Punching, kicking, etc. in D/s...

[rosco rathbone]

Re: Touchy subject

Your deification of men is kind of ... well i am not sure what it is to be honest. Yes, it borders on worship to my way of thinking, but not all men are made to be worshipped. i do understand about your submission and how it permeates all aspects of your existence ... that's all good and i don't see anything wrong with that as well. As long as it is satisfactory to you and your Master.

I don't know exactly what to make of her "deification" of men either; but I like it. It give me a warm fuzzy.

 

[ownedsubgal]

Re: Re: Touchy subject

I don't know exactly what to make of her "deification" of men either; but I like it. It give me a warm fuzzy.

 

[ownedsubgal]

Re: Touchy subject

i am going to try and comment without belittling osg and her Masters way of conducting their relationship.

i am not a huge advocate of play that involves the possibilty of permanent damage whether that may be physical or mental.

>>understood, and i would say that i am not an "advocate" of such play either. i would never encourage anyone else to do anything like this. but i wouldn't assume something negative about them or their relationship if that is what they wished to do/did. also i'll repeat that this is not simply a part of "play" for my Master and i. nor is it simply about punishment...come to think of it, when i am physically punished it's usually with a belt or paddle, and sometimes with his open hand spanking my bum...very rarely has he punched me during a punishment, and never has he kicked me during a punishment.

i think the idea of being punched/kicked or punching/kicking during a scene makes us uneasy as it does not give the appearance of being a controlled environment. That kind of activity is so often associated with abuse, it makes us cringe when we see/hear about it in the BDSM world.

>>this brings up another thing...my Master and i do not "scene". when i hear that word, i think of scenes in a play...this organized, planned out show, an acting out of roles. we don't scene; we live.
also i am well aware that many/most in the D/s and bdsm worlds shun these activities because in the vanilla world, they are associated with abuse.

As it should.

The are quite a few predators that creep in and out of the lifestyle looking to exert a little abuse of their own. i am NOT describing osg's Master, so let me make that perfectly clear.

>>if punching and kicking "should" make us cringe when we hear about them, because of the many predators in the lifestyle, then why shouldn't canings, and whippings, and electro shock activities make us cringe as well? all have the potential for just as much harm.

My point.

There are so many levels within each of us when it comes to pain play. The punching/kicking just happens to be osg's. Sure, it is a little outside what i am comfortable with, but i can't disregard it because it makes me uncomfortable.

>>for me, this is not "pain play". i am not a pain slut...i do not find sexual arousal of any kind from pain. i crave pain, need pain, yes, definitely. but i do not "get off" from it. it is not a sexual thing for me. it is a psychological need more than anything else. it's fulfilling in a way i can't really describe.

osg - i am sorry, but i don't necessarily agree with all that you said regarding "the natural order" of things. Oh heck yes, men traditionally are stronger than women and when they exert that strength in a physical way, it makes me weak kneed. However, to my way of thinking, men aren't always stronger and not necessarily willing to show that kind of physical power.


i am 5'4" and weighed in at 114 this morning. It is likely that many men could overpower me. However, if i were 5'10 and weighed in at 140lbs and was in great physical shape, i am sure i could give a man a run for his money.

>>"a" man, certainly. but most men? no. were the world's strongest woman to fight the world's strongest man, there would be no competition...the man would win. my Master's first submissive (she never became his slave) was a professional bodybuilder, as he was at the time. she would have made venus and serena williams look like 90 pound weaklings....many men she could have beaten to a pulp if she wished. but she was no match for my Master, or any significantly strong man. it's the law of nature that men are built with that strength...they are made to be hunters, fighters, protectors, etc.

Your deification of men is kind of ... well i am not sure what it is to be honest. Yes, it borders on worship to my way of thinking, but not all men are made to be worshipped. i do understand about your submission and how it permeates all aspects of your existence ... that's all good and i don't see anything wrong with that as well. As long as it is satisfactory to you and your Master.

>>i definitely don't revere men as anything godlike, with the sole exception of my Master. i adore men, i love men, but i don't think them higher beings.

i think i will just hush up now and say be careful to monitor your physical condition after a session like this and i wish you the best.

lara

and i wish all the best as well lara.

 

[ownedsubgal]

I'm curious, what culture or time period are you thinking of when you refer to this as traditional and old-fashioned? I know there have been times throughout history and places around the world where what you describe was/is the norm, but what specifically are you thinking of with this? I'm just curious which culture or era you're making a reference to.

i wasn't making a reference to any particular culture or era...i'm thinking of all times, all over the world. it's only in the western world (and the wannabe western world), in the past couple of generations, that things have shifted to a more "equal" society, where men weren't/aren't naturally looked upon as the more Dominant and powerful.


Francisco, Sir, i agree, "fist fighting" should not be incorporated into bdsm, or into a relationship period imo. there is no fighting in my union with my Master, physical or otherwise.

 

[s'lara]

Re: Re: Touchy subject

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>>understood, and i would say that i am not an "advocate" of such play either. i would never encourage anyone else to do anything like this. but i wouldn't assume something negative about them or their relationship if that is what they wished to do/did. also i'll repeat that this is not simply a part of "play" for my Master and i. nor is it simply about punishment...come to think of it, when i am physically punished it's usually with a belt or paddle, and sometimes with his open hand spanking my bum...very rarely has he punched me during a punishment, and never has he kicked me during a punishment.

[lara] - osg, i didn't attach a negative connotation to your way of doing things with your Master. i said was uncomfortable with it. Like i said, i don't disregard this type of "living" as you put it; it just isn't for me. i am not sure where i made the reference to punishment, but thanks for the clarification.

>>this brings up another thing...my Master and i do not "scene". when i hear that word, i think of scenes in a play...this organized, planned out show, an acting out of roles. we don't scene; we live. also i am well aware that many/most in the D/s and bdsm worlds shun these activities because in the vanilla world, they are associated with abuse.

lara - ok, then the use of the word "scene" isn't applicable to you. Substitute it for "live" as it applies. Again, what you do with your Master while "living" is not invalid. It just isn't for me.

>>if punching and kicking "should" make us cringe when we hear about them, because of the many predators in the lifestyle, then why shouldn't canings, and whippings, and electro shock activities make us cringe as well? all have the potential for just as much harm.

lara - Punching and kicking to my way of thinking is objectification in a dangerous format. Yes, caning, whippings and electro shock are just as harmful, but those practices are considered tools of the trade so to speak. We both seem to agree that punching/kicking is eschewed by the BDSM community because of its vanilla associations to abuse. The stigma attached to it was set into motion long ago and i can't rightly bear the burden for its negative implications. Again, what works for you and your Master is what is important in your grand scheme of things. However, it does not work for me.

>>for me, this is not "pain play". i am not a pain slut...i do not find sexual arousal of any kind from pain. i crave pain, need pain, yes, definitely. but i do not "get off" from it. it is not a sexual thing for me. it is a psychological need more than anything else. it's fulfilling in a way i can't really describe.

lara - Enjoying pain does not make one a pain slut. The enjoyment doesn't have to be about orgasm ... it could be as simple as needing to relieve tension through intense sensation. When i used the term "pain play" it was in the general and if the need/acquisition of pain is not defined in a particular setting for you then i understand. Remember, i am not here to lump anyone into a particular role. Don't mistake my comments as a way to compartmentalize you. Wander free in what works for you.

>>"a" man, certainly. but most men? no. were the world's strongest woman to fight the world's strongest man, there would be no competition...the man would win. my Master's first submissive (she never became his slave) was a professional bodybuilder, as he was at the time. she would have made venus and serena williams look like 90 pound weaklings....many men she could have beaten to a pulp if she wished. but she was no match for my Master, or any significantly strong man. it's the law of nature that men are built with that strength...they are made to be hunters, fighters, protectors, etc.

lara - Then i am unsure of what world we live in. Most men are strong and superior in their physical sense? Umm, i don't think that is correct osg. Lots of men are in superb shape, but i cannot accept the idea that most are superior in strength just because they are men. i think you are affording qualities across the board that may not be accurate. It is actually kind of surreal that you think all men, no matter what their physical nature, are stronger and will always be stronger than a woman. i am not arguing whether this is true, just that there is the possibility that a woman might actually be able to overpower a man in her physical sense.

>>i definitely don't revere men as anything godlike, with the sole exception of my Master. i adore men, i love men, but i don't think them higher beings.

lara - The following is your comments from the Face Slapping thread {"if i were to punch someone (giggling at the thought of me punching anyone, lol), they might be a bit annoyed, but they aren't going to be injured. i just don't have that sort of strength. most men do. it is why i so revere men in general....why i feel so humble before them. because i know the power they possess that most do not even think about. for me, it is the natural order of things....i am not simply submissive in my heart and soul, but physically, i am weaker. "}

That sounds a bit like worship to me. But then again, that is my perception and doesn't make it true. *smile*

lara

 

[ownedsubgal]

lara, i did not think you were putting me or my Master down, i know from your postings here that you are not that narrow minded. i simply wanted to make my thoughts/feeling on this clear to you and to all, or at least as clear as i can express. it truly is very difficult to explain this to those who do not live it and need it within.

something i'm well aware of is that many in this lifestyle "scene", and in those scenes they may do certain physical things for the purpose of the sexual pleasure and/or arousal of one or all involved. paddling a submissive's bum until she cums for instance. such things, just are not a part of my life with my Master. so, i wanted to make clear than punching/kicking, for us anyway, does not fall along those lines. it's not a turn-on thing or a kink thing.
my Master beats me in that way because he needs to beat me, and i appreciate it as much as i do because i need it, too.

also, never did i say or imply that i feel "all" men are stronger than all women. as i stated and you quoted, my Master's first sub was a very physically strong woman who could have subdued many men with her physical power. but i do believe that most men are indeed physically stronger than most women. this is not a statement of worship but more a statement of reality/fact. men are built to have more muscle, women are built to have more fat. the additional muscle makes a man of the same size, and many smaller, stronger than a woman. and no i don't think that all or even most men wish to go around exerting their physical dominance over others, particularly women. but most could if it was in their nature to do so and if they wished to do so. of course, in our world of big macs and 2 cars per person, who knows how much longer this will be the case.

i worship no man but my Master. i have a certain respect, for lack of a better word, for men in general, that i do not have for women. i do not view men and women the same. i don't consider myself equal to a man. but that does not mean i worship men or consider them godlike. i just acknowledge the differences, and find comfort in them.

 

[Daedalus77]

Let's face it 95% of the world does not consider what we do as "safe and sane".

D.

 

[ownedsubgal]

Let's face it 95% of the world does not consider what we do as "safe and sane".

D.

not a religious gal...but, "amen".

 

[~ Emmeline ~]

i guess that depends on what you consider to be the main event.

for me the thrill in all of this is being overtaken/overpowered by someone purely masculine, and physically superior. after a good beating, where i've been punched all over, then kicked in the groin a few times for good measure, on my knees on the floor, looking up at him and all that ready muscle looking down on me...just makes me feel so ULTRA feminine. old fashioned, and even primal, i know, but that's the vibe we put off.

Ties...it's true there are bodily risks to punching, even when one is careful and knowledgeable, but that is the case with everything in this lifestyle. and for me, part of the thrill. i confessed to my Master recently that i felt he was punching me too lightly/gently...being too careful...i told him i really wanted him to HURT me...even if something severe happened, that would be fine with me and i'd view my injury as a beautiful symbol of our love and his ownership of me...he was surprised and touched at my confession, and told me that he had been purposely holding back for fear of harming me emotionally.....but that is no longer a worry now....and i am getting my hard, heavy out and out beatings i crave so much.


So, you are pushing him to hurt you harder, in the name of love... and, so you can 'feel' your femininity in a primal way that you desire. First of all, isn't that topping from the bottom? You're a slave?

What fuels your desire to be HURT so much, and crave beatings? I'm just trying to understand.

 

[ownedsubgal]

Emmeline, if i were to "push" my Master to do anything, yes that would indeed be topping from the bottom. but i push him to do nothing. i only tell him how i feel, in the appropriate manner, at the appropriate times. revealing my feelings to him doesn't mean that i will get what i want (or not get what i don't want), our relationship doesn't work that way. also much of my need for more intense beatings came from the sense i got while he was beating me that he was holding back...i could clearly read a conflict of emotions in his eyes. we've been together long enough and love each other so deeply that one can often tell what the other is thinking and feeling. so i decided to go ahead and reveal my needs/desires to Daddy concerning this, so that at the very least he wouldn't feel as if he were alone in this. He followed my confession with a similar confession of his own, so for us it was a happy thing.

as to what fuels my desire/need to be hurt so much, i tried to explain that as best i could earlier. yes, it makes me feel my femininity to the nth degree (because it shows me just how weak and powerless i truly am). yes, it makes me feel my Master's love (as i know for him this is an expression of love). i'm a masochist, but i'm not the typical sort of masochist who finds sexual pleasure/arousal in pain. for me it's a much deeper, much less tangible fulfillment, deep within my very soul.

 

[Ebonyfire]

Let's face it 95% of the world does not consider what we do as "safe and sane".

D.

95% of the world is neither safe nor sane.

 

[lovetoread]

Call me a weakling, but I cant do punches and kicks.

Especially in the stomach area. Tis my weakest part and would probably make it so that I would not be able to do anything after being hit.

 

[LilDallas]

Not I

Punches and Kicks are not permitted, nor ever will be, in any part of our play, but what is OK for me might not be OK for you. I am not going to justify my relationship with you or ask you to justify yours to me. I am just stating that this kind of play is not for us.

**Spank me or get the clothepins out and ooh baby I'm there**

Hope that you get the answers you are looking for.

See Ya,

 

[s'lara]

Call me a weakling, but I cant do punches and kicks.

Especially in the stomach area. Tis my weakest part and would probably make it so that I would not be able to do anything after being hit.

Love, deciding you have limits that do not match or exceed someone else's limits in no way makes you a weakling. Just a different person with different needs.

It seems many lean away from this edgy kind of "living." The majority don't venture there because of health/safety reasons. As others have expressed before, it isn't meant for everyone, but at as long as the kink practitioners are risk aware, then happy punching. Just be safe (as possible) and expect a few reactions from those not accustomed to hearing/seeing this degree of ... well, i guess living.

lara

 

[ownedsubgal]

"The majority don't venture there because of health/safety reasons."

i disagree with this, because i don't think this is a lifestyle of people who as a general rule steer clear of something because it's not "safe" or "healthy". i think that most in the D/s and bdsm lifestyles don't do the punching/kicking thing because of how those things are typically used in relationships in the vanilla world...a vanilla man punches his vanilla gf/wife/mate, and automatically anyone happening to look on will think abuse! and be horrified. we're conditioned to view those things as either abuse or some sort of self defense, not as a way of loving interaction in a serious relationship. Dominants and Tops don't generally wish to be thought of as batterers. so i think it's a matter of social perception more than anything else.

 

[s'lara]

"The majority don't venture there because of health/safety reasons."

i disagree with this, because i don't think this is a lifestyle of people who as a general rule steer clear of something because it's not "safe" or "healthy". i think that most in the D/s and bdsm lifestyles don't do the punching/kicking thing because of how those things are typically used in relationships in the vanilla world...a vanilla man punches his vanilla gf/wife/mate, and automatically anyone happening to look on will think abuse! and be horrified. we're conditioned to view those things as either abuse or some sort of self defense, not as a way of loving interaction in a serious relationship. Dominants and Tops don't generally wish to be thought of as batterers. so i think it's a matter of social perception more than anything else.

This has been discussed into the ground i think and after reading through the responses here, the majority seemed to be of the mind that they would not incorporate punches/kicks in their BDSM relationships due to the health risks. Small comparison group for the whole BDSM culture, but the majority here seem to have concerns about physical safety regarding punches/kicks.

i have said, in the past, that it doesn't make it wrong, just risky healthwise. i never said i thought this kind of interaction can't be done with love. i just don't want this kind of demonstrative love.

And i think you are wrong osg. It IS about risk healthwise. Also, you may be right about the perception of punching/kicking as applied to vanilla relationships. Again, the stigma was placed on that kind of physical interaction long ago. That particular rep carries over into most areas of BDSM which is why we're called kinky for harboring a need for things of a rougher nature.

That aside, the risk of permanent damage (say to the spinal area you mentioned before) is never cool. Disclaimer: i am not saying your Sir will paralyze you eventually, i am saying that risk of real damage, caused by blunt, repeated trauma to bones or organs is always present. If you are aware of the risk, and you both enjoy it, then RACK on sis. i am not trying to talk you out of what you do or feel and i am sure my posts reflect my restraint in that regard.

Good luck to you and Yours.

lara

 

[ownedsubgal]

lara, i don't deny that some stay away from punching/kicking primarily for health reasons...i just don't think that's why the majority in the lifestyle have issue with it. yes, most who've replied here who have been opposed to it have mentioned the potential risk of major bodily injury as being the primary cause, but as you said we're a small group, and i'd add that it's politically correct in the D/s and bdsm worlds to claim opposition to something because it's not "safe", it's cool to be viewed as risk free and safe as humanly possible. although as we both know that's hardly reality, but that's the lifestyle "way" that's currently openly seen as acceptable and right. anywho, i'd also like to add that many in this lifestyle engage in far more "risky" physical activities with no qualms whatsoever and no naysayers breathing down their backs, so i simply point out the one thing that makes punching/kicking and the like so different (the vanilla concept).

but all that's neither here no there. if it's part of your life wonderful, if it's not, wonderful, as long as we don't throw stones at the other side (and i don't think you personally have lara), i say it's all good.

 

[James G 5]

lara, i don't deny that some stay away from punching/kicking primarily for health reasons...i just don't think that's why the majority in the lifestyle have issue with it. yes, most who've replied here who have been opposed to it have mentioned the potential risk of major bodily injury as being the primary cause, but as you said we're a small group, and i'd add that it's politically correct in the D/s and bdsm worlds to claim opposition to something because it's not "safe", it's cool to be viewed as risk free and safe as humanly possible. although as we both know that's hardly reality, but that's the lifestyle "way" that's currently openly seen as acceptable and right. anywho, i'd also like to add that many in this lifestyle engage in far more "risky" physical activities with no qualms whatsoever and no naysayers breathing down their backs, so i simply point out the one thing that makes punching/kicking and the like so different (the vanilla concept).

but all that's neither here no there. if it's part of your life wonderful, if it's not, wonderful, as long as we don't throw stones at the other side (and i don't think you personally have lara), i say it's all good.

I think a lot of it comes down to "acceptable risk"
I skydive
I also do fire play and cutting
All have pretty heavy risks
But there's a fair degree of safety if you're careful and I find the risks acceptable
With the exception of breath play, kicking and punching is perhaps one of the most dangerous forms of play we can engage in
I've had YEARS or martial arts, and I know how easy it is to hurt someone without meaning to. We had a woman DIE from one wild blow here in Orlando in a "Foxy Boxing" match a few weeks ago
There's very little margin of safety when it comes to striking someone in a way that's usually intended to do lasting harm
So I don't think it's about political correctness so much as realizing that to most that level of risk is unnaceptable, and therefore "wrong"
My personal code is "An it harm none, do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law"....harm including ones' self. Consensual BDSM play that does no lasting harm fits. "Play" that carries a HUGE risk of permanent harm isn't. Does that mean I am going to condemn you or tell you to stop? No. But I will still express my opinion that it's wrong

 

[ownedsubgal]

"I think a lot of it comes down to "acceptable risk"
I skydive
I also do fire play and cutting"

fire play (that involves burning) and cutting (actually intentionally drawing blood)? those are two things my Master would most likely never do to me...because for him, the risks would be too great. but of course, he has a lot more experience beating people up than he does with burning or cutting people. He's not certain that he could do it carefully enough for his tastes, so, he doesn't do it. beyond that, he prefers things that involve him actually touching me, me being hurt by his hands or body, and his strength and power, as opposed to some tool or object doing most of the work. it gives him a release like no other. and being a release for him, makes me feel quite good.

yes, accidents can happen with any activity, regardless of the Dominant's experience level. tis just a fact of life. i don't think the risks involved with punching and kicking are any greater than the risks involved with cutting, when both are done by people of equal experience and knowledge levels. i'm sure you wouldn't slice a woman's juggular (sp?), and Daddy would likewise never punch me in a place or with a force that could very possibly cause my death. but something many either forget or just simply refuse to acknowledge, i am a slave, and as a slave it's my Master's right to do what he wills with me. He doesn't HAVE to be careful or take any precautions at all, he just does because he wants me intact. but i am his property to use as he wills and there are no limits to what a person can do with something they own. also i'll say again that this is not "play" for us, it's not about sex or fun, it's just how we live.


i am hard pressed to find any activity to be universally "wrong"...if those involved are happy in the situation, what is wrong about it?? if fulfills the needs of my Master, it fulfills my needs. for us, that makes it very, very "right".

 

[James G 5]

i am hard pressed to find any activity to be universally "wrong"...if those involved are happy in the situation, what is wrong about it??

Children are sometimes "happy" with those who molest them, leaving both parties feeling fulfilled
Is that OK?

 

[ownedsubgal]

a child is never, ever "happy" when someone "molests" them. molestation is abuse, and i define abuse not by actions but by the intent behind the actions and how they make someone feel. therefore, one can't feel "good" about being abused...it is not going to make them "happy". if they are "happy", truly happy, then it's not a case of abuse. that's all i am permitted to say on that subject.

 

[James G 5]

a child is never, ever "happy" when someone "molests" them. molestation is abuse, and i define abuse not by actions but by the intent behind the actions and how they make someone feel. therefore, one can't feel "good" about being abused...it is not going to make them "happy". if they are "happy", truly happy, then it's not a case of abuse. that's all i am permitted to say on that subject.

So if there is no harmful intent and the child feels ok, it's ok?

 

[NemoAlia]

Children are sometimes "happy" with those who molest them, leaving both parties feeling fulfilled
Is that OK?

Hm, James, I'm not sure it's the best rheotrical tactic for BDSMers to compare subs to children. Do we really want the same standards to apply to us as apply to them?

 

[catalina_francisco]

Children are sometimes "happy" with those who molest them, leaving both parties feeling fulfilled
Is that OK?

Children are human beings, but have not lived their life to adulthood, therefore do not have a maturity to deal with the abuse and whether or not it is right/wrong or appropriate for them. True, some of the suffering which comes from such incidents, are reflective of the morals and judgements we are raised on and society adheres too, but it is still a situation which involves two people (or more) who are through age alone at varying stages on life's hieracrchial scale (power over issue), and therefore it does not make a suitable comparison on which to judge this situation in discussion.

In a D/s relationship, it is hoped both participants are adults who are in a position to make a healthy decision which is right for them. As has been acknowledged, most of us do not reflect each other down to the last detail, and what you do, I might not, and vice versa, but I have to respect your right to have made that informed choice based on your own needs and those of your partner.

While I may be concerned, and maybe to the point of asking or mentioning the risks as I see it (and I have done this before), I have to trust you have made the choice knowledgeably if that is what you tell me. It does not make my point to continue to judge and challenge. I would prefer to know that at least if the other person ever did get into trouble in any way, they knew they would be able to talk to me and not be told 'I told you so'. If they were not here to do that I would be saddened, but it is still their right to make that decision and from what osg says, I gather she is prepared to risk that of her own volition.

C

 

[James G 5]

children

people, to clarify, I am not compring subs to kids or saying it's ok to be with kids sexually
if you read the last part of ownedsubgal's post that I was responding to she said :
"i am hard pressed to find any activity to be universally "wrong"...if those involved are happy in the situation, what is wrong about it??"
So I was responding with comments about an activity that IS generally universally considered wrong to provoke a response

I am a sick freak but not sick like THAT
Strictly consensual adults here, thanks