The search for plot

[StillStunned]

(I similarly see some people defending the claim that your main characters should always be likeable by redefining "likeable" into "someone we want to read about.")

How about "engaging" or "relatable"? That applies to both the protagonist and, if you have one, the antagonist.

 

[intim8]

I think that making the terms so vague is not actually helpful, because if you can make it fit anything then it doesn't really tell you anything.

It doesn't mean just anything. It means the thing that defines the other side of the central conflict. That is definitely not always a person. "Man against man, man against nature, man against himself" and all that.

loosening the definitions to make them still fit, somehow.

Abstracting something is not 'loosening' the definition willy-nilly. In the basic structure of a story, there is a conflict, and there is something that is the primary opposition to the protagonist.

If you don't want to use 'antagonist' for that when it isn't a person, what word would you use for discussing it?

 

[NotWise]

It doesn't mean just anything. It means the thing that defines the other side of the central conflict. That is definitely not always a person. "Man against man, man against nature, man against himself" and all that.

Abstracting something is not 'loosening' the definition willy-nilly. In the basic structure of a story, there is a conflict, and there is something that is the primary opposition to the protagonist.

If you don't want to use 'antagonist' for that when it isn't a person, what word would you use for discussing it?

"Conflict" and "Setting" come to mind, because most of what you're trying to call an antagonist are the conflict and the setting. Your examples of "man against man, man against nature, man against himself" are conflicts. Terrifying storms are settings. Now, if some madman is trying to chop your cabin door down in the middle of a terrifying storm -- then you have an antagonist.

I introduced "antagonist" to this thread. I used the word to refer to a character in a context where the OP had characters and setting, but he needed conflict and plot. I'll stick to the recommendation that adding an antagonist (another character) to the story is a way to gel the plot and conflict. I'll stick to that. I've used antagonists in quite a few of my stories. I wouldn't recommend "change your setting" as a solution to the problem.

I'll admit that not all antagonists are human. Kujo (for instance) was a terrifying antagonist, but animals can be characters, and they frequently are. Bambi comes to mind, as do Lassie, Rin-tin-tin and Old Yeller.

 

[Britva415]

Really, that does a service to no-one.

Clearly not to you it don't, but

 

[TheArsonist]

Abstracting something is not 'loosening' the definition willy-nilly. In the basic structure of a story, there is a conflict, and there is something that is the primary opposition to the protagonist.

Not to nitpick further, but the idea that all stories have one central conflict and one primary protagonist with one thing in primary opposition is not one I would agree with.

If you don't want to use 'antagonist' for that when it isn't a person, what word would you use for discussing it?

In cases where a protagonist struggles against something that isn't an identifiable adversary, I would probably speak of the character's "problem," "obstacle" or "challenge," depending on its nature.

 

[Bramblethorn]

Not to nitpick further, but the idea that all stories have one central conflict and one primary protagonist with one thing in primary opposition is not one I would agree with.

Uh huh. It is not universally agreed that conflict is the only way to create a story: https://artofnarrative.com/2020/07/08/kishotenketsu-exploring-the-four-act-story-structure/

Of course, if one squints hard enough one can always find something that can be framed as some kind of a "conflict", but that doesn't necessarily mean it's a useful way to approach every story. See e.g. My Neighbour Totoro as an example of kishōtenketsu style storytelling.

 

[SimonDoom]

Uh huh. It is not universally agreed that conflict is the only way to create a story: https://artofnarrative.com/2020/07/08/kishotenketsu-exploring-the-four-act-story-structure/

Of course, if one squints hard enough one can always find something that can be framed as some kind of a "conflict", but that doesn't necessarily mean it's a useful way to approach every story. See e.g. My Neighbour Totoro as an example of kishōtenketsu style storytelling.

I agree. There are multiple different ways to describe the development of a story. When I write a story, I don't explicitly ask myself, "What's the conflict?" I write more organically than that. After the fact, I can look back at the story and see it through the prism of a conflict, but there are other ways it could be seen as well.

Maybe it's more helpful to say that a story involves movement--getting from point A to point B. For my own taste, it's probably going to be a more interesting story if there are bumps on the path along the way. You could describe that as conflict, or as something else.

 

[intim8]

Uh huh. It is not universally agreed that conflict is the only way to create a story: https://artofnarrative.com/2020/07/08/kishotenketsu-exploring-the-four-act-story-structure/

Yeah, if you don't have a central conflict, you don't have an antogonist of any kind.

Aside from the main point, I think the author of the artlce was limiting western story structure too much. For example, "inciting incident" is a technique, not a fundamental requirment even when there is a central conflict. It's The Thing To Do in current popular novels, but it is not the only way western storytelling works. And the name 'inciting incident" makes it sound like it has to be some big dramatic thing, which I think can hamstring new-ish writers.

I've read some very good novels where there is no singular incident that establishes the conflict. Instead, there's a slow build-up of minor events that eventually accumulate into a conflict. One example is The Gate House by Nelson deMille that I read a few months ago. I remember telling my wife after maybe three hundred pages that there's no actual story here yet, but I still couldn't put it down.

Kishotenketsu is an interesting structure. As an occasional break from the usual, they can be enjoyable, but I don't think I'd want to regularly read novels written that way. The one I can think of that I read recently that I think qualifies is Murakami's IQ84. I enjoyed it, but I didn't come away with any desire to read more from him, at least not right away. It's been a while since I read Three Body Problem, so I'm not sure if I'm remembering it right, but I think might be one. And on the western side, I'm thinking of Flowers for Algernon.

 

[Gamblnluck]

For me, it's always the opposite. I get the idea for a plot, or at least a premise, and then have to come up with suitable characters for it.

Same here I need an idea to start. I asked a friend for the revenge for a BTB story. He said he heard of a guy who dismantled a car. I'd heard of a guy who bulldozed his house, so I came up with a story about a guy who dismantled his house or rather everything in it. I still incorporated the car but that was a sideplot. To make the story work I set it in an anger management support group like Alcoholics Anonymous with the MC telling his story in stages at various meetings.
Had a few too many tropes, and some of the story was strained but I still enjoyed writing it.
I worked backwards, got a skeleton, then fleshed it out.

 

[Reenigam]

Interesting, the thought of looking for a plot as the last of the necessary components required for a tale, as if it were somehow of the least importance.

Strangely, although among the line-up of boards I see a forum calling itself "Story Ideas", I search in vain for one entitled "characters" or "settings"...

... which tends to raise a question or two...

 

[Katie_Mae]

Interesting, the thought of looking for a plot as the last of the necessary components required for a tale, as if it were somehow of the least importance.

Strangely, although among the line-up of boards I see a forum calling itself "Story Ideas", I search in vain for one entitled "characters" or "settings"...

... which tends to raise a question or two...

What questions does it raise for you?

Characters, setting, premise, plot etc are all ideas which are part of a story idea. There's not a separate forum for "plot development" either.

If you look through the story ideas forum there's plenty of post there where the idea is a setting, a character, a world-building element, a theme etc. Not all the ideas are a complete plot structure.

Think about a story where writer intends it to be a standalone. Then they decide to write a sequel (perhaps after readers have asked for one.) What the writer has at that point is literally everything except the plot, so in that case the plot would have to be one of the last elements they construct.

While I'm a plotter, meaning I generally have a full plot outlined before writing, (and I'll also have the setting and most of the worldbuilding and some done prior to writing too), not all writers are. There's writers who create complex characters, throw them into some sort of situation and just see where the characters take the story as they write it. There's writers who spend years worlldbuilding, inventing their own language and history before thinking about a story they could write in this world.

There's all sorts of different ways to write a novel, and it is quite interesting all the different methods writers use.

 

[Plathfan]

Ask an AI to animate the story for you. Why waste time reading?