Premises, premises, always premises.

[Evil_Geoff]

*chuckles*

I let the self-identified pyls do pretty much whatever the self-identified pyls want to do. After all, they aren't _MINE_ to control or discipline.

They have not negotiated the surrender of their authority to me, nor have I negotiated my responsibilities to _them_.

So I don't let it bother me. I kick back, relax, and for the most part enjoy the show.

 

[Netzach]

But to berate someone behind their back for not being what you wanted, but being exactly what they said they were is a big red flag to me.



Ishmael

This happened to me in another sexual context from SM. With another woman whose hearing was selective when we were dating and I was explaining myself.

It sucks. I lived. I don't find myself really freaked out that there exist other lesbians out there who might be open to a bi partner who's not going to go exclusive in theory and then balk at the reality. So what?

 

[FurryFury]

I was once involved with a guy that told me all kinds of true things about himself but mixed it with falsehoods. When he said he'd be a horrible husband, I thought he was just being harsh about himself. Boy was he right! I will complain to anybody I wish about him and he about me, or he would if he were alive. Dreams about how a person and your relationship with them might be often hurt more than anything when reality hits. That's a huge loss at times.

 

[Rox_shybutcurious]

Since I’ve been on these boards I have seen over and over again advice to newbies indicating they shouldn’t just jump into being submissive and obedient to every Tom, Dick and Harry that says they’re a Dom. Why should saying no to a task in some miscellaneous Café thread, which by it’s very definition isn’t supposed to be taken as anything but light hearted fun with like minded individuals, be used as an example of inappropriate submissive behavior. Especially when, if I’m reading the situation presented by the OP correctly, subs X, Y, Z don’t directly belong to Doms A, B, C.

Aren’t the definitions of BDSM behaviors, expectations and responsibilities, on both sides of the fence, extremely individualistic? That everybody’s relationship is different and what works for them might not work for somebody else? That we don’t have to compare ourselves to each other on levels of submission or Dominance?

I’ve struggled with this more than once. Several here who’s knowledge and behavior I respect have levels of submission that I don’t think I’ll ever reach. Does that mean I shouldn’t call myself a sub? And how do I identify myself then?

Does this whole thing then boil down to; a person’s considered less of a submissive because another person deems their behavior isn’t submissive enough?

I thought we were working to try and avoid this kind of judgement and labeling within ourselves. Don't we get enough of it from the vanilla world?

 

[Ishmael]

This happened to me in another sexual context from SM. With another woman whose hearing was selective when we were dating and I was explaining myself.

It sucks. I lived. I don't find myself really freaked out that there exist other lesbians out there who might be open to a bi partner who's not going to go exclusive in theory and then balk at the reality. So what?

Good question. Makes no difference at all if you aren't inclined to 'change' or 'cure.'

Ishmael

 

[Ishmael]

Since I’ve been on these boards I have seen over and over again advice to newbies indicating they shouldn’t just jump into being submissive and obedient to every Tom, Dick and Harry that says they’re a Dom. Why should saying no to a task in some miscellaneous Café thread, which by it’s very definition isn’t supposed to be taken as anything but light hearted fun with like minded individuals, be used as an example of inappropriate submissive behavior. Especially when, if I’m reading the situation presented by the OP correctly, subs X, Y, Z don’t directly belong to Doms A, B, C.

Aren’t the definitions of BDSM behaviors, expectations and responsibilities, on both sides of the fence, extremely individualistic? That everybody’s relationship is different and what works for them might not work for somebody else? That we don’t have to compare ourselves to each other on levels of submission or Dominance?

I’ve struggled with this more than once. Several here who’s knowledge and behavior I respect have levels of submission that I don’t think I’ll ever reach. Does that mean I shouldn’t call myself a sub? And how do I identify myself then?

Does this whole thing then boil down to; a person’s considered less of a submissive because another person deems their behavior isn’t submissive enough?

I thought we were working to try and avoid this kind of judgement and labeling within ourselves. Don't we get enough of it from the vanilla world?

Sound advice. But isn't the converse also true? Just because someone labels themselves as a sub should that be taken as gospel?

I see a coin with two sides regarding that.

Ishmael

 

[cookiecat]

Sound advice. But isn't the converse also true? Just because someone labels themselves as a sub should that be taken as gospel?

I see a coin with two sides regarding that.

Ishmael

Is it any different than - prior to meeting me for our first "blind" date - I tell you I'm super hilarious and quite witty. Isn't it up to you to make that determination as you get to know me?

It occurs to me that I'd have to fit your super hilarious and witty criteria for you to agree with my definition of me. Will my submission meet your expectations? As we get to know each other, you'll find out soon enough if super boring and illiterate as well as a pretend submissive who is just lookin' for a spanking and some kinky sex.

I'm more specifically refering to conversations about people that aren't on this board. Gossip if you will.

I can see being disappointed because someone wasn't what you wanted. I can see being irate if they had pretended to be what you wanted, but weren't. But to berate someone behind their back for not being what you wanted, but being exactly what they said they were is a big red flag to me.

It causes me to ponder if the speaker even knows what they want? If they are what they purport to be? And why should I exepct any different treatment from them if I were in the third parties place?

Ishmael

I'm not exactly sure what (or who) you're referring to (if it's someone/thing specific) ... but doesn't this go on all the time??? Sort of buyer beware....

I also think there's a fine line between being a "newbie" - looking for information, being uncertain on how to proceed and being false. It does seem that most here treat newcomers with respect...

 

[Ishmael]

Is it any different than - prior to meeting me for our first "blind" date - I tell you I'm super hilarious and quite witty. Isn't it up to you to make that determination as you get to know me?

It occurs to me that I'd have to fit your super hilarious and witty criteria for you to agree with my definition of me. Will my submission meet your expectations? As we get to know each other, you'll find out soon enough if super boring and illiterate as well as a pretend submissive who is just lookin' for a spanking and some kinky sex.



I'm not exactly sure what (or who) you're referring to (if it's someone/thing specific) ... but doesn't this go on all the time??? Sort of buyer beware....

I also think there's a fine line between being a "newbie" - looking for information, being uncertain on how to proceed and being false. It does seem that most here treat newcomers with respect...

In each case you're thinking of 'here'. And that isn't the case. Generally speaking people that are 'here' aren't so forthcoming with their gossip about others.

Using your expample, I certainly wouldn't be talking about your lack of hilarity here on the board. First of all, that's a subjective decision on my part, and why should I hold you up to ridicule for being what you think you are, but what I think you aren'?

But let's say that you weren't here and someone else met you that is here. And that person formed a subjective opinion about you and aired that opinion, in a belittling manner, here on the board. Do those posts say more about you, or them?

Ishmael

 

[cookiecat]

In each case you're thinking of 'here'. And that isn't the case. Generally speaking people that are 'here' aren't so forthcoming with their gossip about others.

Using your expample, I certainly wouldn't be talking about your lack of hilarity here on the board. First of all, that's a subjective decision on my part, and why should I hold you up to ridicule for being what you think you are, but what I think you aren'?

But let's say that you weren't here and someone else met you that is here. And that person formed a subjective opinion about you and aired that opinion, in a belittling manner, here on the board. Do those posts say more about you, or them?

Ishmael

Gotcha.

If someone met me - and I was in the PG & never here - and they posted something like: cookiecat - boring as dirt - discuss. (and then posted a poll as well....) - mmmm - says more about the poster. Like there's nothing better to do than stir things up.

So a sub hooks up with someone. Dom or not, and is told to do something by that person and the first word is, "No."

I'm not speaking of anything sexual, or dangerous. A small task of little consequence.

What can one take away from that behavior?

Ishmael

This original question has taken a long, twisty road.

 

[Ishmael]

Gotcha.

If someone met me - and I was in the PG & never here - and they posted something like: cookiecat - boring as dirt - discuss. (and then posted a poll as well....) - mmmm - says more about the poster. Like there's nothing better to do than stir things up.



This original question has taken a long, twisty road.

The best meals always come in courses.

Ishmael

PS. I was speaking of people that aren't even on Lit. at all as far as the subject of the gossip was concerned.

 

[Rox_shybutcurious]

Sound advice. But isn't the converse also true? Just because someone labels themselves as a sub should that be taken as gospel?

I see a coin with two sides regarding that.

Ishmael

You’re right, you shouldn’t take a self declared sub at face value any more than a Dom, but don’t you think making an assessment that just because they said no to a task in a Café thread that they’re behavior indicates they’re not submissive enough for them to call themselves a sub is a little extreme? And not only that, but that they’re going to drive away any possible Dom they might be interested in attracting?

 

[Ishmael]

You’re right, you shouldn’t take a self declared sub at face value any more than a Dom, but don’t you think making an assessment that just because they said no to a task in a Café thread that they’re behavior indicates they’re not submissive enough for them to call themselves a sub is a little extreme? And not only that, but that they’re going to drive away any possible Dom they might be interested in attracting?

And I wouldn't bother starting a thread if it were just an isolated incident. Trends establish themselves over time. It's not one person and it's not just one thread or just one post.

This whole thread is based on general observations over time. A LONG time.

Ishmael

 

[FurryFury]

So you feel you've run into a lot of fake Subs and wannabees, I take it?

That's not surprising online. Not to me anyway.

 

[Ishmael]

So you feel you've run into a lot of fake Subs and wannabees, I take it?

That's not surprising online. Not to me anyway.

I didn't specify any number in particular. I suspect there are no more "I top from the bottom" subs on the board than there are wannabe Dom(es).

Don't confuse a general observation with a general indictment.

Ishmael

 

[FurryFury]

I didn't specify any number in particular. I suspect there are no more "I top from the bottom" subs on the board than there are wannabe Dom(es).

Don't confuse a general observation with a general indictment.

Ishmael

Oh I wasn't. In fact, I wasn't thinking you meant this board in particular since in an earlier post you said otherwise.

I'm over the whole topping from the bottom issue anyway. It's a null issue for me now. I did a thread on it when it was a concern.

Ya gotta love those who are always using that is a subs number one sin or the threat of calling you on doing that from their perspective. If I'm happy and my husband and/or Dom are happy, that's all that really matters after all.

Often I think these things come up because people are not that in touch with what they want or need or indeed themselves at all.

Or, they are players, wannabees and so on.

Or, the right questions and understandings are not reached before limits are hit.

BDSM attracts a certain excitement in people. They don't want to stop and think things through carefully, they want to plunge in NOW. Or they think they want to until they slam right up against a wall they didn't know would be there and/or didn't know they had.

It's all perfectly understandable but often frustrating.

 

[shy slave]

Let me clarify in that you have pointed out the flaw(s) in my broad brush there.

On this board I'm not expecting a self described sub to even be civil to a self described Dom(es) not their own. Disagreements occur and humans are human afterall.

I'm more specifically refering to conversations about people that aren't on this board. Gossip if you will.

I can see being disappointed because someone wasn't what you wanted. I can see being irate if they had pretended to be what you wanted, but weren't. But to berate someone behind their back for not being what you wanted, but being exactly what they said they were is a big red flag to me.

It causes me to ponder if the speaker even knows what they want? If they are what they purport to be? And why should I expect any different treatment from them if I were in the third parties place?

There is a graphic example of this behavior in an old thread on this forum. Maybe I'll dig it up soon.

Ishmael

Thank you.
Now I understand what you were talking about.

Of course gossip happens in many contexts, not just on message boards.

The very nature of gossip is a subjective one sided view.

When things go wrong in relationships, friends of the couple hear more than one version of events.

It seems to me that there is panacea in saying subjective things about someone who has not met your expectations.

I am not wary of people who do that, I am wary of those who do not balance it with other comments about that person.
If a person is not perfect for another person, it does not mean they are not perfect for someone else.

No relationship can be so bad that you stay in it if every aspect of that person is terrible.

One of the things I loved about being with Andante, was the warmth and love he had in his voice when he spoke of his wife. He was a widower and it was clear he loved her still.

Andante did post on here, but other people I have spoken of have not.

Maybe I have been lucky, I have never met anyone who has been so bad I could not find a balance between why it has not worked out, and what they are like as a person.

 

[Recidiva]

Thank you.
Now I understand what you were talking about.

Of course gossip happens in many contexts, not just on message boards.

The very nature of gossip is a subjective one sided view.

When things go wrong in relationships, friends of the couple hear more than one version of events.

It seems to me that there is panacea in saying subjective things about someone who has not met your expectations.

I am not wary of people who do that, I am wary of those who do not balance it with other comments about that person.
If a person is not perfect for another person, it does not mean they are not perfect for someone else.

No relationship can be so bad that you stay in it if every aspect of that person is terrible.

One of the things I loved about being with Andante, was the warmth and love he had in his voice when he spoke of his wife. He was a widower and it was clear he loved her still.

Andante did post on here, but other people I have spoken of have not.

Maybe I have been lucky, I have never met anyone who has been so bad I could not find a balance between why it has not worked out, and what they are like as a person.

...and that's the moment I fell in love with shy slave.

 

[shy slave]

...and that's the moment I fell in love with shy slave.

Thank you.

I have no idea why my words make you say that, but Thank you

 

[saw_man1]

Thank you.
Now I understand what you were talking about.

Of course gossip happens in many contexts, not just on message boards.

The very nature of gossip is a subjective one sided view.

When things go wrong in relationships, friends of the couple hear more than one version of events.

It seems to me that there is panacea in saying subjective things about someone who has not met your expectations.

I am not wary of people who do that, I am wary of those who do not balance it with other comments about that person.
If a person is not perfect for another person, it does not mean they are not perfect for someone else.

No relationship can be so bad that you stay in it if every aspect of that person is terrible.

One of the things I loved about being with Andante, was the warmth and love he had in his voice when he spoke of his wife. He was a widower and it was clear he loved her still.

Andante did post on here, but other people I have spoken of have not.

Maybe I have been lucky, I have never met anyone who has been so bad I could not find a balance between why it has not worked out, and what they are like as a person.

********

 

[Recidiva]

Thank you.

I have no idea why my words make you say that, but Thank you

Well, mostly because you just took the ugly concept of gossip, widened the field, made it human and understandable and forgivable, and just made my Universe a better place because of it. In short, put into clearer words a concept that hadn't fully clarified itself in my own head.

I'm yoinking your thoughts, hugging them and kissing them, and calling them George.

 

[shy slave]

There are times such as this when I realize all over again just how special and unique you are.

I am a little overwhelmed by you both saying such nice things.

Sawman - you know I think you are a wonderful person whom I have high regard for.
Thank you

 

[FurryFury]

Thank you.
Now I understand what you were talking about.

Of course gossip happens in many contexts, not just on message boards.

The very nature of gossip is a subjective one sided view.

When things go wrong in relationships, friends of the couple hear more than one version of events.

It seems to me that there is panacea in saying subjective things about someone who has not met your expectations.

I am not wary of people who do that, I am wary of those who do not balance it with other comments about that person.
If a person is not perfect for another person, it does not mean they are not perfect for someone else.

No relationship can be so bad that you stay in it if every aspect of that person is terrible.

One of the things I loved about being with Andante, was the warmth and love he had in his voice when he spoke of his wife. He was a widower and it was clear he loved her still.

Andante did post on here, but other people I have spoken of have not.

Maybe I have been lucky, I have never met anyone who has been so bad I could not find a balance between why it has not worked out, and what they are like as a person.

Seriously Shy Slave,

I read this and thought, you are such a good person! So much better than I am! What a great way to look at things.

 

[shy slave]

Well, mostly because you just took the ugly concept of gossip, widened the field, made it human and understandable and forgivable, and just made my Universe a better place because of it. In short, put into clearer words a concept that hadn't fully clarified itself in my own head.

I'm yoinking your thoughts, hugging them and kissing them, and calling them George.

George, yes George is a good name.

I like that



FF I am just like everyone else, good bits and bad bits.

Oh, plus some really fantastic bits
lol

 

[Recidiva]

George, yes George is a good name.

I like that



FF I am just like everyone else, good bits and bad bits.

Oh, plus some really fantastic bits
lol

Yes, and when your bad bits come to play I'll smack you around and stuff. One bit at a time.

 

[shy slave]

Yes, and when your bad bits come to play I'll smack you around and stuff. One bit at a time.

Ohhhhh

I like you

*grins*