Storytelling

[Areala-chan]

A lot of readers (and writers) sleep on me. The reasons are many.

Is it because you're soft? That's the best reason I've found to sleep on someone.

 

[intim8]

Many readers (myself included) are chasing stories with a particular twist or kink. Thus, if that is absent, it doesn't matter how much we like the characters, the story will fall flat for those readers.

I'm starting to go more the opposite. More literary stories with sex rather than stories that build toward sex. The the latter can still be an example of the former, but I'm not specifically trying to design stories that way.

I'm willing to not appeal to the readers looking to satisfy a particular kink, though, for a limited set of kinks, some will still find that.

My latest story was extraordinarily well-recieved in Romance, and it is more along these lines than my previous, with relatively little sex. Though the caveat is that Romance is generally going to be more amenable to that.

My three top WIPs right now are definitely not stories that build to sex, but they do have a lot of sex in them that is very central to what is going on. They're almost mainstream-able stories that have graphic sex in them that could be toned down to an R rating and still work. One has a pretty heavy emphasis on incest though, so that could work for some of those readers. But the incestuous relationship is not the payoff of the story, it happens midway through and drives further developments of the plot.

 

[Bramblethorn]

Edit me senpai

My PMs are open

 

[happyyy_]

As a new writer, this thread has been really helpful. I struggle with storytelling a lot, so I hope it is something that can be learned! I am just not always sure where to turn for help or how to get better. I have read some writing textbooks and watched (most of) Brandon Sanderson's lecture series. I should probably read novels more critically too. It just feels often like my stories lack 'life'. How do you guys go about flexing your storytelling muscles and getting better?

I have read a lot of stories with terrible grammar and punctuation. Or in scenes when the setting is never described or very ambiguous. But I devour them still because the storytelling is like a drug. I am not sure if it's because the writing just hits everything I am expecting and wanted, or if the writer is just really gifted. It's interesting to consider.

 

[StillStunned]

Nice to read that I'm not the only one who's critical of basic language skills...

 

[Areala-chan]

How do you guys go about flexing your storytelling muscles and getting better?

Good stories have a flow. When I first started writing, I always felt like I had to tell the reader everything that I, as a writer, knew about the setting and the characters because if I didn't tell them, how were they supposed to know? These weren't stories I was publishing anywhere (this was before the rise and proliferation of the internet), so it was just stuff handwritten in notebooks, so my only source of feedback was to read other things, other authors, other styles, and try to disassemble them and figure out how they did things so well while all of my work seemed so unlike theirs.

So then I started trying to write like my favorite writers because, hey, if it worked for them.... But that was a terrible way to go about getting better at storytelling, because as it turns out, I wasn't Stephen King, or Alan Dean Foster, or Rosemary Wells, or Gordon Korman, or Richard Laymon.

That was deeply unsatisfying and a bit depressing. So I started reading my favorite people a little more critically, trying to dissect what they were doing, why I enjoyed it so much, and how I could borrow that technique but shape it to my own voice, and that's when I started becoming a better writer.

What I loved about Foster was his ability to look at a story he was adapting from the screen and inject little bits of his own self into it without taking over the story, but also making it feel like he's sharing secrets with the reader. One of the earliest things of his I read was his novelization of Alien, which opens in such a beautiful, conversational manner that over the course of four pages you get to know the seven human (and one feline) residents of the Nostromo faster than you do by watching the movie. Foster's language humanizes and anthromorphizes even the non-human, inhuman, and inanimate characters of the story. So I filed that away.

King tells his stories, at least his good ones, the way he'd tell them to you directly if you and he were sitting on his front porch after a nice dinner on a beautiful summer evening as the fireflies were starting their dances in the field on the other side of the road. He's got a folksy, informed but informal way of dispensing information, sometimes rambling, but mostly entertaining and always easy to follow. So I filed that away.

Laymon wrote his stories at a breakneck pace, to the point where you can put down one of his five hundred page horror novels and feel like only two hundred and fifty pages have gone by. He did this by using dialog, both inner monologue and outward conversation, to its fullest extent. His characters verbally spar and play with one another even in the more serious moments, and this reveals an awful lot about them without him needing to tell you anything point blank. So I filed that away.

Korman and Wells both write young protagonists exceptionally well. Despite having once been a teenager, that was many years ago and I'm not the only adult who has forgotten an awful lot of what it feels like to be one. So I filed that away.

Eventually by analyzing and incorporating those bits from all those authors (and dozens more) that I liked, and figuring out how to use them with my own voice instead of theirs, my writing, and thus my storytelling, got better. How much better is up for debate, but that's for my readers to determine.

 

[ElectricBlue]

As a new writer, this thread has been really helpful. I struggle with storytelling a lot, so I hope it is something that can be learned! I am just not always sure where to turn for help or how to get better. I have read some writing textbooks and watched (most of) Brandon Sanderson's lecture series. I should probably read novels more critically too. It just feels often like my stories lack 'life'. How do you guys go about flexing your storytelling muscles and getting better?

Write more stories, find your own natural style. Write about life, your fantasies, what moves you; write about people enjoying sex, being alive, being in love.

My advice - don't read "how to" books or listen to podcasts or watch videos, don't pay attention to advice you receive on the internet. What would they know about you?

Write more, is the only way to become a better writer. Start small, get better, write without constraint, dance like no-one is watching, all of those things people say. Make mistakes, fuck it up, fix it next time. Write the next story, then the next one, then the one after that. There will come a point where you think, you know what, I can do this. That's when you become a writer.

I have read a lot of stories with terrible grammar and punctuation. Or in scenes when the setting is never described or very ambiguous. But I devour them still because the storytelling is like a drug. I am not sure if it's because the writing just hits everything I am expecting and wanted, or if the writer is just really gifted. It's interesting to consider.

Some writers are gifted, yes, but I bet they all started with something small.

 

[Erozetta]

Hmm. I have no idea where I fall on this.

I know the grammar and writing rules enough that I can follow them pretty easily, but I'm writing for a free site and I genuinely just don't care enough anymore to put hours and hours of work into perfecting it.

I just write.

People either like not or they don't and I don't really care which 'cause at least the story is out of my head and I can go to sleep.

Though, I am interested in becoming a better writer, just not for the stuff I post here. I've been focused on posting experimental stories to try and push the worst parts of my writing to the surface for complaints. Sadly, it's not fucking working 'cause people are playing nice.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

Hmm. I have no idea where I fall on this.

I know the grammar and writing rules enough that I can follow them pretty easily, but I'm writing for a free site and I genuinely just don't care enough anymore to put hours and hours of work into perfecting it.

That's part of my struggle, at some point there are diminishing returns. The first pass catches the vast majority of the mistakes. The second pass gets a few more, but after that...
The time it would take me to make things "perfect" (for a given value of perfection) I could be writing several thousand words for another story.
What's the best use of my limited writing time?

 

[Bramblethorn]

Hmm. I have no idea where I fall on this.

I know the grammar and writing rules enough that I can follow them pretty easily, but I'm writing for a free site and I genuinely just don't care enough anymore to put hours and hours of work into perfecting it.

There's no "perfect", just "good enough", and each reader draws that line in their own place.

 

[TheWritingGroup]

Actual words I just typed into a story file:

"... why are we doing a whole page of introductory dialogue before the story even starts? All of this has to go."

Yeah, I started a story and my main character and one of the supporting characters got into a long conversation about the setup. Even worse, the dialogue is incomprehensible unless you remember every word of the story this one is a sequel to.

So 100% of it goes.

-Annie

 

[Cagivagurl]

One of the things I look for that separates great writers from decent ones is the proof that they understand the rules of writing so that they know when and how to break them. I'm perfectly willing to overlook the occasional spelling or grammar error, because I know all too well the horror of having pressed 'Submit' only to read through the version once published and realize I missed something terribly obvious.

But much like @yowser wrote, if your attention to the bare basics is sloppy, that tells me you don't understand the rules of writing. If you don't understand the rules, then at best your writing will be average, and I've got no time for average.

For me....
It's exactly the opposite.
I care not one bit for missing commas, or poor grammar. Rules.... Blah....
For me, so long as it's understandable. All I care about is the story telling. The characters and the dialogue....
If I sit down to listen to a story teller. I don't care about whether the narrator is well spoken, in many ways, their dialect, their slang, their accent. That's what drags you in. So long as they tell a good story.
I care not one jot about the technicalities of the actual writing...
It's all about the story.

Cagivagurl

 

[pink_silk_glove]

For me, so long as it's understandable.

Well then you care about the grammar, since the only reason anyone cares about the grammar is to clearly understand the words and sentences. Such is the purpose of grammar.

 

[Cagivagurl]

Well then you care about the grammar, since the only reason anyone cares about the grammar is to clearly understand the words and sentences. Such is the purpose of grammar.

I only care about being readable.
Don't care about commas, fullstops, spelling. So long as it's readable, all I care about is the story...
I know other people feel differently. Grammar and punctuation are irrelevant. So long as it's laid out so it's readable.

Cagivagurl

 

[pink_silk_glove]

I only care about being readable.
Don't care about commas, fullstops, spelling. So long as it's readable, all I care about is the story...
I know other people feel differently. Grammar and punctuation are irrelevant. So long as it's laid out so it's readable.

Cagivagurl

lets not use any punctuation at all then and see how well you understand the prose the spelling is perfect but thats irrelevant having to find the beginnings and endings of sentences without periods nor capitals certainly changes the reading experience whether thats for the benefit or the detriment you can decide how would you like your eggs notice the lack of a question mark

 

[Bramblethorn]

lets not use any punctuation at all then and see how well you understand the prose the spelling is perfect but thats irrelevant having to find the beginnings and endings of sentences without periods nor capitals certainly changes the reading experience whether thats for the benefit or the detriment you can decide how would you like your eggs notice the lack of a question mark

Spaces between words? Luxury.

 

[Cagivagurl]

lets not use any punctuation at all then and see how well you understand the prose the spelling is perfect but thats irrelevant having to find the beginnings and endings of sentences without periods nor capitals certainly changes the reading experience whether thats for the benefit or the detriment you can decide how would you like your eggs notice the lack of a question mark

I am happy to read without. I think most people can.
It makes it easier with them, but it doesn't detract from what you were trying to say.
I have read stories that were completely unreadable. What I am saying is, I don't care about the technical points.
So long as its readable, and a good story that holds my interest. Then I am happy...
For me, and I speak ponly for myself.
The necessary ingredient is storytelling. I have read stuff in Lit, that is probably beautifully written. Perfect, ever full stop and comma perfectly inserted..
If the story is sterile and lacks emotion. Then I'm out.
Storytelling, is like humour. Some people can tell jokes and make us laugh, others can't do it...

It's a gift...

Cagicagurl

 

[TheRedChamber]

I am happy to read without. I think most people can.
It makes it easier with them, but it doesn't detract from what you were trying to say.
I have read stories that were completely unreadable. What I am saying is, I don't care about the technical points.
So long as its readable, and a good story that holds my interest. Then I am happy...
For me, and I speak ponly for myself.
The necessary ingredient is storytelling. I have read stuff in Lit, that is probably beautifully written. Perfect, ever full stop and comma perfectly inserted..
If the story is sterile and lacks emotion. Then I'm out.
Storytelling, is like humour. Some people can tell jokes and make us laugh, others can't do it...

It's a gift...

Cagicagurl

For what it' worth, I read your latest story yesterday, and while very good, you were missing a whole bunch of either opening or closing quotations marks which made it confusing if one sentence in a chain was internal dialgoue or spoken outloud. Example:

The coin dropped, and my head snapped back. Hang on... Did you say you love me?"

Even if we assume that it is spoken, it's still not clear if the MC says "Hang on...did you say you love me?" or just "Did you say you love me?"

As a reader it did slow me down and have me scratching my head momentarily. And there were quite a few of them.

 

[Cagivagurl]

For what it' worth, I read your latest story yesterday, and while very good, you were missing a whole bunch of either opening or closing quotations marks which made it confusing if one sentence in a chain was internal dialgoue or spoken outloud. Example:


Even if we assume that it is spoken, it's still not clear if the MC says "Hang on...did you say you love me?" or just "Did you say you love me?"

As a reader it did slow me down and have me scratching my head momentarily. And there were quite a few of them.

Hey,
Thanks for reading. Appreciate the feedback.
Without trying to sound argumentative. I recognise my weaknesses. I am fortunate to have some very generous people helping me. I am grateful for their assistance and guidance.
I will never criticise anything they offer, because it is better than what I am capable of...
I write for fun, and post stories on a free web site.
I guess, I'd like to be better but really can't be bothered....
I guess I approach my own stories, as I do my reading...
Punctuation and grammar, don't worry me...
For those that are annoyed by it. There is always the back button. (That wasn't meant to sound confrontational". Simply if it does worry readers, and I know there are many who feel that way. They can easily just back out.

Again, thank you for offering your thoughts. Feedback and advice is always appreciated.

Cagivagurl

 

[TheWritingGroup]

I write for fun, and post stories on a free web site.
I guess, I'd like to be better but really can't be bothered....
I guess I approach my own stories, as I do my reading...
Punctuation and grammar, don't worry me...

This is a thread about storytelling. It's all about writing better. I suspect that's why @TheRedChamber was posting suggestions.

-Rocco

 

[Cagivagurl]

This is a thread about storytelling. It's all about writing better. I suspect that's why @TheRedChamber was posting suggestions.

-Rocco

I have no issues with the suggestions.
I always appreciate feedback. Regardless of whether it's good or bad.
I believe they were offered in good faith.

My reply was more about my personal preference. Which is storytelling over technical accuracy.

Cagivagurl

 

[ElectricBlue]

My reply was more about my personal preference. Which is storytelling over technical accuracy.

But if you have both, aren't you well ahead of the game?

It's as if someone says, let's climb a mountain; and you're saying, no, a hill will do. But the view is so much better. No, I'm fine on the hill. Odd.

 

[Cagivagurl]

But if you have both, aren't you well ahead of the game?

It's as if someone says, let's climb a mountain; and you're saying, no, a hill will do. But the view is so much better. No, I'm fine on the hill. Odd.

No, you misunderstand....
What I am saying is. I value Story telling over grammatical accuracy. A perfect story would have both...However, for me the most valuable component is the storytelling ability of the writer...
I can live with poor grammar. I cannot live with poor storytelling.

Cagivagurl

 

[pink_silk_glove]

What I am saying is. I value Story telling over grammatical accuracy. A perfect story would have both...However, for me the most valuable component is the storytelling ability of the writer...

Yes, so you do care about grammar.

 

[AwkwardlySet]

I don't think that the extreme standpoints have much validity in this particular sense. I also don't think anyone here really meant to present such a standpoint. To me, it all seemed like a hyperbole in order to make a point.
While I also value storytelling a bit more than writing well, I think it goes without saying that a good story has to have a certain minimum of being "written well" and a minimum of grammatical correctness in order not to spoil the flow and readability of the story too much. Also, no matter how well and correctly you write, your story has to have a minimum of storytelling. Otherwise, there is nothing to be read in such a story but well-crafted yet empty sentences.
There is too much of a dependency between these two to completely disregard either of them.