[zipman]

Why do insecure haters always assume that becasue a person is new to a forum and they've lost track of a thread that they're somehow running scared from the posse out to get them. Because they're IDIOTS and COWARDS that's why...and they're always willing to take potshots at you in a thread that you seem not to be monitoring, lolol!

I cosider reading this close-minded individual's haughty ravings about someone she doesn't even know to be giving HER too much creedence, far too much.

PLONKETY PLONK little morninghater

Gee UCE, I was feeling special until you started raving and ranting at everyone.

I do find your choice of words interesting though - calling peoplel idiots and cowards. You (idiot) are the one who posted your unfounded opinions and you (coward) are the one who still hasn't backed them up. Desdemona asked you to do the same thing in a very nice way. Are you going to reply to her. Or will she not understand your "level of submissiveness" either?

And that MsWorthy, what a trouble maker All she does is post intelligently and articulately here at the forum.

It's obvious that anyone that disagrees with you or questions yoiu when you post your "theories" is closeminded and an idiot. If you want to understand the real problem here, perhaps a mirror might help you. Just a thought.

 

[Red Menace]

Um... may I say something here?

UCE - I love reading your posts as I find them articulate, often insightful and always informative. (Whether or not I agree with them.) However, I think you undermine yourself when you lash out at people who disagree with you and accuse them of flames. I see nothing inflamatory about MsWorthy's post, merely a difference of opinion in as straightforward a mannor as you posted yours. Attacking other forum members will not earn you any respect or make your posts any more valid.

That said... to address the whole withdrawal of communication as a form of punishment, I think it is highly contingent upon the people involved. I can see where this would trigger abandonment issues in some people and might not be an ideal solution. (And let me just address Art and Dream here specifically - as you've chosen to conduct a large portion of your relationship online and thus invited us in to your situation, I feel fairly comfortable publically commenting on it. Art, I can just imagine how frustrating it must be to have Dream go off on an incoherent tagent when she's upset and not be able to rationally communicate with her. However, she's stated several times that this feels like abandonment and it does nothing to boost her already fragile ego. I think the question you should ask youself is, are your methods of discipline only a temporary stopgap for that particular situation or have you seen actual progress in her towards being able to cope with other difficult situations? I wonder if it might be beneficial to explore other means of "punishment" such as writing an essay describing her emotions, or pinpointing problems, identifying feelings and their root causes and then offering suggestions for actions to alleviate the negative feelings. I know that's completely unsolicited advice and for that, I apologize. Please take it in the spirit of friendship and support in which it was meant.)

With Sir, punishment might mean time off from each other after talking about why He was disappointed and asking me why I felt the need to resist His authority. Like PBW suggested, this would reinforce my feelings of value towards our time together and would make me think twice before jeapordizing it again. Fortunately, this hasn't come up between us yet. Minor punishments might not include time off but just a lack of play time. This has happened and it killed me inside knowing that what I did not only disappointed Him but cost me in terms of fun and intimacy. To my relief, He has told me He does not believe in corporeal punishment as that might cause associations between negative feelings of being bad and the instriment of punishment. For example, by using a cane to physically punish me, it may make it harder for me to come to enjoy it when He wishes to incorporate it into a scene for our pleasure because in the back of my mind I'm remembering how awful it felt when He punished me with it.

And finally - to Playdoe - It is indeed very real punishment and yes, I suppose I could walk away from it, but that would also entail walking away from the entire relationship. Sir has no desire to play games with someone who is not serious about living in a 24/7 TPE and I have no desire to disappoint Him in that.

 

[MasterKensbeany]

Unda said

I'm talking about real things that apparently you do not have experience with, but which nevertheless exist for many people. If the post doesn't fit you, why not move on? Why apply it to yourself and get smoke out of your ears? The posts will be read and understood by the people to whom they were inplictly addressed to: those in similar situations and with similar relationship. You need not worry about it, even to the point of getting upset.

Unda

Your post was taken personally because it encompassed all sub/slaves. I posted about your use of such broad strokes in the Disappointment thread so I won't go further into it here.

Respectfully
beany

 

[UCE]

And I addressed the issue of genreralizations in my post to you in that very same thread, so I won't go into them here.

 

[UCE]

Re: Um... may I say something here?

UCE - I love reading your posts as I find them articulate, often insightful and always informative. (Whether or not I agree with them.) However, I think you undermine yourself when you lash out at people who disagree with you and accuse them of flames. I see nothing inflamatory about MsWorthy's post, merely a difference of opinion in as straightforward a mannor as you posted yours. Attacking other forum members will not earn you any respect or make your posts any more valid.

I keep saying this but let me say it once more: it's easy not to see insults when they aren't addressed to you. I'll tell you what Red, if you're interested I could pull out some direct qoutes of MsWorthy to me and show you just where all the horrific rudeness was. I would want you to imagine these words spoken to you, however, about one of your messages. Interested? If not, I'll be glad to drop it, no big deal, but my opinion about her rudely attacking style will not be changed. I know what I saw there and I think I could show them to somebody else.

Would like to address the rest of your interesting message later...again when there is more time.

Unda

 

[Ebonyfire]

Re: Um... may I say something here?

I think the question you should ask youself is, are your methods of discipline only a temporary stopgap for that particular situation or have you seen actual progress in her towards being able to cope with other difficult situations?

Red Menace - I know your statement was directed at Artful & Dream, but I believe it can be used by others.

In my own situation, as a dominant with male subs, I try to incorporate that thought into my initial interview process. I have a proactive approach to discipline. After spending lots of time comminunicating with potential subs, I find that an analysis of my methods is essential to choosing the right submissive(s) for Me.

In short, I do not choose subs who cannot be disciplined in the manner I deem fit.

Great post, BTW.

Ebony

 

[Red Menace]

UCE - I am not interested in rereading the parts of MsWorthy's post you find offensive or how they might be directed towards me. I've already read it and have made my own conclusions. I'm just sorry you feel the need to be so defensive when others disagree with you or object to the strident way in which you voice your opinions and observations.

Eb - (may I call you that?) Thank you. Your subs are fortunate to have such an intelligent Misstress. Discipline and punishment can be such a touchy subject in a D/s relationship and is not always easily dealt with. I agree that question should be one every Master/Misstress reflects upon.

 

[RisiaSkye]

Time to tone down the personal insults, folks. While this isn't directed solely at UCE, those posts do raise a good point of example--words like "idiot" and "coward" aren't conducive to adult conversation. More to the point, they're flame material, and flame-baiting as well.

Chill out. Post rationally, and as adults--with a shred of civility, if you would.

Thank you,
RisiaSkye
Forum Moderator

 

[DarkMoon]

Wow...

I forgot the question.

DarkMoon~

 

[Pure]

Caspai said,

The point here is that a submissive is NOT a child, so cutting off communication is counter-productive. It is dishonest. It is harmful. ESPECIALLY if a person has anxiety issues or health problems that can be made worse BY STRESS.//

I'm somewhat in the position of PBW, here. Putting a relation on hold temporarily may be, imo, an appropriate mild punishment. 'Time out' is often claimed to be progressive and enlightened for kids, but it does, imo, have punitive undertones.

Cutting off communication for a period or even ending a relationship are surely the 'ultimate' forms of punishment, and I suggest that even Caspai, with adults, has probably done this.

As to its 'harm'. Well, a punishment has to do something unwanted and unpleasant, doesn't it? And since, as C points out, the 'sub' is an adult, then IF their behavior was bad, they may just have to deal with a bit of anxiety, no?

That said, it's suggested by a number of behavioral investigators, that the role of punishment, if one wants to shape behavior, is severely limited. In most cases it doesn't really work, by which I mean that the tendency to the act remains. What works is rewards, as anyone who trains animals knows. (Hey, we are animals, aren't we?).

 

[Ebonyfire]

That said, it's suggested by a number of behavioral investigators, that the role of punishment, if one wants to shape behavior, is severely limited. In most cases it doesn't really work, by which I mean that the tendency to the act remains. What works is rewards, as anyone who trains animals knows. (Hey, we are animals, aren't we?).

I believe that (ymmv). Which is one of the reasons (I am oversimplifying) I do not use punishment very often, if at all. And when I do, it is almost alway NOT corporal punishment.

I prefer to look for the root cause of the disobedience. If it is intentional, I would dismiss (something I have not had to do) the sub.

I want correction not revenge, so I analyze the situation to find out if my sub's failure is my fault. Were my directions misleading and/or inadequate? did he misunderstand me, and if so, why didn't he ask for clarification? I find that to help me correct and prevent misunderstandings.

Eb

 

[UCE]

UCE - I am not interested in rereading the parts of MsWorthy's post you find offensive or how they might be directed towards me. I've already read it and have made my own conclusions. I'm just sorry you feel the need to be so defensive when others disagree with you or object to the strident way in which you voice your opinions and observations.

I'm sorry to hear that, Red. It means to me that you don't want to know what it's like to walk in my shoes. You may have made up your own mind already, but trust me, it feels very very different if words that don't seem harsh from the outside are directed at you. And I could have, I believe, shown you this.

 

[WillowPuss]

I am so confused here.

Please UCE, could you clarify somehing for me. You stated a few pages back that (and I am paraphrasing here - so forgive me if I have it slightly wrong) the majority of female submissives have an emotional age of 12 tops, many at the 3-6 year old stage.

Then, a couple of posts further on you say that all your posts are talking about slaves in a 24/7 TPE relationship.

So it it these slaves/submissives that have the low emotional age? Or do you mean those slaves/submissives not in a 24/7 TPE?

 

[Pure]

punishment, consequences, and going down the road

UCE made some very eloquent points, partly quoted below, in favor of maintaining emotional contact during any 'punishment'.
They esp. apply in the punishment of children, where the issue is damage to the relationship, in relation to any possible gains.
Indeed, the same points are made in dog-training books: to punish the dog when you get home and he's torn up your favorite book---perhaps hours before-- is not going to be understood and merely damages the relationship.

With humans one can--and should-- explain the reason for any consequence, and also put a mature time limit on it. I agree with UCE that the dom/me who prolongs anger, retaliation, or 'silent treatment' may be doing it out of childishness or mis-begotten pride.

That said, I'd ask UCE, however, "Can a sub ever 'opt out'? either expressly or by implication?" I mean, call the relation into question and even move toward ending it? This whole discussion reminds me of the the old wisdom of, Keep in emotional contact with your children; no matter what they do, 'be there.' Surely a piece of generally good advice.

Again, though, is there no limit? As when your 17 yr old has pawned your TV and pillaged your bank account, including the rent for the apt. in which you both stay? May it not be argued that that 'kid' is an adult, or should be treated as one? (Make your own scenario, if the above is not dire enough.)

Would not the same thing apply to a sub? If the sub pushes 'disobedience' far enough, she is to be taken as an adult, despite her inferred 'emotional age'. The adult consequences of certain moves, is, after due attempts to 'sort things out,' a breaking off. Indeed, following UCE's line of thought, what IS best for the sub, here:

To continually and eternally be 'forgiven' and talked to and 'contracted with' despite all behavior to the contrary? or to face the normal consequences? Surely the former route may lead to cultivating manipulativeness (like the alcoholic who always has a tearful plea for 'another chance'--and succeeds) while the latter route, including --at the extreme-- cutting off, has a chance of 'reaching' the person and maybe, just maybe, encouraging a beneficial (to them) change of behavior.

To return to the original point; if there is nothing for the sub to do to 'move out' of the relationship, s/he is essentially denied a freedom. When the words or the behavior say "I want to go," surely there is a point at which the dom, lacking the eternal patience of a god, must say, "Yes, it's best to part ways."

==========


UCE:
I agree that cutting off communication is very cruel. It's also utterly anti-productive to the building of more and better control over your submissive, for two reasons:

1. Emotional punishment of that nature will activate the abandoment fantasies and fears that a great many submissives have and cause the sub to trust her dominant less--he cannot be relied upon emotionally. The message you are sending a submissive is that you will not always be there for her. Trust is essential to control. If the submissive can't trust you, you don't have a chance in hell of getting her to obey you in the really important things: she'll follow her own head, which she trusts more than someone so idiotic that he intentionally hurts her in such a brutal emotional fashion. At least that's what the half-sane among us do. The really self-destructive subs, the women who are so pathological they should be in institutions, will looooovvvve that kind of treatment. IMO, the dom who dishes out that kind of stupid punishment absolutely and without any qualifications deserves the kind of really emotioanlly sick subs attracted to it.

2. Does it ever occur to any dominant who cuts off communication with his submissive to punish her that lack of communication = lack of knowledge about the sub = lack of ability to control her? This is so true it should be a law of physics. The dominant who cuts off communication with a submissive completely loses the ability to control anything that submissive does during the time he is cut off and probably for a significant time afterward due to the loss of trust spoken of above. Cutting off communication to "punish" a wayward submissive is equivelent in grand stupidity to shooting yourself in the foot because your toenail is too long.


===
[in a later post]

silence says far far more than words already, but it NEVER, Never, says what you want it to say. You see, we submissives, at least the female versions have this nasty little tendency to see everything as our fault anyway and when a dominant is displeased with us and shows that with silence, our active little imaginations go to work and we picture you, our master or mistress, thinking the most horrible things about our unworthy selves. We drive ourselves to distraction with the terrible imaginings of how you must hate us and all the wild and completely untrue things your silence signifies (including of course the two other lovers which we just KNOW you're keeping in the wings ready for the time when you tire of us).

So you resume communications with us eventually, and we have been through a fucking mental HELL and while we might on the surface appear grateful to you for "gracing" us with your lordly or ladylie presence again, inside we're deeply hurt, confused, certain that all the terrible things we imagined you thinking about us are true, that you did think those things, wondering why you don't "fix" our bad feelings by telling us what you actually think, and in general more fucked up than before the imposed silence.

You have to take into account a submissive's wild negative and self-critical imagination if you're going to go silent on them. That imagine will fill your "silence" with the most eloquent and convincing monsters, monster that, if they are allowed to continue to build and go unchecked, will eventually detroy the relationship beyond recognition. This could almost be written as another law of physics about submissive women: If a submissive does not know what you think of her, she will make something up and nine times out of ten what she thinks will be extremely exaggerated and unpleasant.

 

[catalina_francisco]

Bump....Interesting, if at times heated discussion....perhpas some would like to contribute their thoughts and experiences.

Catalina

 

[SubmissiveDove5]

caspai

Does this mean that my Master is emotionally abusing me? He didn't contact me for five weeks when finally I contacted him. He didn't express any anger or disappointment, he said everything was fine, but then the next day he said I needed to find a new master. All I did was express to him why I was feeling insecure, which is what I had been told to do. He told me I could tell him anything. Is he punishing me?

Keep in mind that it is a ldr, very ld and he has no computer or long distance phone plan at the moment, and sending me a letter would be silly because I am blind.

 

[soapstar]

Re: caspai

Does this mean that my Master is emotionally abusing me? He didn't contact me for five weeks when finally I contacted him. He didn't express any anger or disappointment, he said everything was fine, but then the next day he said I needed to find a new master. All I did was express to him why I was feeling insecure, which is what I had been told to do. He told me I could tell him anything. Is he punishing me?

Keep in mind that it is a ldr, very ld and he has no computer or long distance phone plan at the moment, and sending me a letter would be silly because I am blind.

Um. What can I say???

 

[Netzach]

I don't do anything to punish my subs. I've never had to vindicate, only correct.

I register my displeasure, and expect there to be changes.

If there aren't any changes or attempts at changes, then there's the door.

All the people I've had the distinct pleasure of working with in the capacity of being served, male and female, are adults who want to serve me and spend time with me, and even want to impress me. Their desires are secondary to my desires, their needs are not going to determine the direction of the relationship at every given turn.

If I wanted a 10 year old I'd simply get pregnant. Jesus.

Maybe TPE is predicated on dependence over service, but my D/s relationships have service as the cornerstone. Control furthers service, it's about being useful to me, not helpless without me.

There's nothing infantile or bait and switch about that. I'm very clear with prospectives that I'm not there to make them into submissives, they need to decide that they are before they play that card. I don't exist to be in slavery to someone else's dysfunctional existence, maybe that's cool for some people, but not me.

 

[AngelicAssassin]

I don't do anything to punish my subs ...

I register my displeasure, and expect there to be changes.

... they need to decide that they are before they play that card. I don't exist to be in slavery to someone else's dysfunctional existence, maybe that's cool for some people, but not me.

Thank you darlin' ... very well said.

 

[Elizabeth]

Watching NASCAR while restrained in a Lazyboy. Pure hell.
Having to drive his work truck that doesn't have a working radio.
Having to pick up the dog shit in the yard in the summer.

Yes..I really try to be good.

 

[catalina_francisco]

Hmmmm, we are watching an interesting documentary of sorts on TV. Male slave didn't turn up for coffee with his Master at the appointed time so was kidnapped unsuspectingly from the street and taken by car to another location where he was stripped naked and tied to a medical type (though modified for the purpose) operating table as punishement. Was told he would be there for 24 hours at least and what to expect due to the confinement...at 12 hours he couldn't handle the pain anymore so was given a massage to help him endure...other parts of the treatement have been being bottle fed like a baby....interested to see where this goes. ...oooooh, Shadowsdream should be watching this....they have just gone for a drive to collect stinging nettle and returned to torture him with it while he remains tied down.

Catalina

 

[Netzach]

Ok, I can also add that I'm bitter and I wish I had enough time in my not horribly hectic life to make coffee the priority it obviously ought to be!