Stories you hate.

[jaF0]

Now, throw in the element that he’s a bad boy and her parents dislike him for whatever reason, then the story becomes somewhat interesting and relatable on certain levels. Go even further and mention his conflicting bisexual tendencies or even hint that she’s a slut and the story is suddenly interesting. Mix in his alcohol problems and mention she wants wants to have a threesome with his best friend - and did I mention her parents didn’t like him for whatever reason? The story circles around and around. It isn’t boring. Sure, not every part is “sexually interesting”, but a story just about sex “is” boring.

That's not conflict.


Examples of movies that were for me by unnecessary 'violent themed' conflict. I can only cite old movies because I don't watch them at all any more.

Risky Business and Weird Science both had scenes of near takeovers by thugs. Yes, they were resolved by other means, but I saw no reason for those storylines at all.

There were many, many more with more extreme examples, but I'm not going there.

There is a story series on another more graphic and less moderated site called 'Surrendering Sara'. It has some great sections, but there are too many that go to the dark side.

 

[SimonDoom]

That's not conflict.


.

In story terms, it is, but we may just be quibbling over definitions. Conflict can be almost anything in a story. It's an obstacle, a challenge -- something that is in the way of the protagonist fulfilling his/her goal, purpose, or quest. It's the thing that creates dramatic tension and makes a story interesting.

A story about two people who go to bed and have sex, with no tension, no obstacle, no reluctance, no anything, is uninteresting to me and not erotic. The thing that makes it interesting is conflict, broadly defined.

If you're just saying you don't like violence, then that's understandable. But conflict is much broader than violence.

 

[KeithD]

But conflict is much broader than violence.

Perhaps a more precise term for it in short stories is "dilemma."

 

[yukonnights]

In story terms, it is, but we may just be quibbling over definitions. Conflict can be almost anything in a story. It's an obstacle, a challenge -- something that is in the way of the protagonist fulfilling his/her goal, purpose, or quest. It's the thing that creates dramatic tension and makes a story interesting.

A story about two people who go to bed and have sex, with no tension, no obstacle, no reluctance, no anything, is uninteresting to me and not erotic. The thing that makes it interesting is conflict, broadly defined.

If you're just saying you don't like violence, then that's understandable. But conflict is much broader than violence.

Some of the most common 'conflicts' in real life are those that live in our minds. Doubts, fear of someone's opinion, an unwilling spouse/partner, wishing for something but not pursuing it, etc. As someone said above, these conflicts don't imply or need to be violent.

I find these quite handy in erotic stories. Say, Bob desperately desires to explore BDSM, but Angela is reluctant because of her religious upbringing. Just sitting here I can think of a number of directions this "conflict" could take the story...and resolve happily in the end...or not, depending on the way the author wants it. And all the conflict started in conversations in bed together

 

[Kantarii]

Some of the most common 'conflicts' in real life are those that live in our minds. Doubts, fear of someone's opinion, an unwilling spouse/partner, wishing for something but not pursuing it, etc. As someone said above, these conflicts don't imply or need to be violent.

I find these quite handy in erotic stories. Say, Bob desperately desires to explore BDSM, but Angela is reluctant because of her religious upbringing. Just sitting here I can think of a number of directions this "conflict" could take the story...and resolve happily in the end...or not, depending on the way the author wants it. And all the conflict started in conversations in bed together

That’s an important note. Internal conflict is central to a lot of my stories. I prefer that type over a physical conflict in a story, but physical conflict shouldn’t be ruled out entirely either.
Kant.

 

[Kantarii]

I want to read that story!!

Now, see, if you are wanting to read that kind of story, it shows there is a readership that enjoys the background things going on in stories. That’s reassuring because I want to read those kinds of stories, tooKant

 

[Bramblethorn]

In story terms, it is, but we may just be quibbling over definitions. Conflict can be almost anything in a story. It's an obstacle, a challenge -- something that is in the way of the protagonist fulfilling his/her goal, purpose, or quest. It's the thing that creates dramatic tension and makes a story interesting.

I'd be interested in people's thoughts on this one: W. Somerset Maugham, Salvatore. Where does this fit into the discussion around conflict in short stories?

The story does touch on various kinds of conflicts and dilemmas - boy meets girl, boy gets sick, boy loses girl, boy finds different girl - but they don't seem to be there to create tension.

 

[gordo12]

Why would you get pissed off about that? As long as the story is good why would it matter whether that was one of the author's motives?

I'm very candid about the fact that I want to reach out to and expand the audience for my stories. Since the Literotica readership is, to some degree, segregated by its categories, submitting stories to different categories allows one to reach more readers. I don't see how doing that is worthy of criticism.

I also see it as an interesting artistic challenge to take on new types of stories, with different erotic emphases. Again, that strikes me as something to salute, not to condemn.

If I'm reading your post correctly, I think you misunderstood me. My definition of a category hopper is someone who (hypothetically) posts let's say an openly gay male story in say Romance instead of GM.

Some are trolls and some are authors looking to attract the odd person not offended by the content.

That kind of behaviour pisses me off. The site has a structure and if the authors can't be bothered to respect it why should the readers respect the authors in their comments. It's bad behaviour and it generates more bad behaviour.

I get that categorization isn't always an exact science, but some authors deliberately ignore them.

An author that takes story writing challenges in different categories is just fine. I have stories in LW and Sci Fi myself.

 

[TornConflict]

I hate stories that are walls of text. No dialog or banter but just an entire story where someone keeps explaining everything or what other are saying without dialog. It drive me nuts.

I don't begrudge anyone their kink or weird perversion. I think everyone has them. I recently wrote both and incest and loving wives story. Neither are really my thing but I thought I had neat ideas. I can't read any story where the hero gets shit on for 20 pages and keeps making the same mistakes. I also can't do stories about guys who can't make up their mind about what they want.

A while back an author I really really like wrote a story where the hero for like 6 chapters kept having women throwing themselves at him but he kept passing on them because of weird small character flaws they had. Or the woman would pass on him for some tiny detail that should never factor into any relationship.Then he found a woman at the end who was the perfect woman and I thought she was the most boring character. It felt like the author was venting about his own relationship problems and I want to give feedback to get out of your own way.

 

[Kantarii]

Honestly, if you don’t like something - why read or vote on it. Just move to something else. Hate is a powerful word and should be used with caution.

I hate oatmeal. I don’t eat it. Do you eat oatmeal cream pies? Yes. What the fuck?!?! I thought you said you hated oatmeal? I do. Moral of the story - if you put enough sugar on shit, someone will eat it.
kant

Oh and thinking that Romance is strictly for m/f couples is crazy. That’s like saying romance can’t exist between two men or two women. Love isn’t absolute in those terms.

 

[ChasingAnna]

So if someone wrote a story about two bisexual guys and put it in Romance instead of the gay male category, you’d object? You’re basically saying Romance can’t exist outside a m/f relationship. That’s messed up. Love and affection aren’t absolute and go beyond gender. Thankfully, Laurel respects an author’s decision when they post storiesthat cross into different categories.

That's not what I got at all from what he wrote. I think he's talking about an author writing 3 stories about two bisexual males on a space ship. They post one to romance, one to sci find, and one to gay male to try and shop around for audience.

 

[yukonnights]

I'd be interested in people's thoughts on this one: W. Somerset Maugham, Salvatore. Where does this fit into the discussion around conflict in short stories?

The story does touch on various kinds of conflicts and dilemmas - boy meets girl, boy gets sick, boy loses girl, boy finds different girl - but they don't seem to be there to create tension.

I see an very intentional arc in it. I see the conflicts (or have imagined I do ) First, the mutual first love of youth and the plans for a future was set up.

Conflict #1 Love interrupted by military service...okay, he'll soon be back and Love can go forward...he weeps like a child and is very miserable...but he endures.

Conflict #2 The girl he loves is not there to meet him when he gets home...he endures and will go to her.

Conflict #3 His love and her parents have rejected him because he will never be fully well again...he understands a woman must have a strong man to provide, it's not her fault, etc.

Conflict #4 He endures his eventual wife's hatred of his first Love and Salvator's continued good words about her, etc.

The various conflicts were set up to test and try to break Salvator's "goodness"..."the rarest, the most precious and the loveliest [quality] that anyone can have."

 

[yukonnights]

If I'm reading your post correctly, I think you misunderstood me. My definition of a category hopper is someone who (hypothetically) posts let's say an openly gay male story in say Romance instead of GM.

Some are trolls and some are authors looking to attract the odd person not offended by the content.

That kind of behaviour pisses me off. The site has a structure and if the authors can't be bothered to respect it why should the readers respect the authors in their comments. It's bad behaviour and it generates more bad behaviour.

I get that categorization isn't always an exact science, but some authors deliberately ignore them.

An author that takes story writing challenges in different categories is just fine. I have stories in LW and Sci Fi myself.

First, here's my take on the whole idea of "hating a story". HATE; verb [with object]feel intense or passionate dislike. I have been reading as many stories as my eyes will hold up to in the current Valentine's Day Contest. They have ranged from outstanding, to very mediocre but written cleanly, to very poorly written. None of them really stroked all my feathers the way I like them to be. I find it very silly to let a fictional story elicit "intense or passionate dislike".

As to "category hopping"; The example of a Gay Male romance being placed in the Romance Category as being an attempt at tricking someone into something they didn't want...or outright trollish behavior...is to ignore the fact that there are same-gender romances. Now, given the fact that there's still a lot of people who "hate" most everyone except there own kind, I might agree that it was an unwise choice by the author.

However, I have a very well received Romance which involves both Transgender and Lesbian themes. This is a romance and at my request it was placed there.

Back to the "hate" issue. I realize this may be a lot of hyperbole. Let's soften it to dislike. In all those stories I've been reading, I was able to appreciate the quality of some...and in those not yet quite yet finished on the technical learning curve, I read through the mistakes and was touched by the desire to express and show a piece of the author's heart and soul...it was a beautiful and vulnerable sharing of another person's desires for love and a happy life...and thus I enjoyed it.

I say; Beware of hate and bitterness of heart...lest we become that which we feed.

 

[Bramblethorn]

That's not what I got at all from what he wrote. I think he's talking about an author writing 3 stories about two bisexual males on a space ship. They post one to romance, one to sci find, and one to gay male to try and shop around for audience.

*waves hand* Hi. I'm one of those category-hoppers. I reject the suggestion that this is a bad thing.

Anybody who posts stories on Literotica is "shopping for an audience". Why else would we go to the trouble of submitting them, if not to draw eyeballs to our work?

Of course, most of us want to find the right eyeballs, people who will enjoy reading what we've written. But authors who write stories with same-sex aspects are disadvantaged in that, because of how the category system works.

I mostly write stories about female-female relationships, but that's never the only theme in those stories. I've written female-female horror, BDSM, romance, SF/F, poetry... sometimes several of those things at once.

But when it comes time to submit a story, I can only put it in one category. I have to decide whether to put my F-F-SF/F in "Lesbian Sex" (and miss out on all the readers who might enjoy the SF/F aspects but aren't looking in LS) or put in in SF/F and miss all readers who'd miss the Lesbian elements. Every time I submit a story, I have to make that choice about what chunk of my potential readership I'm going to forego.

For an author who's writing a lot of Male-Male Love In Space stories, it's reasonable enough to post some of that to GM and some to SF/F in the hope of finding readers for both those aspects of the story. (Category-hopping within a single series doesn't seem to be terribly effective, because many readers won't click on a Chapter 3 if they haven't already read 1 and 2, but it doesn't have to be a single series.)

tl;dr - blame the category system, not the authors who are just trying to find readers within the limitations that the category system imposes.

 

[Bramblethorn]

The various conflicts were set up to test and try to break Salvator's "goodness"..."the rarest, the most precious and the loveliest [quality] that anyone can have."

I agree - but I would say that it's a story with conflicts, not about those conflicts. Each of the ones you identify is a device to support the central theme - WSM's depiction of Salvatore's goodness - rather than being the core of the story.

I may have misread people here, but I got the impression some were arguing that conflict needs to be at the centre of a short story, which I don't think is true of this one. But maybe I'm arguing against a stray man?

 

[Kantarii]

First, here's my take on the whole idea of "hating a story". HATE; verb [with object]feel intense or passionate dislike. I have been reading as many stories as my eyes will hold up to in the current Valentine's Day Contest. They have ranged from outstanding, to very mediocre but written cleanly, to very poorly written. None of them really stroked all my feathers the way I like them to be. I find it very silly to let a fictional story elicit "intense or passionate dislike".

As to "category hopping"; The example of a Gay Male romance being placed in the Romance Category as being an attempt at tricking someone into something they didn't want...or outright trollish behavior...is to ignore the fact that there are same-gender romances. Now, given the fact that there's still a lot of people who "hate" most everyone except there own kind, I might agree that it was an unwise choice by the author.

However, I have a very well received Romance which involves both Transgender and Lesbian themes. This is a romance and at my request it was placed there.

Back to the "hate" issue. I realize this may be a lot of hyperbole. Let's soften it to dislike. In all those stories I've been reading, I was able to appreciate the quality of some...and in those not yet quite yet finished on the technical learning curve, I read through the mistakes and was touched by the desire to express and show a piece of the author's heart and soul...it was a beautiful and vulnerable sharing of another person's desires for love and a happy life...and thus I enjoyed it.

I say; Beware of hate and bitterness of heart...lest we become that which we feed.

I’m glad I wasn’t the only one to see romance exists beyond m/f couples
Kant

 

[yukonnights]

I agree - but I would say that it's a story with conflicts, not about those conflicts. Each of the ones you identify is a device to support the central theme - WSM's depiction of Salvatore's goodness - rather than being the core of the story.

I may have misread people here, but I got the impression some were arguing that conflict needs to be at the centre of a short story, which I don't think is true of this one. But maybe I'm arguing against a stray man?

If I gave that impression, it was unintentional. It seems a fine line for a story to be with conflicts but not be about them. The bulk of this story was telling about the conflicts and it was primarily in the end we saw what impact/change/effect they had on Salvatore. Thus, the crises both carried the story along and provided a foil/contrast to how Salvatore dealt with said crises.

I think it's interesting to note, that the same "crises" could have been exactly the same, but if the author had wanted; The theme could have been opposite of the original. Salvatore could have become a bitter old man full of hate, etc.

Are the conflicts the center of the story? I'm trying to picture how either option of themes could have been achieved in an interesting and powerful way without them. While not the theme/message themselves, it would have been a bland and boring "telling" of his goodness without them.

In general, I think it could be said that every word of a story is a device to support the theme/message. They all stand together as a whole be they conflicts, descriptions, settings, emotions, thoughts,etc. The story is the whole, the theme is the soul and the rest the body. Maybe inseparable is the best answer.

 

[yukonnights]

I’m glad I wasn’t the only one to see romance exists beyond m/f couples
Kant

It's like a long winding trip through the hills toward the mountains...the road goes up and then back down...but it is ever climbing toward the summit ~

 

[rutger5]

But when it comes time to submit a story, I can only put it in one category. I have to decide whether to put my F-F-SF/F in "Lesbian Sex" (and miss out on all the readers who might enjoy the SF/F aspects but aren't looking in LS) or put in in SF/F and miss all readers who'd miss the Lesbian elements. Every time I submit a story, I have to make that choice about what chunk of my potential readership I'm going to forego.

For an author who's writing a lot of Male-Male Love In Space stories, it's reasonable enough to post some of that to GM and some to SF/F in the hope of finding readers for both those aspects of the story. (Category-hopping within a single series doesn't seem to be terribly effective, because many readers won't click on a Chapter 3 if they haven't already read 1 and 2, but it doesn't have to be a single series.)

tl;dr - blame the category system, not the authors who are just trying to find readers within the limitations that the category system imposes.

Of course there can be lesbian romance or gay male sci-fi but the category system as set up is an obstacle to such stories finding their maximum audience. This would happen with a hetero sci-fi story with bdsm too. But for all the positives at Lit this is a negative along with various category purists who believe "their" category can only approach a theme in the way they want. Such readers are rewarded every time they get their way and drive a writer to post where they"belong". Don't see it changing. It's funny, I've posted stories at other sites and I doubt the readers at these other places are more enlightened or less prejudiced yet I never saw the issues like here about staying in your lane. I think having a proper tag system being the big reason. Also agree with some that hate is too strong a word for stories one doesn't like.

 

[SimonDoom]

If I'm reading your post correctly, I think you misunderstood me. My definition of a category hopper is someone who (hypothetically) posts let's say an openly gay male story in say Romance instead of GM.

Some are trolls and some are authors looking to attract the odd person not offended by the content.

That kind of behaviour pisses me off. The site has a structure and if the authors can't be bothered to respect it why should the readers respect the authors in their comments. It's bad behaviour and it generates more bad behaviour.

I get that categorization isn't always an exact science, but some authors deliberately ignore them.

An author that takes story writing challenges in different categories is just fine. I have stories in LW and Sci Fi myself.

Got it. Yes, I misunderstood you.

I'm not sure how much of this behavior there is, though. You may be more aware of it than I am. I think people often are genuinely puzzled about the choice of category for publication, and they do the best they can either to get the most readers or to get the most appreciative readers.

 

[Bramblethorn]

Got it. Yes, I misunderstood you.

I'm not sure how much of this behavior there is, though. You may be more aware of it than I am. I think people often are genuinely puzzled about the choice of category for publication, and they do the best they can either to get the most readers or to get the most appreciative readers.

Exactly.

I'm not clear on whether gordo12 is talking about stories with both gay male and romance themes, or stories with GM and no romance at all, but either way - Laurel vets submissions. She has the power to change the category if she thinks the author got it wrong.

If Laurel lets some stories through to Romance that have male-male elements, presumably she decided that those stories have enough romance to qualify. Or she skimmed and mis-classified, in which case readers can use the report functionality to alert her to the mistake, instead of getting mad at the author. But if she decides to keep those stories where they are, then it's the readers who need to update their understanding of the category system, not the authors.

 

[gordo12]

Exactly.

I'm not clear on whether gordo12 is talking about stories with both gay male and romance themes, or stories with GM and no romance at all, but either way - Laurel vets submissions. She has the power to change the category if she thinks the author got it wrong.

If Laurel lets some stories through to Romance that have male-male elements, presumably she decided that those stories have enough romance to qualify. Or she skimmed and mis-classified, in which case readers can use the report functionality to alert her to the mistake, instead of getting mad at the author. But if she decides to keep those stories where they are, then it's the readers who need to update their understanding of the category system, not the authors.

Gordo never mentioned the word romance in his post. Somebody else immediately changed the parameters and off everybody went waving torches and threatening to burn those who dared.

Personally I have NO problem with a gay romance story being in Romance. Maybe I don't like gay stuff, but I will defend the right to create and read it.

The caveat is they're going to take a lot of flack from an otherwise hetero audience. It would be smarter to post in gay and get a more appreciative audience.

So let's set parameters that make sense. A gay male in a gay bar toilet pulling a train. Let's post it in Incest. And no, his Brother or Father wasn't the twentieth in line therefore making it a loving gay incest story.

 

[gordo12]

it's the readers who need to update their understanding of the category system, not the authors.

Sadly all too many new authors make no attempt to study the category system. They just see Loving Wives and in goes their trash. Nothing to do with the category.

There should be a test...

 

[Bramblethorn]

Gordo never mentioned the word romance in his post. Somebody else immediately changed the parameters and off everybody went waving torches and threatening to burn those who dared.

Apologies, I must've misremembered. It's been stupid hot here (45C/113F yesterday) and my concentration is shot.

So let's set parameters that make sense. A gay male in a gay bar toilet pulling a train. Let's post it in Incest. And no, his Brother or Father wasn't the twentieth in line therefore making it a loving gay incest story.

That does sound like mis-classification. Do you know for sure that the author put it there on purpose, though?

 

[Blind_Justice]

Hate is too much. If I don't like it, I stop and spend my time with something more worthwhile.

What irritates the shit out of me though are great ideas ruined by piss-poor execution.

Take Cameron's Avatar for example. Strike one was "Unobtanium". A film with that budget, playing it so serious, and then a name for the plot McGuffin straight out of a parody writer's handbook.
Strike two - the naked/not so naked aliens. Yeah, Americans and their well-known aversion to nudity. But then they should have been consistent and NOT teased the nekkidness. I didn't stick around for the rest of Dances with Wolves In Space".

Or that one Urban Fantasy futa vampire story I was asked to check out. The author set up his world saying futa were these incredibly rare beings because the process was so risky and expensive ... and then there were strip clubs full of them and Christian rallies to ban and possibly burn them at the stake. If they are so rare and special, how come they have such a visible public profile? How many here know about the guy with two cocks?

How can strippers afford to undergo the treatment if it is so expensive? Why would someone who had this treatment, which was risky and expensive, work as a stripper, which does pay much less than, say, a high-society escort? I fell off my chair when the story's protag, a freelance artist living in a downtown Manhattan condo big enough for her own fencing studio (of fucking course) went for the treatment (paid for by her vampire futa mistress) and the head nurse, a futa of course, greeted her with cock out and leaking all over the place. Very hygienic.

Sure, Fantasy and all that. But when you write in a recognizable setting, like the analogue of current New York, please have people behave like people. And stick to your guns. You can't have "rare and mysterious" one moment and every third character popping up being one of the rare and mysterious breed.

Yeah, I'm fucking anal about world building. Sue me.