Sleeping on the Wing Challenge: Vladimir Mayakowski (1893-1930)

[unpredictablebijou]

Poetry, oddly enough.

now you're just talkin' crazy.

I'll be over in the corner with that ramona girl, writing filthy limericks.

bj

eta: impressive doesn't come slumming in here. she thinks we're all snarky elitists.

 

[Eluard]

Wow — just got back to reading this threadbare thread. Talk about a meltdown!

I've got to tell you that Senna and I are now lovers and completely as one. We are totally united in our uncritical admiration of him.

Oh and Ohhh Livia, part of my poem — which I'm sorry to say only one person liked, (je suis desolé) — was about you. You can figure out which bit and feel flattered or whatever.

 

[Eluard]

To bring this all back, at the end, to Mayakovsky.

Apology to Mayakovsky

........Well, because
I am not angry
about anything, goddammit.

........Not that it's his business,
or yours, anyway.

.

Tz — you actually have an in-law relation to Mayakovsky. The woman whom he had his great ménage à trios love affair with, Lilya Brik, was the sister of Elsa Triolet — who later married Tristan Tzara.

 

[Senna Jawa]

[...] ripping into other people's efforts without trying to specifically explain what doesn't work and why (and no, "this doesn't work because it's awful" is not a sufficient explanation), is against the very purpose of teacing.

(I am all for teasing).

Now seriously, all you had to do, Liar, was to get off your high horse and ask.

It has happened so many times; for instance when dumb andy, who liked to talk down his nose too, wrote a juvenile poem about him (as a student) and his biology teacher doing things sexual. It was a stupid text (extra stupid in fact). If you, Liar, asked me straight I would even explain it, despite the triviality of the task. But most everybody chose to treat that nothing text like an "interesting poem", and that was it.

I used to analyze even weak poems on Internet right away. Most of the time my effort was wasted (and got me in trouble ). With the time passing I state my opinion sometimes, and I rather wait for a polite invitation to say more, while I ignore impolite, indirect phrases-traps, which create unacceptable assumptions and stink the atmosphere. If you, Liar, like to get my remarks then allow for suitable conditions, i.e. don't do actively the opposite.

 

[unpredictablebijou]

I have been depressed this week. Barely peeked in to see what was going on.

I want to say, I have almost always enjoyed SJ and the incredible amount of knowledge his has stored away.

I will also so, see ya'll later, I am depressed enough. Theres enough hatefulnesses in the world and this is sad, the last 30 or so posts I read.

I,also thought this was a good idea, it may not be an in depth study of any poet in particular, but just a "taste of" sort of thing...that isnt bad.... the way the interactions here have gone on, is....sad.

smile people, and accept one another, take the good where you can get it, let the rest pass on as if water over a shallow dam.

See, this is the thing that makes me saddest about this sort of conflict. Not only does it intimidate new people, it sends perfectly good regulars into hiding. Between the general bickering and the ridiculous sock puppets, this has gone completely off track, and we lose nice, real poets who want to be in here for the right reasons.

NJ, come back soon, sweetie. I'll do my best to keep it all safe and friendly in the Bistro for you, anyway; it's the only thing I have even vague control over.


How bout this, which seems like a simple solution to me anyway. It is not addressed to anyone in particular except for those who aren't already doing it.

1. Offer critique
--- when it is asked for
--- honestly but diplomatically

2. Be kind. To people. All of them. Always.

Not that difficult, really. And the whole world would be so much better.

I for one am actually still working on this week's challenge, and looking forward to next week as well.

And if the niceness doesn't increase around here, I'm going to put up a Tristan Tzara Challenge, <--- imagine that in a spooky halloween font and dripping with blood

and NOBODY wants that. Believe you me.

bj

 

[Angeline]

See, this is the thing that makes me saddest about this sort of conflict. Not only does it intimidate new people, it sends perfectly good regulars into hiding. Between the general bickering and the ridiculous sock puppets, this has gone completely off track, and we lose nice, real poets who want to be in here for the right reasons.

NJ, come back soon, sweetie. I'll do my best to keep it all safe and friendly in the Bistro for you, anyway; it's the only thing I have even vague control over.


How bout this, which seems like a simple solution to me anyway. It is not addressed to anyone in particular except for those who aren't already doing it.

1. Offer critique
--- when it is asked for
--- honestly but diplomatically

2. Be kind. To people. All of them. Always.

Not that difficult, really. And the whole world would be so much better.

I for one am actually still working on this week's challenge, and looking forward to next week as well.

And if the niceness doesn't increase around here, I'm going to put up a Tristan Tzara Challenge, <--- imagine that in a spooky halloween font and dripping with blood

and NOBODY wants that. Believe you me.

bj

Well you may have to do that because this poet is staying up for another week. I have an editing deadline I must meet on Monday, so I won't have time to put up a new poet tomorrow. Sorry folks, but sometimes life gets in the way of the fun stuff. Fun! I said this is fun!

 

[Liar]

Senna, my post was not specifically aimed against you. It was in the context of this thread just as much adressed to Eulard's rude replies, and in a more general context many more, including myself when I'm in a pissy mood. It was a reflection on what I see all the time on various web boards - everyone thinking they're the saints and everyone else is rudely attacking them for no reason. Just goes to show what tricky thinge perceptions and decorum are in an environment like this.

With the time passing I state my opinion sometimes, and I rather wait for a polite invitation to say more, while I ignore impolite, indirect phrases-traps, which create unacceptable assumptions and stink the atmosphere. If you, Liar, like to get my remarks then allow for suitable conditions, i.e. don't do actively the opposite.

See, that's the problem. You don't even seem to realize that those initial opinions stated are quite often precieved as nothing but inflammatory, condesending and snarky. So when people respond in kind to your rudeness, as they see it, you seem to view it as an unprovoked attack.

Buy hey, it's not my job to tell people how to behave. Especially since I don't always practice what I preach. But it's an occupational hazard for me to obsess on the mechanics of communication, and especially when it's getting blocked by egoes and lack of perspective shift. Like you said, suitable conditions is what we want. I think we all have part in the failure to create that.

Now, on to the Tristan Tzara challence. Oh my.

 

[unpredictablebijou]

Well you may have to do that because this poet is staying up for another week. I have an editing deadline I must meet on Monday, so I won't have time to put up a new poet tomorrow. Sorry folks, but sometimes life gets in the way of the fun stuff. Fun! I said this is fun!

oh no. I'm saving the Tzara challenge as a last resort, uber-punitive technique. Since things are a bit mellower I don't have to go there now.

This is good, though. I want more time to work on my actual piece for this; I'm actually not totally unhappy with my attempts for this one.

bj

 

[Liar]

This is good, though. I want more time to work on my actual piece for this; I'm actually not totally unhappy with my attempts for this one.

For the record, I'm totally unhappy with mine. If it ever get past the utter gibberish phase, I'll let you know.

 

[unpredictablebijou]

For the record, I'm totally unhappy with mine. If it ever get past the utter gibberish phase, I'll let you know.

Keep the faith, baby. We're all in the same burning boat.

bj

 

[champagne1982]

For the record, I'm totally unhappy with mine. If it ever get past the utter gibberish phase, I'll let you know.

I feel like I shouldn't write or read these threads until 3 days before the deadline's due. Then I'd have a reason to post quickly and not have all this regret in leisure time.

 

[normal jean]

angeline, you know i love you, so you wont mind me telling this.

a while back, i posted a poem, you didnt really understand and you sent me a pm telling me why you werent going to mention it. that meant more to me than you just telling everyone to read my stuff because you are my friend. that is true friendship, how you were concerned about how i felt. thank you for everything and dont you change a bit, not ever!

i know this is off topic so please, no one bite me, I am sour anyway, taste like bug juice...

 

[UnderYourSpell]

I tried to reach you NJ but couldn't find how to PM you

 

[Eluard]

...just as much adressed to Eulard's rude replies

Liar, I take exception to this.

I was not “rude” to Senna, I insulted him — there’s an important difference. It is the difference, in this case, between an unprovoked attack and just and warranted retaliation. I was incensed, not for the little dig at me particularly — I don’t give a fig for anything that Senna has to say — but rather for the way that UYS was used to make that attack.

(And I have been fairly appalled at the lack of comment on that fact from others and for the continual protestations of admiration which seem to endorse it by not mentioning it. Why has no one chimed in with support for UYS in this? — are you all really so intimidated by, or frightened of, Senna that you don’t defend a woman?*)

This thread is not a post-and-seek-critique thread, it is a challenge thread. Thus far only bijou and I have posted poems in response to that challenge and we have both been roundly attacked. Liar seems to be confusedly saying that the fault here is that these attacks are lacking in analytic detail. No. the fault is that that is not the point of this thread.

If anyone dislikes my, or bijou’s poem — and certainly anyone has a right to — then show us how much better you are, don’t just claim to be superior, actually show it — show it by posting a damned poem to this thread that is demonstrably superior. I like reading good poems and I will welcome your attempt.

And as a general point on the ethics of retaliation, here is a sign from a Paris zoo. “This animal is dangerous. When attacked it will defend itself.” Israel and I would like everyone to remember that.




* UYS, don't misunderstand me: I am not saying that you need defending. You've proven that.

 

[Liar]

Liar, I take exception to this.

I was not “rude” to Senna, I insulted him — there’s an important difference. It is the difference, in this case, between an unprovoked attack and just and warranted retaliation.

I'm a simple man. Nuances like that are lost on me. This just looks like yet another of many arguments where two (or more) people claim "I'm totally innocent, he was mean first, I'm just biting back". Who is justified, who is the villain? Does it matter?

Liar seems to be confusedly saying that the fault here is that these attacks are lacking in analytic detail. No. the fault is that that is not the point of this thread.

Ok, point taken. I am however of a different opinion. I think that there is not any "wrong" place on a foum like this for reactions and comments to anything posted. Be it poems, questions, facts or opinion pieces. As long as comments are constructive, specific and presented in a reasonably friendly tone.

But that's me, thinking a discussion forum is a place for discussion. I'm weird like that.

 

[Eluard]

I'm a simple man. Nuances like that are lost on me. This just looks like yet another of many arguments where two (or more) people claim "I'm totally innocent, he was mean first, I'm just biting back". Who is justified, who is the villain? Does it matter?
Ok, point taken. I am however of a different opinion. I think that there is not any "wrong" place on a foum like this for reactions and comments to anything posted. Be it poems, questions, facts or opinion pieces. As long as comments are constructive, specific and presented in a reasonably friendly tone.

But that's me, thinking a discussion forum is a place for discussion. I'm weird like that.

I think if you want to appoint yourself the responsible adult of the forum, or just this thread, then you should learn to make the necessary fine distinctions that are required for the job. Otherwise you are just adding noise.

Your opinion about this being a discussion forum — as opposed to a forum with different parts designated for some specific function — is part and parcel of the same inability to make fine distinctions.

Now I've given you my opinion, and you've given me yours.

 

[Liar]

I think if you want to appoint yourself the responsible adult of the forum, or just this thread, then you should learn to make the necessary fine distinctions that are required for the job.

Heavens no. If I was to be the grown-up, I'd have to start practicing what I preach. That would be way too much to ask for.

 

[champagne1982]

Eluard,

I must protest that you submit that only you and unpredictablebijou have posted poems in response to this challenge. I have no idea what you've been reading but waaaaaaaaay back last Sunday, I posted a poem. Perhaps you don't see it as a response to the challenge of writing an angry, metaphorical poem but I assure you; that is what I wished to express.

Now, come down from your need to defend a woman as if she is incapable of doing so herself. Sheeesh, if I were UYS I'm not sure if I'd be pleased at your gallantry or insulted by your chauvinism.

p.s. I must apologize for my last line. I didn't see the disclaimer until I'd posted although I wonder why you felt you had to justify your comment it if that's not what you meant in the main body of your reply.

 

[Angeline]

I tried to reach you NJ but couldn't find how to PM you

I tried, too. She must have them turned off. We have that option on pm's.

angeline, you know i love you, so you wont mind me telling this.

a while back, i posted a poem, you didnt really understand and you sent me a pm telling me why you werent going to mention it. that meant more to me than you just telling everyone to read my stuff because you are my friend. that is true friendship, how you were concerned about how i felt. thank you for everything and dont you change a bit, not ever!

i know this is off topic so please, no one bite me, I am sour anyway, taste like bug juice...

No I don't mind, and I love you too (which I am sure you know). We've held each other's hands through some hard stuff each has gone through over the years. And I'm sorry I popped off at you, I am. I do love Bijou, too. She's a good person with a good, kind heart. She's flamboyant and I believe a lot of what some might call attention seeking is her way of trying to get people comfortable with poetry and the forum. Anyway we're all attention whores sometimes. We're human. You know me: I try to see the good in everyone. It's who I am. When I act angry it's usually because I'm frustrated--often about things that have nothing to do with poetry or Lit or this forum. This thread has become something of a train wreck, but anger like any strong emotion is ultimately good for art, I think, so I'm not too worried about our various bruised feelings.

There are many people here--you and Bijou, for example--where I would say read all this person's poetry because they're good writers. That doesn't mean I think every poem by someone whose writing I like is perfect. Nor does it mean I think Poet X is intrinsically better than Poet Y; I just like who I like. And whenever I recommend poems I try to say somewhere in my rec that it's just my opinion and people should read for themself to see what they think--or recommend something I haven't if they think I've missed something.

And even the people who sometimes say things that make me wince because I find them hurtful also have knowledge to share that can be helpful and illuminating.

Personally, I think if Mayakovsky could read through all this he'd find it childish and outrageous and funny--not unlike his poem, so maybe we're not so far off the mark after all.

And I'm pretty sure you don't taste like bug juice. You probably taste complicated, like all of us. Like I said: human.

Ok, back to editing my book about LSD, human consciousness and perception of reality. Really. It's quite interesting, but if I don't stop blabbing and start editing, I won't get paid tomorrow.

 

[normal jean]

I tried, too. She must have them turned off. We have that option on pm's.



No I don't mind, and I love you too (which I am sure you know). We've held each other's hands through some hard stuff each has gone through over the years. And I'm sorry I popped off at you, I am. I do love Bijou, too. She's a good person with a good, kind heart. She's flamboyant and I believe a lot of what some might call attention seeking is her way of trying to get people comfortable with poetry and the forum. Anyway we're all attention whores sometimes. We're human. You know me: I try to see the good in everyone. It's who I am. When I act angry it's usually because I'm frustrated--often about things that have nothing to do with poetry or Lit or this forum. This thread has become something of a train wreck, but anger like any strong emotion is ultimately good for art, I think, so I'm not too worried about our various bruised feelings.

There are many people here--you and Bijou, for example--where I would say read all this person's poetry because they're good writers. That doesn't mean I think every poem by someone whose writing I like is perfect. Nor does it mean I think Poet X is intrinsically better than Poet Y; I just like who I like. And whenever I recommend poems I try to say somewhere in my rec that it's just my opinion and people should read for themself to see what they think--or recommend something I haven't if they think I've missed something.

And even the people who sometimes say things that make me wince because I find them hurtful also have knowledge to share that can be helpful and illuminating.

Personally, I think if Mayakovsky could read through all this he'd find it childish and outrageous and funny--not unlike his poem, so maybe we're not so far off the mark after all.

And I'm pretty sure you don't taste like bug juice. You probably taste complicated, like all of us. Like I said: human.

Ok, back to editing my book about LSD, human consciousness and perception of reality. Really. It's quite interesting, but if I don't stop blabbing and start editing, I won't get paid tomorrow.

dear sweet sis

when did you pop off at me? I am totally confused. BJ and me, well, Im pretty sure we "get " each other, she's totally cool.
right now, I am waiting for check in, I cant go till 3, so I have a little while.

and I just want to say one more thing, a bunch of you guys told me a long time ago..best thing you can do to a troll is ignore him/her. right? there is nothing, i mean nothing i hate more than someone who enjoys stirring up shit and that is why I had no problem jumping down cubby's throat a while back. that's all he did was try to make us hate one another, you remember him, right?

I would say that someone else here has some mental probs and its not just me, it was all I could do to bite my tongue and stay out of it. if i had jumped in, well, im in a place right now, i couldnt deal with it and it makes me really sad. I love peace as much as you do. and I adore you! my god, I cant wait till you and ee move down here. a hug from you wold be a miracle cure right now.

i dont know if you misunderstood my post earlier, i was practically hysterical, but something that olive said made me remember that poem of mine that you pm'd me about. I worded it wrong, im sure, i just wanted everyone to know that you do NOT just mention a poem because someone you care for wrote it, you arent biased like that, you never have been and I cannot imagine you ever will be. I know in fac, it sort of hurt you that you didnt feel it worthy and i felt bad for you...hugs.

I know this sounds funny, but I just kept waiting for 1201 to pop in and correct her spelling of phony, lol. He would see past it all and catch the misspells. I know it might be an unpopular opinion, but I love that guy, always have. He has been there for me when I felt totally alone, in some way, i think he understands me and my fucked up mind.

I am probably gonna be "gone" for about 3 or 4 days, depends on what kind of tests, but Im thinking its way beyond clinically depressed, maybe bipolar, doc said for years, it wasnt, but I think he is wrong.

anyway, you guys be good to each other and make use of that ignore button on the trolls, it works.

love and peace kind people



I'll be back, muawahaha


OMG, I almost forgot, and this is for BJ....me and hubby are supposed to go to Oklahoma on our next job, should be within a month the bossman said, so if its on the way, I'm hoping I can stop by and check out this flambouyant lady with all her jewels and glitter. wouldnt that be cool? I mean, if she'll have me.... I do remember her mentionnig something about a kansas city ribeye, yummy, lol and Im still looking for that tourmaline neck lace

ok, hubby' motioning, so i guess im off to the looney bin for a while...but thats a good thing sometimes...

 

[unpredictablebijou]

dear sweet sis

when did you pop off at me? I am totally confused. BJ and me, well, Im pretty sure we "get " each other, she's totally cool.

***
OMG, I almost forgot, and this is for BJ....me and hubby are supposed to go to Oklahoma on our next job, should be within a month the bossman said, so if its on the way, I'm hoping I can stop by and check out this flambouyant lady with all her jewels and glitter. wouldnt that be cool? I mean, if she'll have me.... I do remember her mentionnig something about a kansas city ribeye, yummy, lol and Im still looking for that tourmaline neck lace

ok, hubby' motioning, so i guess im off to the looney bin for a while...but thats a good thing sometimes...

shucks, darlin', thanks. I hope you make it through this patch and come out shining.

And it would be most excellent to host you round the KC area if you get this way. Do do let me know!

We're good at steak around here, and I've got some tourmaline that'll make ya salivate and babble.

I'd have O-lube-ya on ignore but I get so many good lines from her! Here's a fun fact: a particular native american tribe (don't know which one, sorry) has a tradition that if a child comes home from school upset about being called a cruel nickname, the whole family immediately adopts that name for the child and begins calling him/her that. The idea is that when someone names you, they have taken power over you with that name, and in order to take your power back, you must own that name for yourself and turn it into a source of power.

So here's what I realized. The term "attention whore" becomes a power name, if you think about what a "whore" is, at least in some definitions, or maybe just in mine: someone who gives it away for free. As opposed to a prostitute, who charges, who wants something in return.

So an attention whore gives attention away for free. Expects no payment for it. And that's really what the Bistro has always been about: people need, people deserve, positive attention. More attention than they get, usually. I know few people who aren't hungry for it, in need of more. In that little space, unimportant as it is, I do my best to give it away for free: pay attention to everyone, be kind to everyone, try to offer them what they need, albeit in the imaginary form. I know no one, no one, who doesn't deserve good kind attention. And in doing so I have been richly rewarded, far beyond my expectations, with fascinating conversation, excellent company and vast amusement.

and a little teency bit of amoral squalor.

so come back soon, darlin'. you're relatively safe, at least in there.

And meanwhile, alright you kids. This thread still hasn't really returned to proper poetic discussion, so I'm putting my foot down. Watch soon for the Penalty Challenge.

muahahaha


bj

 

[Eluard]

Eluard,

I must protest that you submit that only you and unpredictablebijou have posted poems in response to this challenge. I have no idea what you've been reading but waaaaaaaaay back last Sunday, I posted a poem. Perhaps you don't see it as a response to the challenge of writing an angry, metaphorical poem but I assure you; that is what I wished to express.

Now, come down from your need to defend a woman as if she is incapable of doing so herself. Sheeesh, if I were UYS I'm not sure if I'd be pleased at your gallantry or insulted by your chauvinism.

p.s. I must apologize for my last line. I didn't see the disclaimer until I'd posted although I wonder why you felt you had to justify your comment it if that's not what you meant in the main body of your reply.

My apologies Champers for having forgotten that you'd posted your terrific poem.

 

[champagne1982]

My apologies Champers for having forgotten that you'd posted your terrific poem.

No harm, no foul (fowl?... no chickens were harmed in the drafting of this thread, but my, oh my, you should have seen the fur fly.)

Thanks for your gracious response.

 

[Angeline]

America, and I'm not agreeing
with you but remember when
we were young and I could still
jump high enough to catch
lightning bugs in a jar without coughing?

You looked so beautiful
in the gloaming, you wore your trees
half unbuttoned. It was no accident
when your leaves fell in that ancient
ritual, years passed like years and not

some nostalgic Waltonesque memory
for the good times. America, we didn't
have to laugh or cry on cue. This was before
we took you to the streets, slapped you
silly, battered you with tear gas, made

bruises of your silly anthem. Remember
how we ducked and covered, stacked
cans of Spam in backyard bunkers,
played Combat for ant hills and bid you
sweet dreamsicles? Those were the days,

eh, America? We worried over times
tables, not your ugly restricted lunch
counters and nightmare sheets. Life
could be a dream, ba-dum ba-dum,
but you didn't take us up to paradise,

you dragged us screaming across oceans
and into burning rice paddies, all the time
singing about amber waves of grain
while Billy and Dave and Leroy
from Algebra II lay face down in said

rice paddies never again to wake
by the dawn's early light. So excuse me
for being tired of your strident platitudes,
your moral majority, your go-get-em
yeehaw optimism. I want to take a nap

now America, I'm getting too old
for this roller coaster nationalism.
Turn off the light on your way out,
would you, and we'll both say a prayer
that God will bless somebody, somewhere.

 

[UnderYourSpell]

Wish I could write like that