Punishment

[the captians wench]

CW,

I think I know what you mean.

Just knowing that someone is mad or hurt by a mistake I made is punishment in itself. It depresses the hell out of me to let someone down in any way.

Fury

That's exactly it.

The worst punishment I can get is him acknowledging that I have disapointed him. He knows this, and i think the physical things he adds are just for his own since of closure and maybe even pentence in a way. I can usually judge how upset he really is by how he acknowledges his disapointment. This last time I was punished he shocked me a bit. I didn't really think that this particular crime was so bad. Yes I admit it was something I knew I shouldn't have done when I did it, but I didn't think it was really a big deal. Durring the corse of the conversation I said "I hate disapointing you" and he replied "I hate it too". This let me know how important this particular rule is to him, and also made me hurt all that much more realizing how disapointed he really was.

One little fraze can really shatter my world "you have really disapointed me"

 

[FurryFury]

Yeah that's a killer. I'd rather them rage.

Fury

 

[serijules]

Personal pet peeve... masochists enjoy pain; however, not all submissives are masochistic. Therefore, the blanket statement that "Subs LIKE it [beating] too much" is inaccurate.

Thank you for saying that...I was thinking it too. Even if a sub IS masochistic, I don't understand why people assume a masochist likes all pain. Not all pain is created equal. I like pain....I don't like pain that is a result of disappointment and it is always undesirable and unenjoyable when the pain is combined with that disappointment.

 

[toymaster]

I'm not into the whole concept of punishment.

Fury

Punishment? I have time to waste punishing a slave? I don't think so. Now, time to indulge my sadistic pleasures, that's quite another thing. But punishment no; it achieves little except my exasperation.

 

[BedtimeStories77]

My two cents...

If a masochist, the worst punishment is to not be touched! Absolutely dreadful! But, while I've been known to be slightly bratty at times, or to test patience, I've never done anything to need punishment. I hope I never have to experience it!

 

[Netzach]

Careful, the pc police will take you to court for abuse.You're straying into pc territory again darlin'. i'll buy time out for the price of a vowel on this wheel of fortune.

Haha, well I'm a union badass, we have limits on this kind of thing you know, till you have to start paying way more for it. There's also a lot of overlap between "lazy and particular" and "PC" much to my chagrin, in this case.

Maybe being a pro has forever broken the part of me that really dug weird psychodramatic games in the instance when "hey, this is what I want" would do fine from other grown adults.

And I agree with a lot of the other comments about masochists and ways to make pain un-fun. There's always a way, there's always one particular thing they dread or find really horrid. I found that tweezers and body hair is a combo almost everyone hates, I'd never make anyone shave everything altogether just for this fun. Try armpits. Hell for some girly girls not shaving itself is a great punishment. For the hairy dudes, some clamps, weights and some chest hairs will do. I've never had anyone beg me to please continue that sweet torment when I stopped it. Not yet.

 

[Netzach]

That's exactly it.

The worst punishment I can get is him acknowledging that I have disapointed him. He knows this, and i think the physical things he adds are just for his own since of closure and maybe even pentence in a way. I can usually judge how upset he really is by how he acknowledges his disapointment. This last time I was punished he shocked me a bit. I didn't really think that this particular crime was so bad. Yes I admit it was something I knew I shouldn't have done when I did it, but I didn't think it was really a big deal. Durring the corse of the conversation I said "I hate disapointing you" and he replied "I hate it too". This let me know how important this particular rule is to him, and also made me hurt all that much more realizing how disapointed he really was.

One little fraze can really shatter my world "you have really disapointed me"

This is really poignant and nice.

And frankly, this is where it begins and ends for me. Maybe I'm REALLY mean in that I don't think it's up to me to provide the closure for the person who's just ticked me off.

I get to be mad until I'm not. Hopefully they care about me enough not to keep repeating the same thing that made me mad or disappointed.

It actually works pretty well.

 

[the captians wench]

This is really poignant and nice.

And frankly, this is where it begins and ends for me. Maybe I'm REALLY mean in that I don't think it's up to me to provide the closure for the person who's just ticked me off.

I get to be mad until I'm not. Hopefully they care about me enough not to keep repeating the same thing that made me mad or disappointed.

It actually works pretty well.

I don't think it's really mean, but that's me. Some people need that bit of physical punishment to help them get over doing something wrong. Me I just need some sort of acknowledgement that what I did is not acceptable, even if it's just a look. Okay, that was wrong, don't do it again.

There is one thing that I did ask for physical consiquences for, and that's my bad eating habbits. But seeing as I know he doesn't really care much about what I eat, eating something that I know is bad for me won't really dissapoint him, so there had to be something more, since my normal deturant would not exist in this case. And again, one time of breaking the rule and it hasn't happened again.

I don't like the feeling of him being disapointed in me, so I don't give him reason to be.

 

[Kailey_86]

A lot of people are saying that they will "correct" instead of "punish." IMO, "punishment" is a way to "correct" misbehavior. To me there is no difference between the two. Am i missing something here?

 

[BedtimeStories77]

A lot of people are saying that they will "correct" instead of "punish." IMO, "punishment" is a way to "correct" misbehavior. To me there is no difference between the two. Am i missing something here?

Yes. Namely, it depends on what you consider to be "punishment". As I said in a previous post, for a masochist there is no worse punishment than to be left alone. IE: not touched. In that sense, "punishment" and "correction" would be one in the same.

But, it's my opinion that many people who play D/s online ( ) think "being punished" is spanking, hair pulling, whipping, and so on... They think if they're a brat or disobedient on purpose they'll receive those things (most often things they're craving).

Just goes to show that those who think D/s is a game have no idea what they're doing!

 

[the captians wench]

A lot of people are saying that they will "correct" instead of "punish." IMO, "punishment" is a way to "correct" misbehavior. To me there is no difference between the two. Am i missing something here?

I think punishment tends to lead one to think of physical things, ie spanking, where as correction tends to make one think of a more....adult (?)way of handling things.

When some one says punishment, I think a lot of people think of a situation between a parent and child. The child is repremanded and then made to serve out a physical dutie (whether that's spanking, time out, whatever).

Correction makes me think more of just the first part of that action. The behavior is acknowledged and it is made clear it will be unacceptable and then things move on.

Think of the differnce between how a parent reacts to you when you do something wrong, and how your boss reacts.

 

[the captians wench]

Yes. Namely, it depends on what you consider to be "punishment". As I said in a previous post, for a masochist there is no worse punishment than to be left alone. IE: not touched. In that sense, "punishment" and "correction" would be one in the same.

But, it's my opinion that many people who play D/s online ( ) think "being punished" is spanking, hair pulling, whipping, and so on... They think if they're a brat or disobedient on purpose they'll receive those things (most often things they're craving).

Just goes to show that those who think D/s is a game have no idea what they're doing!

I think that's a rather harsh judgement.

I know subs who act out to get spanking. They will annoy you to the point you just want to beat them with in two inches of their life. And why do they continue this behavior? because they get what they are after, a beating. These subs are in real world relationships with their doms and i have been in their home or at a party or something and watched this behaviour. I really think online has very little to do with it. The fact is they are rewarded for a behaviour that is not nessisarily a desireable one, and so they continue. This is just as true for those who are online as those who are off.

I will admit that there are people who play d/s, but I personally think there is just as many who play online as off, it's just easier to see sometimes in the online since.

 

[MelancholyBaby]

A lot of people are saying that they will "correct" instead of "punish." IMO, "punishment" is a way to "correct" misbehavior. To me there is no difference between the two. Am i missing something here?

I think a part of it is the feelings people attach to the two words.

"Correction" seems to lend itself more to the improvement of a person; whereas "punishment" seeks to stomp out undesired behavior. Correction seems more gentle to me, but that is just my impression of the words.

Based on what those words mean to me, I think I would be corrected rather than punished, even if they are the exact same things. I personally find them to be very similar.

 

[BedtimeStories77]

I will admit that there are people who play d/s, but I personally think there is just as many who play online as off, it's just easier to see sometimes in the online since.

Oh yes, there are very many people who "test the waters", so to speak, in their real lives and have no clue what they're doing/talking about! I guess I was "harsh" to "attack" online only. There's fakes and pretenders in real life as well.

 

[intothewoods]

all couples punish each other to some extent, although they might not realize it.. for example, many people in relationships withhold love from their partner after a fight.. this is a form of punishment even though it's not spelled out as such.. these kinds of punishments are never fun..

This is such a good point. I'd prefer a clear punishment to passive agressive I'm-not-talking-to-you-but-I-won't-say-why vanilla crap. Er, you know, just generally speaking.

And I'm another person who dreads being told they have disappointed someone. I can listen to someone yell at me all day, but to hear I've disappointed them? Awful.

 

[AngelicAssassin]

A lot of people are saying that they will "correct" instead of "punish." IMO, "punishment" is a way to "correct" misbehavior. To me there is no difference between the two. Am i missing something here?

Yep. A fine line exists between punishment and discipline. Discussed here in detail bordering on abuse in the past. Discipline doesn't necessarily imply the disciplined has acted in a deliberate and unwanted manner. Corrections, not in the penal (pun intended) sense, can be used as a normal part of discipline.

As an example, think of a young athlete learning/participating in a sport. The athlete may have natural gifts, or be a total clod. Training said athlete teaches the body in question how to improve performance, regardless of initial talent. The individual in question normally wants to become better. Continual training/practice/discipline to the sport helps the athlete reach maximum potential. Now think of the naturally gifted athlete that doesn't attend practice, disobeys rules, etc. gets suspended (get your minds out of the gutter QBoU and the rest of you pervs) and/or cut (sigh ... this is just turning into one double entendre after another) "not allowed to participate."

 

[MelancholyBaby]

And why do they continue this behavior? because they get what they are after, a beating.

Exactly. That behavior has been positively reinforced (by the Dominant) and so they continue it. It gets them what they want, why should they stop?

 

[BedtimeStories77]

Exactly. That behavior has been positively reinforced (by the Dominant) and so they continue it. It gets them what they want, why should they stop?

Which is why people (Dom/mes or subs) barely a step above fake or a pretender needs education in BDSM.

 

[FurryFury]

When someone says they are disappointed in you what they usually mean (in my experience anyway,) is that they are angry but refuse to acknowledge that even to themselves.

Fury

 

[FluteMaster]

When someone says they are disappointed in you what they usually mean (in my experience anyway,) is that they are angry but refuse to acknowledge that even to themselves.

Fury

Possibly true.

If I am disappointed, I 'll be specific as to what the thing was that made me feel somewhat let down or undervalued. If I am angry, however, then there is no way anyone will not notice that. <smile>.

But on the more general thing of "punishment", that is more often a way of reinforcing a lesson, and done in a different way to a scene or play. Part of that is being clear as to what is happening and why.

1) Why I am upset etc and what I feel.

2) What my submissive should have done.

3) What "punishment" I am prescribing.

By the end of that little lecture, there sure ain't any fun there!!

 

[AngelicAssassin]

There's always a way, there's always one particular thing they dread or find really horrid. I found that tweezers and body hair is a combo almost everyone hates, I'd never make anyone shave everything altogether just for this fun. I've never had anyone beg me to please continue that sweet torment when I stopped it. Not yet.

Black/White/Orange and Hairy meets and agrees with Black and Scaly yet again.

 

[JMohegan]

To avoid misunderstanding, I'll give a simple example to illustrate my use of various terms in this post.

An Algebra teacher assigns a set of problems for homework.

Julie works hard to complete the assignment, as carefully and accurately as she possibly can. She gets one problem wrong. The teacher explains where and how the error was made so that Julie can avoid making the same mistake in the future. That's correction.

Jane works hard to complete the assignment, as carefully and accurately as she possibly can. She gets many problems wrong. The teacher explains where and how the errors were made and assigns an extra sheet of problems to Jane for practice. That's correction, plus discipline.

Janet completed one problem of the assignment and then decided to spend the evening watching TV instead. She gets detention after school for a solid week. That's punishment.


I have no interest in behavior modification, training in elaborate protocols, or teaching a partner to adopt a particular mindset. Instead, I choose to date women who already possess attitudes and behavioral traits that I find appealing.

I don't believe in punishing someone who is sincerely and earnestly trying to follow my instructions and please me. Since that description applies to every partner I have ever chosen, punishment from me has been extremely rare and in some relationships nonexistent.

Outside the bedroom, I do not punish or discipline. I correct.

Using AA's sports analogy, some of what I do inside the bedroom might be considered correction and discipline. But punishment has never been part of my sex life.

 

[catalina_francisco]

I think once again this is a discussion which always deteriorates into one of semantics. Personally I still hold with the idea that no matter if you want to label what you do or receive as correction or discipline, it still comes under punishment, and from the MW dictionary entries posted below, these are also described with the word punishment. It also mentions under punishment that the method used can be seen as a form of retribution (which I have also included the dictionary meaning of and which also mentions punishment), which in a sense is a form of recompense (also included below). I see no problem with a PYL who feels the need to punish for something that has disappointed, let down, upset, or gone against their rules, even if only to be seen as a means of recompense for what was done or not done...why shouldn't they expect the one who disappointed to pay for what they did? Isn't part of being the Dominant part of the mix mean you have a right to expect things be done how you have ordered or indicated you would prefer, and isn't being a submissive after all just another form of being human which means at some point in time you are not going to be perfect and thus create a point of displeasure by not getting it right 100% of the time? For me, punishment does not preclude that a learning or correctional process cannot be taking place, thus mention of punishment under entries for discipline and correction.


Main Entry: pun·ish·ment
Pronunciation: 'p&-nish-m&nt
Function: noun
1 : the act of punishing
2 a : suffering, pain, or loss that serves as retribution b : a penalty inflicted on an offender through judicial procedure
3 : severe, rough, or disastrous treatment

Main Entry: 1dis·ci·pline
Pronunciation: 'di-s&-pl&n
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French & Latin; Anglo-French, from Latin disciplina teaching, learning, from discipulus pupil
1 : PUNISHMENT
2 obsolete : INSTRUCTION
3 : a field of study
4 : training that corrects, molds, or perfects the mental faculties or moral character
5 a : control gained by enforcing obedience or order b : orderly or prescribed conduct or pattern of behavior c : SELF-CONTROL
6 : a rule or system of rules governing conduct or activity


Main Entry: cor·rec·tion
Pronunciation: k&-'rek-sh&n
Function: noun
1 : the action or an instance of correcting : as a : AMENDMENT, RECTIFICATION b : REBUKE, PUNISHMENT c : a bringing into conformity with a standard d : NEUTRALIZATION, COUNTERACTION <correction of acidity>
2 : a decline in market price or business activity following and counteracting a rise
3 a : something substituted in place of what is wrong <marking corrections on the students' papers> b : a quantity applied by way of correcting (as for adjustment of an instrument)
4 : the treatment and rehabilitation of offenders through a program involving penal custody, parole, and probation; also : the administration of such treatment as a matter of public policy -- usually used in plural

Main Entry: ret·ri·bu·tion
Pronunciation: "re-tr&-'byü-sh&n
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English retribucioun, from Anglo-French, from Late Latin retribution-, retributio, from Latin retribuere to pay back, from re- + tribuere to pay -- more at TRIBUTE
1 : RECOMPENSE, REWARD
2 : the dispensing or receiving of reward or punishment especially in the hereafter
3 : something given or exacted in recompense; especially : PUNISHMENT

Main Entry: 1rec·om·pense
Pronunciation: 're-k&m-"pen(t)s
Function: transitive verb
Inflected Form(s): -pensed; -pens·ing
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French recompenser, from Late Latin recompensare, from Latin re- + compensare to compensate
1 a : to give something to by way of compensation (as for a service rendered or damage incurred) b : to pay for
2 : to return in kind : REQUITE

I know I am not perfect, so I have no problem admitting I have been punished, needed and deserved to be, and likely will be again. He also has no problem warning me punishment will be swift for particular things, and many understood, nor does he have a problem delivering that punishment (and naming it as such) with the intent it will be a lesson to me as well as a way of expressing his displeasure and having me pay for what I have done. He doesn't enjoy it, but nor does he feel the need to dress it up in softer terms and deny it's existence as punishment, not pretend he expects or that I am perfect and thus do not ever require it. Sometimes no matter how much you want to do things to perfection shit happens, and just sometimes that punishment can be a way of helping it not happen again or at least ease the never ending guilt some of us can carry when we know we cannot ever achieve the perfection we would like to with all our hearts.

Catalina

 

[JMohegan]

I think once again this is a discussion which always deteriorates into one of semantics.

Indeed. And the dictionary offers quite a confusing array of choices for interpretation of each word.

In my post above, my use of the word correction matches your definition 1.c. ("the action or an instance of correcting : as a bringing into conformity with a standard").

My use of the word punishment matches your definition 2.b. ("a penalty inflicted on an offender").

My use of the word discipline doesn't really match anything shown on your list of nouns, but it fits with one dictionary definition of the verb, specifically: "to train by instruction and practice."

Isn't part of being the Dominant part of the mix mean you have a right to expect things be done how you have ordered or indicated you would prefer, and isn't being a submissive after all just another form of being human which means at some point in time you are not going to be perfect and thus create a point of displeasure by not getting it right 100% of the time?

Yes, on both counts.

But part of being the Dominant means having the right to decide how to handle those times when the submissive makes a mistake.

To continue my analogy from above, think of my partners as students with a strong aptitude for Algebra and an enduring dedication to performing well in the class.

Under the circumstances (and using the meanings I have just identified), I correct when necessary but do not need to discipline or punish.

Yes, there is judgment in that statement. In my relationships, that judgment is mine to make.

I see no problem with a PYL who feels the need to punish for something that has disappointed, let down, upset, or gone against their rules, even if only to be seen as a means of recompense for what was done or not done...why shouldn't they expect the one who disappointed to pay for what they did?

They have the right to demand recompense, exact penalties, or indeed do anything they want as long as it does not violate the agreed-upon terms of the relationship.

Sometimes no matter how much you want to do things to perfection shit happens, and just sometimes that punishment can be a way of helping it not happen again or at least ease the never ending guilt some of us can carry when we know we cannot ever achieve the perfection we would like to with all our hearts.

I understand that many submissives appreciate the function of punishment in their relationships.

I would be a poor match for this type of person, because I am simply not interested in dealing with mistakes in this way.

 

[catalina_francisco]

Indeed. And the dictionary offers quite a confusing array of choices for interpretation of each word.

Under the circumstances (and using the meanings I have just identified), I correct when necessary but do not need to discipline or punish.

Yes, there is judgment in that statement. In my relationships, that judgment is mine to make.

I actually don't think it is a confusing array unless of course I want to interpret it in my own way which is not included in the choices, and as I am a lover of language and OCD about maintaining some resemblance to the usual recognised meanings, I don't tend to stray from what is commonly understood.

As to correction, you mean that you just tell them they have done wrong and then expect them to not do so again? What if that doesn't work due to other issues which have nothing to do with wilfulness on the part of the submissive, or their trying to override your wishes? What makes that different from just being someone gifted or drawn to being a teacher/instructor?

I guess in part we differ in the need of style, though I always get the impression you feel that subs who do not fit your requirements are because they are less than submissive or just not good enough. For me, if I submitted to someone solely on the basis of because they told me I should do xyz otherwise I wasn't submissive enough, or because they told me they were dominant, I would then be stepping into the territory of submitting to anyone simply because they tell me they are a Dominant. I tend to need a little more than their word for it to see them as Dominant otherwise any arrogant male could and would get my submission, even if he didn't have a brain between his ears, simply because he said I should. Perhaps that is why I never understand those who claim they are so submissive they just submit to anyone...for me that does not prove the PYL is dominant or a Dominant. I actually have to see some proof they can dominate me, not necessarily physically, but at least in some form, same as PYL's have to see some evidence of submission apart from the pyl telling them they are submissive and/or saying they are because they like to do things for their loved one just as many do in vanilla relationships without the label of D/s. BTW, are you closely related to Pure? LOL, I see more and more similarities in style of posts each day the thought crossed my mind!!

Catalina