Question for the author community

[KeithD]

This thread, and the various responses to it, raise another, related issue in my view, which is that the Site has a compelling reason, given all the uncertainty and headache over this issue, to clarify exactly what its rules are and upon whom the burden falls to seek or grant permission. The Site is unfortunately vague on this issue. It seems it respects authors' copyrights, but there are obvious cases where authors/members get away with copyright infringement and the Site does nothing, and this raises questions about what the Site's policy really is.

I don't see the policy problem. Copyright ownership includes translations. If permission wasn't given, I'm sure the site policy would either be to require permission be given, even after it already was done, or the translation would be taken down.

But Laural/Manu can't do anything unless they are informed of the problem. Have they been?

 

[SimonDoom]

I don't see the policy problem. Copyright ownership includes translations. If permission wasn't given, I'm sure the site policy would either be to require permission be given, even after it already was done, or the translation would be taken down.

But Laural/Manu can't do anything unless they are informed of the problem. Have they been?

I've been reading these threads for seven years. It's pretty clear that many, many people, including experienced authors, have no idea what Laurel and Manu's policies are, and they have no idea what copyright law is. it would help for the Site to have a clearer, more specific policy just to head off these disputes and to discourage people from doing things they think are OK because, to their eye, the Site seems to allow them to get away with it.

 

[AwkwardlySet]

You'd think, but no. Translating is a skill that takes practice. As in, years and years of practice. As my translator colleagues say, just knowing two languages doesn't make you a translator anymore than having ten fingers makes you a piano player.

Yeah, but it's actually knowing two languages well and being a writer. That should count for something
But yeah, I never actually tried it and it could be that I have no idea what I am talking about. I'll let you know if I ever delve into something like that

 

[KeithD]

I've been reading these threads for seven years. It's pretty clear that many, many people, including experienced authors, have no idea what Laurel and Manu's policies are, and they have no idea what copyright law is. it would help for the Site to have a clearer, more specific policy just to head off these disputes and to discourage people from doing things they think are OK because, to their eye, the Site seems to allow them to get away with it.

I've been reading these threads for over twice that long. What is absolutely clear with this site and all others is that very few people read the policy statements or FAQs that are posted. They learn by personal experience and/or following discussion on the boards. The biggest issue with Copyright here is the disinformation uninformed posters post about an issue that is purposely fuzzy. (At least in the United States, little more than lip service and purposely fuzzy guidance is paid to literary property rights because the United States wants to have protections internationally but doesn't want to honor them, not least because it can't muster a large enough court system to handle the issue.) Few posters posting here on Copyright understand it, but that doesn't stop them from trying to give guidance, so other posters are confused and misinformed. On top of that it's never been clear that either Laurel or Manu have a good grasp of Copyright themselves. In the early years they let authors here get the false impression that Literotica would go to bat in support of authors having their stories swiped from here and reposted elsewhere. It didn't and it doesn't.

What Luarel and Manu can do is control what happens on the website. They are quick to just delete when controversy over story ownership comes up (sometimes too quick, I think). The answer to this particular issue is to let them know permission wasn't granted to submit a translation of someone else's work. They'll take it down. That may not be stated policy (or there may be policy here not being read), but it's what they'll do.

 

[8letters]

I've been reading these threads for over twice that long. What is absolutely clear with this site and all others is that very few people read the policy statements or FAQs that are posted. They learn by personal experience and/or following discussion on the boards. The biggest issue with Copyright here is the disinformation uninformed posters post about an issue that is purposely fuzzy. (At least in the United States, little more than lip service and purposely fuzzy guidance is paid to literary property rights because the United States wants to have protections internationally but doesn't want to honor them, not least because it can't muster a large enough court system to handle the issue.) Few posters posting here on Copyright understand it, but that doesn't stop them from trying to give guidance, so other posters are confused and misinformed. On top of that it's never been clear that either Laurel or Manu have a good grasp of Copyright themselves. In the early years they let authors here get the false impression that Literotica would go to bat in support of authors having their stories swiped from here and reposted elsewhere. It didn't and it doesn't.

What Luarel and Manu can do is control what happens on the website. They are quick to just delete when controversy over story ownership comes up (sometimes too quick, I think). The answer to this particular issue is to let them know permission wasn't granted to submit a translation of someone else's work. They'll take it down. That may not be stated policy (or there may be policy here not being read), but it's what they'll do.

I agree with most of this. What Manu and Laurel haven't been clear on is what will happen when people submit stories that infringe on the copyright of commercial properties. @EmilyMiller has recently discovered is that everything Jedi (with the exception of Illustrated) goes into CF&F no matter how much the author wants it to go into SF&F. One of the things I've been thinking about writing is an I/T version of the movie "Hansel and Gretel: Witch Hunters". Total copyright infringement. Would it be published in I/T or CF&F? It's not worth my time if it goes into CF&F.

As for infringing on Literotica stories, the policy I have seen is that the site will publish stories that are derivative of other Literotica stories. If the author asserts their copyright, the derivative work comes down. But the author has to assert their copyright. If BrokenSpokes sends a note to Laurel asking that the translations come down, they'll come down. But she has to send a note to Laurel for it to happen.

If you aren't around to assert your copyright then stories that are derivative of one of your stories will be published if submitted and will remain here until you come back.

 

[KeithD]

What Manu and Laurel haven't been clear on is what will happen when people submit stories that infringe on the copyright of commercial properties

I think what is clear is that any question on this on the story side will result in deletion without research on who might be in the right on the issue. But it's their website, so it's their privilege to delete for any reason they want to.

One area that tells me they have little grip on copyright, though, comes more in images. They are letting stolen images being posted left and right here without deleting them. I think most of the avatars are stolen, for instance. There for a while posters were stealing and reposting texts of copyrighted news reports/commentaries, and they weren't being deleted. I don't see that much anymore, but I think it's because the posters who were doing that are now gone.

 

[OffNSFW]

This is just me, but I would reach out to the translator, request that all the appropriate information be added to connect their translated version back to your page, and warn them to ask permission in the future.

On the one hand, we already have to deal enough with the fact that people on the Internet treat any creative work as up for grabs. On the other hand, translations make your stuff more accessible to readers, and translation itself is a lot of work. It might be worth it to allow it to remain online. Something to consider.

 

[BrokenSpokes]

Let's also be clear that, as of now, I'm discussing this as a hypothetical. I have not reached out to the hypothetical author or reported the hypothetical story to admin. I'm just soliciting opinions before I decide what to hypothetically do about this hypothetic situation.

Hypothetically.

 

[ElectricBlue]

Let's also be clear that, as of now, I'm discussing this as a hypothetical. I have not reached out to the hypothetical author or reported the hypothetical story to admin. I'm just soliciting opinions before I decide what to hypothetically do about this hypothetic situation.

Hypothetically.

It's your story, your intellectual property. Protect it. The key thing here, I think, is that your property was taken without permission. That's theft, in any other form, and I can see why you feel violated. You were.

Has the translator said anything to you about it? Being pragmatic, you now have another language version of your story - you don't know how good it is, but it's out there - so assert your rights and insist on an apology, a proper acknowledgment that it's your story, and if you don't get it, report them to Laurel. I think she'd take the stories down, which means the onus goes back to the translator, to put things right.

There might also be an AI issue here too - it's probably a machine translation, which breaches the site's AI policy.

 

[Jalibar62]

Hypothetical for other Lit authors:

You find out that another Lit author, one who has left nice comments on your work, did a complete translation of one of your stories. And posted (so far) six of the eight chapters of your work, in their entirety (but in another language) on their author page.

Say this person acknowledges in the intro that it’s a translation of your work, but they do not link to your original work or your author page.

They did not ask you for permission or tell you they were doing it. Say you found out through other means.

How would you feel? Is translation without permission plagiarism?

Genuinely interested to hear what others think. My knee jerk reaction is that if they’d asked me I probably would have thought it was neat but since they didn’t I feel incredibly violated.

Acknowledging you in the preface is a dubious attempt at following the rules. And doing it without permission is très shady. It's absolutely plagiarism. Or copyright infringement. Whichever, it's not cool.

Sorry you're having to deal with this issue; I guess it's one of the perils of being a very good writer

 

[Voboy]

Let's also be clear that, as of now, I'm discussing this as a hypothetical. I have not reached out to the hypothetical author or reported the hypothetical story to admin. I'm just soliciting opinions before I decide what to hypothetically do about this hypothetic situation.

Hypothetically.

You're certainly getting some, lol.

Make sure you update us. I'm interested now, and I'm sure many others are as well.

 

[Bramblethorn]

I don't see the policy problem. Copyright ownership includes translations. If permission wasn't given, I'm sure the site policy would either be to require permission be given, even after it already was done, or the translation would be taken down.

But Laural/Manu can't do anything unless they are informed of the problem. Have they been?

Time to ping @Laurel into this thread, I guess.

In this particular example, the post stated in the first paragraph that it was a translation of another Literotica author's work. But I don't know who approves the non-English submissions and it may be that their understanding of the rules isn't aligned with L&M's; OTOH, they may simply have mistakenly assumed that the translator had asked for permission.

 

[BrokenSpokes]

I’ve reached out to the translator (not calling them an author at the moment) to see if we can reach an understanding. My plan is that If I don’t get a reply in the next few days or if I don’t get the accommodation I want, I’m going to reach out to Laurel and ask for them to be taken down.

 

[KeithD]

Time to ping @Laurel into this thread, I guess.

In this particular example, the post stated in the first paragraph that it was a translation of another Literotica author's work. But I don't know who approves the non-English submissions and it may be that their understanding of the rules isn't aligned with L&M's; OTOH, they may simply have mistakenly assumed that the translator had asked for permission.

By the last paragraph of the OP, BrokenSpokes pretty much stripped out the tongue-in-cheek "hypothetical" nature of the posting, and subsequent posts have made this quite clear.

 

[intim8]

Translating is a skill that takes practice. As in, years and years of practice. As my translator colleagues say, just knowing two languages doesn't make you a translator anymore than having ten fingers makes you a piano player.

Which brings up the question of how you evaluate them if you're contemplating hiring one.

The only thing I can think of is to get two of them to work on a short piece. Have one translate it into <foreign language>, then the other translate that back into English. If it comes back crap, you know that at least one of them is bad at their job.

 

[KeithD]

Which brings up the question of how you evaluate them if you're contemplating hiring one.

I was in the business of crisis translations of foreign leader speeches and news reports and commentaries. Ours were the official translations to inform U.S. government policy responses.

We handled this by having a staff of expert translators with a senior, more expert staff on top of that reviewing and vetting the translations. The American staffers chose what was to be translated, edited it, and chose how fast it was filed where, but the translations were by two levels of highly trained and paid native speakers in the targeted language and with excellent English on top of that.

 

[StillStunned]

Which brings up the question of how you evaluate them if you're contemplating hiring one.

Check a sample of their work or, if you're not fluent in both languages, have it checked by someone who is. Beyond that it's all word of mouth.

 

[BrokenSpokes]

Update for those interested:

The translator and I have reached a mutually acceptable agreement. He is going to edit the introductions to each chapter to include a statement that I am the copyright holder of the original work as well as the copyright to his translation, and that of any other translations in any other languages, including other German translations. He is also going to include a link to my author page, and has acknowledged to me in email that he is not to translate of my other works without my prior written permission. By doing so, I have agreed not to ask the site admins to take down the six chapters of my work that he has posted (so long as they are edited as agreed) and he may post the final two translated chapters, with the same introduction included.

Obviously I would have preferred to have been approached with the concept prior to execution, but this agreement is acceptable to me. According to the comments on the translations, the stories seem to be finding an audience among German speakers who did not speak English well enough to enjoy them in the original text.

 

[TarnishedPenny]

While perhaps not optimal, it seems to have worked out pretty well. Glad to hear it!

 

[joy_of_cooking]

as well as the copyright to his translation

Whoa that is quite a concession

 

[oneagainst]

Update for those interested:

The translator and I have reached a mutually acceptable agreement. He is going to edit the introductions to each chapter to include a statement that I am the copyright holder of the original work as well as the copyright to his translation, and that of any other translations in any other languages, including other German translations. He is also going to include a link to my author page, and has acknowledged to me in email that he is not to translate of my other works without my prior written permission. By doing so, I have agreed not to ask the site admins to take down the six chapters of my work that he has posted (so long as they are edited as agreed) and he may post the final two translated chapters, with the same introduction included.

Obviously I would have preferred to have been approached with the concept prior to execution, but this agreement is acceptable to me. According to the comments on the translations, the stories seem to be finding an audience among German speakers who did not speak English well enough to enjoy them in the original text.

Did you find out whether it was just naive enthusiasm as a motivation or a knowing contraventionof copyright law?

 

[BrokenSpokes]

It’s seems to be of a case of deciding to ask for forgiveness rather than permission (if caught.)

 

[Bluesea00]

Hypothetical for other Lit authors:

You find out that another Lit author, one who has left nice comments on your work, did a complete translation of one of your stories. And posted (so far) six of the eight chapters of your work, in their entirety (but in another language) on their author page.

Say this person acknowledges in the intro that it’s a translation of your work, but they do not link to your original work or your author page.

They did not ask you for permission or tell you they were doing it. Say you found out through other means.

How would you feel? Is translation without permission plagiarism?

Genuinely interested to hear what others think. My knee jerk reaction is that if they’d asked me I probably would have thought it was neat but since they didn’t I feel incredibly violated.

I certainly would report. They missed three basic steps 1) ask for 2)Link to your work 3)Review the outcome with you before publishing.
However might it be the case that they are a little lost? . This is a huge comunity at the very end.

 

[metroalma]

Despite the work that the other party has done. They are using your work without your permission. They are wrong. You are right to be offended and right to seek to have full control over any translation.

 

[wantingnoregrets]

Hypothetical for other Lit authors:

You find out that another Lit author, one who has left nice comments on your work, did a complete translation of one of your stories. And posted (so far) six of the eight chapters of your work, in their entirety (but in another language) on their author page.

Say this person acknowledges in the intro that it’s a translation of your work, but they do not link to your original work or your author page.

They did not ask you for permission or tell you they were doing it. Say you found out through other means.

How would you feel? Is translation without permission plagiarism?

Genuinely interested to hear what others think. My knee jerk reaction is that if they’d asked me I probably would have thought it was neat but since they didn’t I feel incredibly violated.

I believe in my opinion that they were totally in the wrong. I do not know anything specifically about copyright laws Etc but even if they didn't violate any laws it was still morally and ethically wrong to do so without your permission. Also as someone else mentioned having to change phrasing when translating because it becomes offensive in a different language when in the original language was not meant to be without consultation of the original author to see about making other changes so that do not lose the storyline or feel for the story when making that change in translation. My personal opinion is report them for what they have done with Administration here along with possibly contacting someone about legal recourses, even if you have none at this particular time maybe could learn ways of confidentiality word things at the beginning of every one of your stories to prevent legal issues in the future.