Preferred Forms of Punishment

[artful]

Re: Re: Silence Is Golden and It Reeks Like Day-Old Urine

UCE, I find your posts and your arguments to be insulting and demeaning to both my Master and myself and to many others I know personally within the community. I'm not sure who you've been talking to but I do know you're not speaking for me. Perhaps you should be more careful to qualify your posts.

Respectfully
beany

Your post was well written, direct, and I totally agree.

 

[MasterKensbeany]

Artful wrote:

"Your post was well written, direct, and I totally agree. "

Thank you Sir. I have to quit going back and reading thru those posts, the smoke coming out of my ears keeps setting off the alarms.

Respectfully
beany

 

[zipman]

Re: Cas

If done in a callous manner,...I agree. There are times however when one needs to take a breather as no forward progress is being made in efforts of true communication.

I have always given Dream a notice of when I am terminating our messaging,...and when I will once again be available to message with her.

It has NEVER been over 24 hours,...in fact,...normally only an hour or two. Sometimes as little as 15 minutes.

Personally, I see absolutely nothing wrong with this. 24 hours of silence is Not the emotional abuse or the height of cruelty. There are times that giving a person a chance to think about what has been said is important.

Automatically labeling the person as abusive is judgemental and inaccurate. In effect, it would be subjugating the Dom for not catering to their subs communication needs. If discussion has not worked, sometimes a break leads both parties to more effective communication or better understanding of what the issues are. A break can also provide a chance for introspection.

 

[zipman]

<snip>
My research, which has been extensive, informs me that every strong submissive (ie a submissive who feels their sexual orientation and desire to obey strongly) is _emotionally_ (not physically and not psychologically) a child. Emotional age varies from infancy up until about the age of 11 or 12 and most submissives (women at least, my remarks do not extend to men whom I have not studied to any extent) have an age range of three to six years iwhich they move forward and backward in, depending on what's going on in their internal lives. More submissives become arrested at the lower ages than at the upper ages of childhood.

I know that this ground-breaking and little-known idea is going to be percieved as controversial by many people, but that, I believe, is simply because it is new and because it runs counter to the overall bdsm cultural mythology which is very supportive (in quite the self-serving way) of that horrible destructive creature which makes its home and hunting grounds the bdsm social world, the Selfish-Child-Playing-At-Dominance.
<snip>

UCE

With all due respect UCE, I have never read a more insulting and ridiculous post on this board, and I have read a lot of them. To label any subs to being "emotionally of the age of 11-12 (max) is just preposterous. While there may be some subs who are this way, as a generalization it falls far short of my real-life and on-line experiences. I would say that your theory is like many others, either written or propogated by people who extrapolate suppositions based on a poorly chosen control group.

There are many subs on this site who have clearly demonstrated a high EQ which would clearly contradict your theory.

 

[NemoAlia]

Okay, going back and re-reading y'all's posts, it has slapped me in the face that I skipped over a very integral part of UCE's argument in my haste to agree with her that cutting off communication is a bad thing: her idea of stunted emotional age. Unless you believe that no one gets beyond an emotional age of eleven or twelve (and, while that would be a difficult argument to sustain, it has been done) there's no reason to claim that sexual submissives are stuck in the past.

That being said, I still believe that one person's cutting communication is wrong. I think that a break must be natural; it must result from both partners ceasing their chatter long enough to think. It cannot be forced in a way that's healthy.

This is true in my experience, at least.

 

[Quint]

Cowardly & irrational?

That is a bit inflammatory and judgmental is it not?

Eb

Yes, if one were to overlook the disclaimers I liberally sprinkled in that post. MY relationship, I specified. MY standards. MY opinion. I actually thought I beat that point into the ground. I was a little heated when I wrote the post originally and my words reflected that. A topic that perturbs me. However, I am merely saying that I would be more than distressed if T tried to cut our communications to teach me a lesson. Whatever you or anyone else does with your sub is your business and I have no right to even imply otherwise. (But please don't make me pull an Artful at the end of every post. Take my words as my opinion unless I specify otherwise.)

Since then, there have been some extremely thought-provoking replies. MsWorthy, I can see a great deal of validity in your method of dealing with your girl, but I believe I read that this is not punishment at all. Rather, it is a pause for mental and emotional calming so that communication is improved rather than eliminated. That got me thinking about the possible motivation for couples who use communication-deprivation as punishment; to you who answered in the affirmative, do you see this as a way of gathering your thoughts before reopening the channels? Or is it simply a way of causing emotional pain on a level that the sub (with the exception of Chele ) is sure to be hurting from and that will teach her an unforgettable lesson? Motivation seems to be key in this issue. Or at least in my view of it.

(Sorry for the delayed response...long story, summed up in "no internet yet")

 

[P. B. Walker]

Cutting off communication can be very effective in my mind. As you say, it can be used to calm the tempers before opening up communication again. But it can also be used to punish. I don't see this as being unreasonable as long as it is not done for extended periods of time. If you think about it as a privilege it definitely makes sense. In many situations, a Dominate will take away a privilege of the submissive as a form of punishment (e.g., food, sex, TV, computer usage, etc., etc., etc.). Is not communicating with your Dominant a privilege? By cutting it off for a short period does it not make you realize how important it is and how much you should value it (as a submissive)? It should be something that you treasure and when are able to communicate you shouldn't waste it with trival things like temper tantrums, and the like.

This is just an additional insight I had to this arguement after reading Quint's last post. Just my two cents...

PBW

 

[Aurora_s_Flame]

As a switch, I have been on both sides of the spectrum. Personally, the submissive portion of me would have the hardest with being unable to serve my Dom/me. Once, when I was very out of line (and knew it, but couldn't seem to help it) my Dom at the time ignored me, practically threw me away. This was just devistating for me. The inner need to make others happy is very much instilled within my being, and being cast aside, knowing that is was my own actions that kept me from fullfilling the need to care for my Dom felt like it was breaking me.

In a Domme format, I have usually resorted to cum control as a form of punishment. Spanking is useful as well, but that really depends upon the sub. Some thrive on it, and in that it is not really punishment. Personally I prefer to hear the begging for forgiveness as the internal needs, both physical and mental, surmount with no choice but to repent.

Just my thoughts...

~ Rora

 

[lillum]

The most effective punisments he uses on me are things I really hate like time out by myself and he will use the quirt which I hate more than any other sensation.He will also use words as in telling me how badly I dissapointed him and I could have damaged myself and/or our relationship...lillum

 

[zipman]

This is probably the topic for an entirely new thread, but what in the world gave you the idea that submissives are adults or can ever be treated as such? My research, which has been extensive, informs me that every strong submissive (ie a submissive who feels their sexual orientation and desire to obey strongly) is _emotionally_ (not physically and not psychologically) a child. Emotional age varies from infancy up until about the age of 11 or 12 and most submissives (women at least, my remarks do not extend to men whom I have not studied to any extent) have an age range of three to six years iwhich they move forward and backward in, depending on what's going on in their internal lives. More submissives become arrested at the lower ages than at the upper ages of childhood.

I know that this ground-breaking and little-known idea is going to be percieved as controversial by many people, but that, I believe, is simply because it is new and because it runs counter to the overall bdsm cultural mythology which is very supportive (in quite the self-serving way) of that horrible destructive creature which makes its home and hunting grounds the bdsm social world, the Selfish-Child-Playing-At-Dominance.

The reasons for the emotional arrestment of submissives in childhood are utterly fascinating but I'll discuss them at a later date. Believe me now, however, that those reasons do indeed exist, they are verified by numerous observations, and that they have absolutely _nothing_, not. a. fucking. thing., to do with childhood abuse.

UCE

I would still love to see an explanation for this post. Asides from the fact that I find it to be ridiculous, I would be offended if I were a sub and someone said to me that I was emotionally a child.

I would love to hear more about your "extensive research" on this "ground-breaking" topic.

Still waiting,
Zip

 

[rosco rathbone]

Seems like "punishment for disobeying an order the obeying of which had been previously decided by both sides to be an important part of the relationship" should be seperated from "punishment for pissing me off in the normal course of relationship stress". I can think of all kinds of punishments for the first. For the second, punishment seems like a disastrous idea.

WHen I first got here, I read a cymbidia story where the male top "punishes" the female heroine with a brutal asswhipping for the crime of breaking off the relationship for a while and making him lonely, sad and insecure. Very hot read, but untenable in real so called life, at least in a stable relationship.

rosko

 

[morninggirl5]

I would still love to see an explanation for this post. Asides from the fact that I find it to be ridiculous, I would be offended if I were a sub and someone said to me that I was emotionally a child.

I would love to hear more about your "extensive research" on this "ground-breaking" topic.

Still waiting,
Zip

Zip, i think you're going to be waiting for a long time.

As a sub, you'd think i'd be offended at her assertions. Being offended gives them too much credence, in my opinion.

 

[Ricckk]

Cutting off communication is indeed effective but it is communicating by not communicating and therefore can appear to seem passive/aggressive. For me, if a frown is not enough, I directly communicate my disappointment verbally. For extreme cases, I would withold tactile contact. To any submissive worth his or her weight, this should be much more effective than physical punishment which is generally used in the lifestyle to communicate pleasure of one sort or another.

Some submissives are emotionally adolescent. True
Some submissives are emotionally mature. True
Some dominants are emotionally adolescent. True

You get the point...

 

[zipman]

Zip, i think you're going to be waiting for a long time.

As a sub, you'd think i'd be offended at her assertions. Being offended gives them too much credence, in my opinion.

LOL, you're probably right mg5, but then again, I'm going anywhere and I'm not holding breath while I wait.

I think that if you are going to make controversial and insulting remarks to an entire group based on your own "research" then you should be expected to back it up.

 

[Ebonyfire]

Yes, if one were to overlook the disclaimers I liberally sprinkled in that post. MY relationship, I specified. MY standards. MY opinion. I actually thought I beat that point into the ground. I was a little heated when I wrote the post originally and my words reflected that. A topic that perturbs me. However, I am merely saying that I would be more than distressed if T tried to cut our communications to teach me a lesson. Whatever you or anyone else does with your sub is your business and I have no right to even imply otherwise. (But please don't make me pull an Artful at the end of every post. Take my words as my opinion unless I specify otherwise.)

Since then, there have been some extremely thought-provoking replies. MsWorthy, I can see a great deal of validity in your method of dealing with your girl, but I believe I read that this is not punishment at all. Rather, it is a pause for mental and emotional calming so that communication is improved rather than eliminated. That got me thinking about the possible motivation for couples who use communication-deprivation as punishment; to you who answered in the affirmative, do you see this as a way of gathering your thoughts before reopening the channels? Or is it simply a way of causing emotional pain on a level that the sub (with the exception of Chele ) is sure to be hurting from and that will teach her an unforgettable lesson? Motivation seems to be key in this issue. Or at least in my view of it.

(Sorry for the delayed response...long story, summed up in "no internet yet")

I forgot that I wrote this. I hope things are back to normal for you.

I figured that is what you meant but thought I would ask. I know you would get back to it eventually.

Eb

 

[Ebonyfire]

I would still love to see an explanation for this post. Asides from the fact that I find it to be ridiculous, I would be offended if I were a sub and someone said to me that I was emotionally a child.

I would love to hear more about your "extensive research" on this "ground-breaking" topic.

Still waiting,
Zip

Me too, Zip.

Eb

 

[UCE]

Re: Re: Silence Is Golden and It Reeks Like Day-Old Urine

LOL You seem to have pushed several of my buttons with your posts. Perhaps pushing buttons was your intention. In any case, thank you for an interesting debate.

I don't believe this crap! I really don't believe it.

All right, "Worthy," somebody brought my attention to this thread just recently and if they hadn't I never would have seen your ridiculous temper tantrum over my posts. But now I have, so LISTEN UP! as I am only going to say this once to you. I have no interest, ever, in pushing anybody's buttons, UNLESS THEY FLAME ME FIRST which is what you have so clearly done. I am only interested in stating what I know to be true as well as I know it. I also have no interest in arguing these points with someone whose manner is as cold, haughty, and negative as your. When I first came on this board you insistently PM'd me to try to discover my identity. You never replied to my friendly email in response. This tells me a great deal about you, none of it good.

I will not discuss what I know to be true with someone who phrases everything in the ridiculously hostile way that you do. Change your attitude, which sucks, Ms. Worthy, or you won't hear from me again. I know what I know and I will continue to say it when I think it's important. But I will not continue this furthe because I do NOT need this kind of stuck-up, arrogant, and outraged-with-no-basis harrassment in my life. Your anger toward my posts simply shows me and the world your massive insecurity. Take it elsewhere, I won't accept it here.

Unda. Crucia. Eximius.

PS: For what it's worth to everybody else, when I am writing about D&S relationships and the people in them, like dominants, I am always talking about full time 24/7 absolute power exchanges, master and slave. If you do NOT have that sort of extreme relationship, my remarks probably do not even begin to apply to you. Please consider that carefully before you do, and maybe you can avoid getting your knickers in a hitch the way this Worthy person has done!

 

[zipman]

With all due respect UCE, I have never read a more insulting and ridiculous post on this board, and I have read a lot of them. To label any subs to being "emotionally of the age of 11-12 (max) is just preposterous. While there may be some subs who are this way, as a generalization it falls far short of my real-life and on-line experiences. I would say that your theory is like many others, either written or propogated by people who extrapolate suppositions based on a poorly chosen control group.

There are many subs on this site who have clearly demonstrated a high EQ which would clearly contradict your theory.

This was what I was pointing you to UCE. Not MsWorthy's post. This was the theory that I wanted you to explain.

Obviously, anyone who questions your posts is immediately discounted and then insulted by you.
And you call me immature?

 

[Desdemona]

This is probably the topic for an entirely new thread, but what in the world gave you the idea that submissives are adults or can ever be treated as such? My research, which has been extensive, informs me that every strong submissive (ie a submissive who feels their sexual orientation and desire to obey strongly) is _emotionally_ (not physically and not psychologically) a child. Emotional age varies from infancy up until about the age of 11 or 12 and most submissives (women at least, my remarks do not extend to men whom I have not studied to any extent) have an age range of three to six years iwhich they move forward and backward in, depending on what's going on in their internal lives. More submissives become arrested at the lower ages than at the upper ages of childhood.

I know that this ground-breaking and little-known idea is going to be percieved as controversial by many people, but that, I believe, is simply because it is new and because it runs counter to the overall bdsm cultural mythology which is very supportive (in quite the self-serving way) of that horrible destructive creature which makes its home and hunting grounds the bdsm social world, the Selfish-Child-Playing-At-Dominance.

The reasons for the emotional arrestment of submissives in childhood are utterly fascinating but I'll discuss them at a later date. Believe me now, however, that those reasons do indeed exist, they are verified by numerous observations, and that they have absolutely _nothing_, not. a. fucking. thing., to do with childhood abuse.

UCE

With all due respect, I don't buy it the emotional age theory at this point. I don't buy into the findings of any research that hasn't been replicated several times. Before I accept a theory based on research findings I'd need to see the study size and methodology and examine the variables that were considered. Have these findings been published in a peer reviewed professional journal? If so, I'd love to read it.

 

[Michael42]

re emotional age

this nonsense dates back to the work of Krafft- Ebbing and has been pretty thoroughly debunked by folks like Susie Bright, Gloria Brame and Anita Phillips

 

[zipman]

Re: re emotional age

this nonsense dates back to the work of Krafft- Ebbing and has been pretty thoroughly debunked by folks like Susie Bright, Gloria Brame and Anita Phillips

Hey Michael42. Welcome to the forum! I would love to hear more about it if you have a chance.

Thanks
Zip

 

[UCE]

Zip, i think you're going to be waiting for a long time.

As a sub, you'd think i'd be offended at her assertions. Being offended gives them too much credence, in my opinion.

Why do insecure haters always assume that becasue a person is new to a forum and they've lost track of a thread that they're somehow running scared from the posse out to get them. Because they're IDIOTS and COWARDS that's why...and they're always willing to take potshots at you in a thread that you seem not to be monitoring, lolol!

I cosider reading this close-minded individual's haughty ravings about someone she doesn't even know to be giving HER too much creedence, far too much.

PLONKETY PLONK little morninghater

 

[Ebonyfire]

Why do insecure haters always assume that becasue a person is new to a forum and they've lost track of a thread that they're somehow running scared from the posse out to get them. Because they're IDIOTS and COWARDS that's why...and they're always willing to take potshots at you in a thread that you seem not to be monitoring, lolol!

I cosider reading this close-minded individual's haughty ravings about someone she doesn't even know to be giving HER too much creedence, far too much.

PLONKETY PLONK little morninghater

You give yourself too much credit. No one hates you, why bother? You are inconsequential.

Eb

 

[UCE]

Artful wrote:

"Your post was well written, direct, and I totally agree. "

Thank you Sir. I have to quit going back and reading thru those posts, the smoke coming out of my ears keeps setting off the alarms.

Respectfully
beany

I'm talking about real things that apparently you do not have experience with, but which nevertheless exist for many people. If the post doesn't fit you, why not move on? Why apply it to yourself and get smoke out of your ears? The posts will be read and understood by the people to whom they were inplictly addressed to: those in similar situations and with similar relationship. You need not worry about it, even to the point of getting upset.

Better yet, why don't people ask intelligent questions about things they don't understand rather than needing to stick their pathetic little hissy fits into every other sentence they write? Some of the responses I've gotten to these original posts, which were not meant hostiliy at all, are dripping with hateful venon and smelling of vented spleen. What children! And what defensive children to feel so threatned by one person's words!

The level of general defensivenss on this board among some of the popular posters is pretty shocking. Why are there so many sticks up so many haughty asses? (not talking specifically about you beany--thought I had to say that because there are people here that imagine idiotically that if you reply to their post, then everything you say in your reply HAS to reply directly to them--it's some sort of Idiot Unspoken Poster Rule apparently--and cannot possibly be meant generally--even if you directly word it as general. Sheeh! Again beany I am not accusing you of being the one thinking this. I am referring to somone else, lol)

Hey everybody, grow the fuck up! Respond to me as an ADULT would, and maybe you'll get the answers you so spittingly (wiping slime off sleeve) accuse me of not having, lol!

 

[UCE]

Seems like "punishment for disobeying an order the obeying of which had been previously decided by both sides to be an important part of the relationship" should be seperated from "punishment for pissing me off in the normal course of relationship stress". I can think of all kinds of punishments for the first. For the second, punishment seems like a disastrous idea.

I think this is really true if you're talking about the absolute relationships I always refer to in my posts, Rosco. But when you shade off into relationships where the power isn't total or temporary, where the people are more or less equal fuckbuddies in which one person takes the submissive role in the bedroom, that second sort of punishment, unfair as it may be, does not take on the dire emotional consequences for a submissive that it would if the dominant held all the strings of control. The defining difference is that the submissive in the less-extreme form of relationship can use the threat of leaving and then actually leaving to influence her dominant to stop doing something which is unfair or clearly harmful to the relationships. But it probably never has to reach that point in less-controlling relationships. Both partners will see that something isn't working and try to do the normal things that standard couples do to fix the imbalance. But I call it a defining difference because both partners know the submissive can pack up and leave in such a relationship.

But you know, if you become so closely bonded to a dominant that you cannot leave as is the case with myself and submissives I have known who are like me, you're not going to be with one who pulls this kind of shit (punishes you for his own stress). The bonding process between master and slave (I hate that term--bonding--but don't know what else to call it) is a long and gradual one in my experience and if a dominant is likely to to treat a submissive unfairly or hurtfully, he's liable to do it early on, at a point where the submissive can still bring herself to leave him.

Unda