Preferred Forms of Punishment

[Soron]

Re: Soron, You made a good point..

"A focused slave will do all she can not to disappoint her Master" I totally agree with that.. as for the "spanking idea, in my case that would NEVER work as I LOVE being spanked too much

well, a spanking for discipline would involve a paddle and limits being pushed. Spanking for pleasure, I always use my hand. Then, I can feel that warm bottom and smile.

 

[~Dream~]

Quint...

I dislike, in my own relationship, cutting off communication to "teach me a lesson." I don't think I ever get to the level of irrationality that such a display of contempt--yes, from my own mouth!--would be warranted and/or helpful in any way. Avoiding the problem does not solve it. As far back as I can remember, I've made a habit out of never going to bed angry. Talking can fix problems. Silence can compound them.

This is especially true in my LDR. Your mileage, blah blah blah. I personally find it a short-term, possibly counterproductive, perhaps even cowardly approach to a problem. But that is because I can't see myself ever doing anything that would make T see this as a viable option.

Summary: I just put too much store in myself as a rational person to accept punishment this irrational.

________________________
I feel that it really bothers you as it does me to have communication cut off also ... I do understand and while I did not think it to be a "cowardly act , I do agree with you that it was irrational ,to me anyways.. and I dont feel you are being judgemental at all ,its just your honest opinion and you ARE entitled to it hun..

 

[Goddess Helena]

Dom/me's... How do you like to punish your sub/slave?
What if s/he really disappointed you?

Spanking, Cumming-Control, Silencing,...??

When my boy fails me or disappoints me, we do something that I know he does not like. Panties and eyeliner work wonders with my boy. If he really disappoints me, I bring out the glitter body lotion.
Works everytime.


Helena

 

[Andreina]

Re: Re: Preferred Forms of Punishment

When my boy fails me or disappoints me, we do something that I know he does not like. Panties and eyeliner work wonders with my boy. If he really disappoints me, I bring out the glitter body lotion.
Works everytime.


Helena

Garry Glitter in persona, eh?

 

[mjnelson]

Cum denial! My hot-tempered Mexican girlfriend will tie my hands behind me while I'm completely naked, then she'll do a very erotic dance in front of me which gets me very aroused and begging for more action. But then, she'll go to bed and lock the door leaving me bound and unsatisfied.

 

[UCE]

Re: Opinion

LDR's leave few choices for discipline other than an absence of communication. Verbal cruelty is an OPTION,...but not one I care to engage in.

I agree that cutting off communication is very cruel. It's also utterly anti-productive to the building of more and better control over your submissive, for two reasons:

1. Emotional punishment of that nature will activate the abandoment fantasies and fears that a great many submissives have and cause the sub to trust her dominant less--he cannot be relied upon emotionally. The message you are sending a submissive is that you will not always be there for her. Trust is essential to control. If the submissive can't trust you, you don't have a chance in hell of getting her to obey you in the really important things: she'll follow her own head, which she trusts more than someone so idiotic that he intentionally hurts her in such a brutal emotional fashion. At least that's what the half-sane among us do. The really self-destructive subs, the women who are so pathological they should be in institutions, will looooovvvve that kind of treatment. IMO, the dom who dishes out that kind of stupid punishment absolutely and without any qualifications deserves the kind of really emotioanlly sick subs attracted to it.

2. Does it ever occur to any dominant who cuts off communication with his submissive to punish her that lack of communication = lack of knowledge about the sub = lack of ability to control her? This is so true it should be a law of physics. The dominant who cuts off communication with a submissive completely loses the ability to control anything that submissive does during the time he is cut off and probably for a significant time afterward due to the loss of trust spoken of above. Cutting off communication to "punish" a wayward submissive is equivelent in grand stupidity to shooting yourself in the foot because your toenail is too long.

What is the D&S equivelent of sensibly clipping the toenail? Ah, people who are actually dominants and not playing at it for ego reasons or to get tail know the answer to that question, and a submissive will know that she is with such a person when the punishment, even if only physical, does not hurt her emotionally or damage the relationship or her feelings for her dominant in any significant fashion. In fact, she will respect this person more (in the way that you respect people in ordinary life--for their achievements or wisdom, not in the fake way some subs sometimes "respect" anyone who makes them wet by giving them an order) and feel closer to her dominant, not hurt or distant.

If you're new to bdsm and submissive, you need to realize that a person who intends to control your life completely has, absolutely has, to assume certain responsibilities toward you or else obtaining that control for real is impossible. One of those responsibilities is for your emotional welfare and safety. And anyone who petulantly refuses you access or communication to them in order to punish you is not only taking great risks with the emotional safety that you can feel with them but is actually just another self-indulgent child pretending to be a big grownup. The dominant who does this is doing something that's easy for him, that he's heard of other people doing but never thought through clearly to see if it actually made any sense. This kind of thoughtlessness and desire for one's personal ease above everything else are the motivations and actions of a child, not an adult. Only an emotionally mature adult can assume responsibilities of dominance. The pity of the bdsm world seems to be that the idea of free and easy sex and ordering people around attracts individuals who are big babies inside and therefore always love to take the easy way out while giving lip service to the lie that they are "suffering greatly" for their submissives by putting up with them.

Being a dominant seems on the surface to be such a fun and easy thing: you just order your slave to do something and she doesn't. And if she doesn't do it, by golly, you simply punish her with whatever random cruelty first comes to your mind. And if the punishment doesn't seem to have the required effect, it's of course because she isn't "submissive enough" to "serve" you properly and you go on and ruin the life of the next girl in line. Since there is almost an unending supply of submissives out there who are ignorant of the fact that an actual dominant will give something back to them (emotional safety) that is very significant, such "little boy/little girl domianants" can pretty much play around and fuck up as many people's lives as they want to and always blame their failures on somoeone else--the "unsubmissive" sub. (Blaming your failures on anyone and anything besides yourself is another indication of emotional immaturity, by the way--and virtually no one pretending to be a dominant can resist doing it.)

Where do I get all the above information? Over the last couple of decades I have listened to literally hundreds of submissives complain precisely about these qualities of childishness in their dominants, without having a clue that what they were dealing with was a spoiled little boy because they'd been brainwashed into thinking that they had to respect this person and never question him. I'm just repeating the essense of what I've heard. So many submissives encounter this type of behavior that it should be a well-laughed-at cliche by now. The fact that it _isn't_ indicates how good a job the bdsm subculture does at perpetuating those myths we all like to believe of dominant omnipotence (so if anything goes wrong in a relationship, it's got to be the submissive's fault) and the idea that just because one enjoys kinky sex, a person automatically has the rare ability and tremendous skill to sucessfully control another person's life. This ridiculous myth, that "if you are drawn to something, you are capable of doing it" only applies in non-precise and relatively unexplored fields like sexuality. If you were to claim that because you "liked looking at the pretty stars and moon at night" (the equivelent of having a liking for kinky sex) that you were therefore fully capable of building and navigating rockets to the moon (the equivelent of being a genuine dominant), people would laugh at your hilariously and maybe even lock you up...if you were an adult, that is, becuase this is precisely the kind of statement or belief that a foolish little child might make.

OK, I've beaten my point to a pulp. Just hope it helps save someone from a little future grief and from re-inventing the bdsm dysfuctional-relationship wheel, as hundreds of other submissives have before you. Utterly gratuitious sex picture to follow:

Unda

 

[UCE]

Wrong Quote!

Argh! This was the person and quote I meant to reply to, just got my message reply buttons mixed up. Not that Artful's wasn't appropriate:

"Completely cutting off communication is not a punishment, it is a form of emotional abuse, and to do so is the height of cruelty."

 

[UCE]

Originally posted by Never
So, if my girlfriend begins to act in a way we both know is inappropriate and I decide I’m simply not going to communicate with her until she adjusts, I’m ‘emotionally abusing’ her?
I would consider that treating her like an adult.

This is probably the topic for an entirely new thread, but what in the world gave you the idea that submissives are adults or can ever be treated as such? My research, which has been extensive, informs me that every strong submissive (ie a submissive who feels their sexual orientation and desire to obey strongly) is _emotionally_ (not physically and not psychologically) a child. Emotional age varies from infancy up until about the age of 11 or 12 and most submissives (women at least, my remarks do not extend to men whom I have not studied to any extent) have an age range of three to six years iwhich they move forward and backward in, depending on what's going on in their internal lives. More submissives become arrested at the lower ages than at the upper ages of childhood.

I know that this ground-breaking and little-known idea is going to be percieved as controversial by many people, but that, I believe, is simply because it is new and because it runs counter to the overall bdsm cultural mythology which is very supportive (in quite the self-serving way) of that horrible destructive creature which makes its home and hunting grounds the bdsm social world, the Selfish-Child-Playing-At-Dominance.

The reasons for the emotional arrestment of submissives in childhood are utterly fascinating but I'll discuss them at a later date. Believe me now, however, that those reasons do indeed exist, they are verified by numerous observations, and that they have absolutely _nothing_, not. a. fucking. thing., to do with childhood abuse.

UCE

 

[SexyChele]

What an interesting topic of conversation! I don't know what I can contribute to this, except to say that the only form of "punishment" that would work is simply.....words. To know that I've caused disappointment and to be told exactly why I've disappointed will give me pause to consider what I've done, why it wasn't the best course of action, and how to not repeat it.

Cutting off communication, in any form - whether with prior warning or not - simply does not work for me. I consider that to be a "break" in the relationship and that I am free to do whatever I please. As I've stated before, when this was done to me in the past, it gave me the power and control. Yes, my Dominant would "disappear". (This was skin to skin, btw) I knew he would "be gone" for about 2 to 3 days, or less. And when he was ready to come back to the relationship, I would not be found. A few times I left the state or country without telling him where I was or when I would be back. Final point? His behavior was childish, therefore he was no longer deserving of my respect or trust. We would talk, but on my terms, when I was ready to come back to the relationship. (And, no, I'm not saying this is how it should be, it is simply how I react.)

I do agree that people sometimes need a "time out" when they are in the midst of a heated argument. If I engage in an argument where my temper is getting the best of me, I simply walk away until I can calm down and come back to discuss issues. But I always tell the other person that I'm upset and need a "cooling off" period, and promise to return to talk. Simply cutting off communication to me doesn't get the point across. While a Dominant might be thinking I'm at home, worrying and anxious over not hearing from him, I'm probably out at the local club with my girlfriends dancing up a storm and trading phone numbers. (Of course, when I once again take his calls, I will be contrite and feed his ego - all the while laughing at him. So, I guess it is safe to say that is a relationship headed for doomsville - as proven in the past.)

 

[UCE]

caspai,
If ‘we’ end up yelling then ‘we’ have both lost control of ourselves. How could a sub trust a dom to be in control if that dom can’t control themselves first?

If you’re at the point that you can’t communicate without shouting then you’ve already stopped communicating.

The above was said in reference to calling a time out, or stopping communication with the submissive. I had something long to say about this but I lost it when the picture I tried to attach at the end was too big. So you get the short version:

The above quote is very true if you're talking about a relationship of equal power. In a power-exchange, where one person is more or less dependant on another, the situation is different and these words no longer apply. The point at which a dominant loses control of himself is the point at which s/he feels the anger inside. Running away from expressing the anger is just a limited and very poor choice made _in reaction_ to an emotion that has got you under its sway. Yes, I recommend staying there and fighting it out/working it out with the submissive even if it means you do lose your temper (although there are many ways to control anger so that you don't even feel it to begin with and anybody who intends to take near absoulte control over another person's life needs to learn these first) upon occasion. Whether you run away from the encounter by calling a time out or stay there and deal with all the nasty unpleasantness, your submissive is going to know you are angry at her. So why not show her that, while angry, you also CARE ENOUGH about her NOT TO ABANDON HER at a time when she's sensing your anger and feeling really shitty about herself for having caused it (many submissives have a big problem with feeling far more guilt about far more things than they should). Going away in the middle of an argument is about the worst thing you can do. Sure it saves YOU the embarassment of "losing control" in front of your submissive, but look at what it can do the submissive! It is my experience that if you stay with an argument and with good intentions keep chipping away at it bit by bit, no matter how hard it is to deal with or how hot tempers arise, it will eventually get resolved. It may take all night and that might not be convenient for you, but anybody who agrees to take on complete responsibility for another human life should not still be at the trivial stage of development where "convenience" means something important to them.

Now let's see if I can post a smaller version of my porn picture:

 

[UCE]

Silence Is Golden and It Reeks Like Day-Old Urine

I think silence can say much more than words.
[/B]

Today's apparently your lucky day, Never. Almost everything I'm quoting in this thread comes from you.

About the above, when it comes to submissive women (perhaps even the guys too--but you'll have to tell me fellows if it's true), silence says far far more than words already, but it NEVER, Never, says what you want it to say. You see, we submissives, at least the female versions have this nasty little tendency to see everything as our fault anyway and when a dominant is displeased with us and shows that with silence, our active little imaginations go to work and we picture you, our master or mistress, thinking the most horrible things about our unworthy selves. We drive ourselves to distraction with the terrible imaginings of how you must hate us and all the wild and completely untrue things your silence signifies (including of course the two other lovers which we just KNOW you're keeping in the wings ready for the time when you tire of us).

So you resume communications with us eventually, and we have been through a fucking mental HELL and while we might on the surface appear grateful to you for "gracing" us with your lordly or ladylie presence again, inside we're deeply hurt, confused, certain that all the terrible things we imagined you thinking about us are true, that you did think those things, wondering why you don't "fix" our bad feelings by telling us what you actually think, and in general more fucked up than before the imposed silence.

You have to take into account a submissive's wild negative and self-critical imagination if you're going to go silent on them. That imagine will fill your "silence" with the most eloquent and convincing monsters, monster that, if they are allowed to continue to build and go unchecked, will eventually detroy the relationship beyond recognition. This could almost be written as another law of physics about submissive women: If a submissive does not know what you think of her, she will make something up and nine times out of ten what she thinks will be extremely exaggerated and unpleasant.

Plus, the silence you impose does you no good whatsoever, either. You are using your power in the relationship to support your own bad habits of clamming up and not being honest and open when things get difficult--these are not good relationships skills, they are emotional indulgences that adults cannot afford to cultivate.

Propoganda image below. Watch out!

UCE

 

[UCE]

ive just read thru all the replys to this thread and i have to wonder... just what warrents punishment?

Well, that's a question that has no general answer. It is different for every dominant. For my dominant, the qualifier is deliberate and pre-considered disobedience. That's the only thing he considers worth formal punishment. His reasoning is that without obedience from your submissive, you have a power exchange in name only, not in reality, and he, obviously, wants the reality. Other dominants probably have other rules.

isnt that what all subs ultimately want? to please their Dom? so why do something that will bring "punishment"?

It's kind of ludricous for an agnostic like myself to quote the Bible but the answer to this question was never said better than in that book, "The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak." Get it? If you don't now, you will, every submissive who has a long-term relationship with a dominant, particularly when it becomes live-in, experiences an unpleasant little emotional frame of mind known as "resistance." I'm simply saying that nobody is perfect and, in particular, the demands made on and the control exercised upon a submissive by a strong, demanding dominant, will cause her, after the honeymoon phase of the relationship has worn off and after they are living in person together, to resent having to obey at times, especially if he's the type (my dom is) who demands _immediate_ obedience meaning she has to drop whatever she's doing, no matter how important that activity is to her, and do his bidding. Experiencing the reality of obedience is kind of like experiecing the reality of pain: they both sound wonderfully hot in fantasy, but when you get to the real thing you realize pain hurts and having to do the dishes when you were in the middle of the best part of the story you were writing sometimes isn't fun or sexy. In fact it can be downright frustrating! In fact, you might stamp your feet and go up to your dominant and tell him exactly what sort of overbeaing stifiling of creativity creep he is! In fact, you may become enraged when all your cute begging and pleading to do what you want, which used to get you your way in the long distance relationship or early on when he was less committed to you, now falls on deaf ears. In fact, you might feel so impossibly frustrated by his "unfair" rules that you purposefully break one of them just to spite him and show him you're still your OWN person and not some brainless doormat. And then, if you the slave of my dominant, when you get around to admitting your willful on-purpose disobedience, you are punished. See how it works?

I've seen a lot of D&S relationships, and there seems to be a resistant phase that female submissives go through (not talking about SAMs here or the people who like to draw punishment upon themselves) shortly after the beginning of their live-in life with their dominant, particularly if their dominant is a pretty demanding and controlling fellow with lots of time restrictions, especially. This phase goes on for a year to three or more and can be very trying on both partners, but it's a perfectly natural part of the relationship development, and eventually, if it is handled right, it will die down.


It's a wee bit early for this next pic but I just found it the other day and I think it's cute as a button.

 

[artful]

UCE

quote:

Originally posted by Never
caspai,
If ‘we’ end up yelling then ‘we’ have both lost control of
ourselves. How could a sub trust a dom to be in control if that
dom can’t control themselves first?

If you’re at the point that you can’t communicate without
shouting then you’ve already stopped communicating.




The above was said in reference to calling a time out, or stopping communication
with the submissive. I had something long to say about this but I lost it when the
picture I tried to attach at the end was too big. So you get the short version:

The above quote is very true if you're talking about a relationship of equal power.
In a power-exchange, where one person is more or less dependant on another,
the situation is different and these words no longer apply. The point at which a
dominant loses control of himself is the point at which s/he feels the anger inside.
Running away from expressing the anger is just a limited and very poor choice
made _in reaction_ to an emotion that has got you under its sway. Yes, I
recommend staying there and fighting it out/working it out with the submissive
even if it means you do lose your temper (although there are many ways to
control anger so that you don't even feel it to begin with and anybody who
intends to take near absoulte control over another person's life needs to learn
these first) upon occasion. Whether you run away from the encounter by calling a
time out or stay there and deal with all the nasty unpleasantness, your
submissive is going to know you are angry at her. So why not show her that,
while angry, you also CARE ENOUGH about her NOT TO ABANDON HER at a time
when she's sensing your anger and feeling really shitty about herself for having
caused it (many submissives have a big problem with feeling far more guilt about
far more things than they should). Going away in the middle of an argument is
about the worst thing you can do. Sure it saves YOU the embarassment of "losing
control" in front of your submissive, but look at what it can do the submissive! It
is my experience that if you stay with an argument and with good intentions keep
chipping away at it bit by bit, no matter how hard it is to deal with or how hot
tempers arise, it will eventually get resolved. It may take all night and that might
not be convenient for you, but anybody who agrees to take on complete
responsibility for another human life should not still be at the trivial stage of
development where "convenience" means something important to them.

UCE,...first, let me say how you have impressed me with your most informative posts. No doubt you have studied the topics deeply, and sincerely for many years.

However, I disagree with your assumption of there not ever being a time for the Dom/me to, pause, take a break, regroup, suspend, delay, or stop communication for a set period of time.

I myself, am NOT the *perfect* Master, nor have I ever claimed to be. I will say, I am the *best* for Dream, (my current LDR slave).

There have been times I have ended our TEXT messaging for periods of less than 24 hours, and as little as 15 minutes, and have informed Dream ahead of time I was doing it, *AND*, informed her when I expected to RESUME text messaging.

As you should know, LDR'S are the most difficult relationships for ANY of us to initiate, maintain, and further strengthen.

While I agree that one should COMMUNICATE as long as is possible, on any given problems that MIGHT arise, there are times when COMMUNICATIONS have been severed, even though TEXT messaging continues.

It is at THIS point, I will SOMETIMES, institute a break, etc. Is it the BEST that can be done? In theory,...possibly not, but I suspect there are FEW, who could match my patience.

Are there other Dom/mes that have more, and better communicative skills than myself? Hell yes,...I try to learn more and more, how to IMPROVE my skills, as much as time and opportunities allow.

The breaks in communicative efforts, (as I have participated in, and stated above), are used as a LAST resort, but in MY mind, it does NOT lessen their validity of purpose, (which is not given as punishment, but ONLY, to allow Dream the time to THINK).

Though perfection is what we strive for,...we live in an imperfect world. For anyone to make a blanket statement, that breaking COMMUNICATION for a set period of time, is a childish, blah-blah-blah,(insert your own words here),...is in itself offensive to ME,...and I would expect MANY others also.

Having said that,...I respect your right to voice your opinion, but I don't agree with it.

(JMHO),...but it's mine,...and I own it.

 

[DarkMoon]

I find in my own relationship with my submissive, that the road to hell is paved with good intentions. For example, I ~know~ that cutting communication is one of the least of all preferred methods of dealing with her when she's been bad or disobedient. I agree it can and usually is cruel. But there are times when I much prefer to do that rather than say something harsher than I might after thinking the situation through. So usually, when something like that happens, I simply tell her that we will discuss it at a specified time in the future, which may be within the hour or the next morning, depending upon the situation.

I believe my choice of punishment, though, when karen has been a bad girl, is privilege deprivation. That usually works best of all. She loves spankings, so that's hardly punishment, is it? Although, some times when we are entertaining friends in the lifestyle, and she has been bad, and I have not yet punished her, I have her tell our guests what she did wrong, and announce that I am about to spank her, bare bottom style. Over my knee, bottom bared, and spanked in front of our friends is something she remembers for a long time.

In closing I'll say this - each of us are different. What works best for one is worthless for the next. Things you find appealing might repulse me and mine. So, use common sense, maintain honor, respect, and integrity in the relationship, and you'll find you won't be lacking in it.

DarkMoon~

 

[SexyChele]

In closing I'll say this - each of us are different. What works best for one is worthless for the next. Things you find appealing might repulse me and mine. So, use common sense, maintain honor, respect, and integrity in the relationship, and you'll find you won't be lacking in it.

DarkMoon~

DarkMoon, I do not believe I've had the pleasure of "meeting" you, but I just had to say these lines really struck me. I truly believe this is the gist of any sort of punishment. What doesn't work for me as a sub (cutting off all communication) might be just what is needed for another sub. While hearing disappointment in my Dominant's voice may cut me to my very core, it may have very little reaction on some one else.

It all comes down to the idea that we are all (Doms and subs) individuals, and not one thing will work for everyone. The key is thoroughly knowing each other, and being creative when the time or need calls for it.

Thank you for a wonderful quote!

 

[DarkMoon]

Chele...

The pleasure is mine, lovely submissive. I'm happy you agree, and delighted that you articulated it.

DarkMoon~

 

[NemoAlia]

Wow -- UCE, Chele, Quint, et al. You have such compelling ways of presenting your point! There is nothing that I could say to improve upon your ideas.

I read your posts (esp. the recent ones) out loud to my boyfriend (not a D/s relationship). I spent a good amount of my reading time commenting on how strongly I agreed with y'all. But at the end, W came out and said, "I don't see why cutting off communication would be wrong or counter-productive." I was shocked. I couldn't believe that this man, with whom I am so close, would say such a thing. Turns out, after 45 minutes of argument and (voluntary) silence, we don't disagree as much as we thought:

I said to W, "So, if you thought that arguing wasn't doing any good, and that I wasn't making any sense, you would just tell me to stop talking?"

"No," he replied, "But I would tell you that you were no longer interesting me."

Hmm... "Okay, but that's not cutting off communication entirely," I responded.

"It's not?"

"No. It's honestly describing your response to my words, and it's giving me a chance to rephrase or rethink my arguments in order to get through to you more clearly. In my opinion, that's what relationships should be: a permanent potential for getting through to each other."

Well, yeah. Turns out we agree on this point. And in my opinion, deliberately cutting off communication destroys that potential and, necessarily, the relationship (at least temporarily).

 

[artful]

Nemo

Well, yeah. Turns out we agree on this point.

Smiling and asking you this with my tongue in cheek,..."What point did you agree upon? That there is NEVER a reason for taking a break in text messaging? That it is ALWAYS harmful to the relationship between a Dom/me and sub? That if necessary they should each continue to TEXT message for days on end, if the problem is not resolved to BOTH their satisfaction?"

 

[NemoAlia]

To be honest, Artful, I was speaking more about skin-to-skin relationships. However, as far as long distance relationships go, of course there are reasons to take a break in text messaging: bathroom breaks, for example, or errands. However, I stand by my negative opinion of using a break in communication as punishment (or even discipline). In my opinion, yes, couples should continue to communicate until both are satisfied.

 

[MsWorthy]

This is probably the topic for an entirely new thread, but what in the world gave you the idea that submissives are adults or can ever be treated as such? My research, which has been extensive, informs me that every strong submissive (ie a submissive who feels their sexual orientation and desire to obey strongly) is _emotionally_ (not physically and not psychologically) a child. Emotional age varies from infancy up until about the age of 11 or 12 and most submissives (women at least, my remarks do not extend to men whom I have not studied to any extent) have an age range of three to six years iwhich they move forward and backward in, depending on what's going on in their internal lives. More submissives become arrested at the lower ages than at the upper ages of childhood.

To qualify my argument, I must understand what you mean by "a submissive who feels their sexual orientation and desire to obey strongly." However, I will proceed with the understanding that although *strongly* is subjective, it must simply be taken as accurate by those who use the term and is the same definition as my own.

When I first read this, my silent, emotional response was, "How utterly insulting!" To state as a fact (not just suggest) that all "strong" submissives are, emotionally, three to six year old children - is outrageous.

The intensity of my reaction was so strong it signalled me to wait (something I do when I feel I may have misunderstood something or have an unconscious investment in not believing/accepting). I assumed the submissives on this board would respond heatedly and immediately, and perhaps what I read would be made more clear to me. When that did not occur, I spent quite a bit of time thinking about this and pondering why it felt so insulting (not personally, of course, as I am not submissive, but insulting to those I strive to understand - and one of which I live with).

What became clear to me after thinking about your opinion (and having my partner read it and offer her opinion) is this: By stating, as fact, that submissives are not adults, emotionally, you imply (in my opinion), that they can not grow or become emotional adults. Now, if this is not your intention, then my point is moot and I withdraw it.

However, if this is your contention, my issue with it is - if submissives believe this fact then they have a ready excuse for not taking responsibility for their own emotional growth. They can easily sit back and say, "I can't help my emotional outbursts, because I am, by no fault of my own, stunted emotional, so you just have to accept me as I am."

I have been working to change this very attitude since I recognized it in many of the self-identified submissives I have met online (my own partner, included). The whole idea/premise that a sub is just what she is (baggage, faults, and immaturity) and her dom/me is expected to fix her, ie. make her happy and make it easy for her to obey/submit/not resist, simply keeps her locked into her immaturity and guarantees that she will not experience happiness.

If a submissive does not feel she can change her level of emotional maturity she will not take responsibility for it and will spend all of her time and energy expecting/demanding/hoping her dominant will fix her and make her happy. This is not only self-defeating, it is damaging to both her self-esteem and any dominant she dumps this expectation onto.

No one can fix anyone else and no matter how experienced/talented a dominant is, she/he can not make someone happy. She/he can only create an atmosphere of love and acceptance, and supply the opportunity for growth that will lead to self-esteem and self-confidence.

I know that this ground-breaking and little-known idea is going to be percieved as controversial by many people, but that, I believe, is simply because it is new and because it runs counter to the overall bdsm cultural mythology which is very supportive (in quite the self-serving way) of that horrible destructive creature which makes its home and hunting grounds the bdsm social world, the Selfish-Child-Playing-At-Dominance.

Wouldn't it be more accurate to say, Selfish-Child-Playing-At-Submission based on your facts? If a person is emotionally three years old, how can she/he possibly have the ability to offer anything of value to an adult relationship? It sounds to me as though you are casting the job of dominant as baby-sitter/therapist/parent. Who among us can claim that she/he can effectively and patiently deal with a three year old partner? Are you suggesting that if one can not take on that type of unrewarding task then she/he is not *truely* dominant?

The reasons for the emotional arrestment of submissives in childhood are utterly fascinating but I'll discuss them at a later date. Believe me now, however, that those reasons do indeed exist, they are verified by numerous observations, and that they have absolutely _nothing_, not. a. fucking. thing., to do with childhood abuse.

UCE

I would be very interested in reading a thread began with these reasons and your sources as its topic.


BTW, If there was election for a submissive representative - one who would postulate all of the facts about a submissive personality and would speak for all submissives - and you won, I am quite happy to say that my partner informs me that she didn't know about it, didn't offer her truth, and didn't vote. LOL

Have I misunderstood?

 

[MsWorthy]

The above was said in reference to calling a time out, or stopping communication with the submissive. I had something long to say about this but I lost it when the picture I tried to attach at the end was too big. So you get the short version:

The above quote is very true if you're talking about a relationship of equal power. In a power-exchange, where one person is more or less dependant on another, the situation is different and these words no longer apply.

A power exchange is an exchange of personal power, it is not about one person having more or less intellect, maturity, or responsibility in a relationship, although it sometimes works out that way. In a bdsm relationship, just as in any other relationship, either person can ask/call for a time out if she/he feels that emotions have taken over the brain and neither one is listening any longer.

Both the dom/me and the sub are dependent on one another, therefore, I do not see your point here.

The point at which a dominant loses control of himself is the point at which s/he feels the anger inside.

In my opinion, emotions are not something that are readily controlled. They occur whether we want them to or not, sometimes. Control has much less to do with what we feel rather than how we express what we feel.

Running away from expressing the anger is just a limited and very poor choice made _in reaction_ to an emotion that has got you under its sway.

Expressing anger is a healthy, positive thing to do; however, when emotional reactions are first felt, they are often too strong to control in the moment, and the impulse is to simply voice what one is feeling rather than take the time to validate what has been heard as accurate. Concentration is needed in order to focus your attention and get back on task.

Yes, I recommend staying there and fighting it out/working it out with the submissive even if it means you do lose your temper (although there are many ways to control anger so that you don't even feel it to begin with and anybody who intends to take near absoulte control over another person's life needs to learn these first) upon occasion.

I hear that this is what you would recommend.

I would be very interested in knowing how one prevents onself from feeling her/his emotions and why you think this is a good thing. Isn't repression the beginning of a mental/emotional problem? Or, are you suggesting that there is a way to accomplish this (not feeling your emotions) in a healthy, positive way? If you are, can you post the url/book/teacher's email address where this technique can be learned?

I hear that you think that one who wants absolute control over another's life should learn to not feel her/his emotions.

I disagree with all of your statements

Whether you run away from the encounter by calling a time out or stay there and deal with all the nasty unpleasantness, your submissive is going to know you are angry at her. So why not show her that, while angry, you also CARE ENOUGH about her NOT TO ABANDON HER . . .

I hardly think that calling a 15 minute time-out to collect yourself is abandonment, but I hear that this is your opinion.

. . . at a time when she's sensing your anger and feeling really shitty about herself for having caused it (many submissives have a big problem with feeling far more guilt about far more things than they should).

It seems to me that staying and losing control of yourself and possibly, saying some things that you don't mean (as harshly as they come out) - will only create more guilt in her. If she is, as you seem to be implying, as guilt ridden and unable to separate what she is responsible for and what she is not, she will take on responsibility for making her dominant lose control, which will only make it worse, will it not?

Going away in the middle of an argument is about the worst thing you can do. Sure it saves YOU the embarassment of "losing control" in front of your submissive, but look at what it can do the submissive!

Funny, my partner has expressed not only respect for me when I have done this, she has thanked me for enforcing a time out so that she was unable to continue her out-of-control behavior and embarrassed herself, felt more guilt, and disappointed me (her words).

But, then perhaps, she is not as strongly submissive, based on your experience/opinion, as she thinks she is.

It is my experience that if you stay with an argument and with good intentions keep chipping away at it bit by bit, no matter how hard it is to deal with or how hot tempers arise, it will eventually get resolved. It may take all night and that might not be convenient for you, but anybody who agrees to take on complete responsibility for another human life should not still be at the trivial stage of development where "convenience" means something important to them.
. . .

Taking a time out usually means my partner and I can resolve our issue/problem in much less time than all night and we are both quite happy about this when we have to get up and go to work the next day.

It seems that you may be postulating this position only for those interested in TPE(s), if that is the case, then perhaps my pov is moot.

 

[MsWorthy]

Re: Silence Is Golden and It Reeks Like Day-Old Urine

Today's apparently your lucky day, Never. Almost everything I'm quoting in this thread comes from you.

LOL You seem to have pushed several of my buttons with your posts. Perhaps pushing buttons was your intention. In any case, thank you for an interesting debate.

About the above, when it comes to submissive women (perhaps even the guys too--but you'll have to tell me fellows if it's true), silence says far far more than words already, but it NEVER, Never, says what you want it to say.

My response to this is based on taking a time out, not on using silence as punishment, as I do not use it as punishment.

My silence almost always says exactly what I want it to say. It says that I am feeling too frustrated, angry, or impatient to continue the conversation at this moment in time, and I need a few minutes to collect myself and give my partner the opportunity to consider whether she is accomplishing her goal with her communication style.

My partner hears what my silence is meant to say and responds to it appropriately. She takes the opportunity to collect her emotions and thoughts, and refocuses herself on presenting her view of the issue at hand rather than reacting emotionally to what she thinks I am saying.

I have taught her this skill in the four years we have been together and her self-esteem has grown as she has improved her use of it.

You see, we submissives, at least the female versions have this nasty little tendency to see everything as our fault anyway and when a dominant is displeased with us and shows that with silence, our active little imaginations go to work and we picture you, our master or mistress, thinking the most horrible things about our unworthy selves. We drive ourselves to distraction with the terrible imaginings of how you must hate us and all the wild and completely untrue things your silence signifies (including of course the two other lovers which we just KNOW you're keeping in the wings ready for the time when you tire of us).

My partner had many of these thoughts and fears in the beginning of our relationship, when she had little self-control and little self-esteem. She has learned that these thoughts and fears are not truths and has learned that the best way to get rid of them is to *check it out*. Now, she asks me if these thoughts/fears are, in fact, true before she lets herself "run" with them and upset herself for no reason.

~don't borrow trouble - find out if it is true before you believe it -
valid trouble/problems will come up in life anyway, so why borrow those that really aren't an issue~

My point is that any submissive can learn this and not be a slave to her emotions/fears/doubts. There is a way to stop the cycle and improve the quality of your life and increase your happiness. Yes, even a strongly/deeply submissive person can learn this too. ~smiles~

So you resume communications with us eventually, and we have been through a fucking mental HELL and while we might on the surface appear grateful to you for "gracing" us with your lordly or ladylie presence again, inside we're deeply hurt, confused, certain that all the terrible things we imagined you thinking about us are true, that you did think those things, wondering why you don't "fix" our bad feelings by telling us what you actually think, and in general more fucked up than before the imposed silence.

My experience is, if communication about the issue resumes in a calmer, more focused way, my partner (and other submissives I have suggested this method to) have felt much less upset and much more validated because her partner has taken her/his concerns seriously enough to make the effort to keep them on task and actually spend time on the issue rather than waste energy on over-blown emotion that us usually misdirected.

You have to take into account a submissive's wild negative and self-critical imagination if you're going to go silent on them. That imagine will fill your "silence" with the most eloquent and convincing monsters, monster that, if they are allowed to continue to build and go unchecked, will eventually detroy the relationship beyond recognition. This could almost be written as another law of physics about submissive women: If a submissive does not know what you think of her, she will make something up and nine times out of ten what she thinks will be extremely exaggerated and unpleasant.

Teaching her to *check it out* rather than believe it just because it feels true takes care of this problem nicely.

Plus, the silence you impose does you no good whatsoever, either. You are using your power in the relationship to support your own bad habits of clamming up and not being honest and open when things get difficult--these are not good relationships skills, they are emotional indulgences that adults cannot afford to cultivate.
. . .
UCE

I am always open and honest about how I feel about my partner and any issues/problems we may encounter. I demonstrate my commitment to her by keeping us on task and working on it until it is resolved to our satisfaction.

And, these are exactly the communication skills an adult needs in order to make any relationship successful, in my opinion.

 

[SexyChele]

To qualify my argument, I must understand what you mean by "a submissive who feels their sexual orientation and desire to obey strongly." However, I will proceed with the understanding that although *strongly* is subjective, it must simply be taken as accurate by those who use the term and is the same definition as my own.

When I first read this, my silent, emotional response was, "How utterly insulting!" To state as a fact (not just suggest) that all "strong" submissives are, emotionally, three to six year old children - is outrageous.

The intensity of my reaction was so strong it signalled me to wait (something I do when I feel I may have misunderstood something or have an unconscious investment in not believing/accepting). I assumed the submissives on this board would respond heatedly and immediately, and perhaps what I read would be made more clear to me. When that did not occur, I spent quite a bit of time thinking about this and pondering why it felt so insulting (not personally, of course, as I am not submissive, but insulting to those I strive to understand - and one of which I live with).

I have to say thank you for responding to this, Ms Worthy. I did in fact read this post, and did not respond because, quite frankly, I felt it to be one person's opinion and nothing more. No scientific research, no verified studies - simply one person having supposedly talked to several submissives. Who those submissives were, what state their emotional health was in, what type of relationships they were in, where they were in lives, their ages, socio-economic background, and an entire host of other things were not mentioned or talked about. I doubt those things were even considered in the "reasearch".

To be a contributing, active member of any relationship, other than an abusive one, one must have emotional maturity. And that included submissives. This doesn't always mean that submissive are healthy - some may be in need of help. But a person (Dominant) who has the emotional maturity of, say, 45 would probably grow weary very quickly of a submissive who has the emotional maturity of a 6 year old. At least when I talk to prospective Dominants, all have stated they do not want a "child". They are no looking to "fix" some one. They have all wanted a submissive who is sure of herself, complete in her own right, intelligent, and self-assured. Maybe I simply draw that type of Dominant because I fit that profile. I have met Dominants who were looking for "little girls". It has never worked out, as they were emotionally "too young" for me.

I think the reason most submissives here did not respond was due to the fact that the "research" was simply one person's opinion. Big difference between that and a truly scientific study of human behavior.

 

[SexyChele]

Re: Silence Is Golden and It Reeks Like Day-Old Urine

You see, we submissives, at least the female versions have this nasty little tendency to see everything as our fault anyway and when a dominant is displeased with us and shows that with silence, our active little imaginations go to work and we picture you, our master or mistress, thinking the most horrible things about our unworthy selves. We drive ourselves to distraction with the terrible imaginings of how you must hate us and all the wild and completely untrue things your silence signifies (including of course the two other lovers which we just KNOW you're keeping in the wings ready for the time when you tire of us).

So you resume communications with us eventually, and we have been through a fucking mental HELL and while we might on the surface appear grateful to you for "gracing" us with your lordly or ladylie presence again, inside we're deeply hurt, confused, certain that all the terrible things we imagined you thinking about us are true, that you did think those things, wondering why you don't "fix" our bad feelings by telling us what you actually think, and in general more fucked up than before the imposed silence.

You have to take into account a submissive's wild negative and self-critical imagination if you're going to go silent on them. That imagine will fill your "silence" with the most eloquent and convincing monsters, monster that, if they are allowed to continue to build and go unchecked, will eventually detroy the relationship beyond recognition. This could almost be written as another law of physics about submissive women: If a submissive does not know what you think of her, she will make something up and nine times out of ten what she thinks will be extremely exaggerated and unpleasant.

This is an extremely broad statement, in my opinion. Yes, some submissive (most?) might have a tendency towards being self-critical. Some may have over-active imaginations and blame themselves for everything that is wrong in the relationship.

But not all.

If a Dominant has expressed displeasure in something I've done, I will examine what he says. If I can see his point, I'll concede. If I don't, or if I truly do not believe I was wrong, I will discuss it with him. No, not like a screaming banshee, but with directness and respect. I do not simply "take blame" because I am submissive. I do, in the heat of things, need to sometimes step back and cool off to see things more objectively. But there have been many, many times (actually, more often than not), when, after cooling off, I have been able to sit down and talk things through with a Dominant and actually had him tell me I was in the right.

There are submissives out there who can look at things openly, and will not simply heap blame on themselves because it is part of some supposed "nature". There are those of us who can look at the relationship and come to a conclusion as to what level of blame, if any, we need to assume.

 

[MasterKensbeany]

Re: Silence Is Golden and It Reeks Like Day-Old Urine

WOW!! I was away a couple of days and come back to find that, as a submissive/slave, I've been classified and a self centered, foolish, guilt ridden, emotionally crippled child and my Master as a spoiled brat wannabe.

UCE, I find your posts and your arguments to be insulting and demeaning to both my Master and myself and to many others I know personally within the community. I'm not sure who you've been talking to but I do know you're not speaking for me. Perhaps you should be more careful to qualify your posts.

If, during a heated argument, Master called a time out and sent me to a corner to calm down and think things thru I am certainly not going to spend the time imagining the worst and seething about how he is "abusing" me. That would be the epitome of childishness indeed. I would spend that time trying to cool my emotions and put my arguments into rational order to better present them when the time comes. I'm sure that's what Master would be doing as well. That's what adults do. In my personal experience, allowing an argument to turn into a screaming match where emotions (and our mouths) run unchecked is worse than counterproductive. Your argument that a real Dominant will be able to control his/her emotions is ludicrous, they are no less human than submissives. The mark of their maturity and self control is in being able to take a step back and giving themselves time to get things under control again, not in staying and punching it out verbally with their submissive.

My respect for my Master isn't because I am deluded that he is perfect, he isn't. My respect for him comes from his honesty about his imperfections and his willingness to deal with them and mine at the same time.

Respectfully
beany