Premises, premises, always premises.

[Ishmael]

Thank you.
Now I understand what you were talking about.

Of course gossip happens in many contexts, not just on message boards.

The very nature of gossip is a subjective one sided view.

When things go wrong in relationships, friends of the couple hear more than one version of events.

It seems to me that there is panacea in saying subjective things about someone who has not met your expectations.

I am not wary of people who do that, I am wary of those who do not balance it with other comments about that person.
If a person is not perfect for another person, it does not mean they are not perfect for someone else.

No relationship can be so bad that you stay in it if every aspect of that person is terrible.

One of the things I loved about being with Andante, was the warmth and love he had in his voice when he spoke of his wife. He was a widower and it was clear he loved her still.

Andante did post on here, but other people I have spoken of have not.

Maybe I have been lucky, I have never met anyone who has been so bad I could not find a balance between why it has not worked out, and what they are like as a person.

Once more you are personalizing this. I, and others, have been watching this for years now.

I don't discount your opinion. I merely point out that you are quite mistaken in trying to tie this in to something personal to the exclusion of any other alternative. I have posted much the same in this very forum long before you ever arrived and also in circumstances with which I had no particular personal interest beyond observation. Given that, I would submit that I'm at least consistent.

Your particular 'luck' really has nothing to do with this thread. I'm happy for you in that respect, but I, for one, place no particular faith in luck. If I felt all that 'lucky' I'd probably be in Las Vegas, and destitute.

No dear, if you really want to understand this thread you must step back and read as dispassionately as you can. If you look at things in terms on one relationship you'll have missed my point entirely because it has nothing to do with just one person.

If you don't believe me, ask RJ.

Ishmael

 

[Netzach]

Since everyone's reading comprehension is so incredibly poor maybe the question is the communication, not the readers.

 

[Ishmael]

Since everyone's reading comprehension is so incredibly poor maybe the question is the communication, not the readers.

That's already been pointed out. In more than one post. I even have a related thread going up on the GB. And it is gender related. I think there's even a related discussion I had going with MissT in this forum.

And this all relates back to 'topping from the bottom.' Manipulation if you will. Those that are prone to and those that aren't. Those who posture and those that perform.

It's quite easy to become caught up in the day to day long distance make believe. You see it all the time. Don't ya?

This is a good place to start. Ancient thread. I had no dog in that hunt beyond my disgust for the behavior of the sub. All of whoms posts are available under both of her nicks.

Open letter.

Ishmael

 

[FurryFury]

Errant thought:

Manipulation can be a good, neutral or bad thing.

 

[A Desert Rose]

That's already been pointed out. In more than one post. I even have a related thread going up on the GB. And it is gender related. I think there's even a related discussion I had going with MissT in this forum.

And this all relates back to 'topping from the bottom.' Manipulation if you will. Those that are prone to and those that aren't. Those who posture and those that perform.

It's quite easy to become caught up in the day to day long distance make believe. You see it all the time. Don't ya?

This is a good place to start. Ancient thread. I had no dog in that hunt beyond my disgust for the behavior of the sub. All of whoms posts are available under both of her nicks.

Open letter.

Ishmael

Another nightmare-ish ghoul from the past... God, Ish. Thanks for that reminder of her. I guess it is Halloween time, after all.

I HAVE to SAY that WD HAD the best POST in that THREAD, though.

 

[Ishmael]

Errant thought:

Manipulation can be a good, neutral or bad thing.

Really?

Ishmael

 

[Ishmael]

Another nightmare-ish ghoul from the past... God, Ish. Thanks for that reminder of her. I guess it is Halloween time, after all.

I HAVE to SAY that WD HAD the best POST in that THREAD, though.

He did capture the moment, and the mind.

Ishmael

 

[A Desert Rose]

The problem with dredging up this thread is that there is no context for people NOW to contect it to.

Those of us who were there then, and knew Artful and this female, remember what a nightmare she was and how mean she was to him. (God rest his soul.)

This was the most extreme case of topping from the bottom that I've ever seen. And it was the worst drama scene possible... all over Lit... every forum she could infect with her horrible type. I've not seen anything like that since. But I think many of us learned lessons from making too public, one's affections.

And it's a good example why most of us keep our relationships private.

In the context of the current topping that you're speaking of, nothing/no one is even close to what ~Nightmare~ was like.

 

[Ishmael]

The problem with dredging up this thread is that there is no context for people NOW to contect it to.

Those of us who were there then, and knew Artful and this female, remember what a nightmare she was and how mean she was to him. (God rest his soul.)

This was the most extreme case of topping from the bottom that I've ever seen. And it was the worst drama scene possible... all over Lit... every forum she could infect with her horrible type. I've not seen anything like that since. But I think many of us learned lessons from making too public, one's affections.

And it's a good example why most of us keep our relationships private.

In the context of the current topping that you're speaking of, nothing/no one is even close to what ~Nightmare~ was like.

Yes, it is an extreme example DR. But it didn't start that way. It was all quite innocuous and seemingly quite ordinary. Forum darlings in a sense if you recall.

But all the red flags were there from the beginning. Art was warned, but ignored those warnings. We all seem to have blind spots from time to time.

And you're right. Halloween is the apropos time to resurrect this particular nightmare.

Ishmael

 

[A Desert Rose]

Yes, it is an extreme example DR. But it didn't start that way. It was all quite innocuous and seemingly quite ordinary. Forum darlings in a sense if you recall.

But all the red flags were there from the beginning. Art was warned, but ignored those warnings. We all seem to have blind spots from time to time.

And you're right. Halloween is the apropos time to resurrect this particular nightmare.

Ishmael

You're right, Ish, it was slow, quiet and innocuous when it began. So many Doms and Dommes of high repute here, tried to help Art with gentle direction and advice... he just wouldn't see it or acknowledge where this relationship was headed.

And then it came crashing down around him in a huge, ugly way. Such a nice man, too.

You know yourself though, where this one is headed. People will deny topping or tell you that it's all in fun or that it's none of your business to determine who's playing and who's serious.

You know the drill. You've been here longer than I. ;-D

 

[CutieMouse]

*****

 

[Ishmael]

You're right, Ish, it was slow, quiet and innocuous when it began. So many Doms and Dommes of high repute here, tried to help Art with gentle direction and advice... he just wouldn't see it or acknowledge where this relationship was headed.

And then it came crashing down around him in a huge, ugly way. Such a nice man, too.

You know yourself though, where this one is headed. People will deny topping or tell you that it's all in fun or that it's none of your business to determine who's playing and who's serious.

You know the drill. You've been here longer than I. ;-D

Yup. I really don't care DR. You raise the flag and then it's someone elses look out.

There are a few that insist that my observations are based on personal experience. Well, doh. They're right, they just don't know when that experience happened. And that's the marvelous thing about experience. It allows you to recognize a mistake before you make it again.

On the other hand, I've never met a manipulator that learned a damned thing. They just move on to the next mark. And that's a drama to watch as well.

Ishmael

 

[Ishmael]

You won't hear it from me; I learned that lesson ages ago...

(Small nod to RJ, who probably remembers why.)

I know he does.

Some will never learn.

Ismael

 

[FurryFury]

Really?

Ishmael

Really. Just about any human quality can been seen that way, even those we routinely assign a negative connotation to.

 

[Ishmael]

Really. Just about any human quality can been seen that way, even those we routinely assign a negative connotation to.

I suppose, but I don't deal with the grey. Just a mealy mouthed philosophy that justifies any behavior.

I'm sure you can find someone to play that game with though.

Ishmael

 

[FurryFury]

The gray is what truly matters IMO but I'm not trying to get you or anyone to play any games.

 

[Netzach]

Ancient indeed.

To the point of who cares, no offense to the deceased or those who do, but really. I hope if I shuffle off this is not what people have to remember me by.

I have largely ceased to let other people's doings disrupt my life as much as I humanly can. Honestly, if I had to remind everyone they're doing it wrong every five minutes, exactly how long do you think I could handle a majority M/f community?

If I don't care for the antics of someone else's bottom, well, thank God they're not MY problem.

Seriously, this holding of heads and o tempore o mores-ing is more irritating than a wagonful of sexual pseudo-subs. Damn, just broke my own rule.

While you are clearly goading some particular person via some particular thing in ancient lit history, a lot of other people are quite justifiably wondering why anyone feels they have the God given right to yardstick someone else's submissiveness who isn't in the scope of their personal consent. Being one of those difficult sorts who's vaguely bottom/sub in the context of ONE relationship with one person and Domme to the rest of the world, I also have the mind your own fucking beeswax response to an extent and can empathize.

(As if this is inherently a good thing anyway, rather than like debating whether they are REALLY a redhead and getting really really upset if you're a bottle redhead or a brunette or something...)

 

[Evil_Geoff]

George, yes George is a good name.

I like that



FF I am just like everyone else, good bits and bad bits.

Oh, plus some really fantastic bits
lol

Can I play with the naughty bits? ? ?

 

[Quint]

.............

 

[A Desert Rose]

Topping from the bottom is a valid discussion.

I wouldn't have approached it from this direction, however. I think Ish, that's what's put people off the discussion.

Your example has no context to most posters here now. And you've made it personal. Not to mention that because of your vagueness, it's taken most people this many pages to understand where you were going with this. (I only knew because we'd spoken about it. Otherwise, I'd have been in the dark 'til now, too.)

 

[RJMasters]

I may be wrong but I believe what Ishmael is refering to is how manipulation of the whole community is taking place and the effects that it has had over a long period of time. And how that might relate to the systemic consequences individuals end up facing as a result.

If I am not mistaken, Noir made a post simillar not to long ago.

I have heard all the arguments which are attempts to explain or justify it all. And I honestly do not have any answers to some of them, especially in regards to personal freedom and such... perhaps there aren't any... its just the way it is.

But clearly the only villan left is the one who dares to point out the king has no clothes.

 

[Netzach]

I may be wrong but I believe what Ishmael is refering to is how manipulation of the whole community is taking place and the effects that it has had over a long period of time. And how that might relate to the systemic consequences individuals end up facing as a result.

If I am not mistaken, Noir made a post simillar not to long ago.

I have heard all the arguments which are attempts to explain or justify it all. And I honestly do not have any answers to some of them, especially in regards to personal freedom and such... perhaps there aren't any... its just the way it is.

But clearly the only villan left is the one who dares to point out the king has no clothes.

No, Noir did not make a similar post because Noir was not doing some weasely calling out without calling out circular dance, he was saying "this is the bullshit I see across the board" not "ew ew ew did you see what *X* did? Let the shame begin."


What community? Lit? Leather? What's being usurped here? I ask this because honestly, I've never come across a bunch of pervs without subterfuge, the good the bad and the ugly. Do we really have to remind ourselves, like newbies, that not everyone in the scene who professes to have your best interests at heart actually does?

I submit ha ha that one can only be manipulated to the degree they allow it to happen after a point. Have people tried to top me from below? Yes, with different measures of success and failure. Live learn dust off, and move on.

If the threat is "you're turning off the people who you are trying to convince you are submissive" is being thrown out, then there's a nice scalding flipside.

Whining doesn't scream "Dom".

Topping from the bottom IS a vailid discussion and a valid complaint. Assuming that you are talking about a 1. Top 2. bottom 3. within the scope of a consentual interaction based on a mutual dynamic.

If Mistress Godiva is pissed that my behavior isn't proper, but I haven't agreed to be in any kind of a submissive position to her, how do I not get to tell her to stuff it?

If she doesn't like how I'm dealing with my top, then tell my top, not me. That's the protocol behind this stuff, for what little that's worth. It's not your job to chastise someone else's property unless the owner has invited you to do that, no matter how little respect you may have for the dynamic of that owner and that property.

Who'd have thought the answer was in protocol?

 

[RJMasters]

No, Noir did not make a similar post because Noir was not doing some weasely calling out without calling out circular dance, he was saying "this is the bullshit I see across the board" not "ew ew ew did you see what *X* did? Let the shame begin."


I submit ha ha that one can only be manipulated to the degree they allow it to happen after a point. Have people tried to top me from below? Yes, with different measures of success and failure. Live learn dust off, and move on.

So if you had to break down what Noir said in his post and summarize it, what exactly was he saying?

From my pov, I summarize what he said in four points...

- there are a lot of people who say they are submissive but their actions tell a different story
- there are a lot of people who are saying they are dominant but their actions tell a different story
- Anyone who speaks up about it or says the king has no clothes get attacked.
- I need to take a break because I am sick of tolerating the BS.

I think that is a fair break down of what Noir said.

I think what is simillar in what Ishmael is saying are the first two things that Noir said. I might agree with you that trying to hold an intellectual discussion that has personal overtones may not be the best method and in some ways may comprimise the credibility of holding such a discussion, but it doesn't negate the validity of what's being raised.

Does Ishmael have a right to bring up a bad personal experience where he got involved with a person who made the claim they were submissive, but as it turned out they were not. Does he further have the right to use that as a springboard to highlight a much bigger problem that he sees? Heck we get 5 or 6 threads started here a week from submissives who bring up a bad personal experience with a dom and it always is used as a spring board to point to bigger problems and such.

I am not saying that I disagree with your advice Netzach about dusting off your feet and moving on. Infact that is probably the best advice since there will be no resolution or answers. There certainly won't be change. When I say move on, I am not necessarily refering to the past relationship either, as much as I am referring to the issue as a whole.

It is self deceptive for anyone to have an expectation that this community would ever have a unified defintion of what it means to be Dominant or submissive. Further there will be no accountability for the individual or for the community as a whole because there is no standard by which to form a criteria to judge. For some this is seen as a good thing, for others it is the very reason why they tire of the BS and need to take a break or leave.

I haven't joined in this discussion because A. I don't have a personal axe to grind with the people that are involved. yes I do have an opinion, but if that opinion is wanted, they can pm and ask. Since they haven't, I see it as none of my business to express it publicly. and B. if it is about larger issues in the community as a whole, I have been through this argument enough times to realize it is a waste of time and energy.

 

[Ishmael]

Good morning RJ.

Yes, that is the theme from which I'm working.

As far as any personalization. My experience is almost a year old. Nothing recent. Further, I mentioned no names and made a point of generalizing my observation. It has been the works of others to try to make this somehow a personal vendetta. There are a few, at the most, that seem determined to make this personal. And it seems they've been able to sell a few more on that notion as well. Perhaps because their itty bitty minds just can't grasp a larger picture. Or perhaps it's because they can't stand a critical self-examination.

It seems to make no difference at all that I have posts concerning that very subject that long preceed those that are making the most noises registration at Lit. Not being able to tie any of those posts into something 'personal', they fall back on, "It's all ancient history and no longer worthy of discussion."

You are quite correct in pointing out that it is not just the self proclaimed subs that behave contrary to their self bestowed title. And I believe I've acknowledged that point as well.

What those that insist on this being personal seem to miss is the fact that it IS personal. How is it possible to discuss behaviors without those who engage in those behaviors taking it personally? And thus they expose themselves just as surely as if I really were speaking of them by name.

The play never changes, only the names of the actors.

Ishmael

 

[the captians wench]

Okay, this is another thread I've been lurking on and haven't posted cause...well...damn it I'm confused!

When I first started reading this thread it sounded like something some one in one of those "online only" style d/s thingies would talk about. subs making posts on the boards that didn't respond with "sir" or forgive me but rather "Sir" and the whole "typing submissively" role play shite that most of us here have expressed disdane for. I'm a lot more out going and free with the cheek on the boards than I am in my day to day life. And I'm not sure how submissive my posts come across some times, but what the fuck do I care, I'm not going to be domed by the majority of the posters here, and we aren't doing role play, so I don't see how it matters what I come across as.

but I resisted posting and continued reading, and on to the subject of toping from the bottom.

I have seen it in a few of the d/s relationships that I have been exposed to. Some tollerate it, some don't. Personally I have had to bite my tongue a number of times because of a was a submissive was acting I found to be disrespectful in a totally nilla way and had little to do with the fact that she was disrespecting her master. But if he puts up with it, codles it, and it doesn't envolve me, who am I to correct his sub. I may aproach the matter to her directly in a girl to girl mannor, but it is not my place to tell some one else how to live their d/s.

As for how it affects the comunity, I have noticed more and more people playing bed room bdsm coming out and wanting to voice opinions on tpe. Again, if they are happy with leaving thier d/s in the bedroom, who am I to say that's wrong? Do I take offence at some one who is a bedroom sex slave making comparisons to me as a sub? Some times, but I'm sure Cat and serji and a few others take offence to me making comparisons on my life as to theirs, in one form or another. Is it enough to really speak out about? most of the time no. But we have had enough "online vs real bdsm" discussions here to know that everyone's experiences is going to mean most to that person and feel like "real" bdsm to them. And to them it is.

I'm kind of with netz on this one. At one point in my life I defended "online" bdsm was just as valid and real as in the flesh. At another point I was offended that some one who only did cam chat for an hour a night with their online dom would dare compair themselves to me and my nights of crawling on the floor being whipped like a dog. But at this point, I'm kind of of the mind, why should I care if you think your submission is equal/better/less than mine? it really has little effect on how I live my life and how I continue to serve those who earn the tital of Master in my life.