Starting BDSM Lifestyle W/Bipolar Wife

[Netzach]

I hear that. Ask a 'native american' what they are and they'll say 'indian'. (Well, unless they're a four year old girl who can't say indian yet, and tell people she's an alien - but that's a different story.) I use native american not to be PC, but to differentiate from people who are from India.

Sometimes PC terms are not what's prefered by the group it's refering to.

Another example. I don't know about elsewhere, but the 'hispanic' community in my area hates being called hispanic. They prefer latino/latina.

And sometimes using PC terms can get you into more trouble. Call a Jamaican American and African American and they can get cranky.

I have no problem with not using derogatory names. Quite frankly, I put effort into it. I'm not going to jump through hoops pleasing the unpleasable. There are people, I think, who go out of their way to be offended. They want to feel that they are being persecuted, whether they are or not. You know, the martyr syndrom and all that.

Besides, if we're going to be really picky, I wanna be called 'vertically challenged' instead of short and 'horizontally challenged' instead of fat.

Anyone want a 'politically correct' giggle? http://www.cowboylyrics.com/lyrics/paisley-brad/kung-pao-buckaroo-holiday-18727.html

I am SOOOO on board with you. It's not that costly to try and get along with people and it's not that costly to relax and see when someone's trying to do that.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

HOMBURG

Ten years ago I created a website featuring death and marriage records from the newspapers. I included black records.

Every email I got from black people was complimentary and thankful for the efforts. And all of the email from white people about the black records was awful. One national teacher organization wrote me demanding I change the wording in the old records, and threatened me with assorted actions if I did not.

Black, negro, Afram, and colored were the customary terms used in the old papers. Afram was the accepted term at the time of the War of 1812.

But I caught hell from the white people.

 

[graceanne]

HORNYBABE

Twenty years ago Satanism was the popular boogie-man. A pentogram or any symbol on your hand or notebook was enough for you to be jerked from school and sent to me. Oh! The cops were terribly excited about it, and plenty of mental health professionals were certain teens were having barbecues in the cemetery. I heard dozens of reports of infants being dug-up and eaten.

And the proof was always some naturally occurring depression at a grave. Or the kids were fucking with the panic-stricken grown-ups. I did that.

With a little cosmetic assistance I can make my leg look like Godzilla ate it. And we hooked my mom every time. My friends drug me to the door with my 'wound." "An alligator got him, really." We laughed our asses off.

LOL If you were my child, I'd have ensured that you didn't walk for a long time - no matter your age.

 

[graceanne]

I am SOOOO on board with you. It's not that costly to try and get along with people and it's not that costly to relax and see when someone's trying to do that.

Yeah. I guess what I'm saying is that I'm willing to make a little effort, but not TOO much effort. There comes a point where you will never please the person cause they're looking to be offended. But if it makes them happier to be called 'latino' than 'hispanic' then who cares? It's not gonna kill you to call them that. On the other hand if they become 'hispanically challenged' or something equally silly, I'm gonna roll my eyes and leave.

 

[Homburg]

I can live with a pollution of language in which I'm no longer a Heeb or a Kike in the region I live in. I married into a family that had an "Uncle Kike" in it (not Jewish, duh) which is a kind of breathtaking moment of things past.

On one end of the spectrum we have "heeb", "kike", etc. On the other end of the spectrum we have "Manic-depressive" and "mental retardation". There's a difference between these, no? I have no problem with an organisation trying to weed out grossly insulting terms that have a long history of being used solely for the purpose of denigration. But completely accurate medical terminology?

It is a problem in our society where personal judgement and accountability are no longer considered valid. Organisations have to micromange their members so as to prevent the slightest slip-ups or chance of offense. Where once the public understood that a medical professional using the term "mental retardation" was not offering insult, we are conditioned these days to manufacture outrage, then complain and profit from said outrage.

I personally would rather deal with some language ambiguity in favor of people being able to name themselves. You had a few things to say in the labeling threads about yourself, if it's so big a deal imagine it being completely taken away from you.

How does that work? I'm not seeing it. Someone can call me a blue monkey, and it doesn't take away my ability to self-label. I do not label myself based on external reinforcements. I label myself based on my own associations.

Seriously, I'm just not following here.

Guess what, the members of the minorities you are calling out are as diverse as you are. Some people will be offended by some words and some people won't care a bit about the same words. For the people who didn't have the power to name themselves for the first time ever maybe the world is a little less confusing.

I guess my riposte is:
It's a confusing world - get over yourself. I 've offended people with the wrong language and lived. They told me what they preferred, I honored it. No one died.

There's a difference. If someone asks you to modify your language because it offends them, that is understandable. It is uncommon, but it is understandable. The issue is with organisations doing it, and doing it on increasingly finer points, and telling me that I must modify my language, also on increasingly finer points Then those that buy into that concept attempting to enforce it via social pressure outside of said organisations. This is where the problem lies in my opinion, and revolves around said incresingly finer points.

If Jane, a blue monkey, asks me to call her an "azure primate" because she finds "blue monkey" to be offensive (because "blue" implies "sad" and blue monkeys are very gay, er happy), I will consider it, and probably concede. I say consider because any given relationship has various levels of concessions that any person is willing to make, and Jane's tone in making the request becomes important. It may be simpler to just refer to Jane as Jane or what have you.

If my workplace tells me to refer to all individuals of similar phenotype etc as Jane as "primates of an azure persuasion", then I'm going to do it, as I want to keep my job. But it is going to rankle me, largely because I'm still saying "blue monkey" and now I have to go back through my letters, saved files, templates, etc and change "blue monkey" to "primates of the azure persuasion". You can guaran-damned-tee that this time is not going to be billable. I am now grumpy at my employer and at all of them damned blue monkeys because I'm having to do all of this work to change "blue monkey" into "blue monkey using prettier words".

Now when concerned netizens step in and start talking on a BBS about the "primates of azure persuasion", that's when I start to get that twitch in my eye

Blue monkeys aside, our points are two seperate ends of a broad spectrum, and application of sense and decorum anywhere along that spectrum with prevent the language I'm talking about from turning into the language you're talking about.

 

[JMohegan]

Threatened? Interesting choice of words. No, not threatened. Why would I be threatened?

I honestly don't know. That's why I asked. I sincerely don't understand why this issue is so important to you.

On the other side of this debate, though, is your charge that some people are too sensitive. If you were to ask people in underprivileged, persecuted, or disadvantaged groups why they're sensitive to ethnic, religious, racial, regional, or class-focused language choices, don't you think that many of them would be able to provide very compelling replies?

Ah, hell, why not. See the history of colloquialisms usage to refer to Americans of African descent, or whatever the correct term is currently is. How many times have we seen the accepted term change in the past century? How long does it take before society is of the opinion that the phrase du jour is now an insult? How much point is there to such changes when the inevitable is, well, inevitable?

Still, specifics are something of a dead end. I'm not railing against this specific case. I am railing against the entire concept. The movement, if you will, towards linguistic entropy.

Speaking in ethical terms, if I were to pit your personal discomfort with language changes against the efforts of disadvantaged peoples to define themselves and move forward in our society, I personally see that as no contest.

 

[HB1965]

My post neither addressed nor referred to you.

You may not have indended that, but it's how it felt when it was aimed directly at challenging a term that I used.

 

[Netzach]

You can guaran-damned-tee that this time is not going to be billable.

This I must disagree with. Not only is it billable it's an INDUSTRY in itself!

 

[graceanne]

For what it's worth, I didn't think your useage was offensive, personally. It's clear you're coming out of it professionally, not some 12 year old calling someone "a retard" and it's clear also that you can't magically know what the UK level of offensiveness this does or doesn't have out of the professional community.

Actually, I agree. I think what the PC term is changes per geographical location. Which is why I said it's a geography thing. As I stated the 'hispanics' prefer 'latino' in our area, but I hear that they prefer hispanic in phoenix, arizona.

 

[JMohegan]

You may not have indended that, but it's how it felt.

And why I responded. To clear up the confusion.

 

[Homburg]

Dude, lingustic entropy is also evidenced by katakana in Japanese, barbarismes in French and the adoption of foreign words into English, which is the essential story of the entire language. If you want static, we'd still sound like we did in the Elizabethan era. (Read Shankara's Shakespeare thread for the overwhelming consensus of legibility there)

I'd also argue that real live scary into the ovens with you oppression starts with classification. Doesn't always end up that way, but it's a great way to get it rolling.

Who said I wanted static? Don't make me have JAMESBJOHNSON start crowing about straw men.

I was quite specific each time I complained about linguistic entropy to further qualify it based on the reasoning behind the linguistic entropy. How does being unhappy that the language is changing for specious* reasons translate into wanting a static language?

And, actually, I've a paper or two that related American to Victorian era British, and claimed that we have been subject to far less conversational drift in accents and colloquialisms than the British. Interesting stuff.


* - In my opinion, and I support this assertion above.

 

[Homburg]

This I must disagree with. Not only is it billable it's an INDUSTRY in itself!

Bitching about my employer, not the world in general. I get told that I can't bill so often that I figure I should just do my damned work for free and panhandle. I'd make better bank =P

 

[JMohegan]

HOMBURG

Ten years ago I created a website featuring death and marriage records from the newspapers. I included black records.

Every email I got from black people was complimentary and thankful for the efforts. And all of the email from white people about the black records was awful. One national teacher organization wrote me demanding I change the wording in the old records, and threatened me with assorted actions if I did not.

Black, negro, Afram, and colored were the customary terms used in the old papers. Afram was the accepted term at the time of the War of 1812.

But I caught hell from the white people.

That's ridiculous.

Would they suggest editing Dr. King's "I Have a Dream" speech, too?

 

[Netzach]

Who said I wanted static? Don't make me have JAMESBJOHNSON start crowing about straw men.

I was quite specific each time I complained about linguistic entropy to further qualify it based on the reasoning behind the linguistic entropy. How does being unhappy that the language is changing for specious* reasons translate into wanting a static language?

And, actually, I've a paper or two that related American to Victorian era British, and claimed that we have been subject to far less conversational drift in accents and colloquialisms than the British. Interesting stuff.


* - In my opinion, and I support this assertion above.

Because everyone who's ever complained about the "demise" or the "dilution" of a language has thought the changes were specious, no matter what they were.

 

[HB1965]

Here is the office definition of retard according to the American Hertiage Dictionary

American Heritage Dictionary - re·tard 1 (rĭ-tärd') Pronunciation Key
v. re·tard·ed, re·tard·ing, re·tards

v. tr.
To cause to move or proceed slowly; delay or impede.

v. intr.
To be delayed.

n.
A slowing down or hindering of progress; a delay.
Music A slackening of tempo.



It's term that was bastardized by modern culture

Not a term that was meant to be degrading from the get go like nigger.

If you want the honest truth I actually think the the term Developmental Retardation is a better term to describe the condition because it isn't just about retarding the growth of mental processes.

 

[Homburg]

I honestly don't know. That's why I asked. I sincerely don't understand why this issue is so important to you.

Again, importance is relative. Is this issue as important to me as any of a dozen other political hot-buttons? No. It is something that gets my goat, but what else is there to do but rant a bit? I don' tplan on marching against the idea. How would you do that? It's entropy. It would be like protesting against actual physical entropy.

On the other side of this debate, though, is your charge that some people are too sensitive. If you were to ask people in underprivileged, persecuted, or disadvantaged groups why they're sensitive to ethnic, religious, racial, regional, or class-focused language choices, don't you think that many of them would be able to provide very compelling replies?

If I asked it like that? No. The education system here locally is such that anyone fitting that description in my area would have no idea what you just said.

Speaking in ethical terms, if I were to pit your personal discomfort with language changes against the efforts of disadvantaged peoples to define themselves and move forward in our society, I personally see that as no contest.

And, though this might shock you, I would agree. Greater/lesser ethical weight does not absolve one of asking, or answering, questions though. Moreover, ethical weight does not make the party on the lighter end of that equation feel any damned better. This is why mathematical ethics, while interesting, never really went anywhere. you could prove that all sorts of abuses were wonderfully ethical so long as the good of the many was the primary goal.

In short, I raised that chicken for food. I'm gonna eat it. Ethics tells me it is a-okay to lop the chicken's head off and cook it. The chicken, however, will not be pleased with this ethical solution. So, while I may agree with you that our disadvantaged minorities may hold greater ethical weight than my concerns of lingual creep, that ethical weight is an insufficient motivator for me to simply sit down and shut up over something that I see is being handled quite poorly, growing in viral progression, and presenting our society with iincreasing burden in terms of money, man-hours, etc.

 

[graceanne]

That's ridiculous.

Would they suggest editing Dr. King's "I Have a Dream" speech, too?

Probably. There was a movement for awhile to remove Ben Franklin from the history books, cause he was a slave owner.

 

[JMohegan]

You may not have indended that, but it's how it felt when it was aimed directly at challenging a term that I used.

You edited this post after I responded to it the first time, so I'll respond to it once again.

I was not aiming to challenge a term that you used. I dropped that discussion yesterday.

Read it again. I was responding to Homburg's rant on "minority groups being pandered to" and attempts to change language in general.

 

[HB1965]

You edited this post after I responded to it the first time, so I'll respond to it once again.

I was not aiming to challenge a term that you used. I dropped that discussion yesterday.

Read it again. I was responding to Homburg's rant on "minority groups being pandered to" and attempts to change language in general.

Fine, but keep in mind that I just came off reading post this morning. I'm sorry if I took it out on you.

 

[Netzach]

Probably. There was a movement for awhile to remove Ben Franklin from the history books, cause he was a slave owner.

Ben was the only abolitionist on the "founding fathers" crew actually. He did own two but changed his mind later on in life and spoke in favor of educating freed slaves. Jefferson on the other hand...was like everyone of his time. In regard to slavery anyway. Taking him out of the curriculum is completely ridiculous because then everyone will just believe whatever's said by whomever and his slave owning will disappear once again behind myths.

 

[Homburg]

Because everyone who's ever complained about the "demise" or the "dilution" of a language has thought the changes were specious, no matter what they were.

Erm, the arguments I'm more used to involve maintaining cultural and linguistic purity. Germany and France (from memory) both had ministries, or whatever they're called these day, solely for that purpose.

And I still fail to see a connection between what I said and an argument on my part for a static language.

 

[Netzach]

I'm no worshipper of the idea of class mobility but you seriously believe that once someone is educated enough to read JMohegan's posts they lose all touch with any backstory?

Because as someone with a single mom on welfare growing up, that's news to me. Yeah, I had some issues when "the Bell Curve" came to my college. There are some opinions that don't deserve to be paid 20 grand to be aired just so we feel we're openminded.

 

[HB1965]

Ben was the only abolitionist on the "founding fathers" crew actually. He did own two but changed his mind later on in life and spoke in favor of educating freed slaves. Jefferson on the other hand...was like everyone of his time. In regard to slavery anyway. Taking him out of the curriculum is completely ridiculous because then everyone will just believe whatever's said by whomever and his slave owning will disappear once again behind myths.

LOL would be a little hard to do that since science has shown that dozens of black people are descended from him.

 

[graceanne]

Ben was the only abolitionist on the "founding fathers" crew actually. He did own two but changed his mind later on in life and spoke in favor of educating freed slaves. Jefferson on the other hand...was like everyone of his time. In regard to slavery anyway. Taking him out of the curriculum is completely ridiculous because then everyone will just believe whatever's said by whomever and his slave owning will disappear once again behind myths.

You're preaching to the choir. I know the Ben changed his mind and stuff - it's probably why the motion didn't go very far or get much attention. Beyond that, erasing history is always a bad idea. Who said it? Something about if you don't know your history you're doomed to repeat your mistakes?

 

[Homburg]

I'm no worshipper of the idea of class mobility but you seriously believe that once someone is educated enough to read JMohegan's posts they lose all touch with any backstory?

Because as someone with a single mom on welfare growing up, that's news to me. Yeah, I had some issues when "the Bell Curve" came to my college. There are some opinions that don't deserve to be paid 20 grand to be aired just so we feel we're openminded.

I was making a back-handed comment about the inadequcies of our local educational system.

And my pop was an enlisted man in the Army when I was a kid. This was back in the Viet Nam war era and after when the pay was horrible and young enlisted men's families were firmly below the poverty line in most areas. Not quite single mom on welfare, but we were poor. And I thought the "Bell Curve" sucked too.