Rape in erotica - women's opinions desired

[Laurel]

Here is the typical sort of quandry I come across.
You are a young guy walking down a dark street. An old woman walks in front of you at a slower rate. She looks over her shoulder at you as you get closer and closer, obviously worried. What do you do. What do you do.

A) maintain you precice pace. slowly, inexorably eating the distance between you, watching her attempt to go a little faster and faster, finally ducking into a pathway she hopes is you will think is the entrance to her house but ironically half the time is yours.

B) slow your pace to precisely match hers, convincing her beyond a shadow of a doubt that you are following her.

C) Make a mad dash to pass her and get it over with.

or D) My favorite. Lie down.

LMAO! I once saw the funniest short film about a guy in this precise situation. He becomes so obsessed with convincing her that he's not stalking her that he ends up stalking her. I wish I could remember the name of it - it's absolutely hysterical...

I found it! Well, part of it anyhow...it's called Stalker Guilt Syndrome. You can view the first two minutes of it here:
http://www.atomfilms.com/default.asp?film_id=174
There's a "preview" button in the left column. The first two minutes don't get into the truly hilarious bit, but you get the idea...if you ever get a chance to see the full version, do it!

 

[Hecate]

Atleast I find psychoanalising my own fantacies very revealing. Some people's stories really give me the creeps.

Geeze - my OWN stories give me the creeps at times, but I refuse to acknowledge that this has anything to say about the "real me". More about my vivid imagination and my talents as a writer, and the fact that I can't pass a "challenge" even if I don't find the subject in the slightest bit appealing (E.g. I still have no clue how to tackle the extreme story for the Lit survivor challenge yet, but I will and it will be a good story and people will think i am that sick person involved).

So I would please ask to not judge any author's personality by the content of his/her stories ...

Ok - that was a little side tracked, right - couldn't hold my big mouth shut again .... *wanders out of thread again*

 

[Guest]

Hecate...

I agree with you completely. It is unfair to judge an author by story content. I write everything from sweet romantic stories to outright rape stories. Not only could a person understand very little about me from reading only one of my stories, I think that someone reading the entirety of my erotica would only get a superficial glimpse of my personality.

I am an exceptionally gentle man, a big softy. Yet, dark dreams and fantasies bubble up from some primitive swamp in the back of my mind. When I begin to give them form, I find that I soon distance myself from the character committing the atrocity. I am oftentimes abhorred by what comes out. Still, there is a visceral and sometimes erotic thrill in being a good person and spending time in the mind of a bad person-- a person who I am utterly not.

I do not know if all male Writers of rape stories write them for the same reason I do. I think some write rape stories because they love the idea of controlling and dominating a woman. I write them because I am fascinated by the idea of what it might be like to be a man who did not choose to restrain himself. The whole "beast within" theory. Yet, ultimately, I could never be that person. I just don't like hurting others, even slightly.

 

[Paolo Labico]

The following is incoherent and will most likely be misunderstood.

I've written a couple of stories in the "nonconsent" category, so I have been forced to think about this topic.

I think there are 2 distict types of rape, though this may make no difference to the woman at the time. Of course there is significant overlap in the motivations for both.

The first type is the way we commonly think of rape today. It's a violent crime, having more to do with hatred and fear of sex than with sexual gratification. This has been discussed at length already.

The second type hinges on the proposition, distasteful as it may seem, that Vaginas are a commodity. If you are online reading this you must know this to be true. Search for anything online and you are never five clicks away from a picture of a nude woman. I believe there are some types of rape that to the offender (not the victim) are more akin to a violent mugging. The theft of a commodity, the violence being a means to an end. For comparison I would compare the rapists in the first type with serial killers- the violent act itself being the goal. The object here is to use the woman, not to hurt her. The problem of course is that a woman is not a wallet full of cash, you can not use them and expect not to hurt them.

I think this second type of rapist is the most insidious. If only because it seems that so many men seem to be capable of doing it in the right situation. Few men will suddenly get the urge to hide in the bushes and drag women into their vans, but a saddly large number would abuse a girl passed out on their couch. There is a catch to how they can do this though: rationalization and/or dehumanization of the victims (any good Nazi, Serbian militiaman, or Hutu could tell you this). In this we as a society are a great help. Men are raised knowing from their mothers that girls who pass out drunk on couches are WHORES, and that all Whores want sex, i.e. are asking for it. Conversely, we tell young girls that they are free to do what they want and if that includes passing out on a couch in a fraternity house so be it. So the girl has unwittingly played right into being dehumanized. This doesn't in anyway excuse the rapist, I never understand how people can twist this arguement into an excuse for rape. You wouldn't excuse a thief because my wallet was exposed with money hanging out.

Of course society is quick to heap on the shame and guilt after she's been raped. Usually chastizing him with a 'boys will be boys' attitude. I believe this societal stygma is what is truly destructive to women. I have had my ass kicked. The feeling of pain and powerlessness and shame is as close as I'll ever come to knowing what a woman feels after a rape. Now imagine that I also had to feel guilty for letting him kick my ass...did I look particulary easy to beat up that day?...could I have fought harder?. On top of that from that day forward I would be "damaged", "unclean" somehow. Everytime I met someone I'd wonder if he knows I'm that pussy who got his ass beat, wonder if he will beat it too. I'd probably never leave the house.

Well there's my thoughts on the topic. I'd like to think if there was a girl passed out on my couch I'd just throw a blanket on her.

 

[vgrey]

Well, somebody finally brought it up!

I do not know if all male Writers of rape stories write them for the same reason I do. I think some write rape stories because they love the idea of controlling and dominating a woman. I write them because I am fascinated by the idea of what it might be like to be a man who did not choose to restrain himself. The whole "beast within" theory.

Well said darkness!
I am also a male who writes non-consent stories and I have to admit that I have spent a lot of time wondering about their source of interest.

There seem to be some separate sub-categories in the non-consent stories that I read here. I guess that I might even be so provocative as to say that a line could be drawn between male and female "rape fantasies" (Thoughts on this? Anyone?)

I don't think that people always realize that in order to create a character with whom readers can identify, it is necessary for a writer to identify with the character as well. Just like an actor preparing to play a role the author has to open themselves up to anything that happens to one of their characters. And when I say characters, I DO NOT mean: "She was 34-26-35 blue-eyed cock tease with blonde hair" (a.k.a. Penthouse Forum material) I am talking about characters with whom a reader can feel some sort of empathy.

To me, it mostly just boils down to empathy.

Scratch that, Power AND Empathy.

When I first started out I was suprised to find that so many women also enjoyed these types of fantasies. Then I took a second look at what I had written and I realized that my central character, (i.e. the one with whom I shared the most empathy as I wrote the story) was the female victim.

That suprised me a bit. To realize that all of the focus had been on her orgasm. Her character was the one that I had developed the most. (It is erotica after all!) I finally understood that my own interest lay in the fact that when the issue of choice was removed, so was all responsibility!

Everyone always assumes that the men that write these stories are living out their fantasy of being utterly primal males, i.e. "beast within". And I would definately agree that is an important element as well. And everyone that reads a story is going to take away something different from the experience, and I do work hard at trying to make my stories appeal to as broad of a range of readers as I can, but:

Nothing ever happens to any of the characters in my stories that I do not allow to happen to myself in my own imagination.

I'm just as enamoured of the almighty orgasm as anyone. It's all about un-complicated, guilt-free sex. Instant gratification. Ripping through all of those civilised inhibitors that we all deal with on a daily basis. But it is all fantasy, both the raping and the being raped. I would no more commit these atrocities that I write about than I would submit to them myself, and I myself fantasize about both situations.

Fantasy has nothing to do with reality. Both serve entirely different functions and in this case are polar opposites.

And Myst I would go you one better (or worse). I honestly believe that I could kill someone that raped me or someone I loved. I'm not sure that I would be strong enough to endure the judicial process. I just hope that I never find out.

VG

 

[sylviarockon]

I'm totally blown away by this thread. So many incredibly well articulated thoughts about this fascinating topic. You have all provoked so many thoughts that I don't know where to start.

The problem of male/female rape fantasies vgrey is that I am a woman and I have written nonconsent stories that certainly don't fit the usual non-consent "ravishment" genre. Actually I find the whole idea of a female victim actually beginning to enjoy the rape and then falling in love with her rapist gross and kind of pat. Not the right word but can't think of a better one at this hour. I'm not into the romance genre and the ravishment nonconsent stories just remind me too much of an erotic romance story with an edge. Not that that doesn't turn some people on and that some of it is extremely well written. It's just my preference. I understand intellectually why it is appealing to some women.

I agree with the ideas raised previously that it may be a forum where women can enjoy the experience of sex in an uninhibited manner because they are being "forced" to. They can identify with the female character who remains passive and so they can do gender appropriately (i.e. playing out an appropriate submissive female role) while at the same time participating in uninhibited, raw sex.

The whole idea of a writer/reader identifying with the rapist as a way of recapturing power fascinates me and this is totally loaded in terms of our culture's gender scripts. A man wanting to identify with the rapist character says one thing while a woman identifying with a rapist character says something else entirely, doesn't it?

Okay, I can begin to understand why I have written the rape stories I have written. The Mountain made a lot of people very unhappy and I have many ambivalent feelings about it myself. Why would I even think to write an erotic story that is so macabre? I could just cop out and say I was exploring "character" and to an certain extent I was exploring character. But I also am fascinated by the possibility that I was identifying with the male rapist characters at certain times as well as the female victimized character. I was vicariously experiencing the power that John had over Sara as I was experiencing the powerlessness that Sara was experiencing. With the other two, particularly Sam, I think I was setting up a particularly vile person for the thrill of the ending. The ending (and I won't give it away hopefully for those who may be inspired to read the story - shameful plugging?) was maybe my way of taking sides and of venting my fury at the injustice of rape and of the rape culture we live in.

Notice I haven't once discussed rape in real life. A completely different issue. I believe no matter how much we justify what we do as nonconsent writers as "just fantasy" or "just fiction" there is a relationship between rape/sexual assault in our personal lives or in society and our writing about it or reading about it as "erotic" fiction. We do not live in our heads. Peterpan is struggling with the way in which our culture portrays men as the sexual agressors that women should be afraid of. The reality is that not all men are sexually aggressive, some men are sexually aggressive, some women are not sexually aggressive and some women are. Both parties are grappling with the gender scripts that don't fit!

Having said that, I'm going to complicate that picture of gender and sexuality as a continuum by saying that it doesn't negate the FACT that men rape women predominantly. Rape is something all men need to think about and be aware of and you are one of the rare few (along with alot of the men who write nonconsent on Lit)who are at least brave enough to think through these issues. Rape occurs so frequently that we would have to say that a huge percentage of men are pathological and that would leave us no space to look at the way our culture creates scripts that condone the idea that women are objects to be used (and I know that this is just one dynamic).

The whole notion of "vagina as commodity" pretty much sums up alot of the problems with our rape culture quite well. It's still about power, not just sex. To want to "use" anyone pretty much signifies that person as an object. An object is not a subject, it is done to and has no agency. The sexual objectification of women's bodies (whether the actual women are willing or not) has consequences and that summary about vagina as commodity pretty much says it all.

I am a survivor of childhood sexual abuse and I participate in activism against all forms of violence against women. I believe that sexual violence is tied into the sexual objectification of women. The reality of rape is horrifying and NEVER NEVER NEVER "enjoyable" for women at any level, whether it is violent stranger rape (very small percentage), rape of a wife by a husband, rape of a girlfriend by a boyfriend. Rape that leaves no physical bruises can scar the soul and problematize sex and sexual relationships forever.

I agree with Mickie who I think said it all brilliantly - maybe it is therapeutic. Maybe all of us (men and women) who write nonconsent and like to read it are trying to find some way to cope with the reality of living in a rape culture.

So just some thoughts. I love this forum. Thank you all for sharing.
Sylvia


[Edited by sylviarockon on 05-09-2001 at 01:22 AM]

 

[Ulyssa]

Blame

The only problem with the theory that Mickie and Sylvia (Jeez. how many of you are old enough to know the significance of that pairing?) anyway the only problem about readin' and writin' to let the rape demons transform into non-violent grazing cattle, is that the world at large doesn't believe in it.

That doesn't make your points any less valid though.
The world also doesn't believe that if Hitler hadn't pushed the Japanese into inventing the SuperNintendo System, then they wouldn't have bombed Pearl Harbor with recordings of Tora Tora Tora, the dance mix.

That said I have to go back to the adult version of Street Jamming with Charles Barkley--the mature rated version (No NC). After all, what's a mature woman to do in an electronic feedback society?

[Edited by Ulyssa on 05-10-2001 at 02:51 AM]

 

[Paolo Labico]

An Observation

When I set out to write my first story Marcus Aurellius, I didn't think of it as a rape story. http://www.literotica.com/stories/showstory.php?id=3500

I actually was a bit surprised to see it in Nonconsent. My intention was to write a story in a believable historical context. That it is in fact a rape story seemed coincidence. But this may not be the case.

This has led me to think about how much of the total reproduction that has occurred in the human species has been the result of nonconsentual sex on the part of women. Obviously there are the women who have been raped as in our society today. Add to this all the women systematicaly raped as a side effect of war (for instance, there were so many russian/german children after the taking of germany that they have a term for them...though it escapes me at the moment.)

Then I think it is appropriate to consider that historically in most cultures the reproductive fate of preadolescent girls was decided by parents or others. This must be considered Nonconsent, especially when there is a huge age disparity. (yes, I know arranged marriages last longer on average)

What I am getting at is that, like it or not, rape is a fundamental part of human experience. I'm sure for every shining instance of pure courtly love there are many more nonconsenting women beneath sweaty, heaving pigs. So if stories are going to be written about human sexuality, that in anyway that reflect reality, a large proportion of them should be Nonconsentual.

As a last note I'd like to add that though we have focussed on women, the rape of men, especially while boys, has also been a constant thread in "civilized" history. Of course its still men doing the raping. (I don't have space here to discuss the biological reasons why that is, but sum it up by saying that men are so hot wired for sex that they'll hump anything that triggers their attraction responce as long as the cost to them, in terms of future life and reproduction, is small)

 

[Ulyssa]

Re: An Observation

When I set out to write my first story Marcus Aurellius, I didn't think of it as a rape story.
I actually was a bit surprised to see it in Nonconsent. My intention was to write a story in a believable historical context. That it is in fact a rape story seemed coincidence.

Maybe Laurel put it in NC because the Believeable Historical Context catagory had met its quota that week.

 

[peterpan]

stalker guilt syndrome

LMAO! I once saw the funniest short film about a guy in this precise situation. He becomes so obsessed with convincing her that he's not stalking her that he ends up stalking her. I wish I could remember the name of it - it's absolutely hysterical...

I found it! Well, part of it anyhow...it's called Stalker Guilt Syndrome. You can view the first two minutes of it here:
http://www.atomfilms.com/default.asp?film_id=174
There's a "preview" button in the left column. The first two minutes don't get into the truly hilarious bit, but you get the idea...if you ever get a chance to see the full version, do it!

Finally viewed it (no sound on my machine unfortunately)
Now see how he could have avoided any missimpression by getting out at the stop then immediately LYING DOWN?

 

[sylviarockon]

Re: An Observation

A contentious point...

What I am getting at is that, like it or not, rape is a fundamental part of human experience. I'm sure for every shining instance of pure courtly love there are many more nonconsenting women beneath sweaty, heaving pigs. So if stories are going to be written about human sexuality, that in anyway that reflect reality, a large proportion of them should be Nonconsentual.

As a last note I'd like to add that though we have focussed on women, the rape of men, especially while boys, has also been a constant thread in "civilized" history. Of course its still men doing the raping. (I don't have space here to discuss the biological reasons why that is, but sum it up by saying that men are so hot wired for sex that they'll hump anything that triggers their attraction responce as long as the cost to them, in terms of future life and reproduction, is small)

I have to totally disagree with you on both points Paolo. My previous diatribe went to great lengths to point out how I think (and alot of other people do too) that rape is a social product - not biological. I think the whole idea that "men are so hot wired for sex that they'll hump anything that triggers their attraction response" is a predominant gender ideology in our culture. We reproduce this idea over and over in most of our cultural products, even in the fundamental structure of traditional marriage, that it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. I'm NOT making an argument here for a simplistic theory of culture influences the unthinking individual therefore we should censor our cultural products.

What I am saying is be careful of biological determinism as an explanation for the "inevitability" of rape. Evidence that it isn't biological is that in many cultures rape does not occur at all, it would be unthinkable.

The idea that biology compels men to rape is repugnant to me because it implies that rape is inevitable, as you seem to argue. The radical feminists out there would absolutely agree with you and would like to shoot all men, or cut their things off. I for one hope to hell it ain't biological or all my activist efforts to make things different are a big fat waste of time.

Also, the idea that men are insatiable sex machines that if pushed will rape women/girls (or in some cases boys), implies that women are pretty much passive, inhibited, and asexual - which does huge harm to women's sexuality and ironically probably accounts for why so many of us women write erotica on this forum - because we can freely express our sexuality without being social sanctioned as "sluts"!

I just want to clarify for Ulyssa what I meant by writing rape erotica might be "therapeutic" for us as writers or readers. I did not mean that the world is going to agree or that our "therapy" is ever going to impact or change our rape culture. I guess I'm much more pessimistic about whether or even how that can be changed. I was just toying with the idea that we all might be writing rape erotica to cope with the reality of rape in our own personal way as writers.

So that's enough ranting for one day.
Sylvia

 

[Softly]

Rape in History

In a History class I took, the discussion turned to the Irish and Scottish people's pride in their origin. The Professor told us that all the cultures of Europe were mixed because there were hundreds of regional wars wherein the victors "killed or ran off the men, and impregnated the women."

Recently I read that three days after Germany surendered, the Russians posted all over the part of Germany that they controled, a set of rules, which included "No German could lock their doors, or prevent any Russian from entering any building to take ANYTHING that he wanted." The report continued, "Russians, as a form of retaliation, begin to rape the German women on a daily basis,and continued to rape them for years. For the most part, only the very old, and the very young German men survived the war, so millions of German women lived without a man. It is not know what percentage of the children born in the Russian zone were sired by Russian men, but it may have exceeded 50%."

 

[Guest]

I disagree, Paolo

Paolo,s description of the "biological reason for rape."

"...sum it up by saying that men are so hot wired for sex that they'll hump anything that triggers their attraction responce as long as the cost to them, in terms of future life and reproduction, is small."


As a male, I couldn't disagree more. I am as filled with dark fantasies and have a libido as strong as that of anyone I know. I am strong enough and clever enough to have committed many rapes without serious danger of repercussions in my life. And trust me, my "attraction responce" is pretty easily triggered. By your explanation, then, I would have committed those rapes when the opportunity was there.

Yet, I have never even come close to committing a rape. Why not? Because it is a cruel and hateful act, and no matter what hormones rage in my desire-addled brain I am a decent and caring human being and I would not willfully victimize some poor woman just because the motive and opportunity presented itself.

The overwhelming majority of men do not victimize women just because they can. Yet, when being truthful, they would admit to having had the impulse and opportunity. They simply control their impulses because, despite too oft-accepted myths, most men are more than talking animals.

 

[Paolo Labico]

I appreciate your responces.

I am a Biologist by trade, I study animal reproductive behavior, so I can tell you that few terms are a misunderstood as "biological determinism". I truly do believe that rape-like war and murder- are components of our human behavioral repertoir. As to the enevidability of rape, it depends on the population structure of the group we are considering. The culture does not create the rapist, quite the opposite the culture inhibits rape. If you go look at the cultures for which rape is "unthinkable" (I must admit I'm unaware of any for which this can be demonstrated, but I accept the premise) the reason that no raping occurs is that rape is a terrible reproductive strategy in human beings. Contrary to what male dominated science thought for a long time, most of primate societies that are like those of early humans are dominated by a female hierarchy. The fastest way I can think of to piss off the females is to start raping them. When you live in a troop of at most a few dozen individuals, you can't avoid being ostrasized if you are a rapist. thus you greatly reduce your chance of further reproduction. Also in that early context the pairbond between a man and a woman was important in determining the survival of offspring- which is why we at least pay lip service to being monogamous. raping a woman and leaving her to raise the child meant the child was unlikely to survive.

So in general men don't rape. Our culture is designed to inhibit it. Apart from it being illegal, our parents and others ensure that we feel guilt and shame for even thinking about it (think of the emotions brought out by this thread) Of course we would never do it, It's "wrong" (wrong being defined by our culture). But we know it happens. So when does it happen.

It happens when the normal structures of an established culture are perterbed. factors like overpopulation, war, etc. lead to a breakdown of culural controls and a shifting of cultural definitions. In these settings the reproductive options to an individual my be limited, and it is possible that rape is in fact an alternative route to reproduction, or was at some point in our evolution and has never been lost.

Now back to "Biological determinism". What people tend to forget is that though there may be a biological reason for rape, even genetic underpinnings for the behavior, that doesn't mean it is enevitable or acceptable. If human genes encode for rape, they also encode for all of the building blocks of the culture that inhibits rape. Human males may rape,they also kill, steal, and fart in public. I haven't heard anyone saying lets kill all the men before they commit murder. There is no culture for which rape is allowed within the bounds of the cultural group.(war by definition occurs between groups).
I would add that rape, or fear of rape has often been used as a threat by cultures to keep women within the norms of behavior established by a culture. If the individual woman strays from what is considered acceptible, she risks exclusion from the group, and thus becomes fair game for rapists. She loses the shield of society. Its obvious that in a modern society its the cultural definitions that need to change, and not the individual behaviour of women, but this is a slow process. Thus the "she asked for it" justification has been slow in dying.

We "talking animals" are raised to despise rape. Our biology providing mechanisms like guilt, fear and shame to ensure the message is remembered. This is why Darkness D. above does not rape. It also is why he, I assume, feels some guilt for even fantasizing about raping someone. I assume that many the men in balkan rape camps were raised the same way, so who knows what one may do in the wrong context. I said "attraction responce" in the prior post, to account for things like raping men, which obvioulsly has no reproductive benifit. Leaving aside homosexuality, the triggers that cause men to find something attractive are a bit sloppy-ie: women have soft skin and are less hairy, and so are adolescent boys. I would categorize some of this as accidental attraction, a side effect of imperfect sexual recognition on a less than concious level. This was not to imply that men see a sexual cue and hump it by reflex without a chance to think apply self control.

A last note. Women don't rape men historically because any man you could rape was probably not fit to have kids with. Think of the investment (9 months, delivery with possible death attached, raising the child) women need to be real choosey who they mate with. Men on the other hand pop it in, and if they don't get a disease, the whole thing lasts 30 seconds- a small investment. It is interesting to see that where sex can be completely divorced from reproduction women rapists do occur. Woman on woman rape, such as in prisons. Who knows, modern contraception might just spawn female rapists. This is doubtful though, becuase for the reasons I outlined in the previous post women rarely have trouble getting access to sex.

Finally: All of this is predicated on the notion that rape is at least nominally about sex. Some rape is most likely all about mental illness and violence purely for violence sake and so is outside the scope of this post. Far different societal problems may spawn such acts, though there may be feedback between them (someone raped for a sexual reason may be so shattered as to act out on another for purely violent reasons for example).

 

[Guest]

much more clear

Paolo,

This last entry was much more clear than your previous. While I don't agree with everything you say, your argument seems much better reasoned than before. Your clarification was, well, clarifying.

 

[KillerMuffin]

Bump.

We've got a new crop of authors here, fresh opinions, and a slew of new N/C stories, including my own efforts.

What do we think?

 

[Whispersecret]

Re: I appreciate your responces.

There is no culture for which rape is allowed within the bounds of the cultural group.(war by definition occurs between groups).

This thread is so old that I'm not sure Paolo will come around to see this, but I'm asking anyway.

If I'm not mistaken, wasn't there a custom as illustrated in the movie, "Braveheart," where the king or some other big wig was entitled to "droit de signeur" or something like that? Where he could deflower the virgin bride before the husband took her? Couldn't that be construed as culturally condoned rape?

 

[Bob Waters]

In re the post about why women with abuse in their background would want to use abuse in fantasy as a coping mech.:

In fantasy, the person HAVING the fantasy is in control - whether they are playing the part of the abuser or the victim. When they were actually abused they had NO control over the situation.

Victims of abuse often suffer flashbacks. By incorporating fantasies of abuse into their sexual daydreams, they are controling this situation - the only thing that will happen to the fantasy victim is what SHE wants to happen.

It's a way of taking control of an unhealthy situation and turning it into something the victim can live with.

It sounds wierd if it never happened to you or someone you're close enough with to know VERY well, but to someone who has been a victim, it's a bit more understandable.

Note: someone in this type of situation is usually very reluctant to share these fantasies with others as they are deeply personal.

 

[Paolo Labico]

Aha! Thought you'd escape my notice.

If I'm not mistaken, wasn't there a custom as illustrated in the movie, "Braveheart," where the king or some other big wig was entitled to "droit de signeur" or something like that? Where he could deflower the virgin bride before the husband took her? Couldn't that be construed as culturally condoned rape?

Actually, the "Prima Notte" is a good exampleof what I was discussing earlier. It is a form of sexual terrorism akin to what we witnessed in Bosnia.

The custom is an out growth of conquest and was thrust upon a subject people. This can be seen in "Braveheart" if you examine who was getting the "first night" from whom. In later times the custom would sometimes reappear for the use of Nobles on their subject peasants even aftr the initial conquest had long been forgotten. (Another example of a social structure born of invasion and conquest that becomes part of a culture would be the caste system in India). Since very few nobles percieved themselves as one with their subject populations, there would be no cultural deterrent on their part- at least until the guillotine catches up with them.

Paul

 

[MunchinMark]

I'm not at all sure that droit de seignieur was commonly practiced or condoned. It happened, yes, but how much of this is latter day fiction?

I'm very suspicious of a selfish gene approach to rape. Rapists don't seem to be going out to make their victims pregnant.

They do seem to be out to subject their victims to one of the greatest insults possible. They want to demean their victims, take away all of their slef respect and pride.

It looks like there is a sentiment that rape is sex with the rules taken away. Can I suggest that it is the other way around and a rapist is using sex in a violent way because he is either not all 'there' mentally or is under extreme stress. (Having been subjected to years of bloody and vicious fighting for example, or psychologically unable to cope with the apparent dismissal of masuline values by modern society, which I have seen put forward elsewhere as a serious problem, especially amongst young men).

I don't think that rape is basic to male sexuality and is controled by the application of cultural morality, I think that that idea has implications which do not bear contemplation.

 

[Paolo Labico]

I'm very suspicious of a selfish gene approach to rape. Rapists don't seem to be going out to make their victims pregnant.

I don't think that rape is basic to male sexuality and is controled by the application of cultural morality, I think that that idea has implications which do not bear contemplation.

Nuclear fission has diabolical implications too, but don't suggest you put some Uranium in your pants pocket hoping it was an invalid theory.

As to the point about selfish genes, the intent of the individual is irrelevent. If his rape results in fertilization, then the gene gets passed on reguardless of his desires.

I agree with the idea that some rape is all about violence, but another type is more about sex. When some frat-boy date rapes, I don't think its cause he's mad at his mom, I think its cause he wants to wet his dick and cares nothing for the feelings of the girl.