"Sub frenzy" and similar stuff

[CutieMouse]

Why some feel the need to label this phenomenon as if it is peculiar to submissives is something that I really do not understand.

I have this overwhelming urge to say something really smart ass and snarky, but I'm not gonna.

 

[JMohegan]

Coming off of my experience with going so deeply into surrender (sub space), not just once now, but twice (2nd time with my primary, but not within a strictly BDSM context), and knowing myself for a very balanced person who is very independent and usually confident and secure, I have to echo what others have said about sub-frenzy being a phenomenon that occurs in real life.

Hi, Neon.

I see several conversations taking place on this thread, and your excellent post seems to be addressing primarily the emotions and needs of a bottom or submissive in the wake of intensive pain play or humiliation play.

This is a very, very different phenomenon from what is described in the Steel article to which Bredon linked. It is also surely very different from whatever goes on in the headspace of a person whose only experience with BDSM is through the computer (e.g., Bredon's "virgin sub").

He spoke about a person who had an "overwhelming desire which couldn't be fulfilled in the flesh". You are speaking about what happens in the immediate aftermath of the time when the desires of the flesh are suddenly fulfilled. Those are very, very different situations. One filled with longings which are nearly 100% fantasy, by definition. The other dealing with the reality of what has just actually taken place.

Regarding what one should do / how far one's responsibility goes towards taking care of one's sub in this instance <.....>

When speaking about the reaction of a bottom or submissive partner to a specific incident of pain play or humiliation play, my personal opinion is that the Top has a responsibility to check that his/her partner is okay in the wake of whatever play occurred, and to make reasonable efforts to help the bottom regain equilibrium.

It is also my personal opinion that it is the bottom's responsibility to inform the Top if he/she is not feeling okay. The Top can't help if he/she doesn't know something's wrong.

Regarding someone who refuses to take some responsibility for hir own actions, especially after your relationship is over, that is a more difficult question. I doubt, btw, that it is only common for virginal subs, although I would guess that anyone who is a stable individual and a more experienced sub would eventually desire and so learn to control and redirect those impulses hirself...

Hope this made some sense???

That made perfect sense to me.

 

[BeachGurl2]

As I've read through these posts, it seems there are several different topics blending into one here. I think that aftercare is something that partners who are intimate outside of play will take care of. Each person is different in what their needs are. Frankly, after a very intense session, I am freezing cold and more than a little shaky, so being wrapped in a warm hug and held for a little while is perfect for me. Yes, I'm emotional, but not so needy that I can't handle it on my own if need be. I probably wouldn't scene with someone who didn't care about me enough to hold me for a few minutes afterward - you know what I mean here, the vanilla equivalent to a guy rolling over and falling asleep on you. But that's more because I'm a touchy feely kind of person so I like being able to curl up with someone afterwards, not so much about the emotional drama of sub drop. I think that many people take aftercare to extremes. Yes, there can be sub drop after an intense scene. I've even had that happen hours after the scene was over and I had moved on to other things in my day - or as late as the next morning. Then there are other times that I'm ready to hit the kitchen and eat whatever I can find. And yet other times when I want to take a shower, get dressed and head out for fun. Each person and each situation are different.

I also think there's something that Cutie stated on another thread that really comes into play and further explains JM's position here. Truly, the drama levels of sub frenzy and sub drop/depression are pretty self involved - I'm talking about the levels that make people do really stupid things. There is a difference between emotionally floundering a bit and being so very needy that you ignore red flags and become just plain stupid about things. But as JM stated, that isn't exclusive to BDSM. Vanilla people do that, too.

It sounds to me, Bredon, that this is something your friend will have to work through. Sure you can let hir know you'll be there, but ultimately, it's about hir, not you.

 

[Bredon]

One filled with longings which are nearly 100% fantasy, by definition. The other dealing with the reality of what has just actually taken place.

JMohegan- I used to think so myself. I have always been the one who laughed out loud when people told me about their "online relationships". I'm not so sure anymore. (though I still find it possible that my initial feeling was accurate).
Dominance and submission are mainly mental things. Also, the words that are written online are real words by real poeple-- if they trigger feelings or reactions, these reactions are not just fantasy-- I'm not quite sure *what* they are-- they certainly aren't the same as RL feelings and reactions. But they also are more then f.e. the feelings you feel when you read a book or watch a movie--
Virtuality irritates me--I'm too old for it

Bredon

 

[JMohegan]

I also think there's something that Cutie stated on another thread that really comes into play

Threads are easily separated and lost, so I'm going to copy CM's post here because I agree that it is very relevant to this discussion.

I don't know that one needs to exsist in a sub-drop/frenzy continuum...

Submissive or not, one is capable of determining (and informing others) of what one needs in order to minimize the risk of "sub drop". I know that for myself, online/telephone intimacy seriously pushes the limits of my ability to remain in a healthy emotional place. That can be minimized by a lengthy chat afterwards, but an hour on the phone does not replace falling asleep in a Lover's arms. The few times I have allowed such intimacy in my Life, I've done so while accepting the [emotional] risks- and made sure the other person knew I'd need a nice long chat to help minimize "issues". It isn't necessarily my partner's job to put me back together should I fall apart; however, we are both responsible to be aware, communicate what's going on, and work with each other, to minimize or avoid situations that will leave either of us in a negative place.

That frenzied feeling also exsists, but (IMO) it is a byproduct of selfishness, and not a lot more. The flip side of sub-frenzy is a dominant partner who veiws themselves as a God to be obeyed without a care in the world as to how their actions impact another... after all, they are a DOM, damnit! IMO, both a "frenzied" submissive and an egotistical dom can easily cure their ills, by remembering it isn't all about *them*, similarly to how a greedy person often finds peace, in an act of charity. It almost amazed me once, how quickly that desperate feeling of need dissapaited, when instead of focusing on how badly I wanted "X", I took the time to consider a voluntary gesture of appreciation/sumbision/goodwill/Friendship/Love, towards my partner...

Originally posted: here

 

[JMohegan]

JMohegan- I used to think so myself. I have always been the one who laughed out loud when people told me about their "online relationships". I'm not so sure anymore. (though I still find it possible that my initial feeling was accurate).

I am not laughing at anyone.

I am going out of my way to avoid comparisons of online to physical D/s, and indeed to avoid making any remarks about online D/s at all.

In the comment you quoted, I was addressing *your* comment from the first post on this thread, in which you wrote: "overwhelming desire which couldn't be fulfilled in the flesh".

You described your partner as a virgin sub. When you refer to hir overwhelming desires that can not be fulfilled, are you not therefore referring to "longings which are nearly 100% fantasy, by definition"? Or have I misunderstood your opening post?

Someone who has never been caned can only fantasize about what it's like to be caned. That's all I was trying to say, and in fact I assumed that I was simply paraphrasing your remarks above.

 

[CutieMouse]

Virtuality irritates me--I'm too old for it

Bredon

That's okay- virtuality irritates me, too... I'm too practical/questioning/serious/cynical for it.

 

[incubus'_sub]

Me too. I see no similarity between the feelings often experienced at the end of a long scene to the described sub frenzy.

Sex of any kind is emotionally & physically draining & it's a given, for me, that partners take care of each other before, during & after. The flavour may determine the type of care required, but not the requirement itself.

To me, this described "frenzy" is just another cop out. Oooohh, I'm just not responsible so I'll whip (myself LOL) into a frenzy.

This word, description, whatever, is just another attempt to raise the reality stakes.

 

[CutieMouse]

Deleted for posting in the wrong thread.

 

[neonflux]

Hi, Neon.

I see several conversations taking place on this thread, and your excellent post seems to be addressing primarily the emotions and needs of a bottom or submissive in the wake of intensive pain play or humiliation play.

This is a very, very different phenomenon from what is described in the Steel article to which Bredon linked. It is also surely very different from whatever goes on in the headspace of a person whose only experience with BDSM is through the computer (e.g., Bredon's "virgin sub").

He spoke about a person who had an "overwhelming desire which couldn't be fulfilled in the flesh". You are speaking about what happens in the immediate aftermath of the time when the desires of the flesh are suddenly fulfilled. Those are very, very different situations. One filled with longings which are nearly 100% fantasy, by definition. The other dealing with the reality of what has just actually taken place.

When speaking about the reaction of a bottom or submissive partner to a specific incident of pain play or humiliation play, my personal opinion is that the Top has a responsibility to check that his/her partner is okay in the wake of whatever play occurred, and to make reasonable efforts to help the bottom regain equilibrium.

It is also my personal opinion that it is the bottom's responsibility to inform the Top if he/she is not feeling okay. The Top can't help if he/she doesn't know something's wrong.

That made perfect sense to me.

Hi JM

Regarding the link between what I experienced and submissive frenzy, I think that my second post perhaps more accurately expressed what I see as the connection, although ultimately I agree with you that the two are separate phenomena.

After my experience with sub drop, I have a lot more "compassion" for someone experiencing sub frenzy because I can see how NOT getting the aftercare one needs after intense play could lead to a "frenzied" state.

I wanted so badly for the emotions and physical reactions (cold, shaking, etc.) to end that had I not been able to get the reassurance and support I needed, I could see appearing at the nearest public play space or posting on Craig's List to make it end by finding someone who would help me go back to that "safe subby space."

Ultimately, I know that I would have never done this - at 50 I am too stable and self-possessed, and mature (yes, I am reinforcing your comment about maturity here) to have done so. I also value self-control too much. However, I now have an understanding of how not getting one's needs for aftercare might lead an inexperienced or very young, or very insecure ply into a state of frenzy.

I also can see how this might be a more common experience for people in online relationships since for me, the physical comfort of sleeping next to my kink partner for two of the three nights following my experience with sub drop was crucial to my aftercare - a comfort denied those in an OL relationship...

And yes, I think that all of us bear responsibility for ensuring that our needs are fulfilled, in part by informing our Top or bottom if we aren't feeling OK. (I also can see how a Top coming out of intense play - for instance one in which s/he brought forth a really cruel or terrifying part of her/himself - would also need reassurance.)

Neon

PS, thank you for being such a constant in our little corner of the Lit community, JM.

 

[lil_slave_rose]

Hi JM

Regarding the link between what I experienced and submissive frenzy, I think that my second post perhaps more accurately expressed what I see as the connection, although ultimately I agree with you that the two are separate phenomena.

After my experience with sub drop, I have a lot more "compassion" for someone experiencing sub frenzy because I can see how NOT getting the aftercare one needs after intense play could lead to a "frenzied" state.

I wanted so badly for the emotions and physical reactions (cold, shaking, etc.) to end that had I not been able to get the reassurance and support I needed, I could see appearing at the nearest public play space or posting on Craig's List to make it end by finding someone who would help me go back to that "safe subby space."

Ultimately, I know that I would have never done this - at 50 I am too stable and self-possessed, and mature (yes, I am reinforcing your comment about maturity here) to have done so. I also value self-control too much. However, I now have an understanding of how not getting one's needs for aftercare might lead an inexperienced or very young, or very insecure ply into a state of frenzy.

I also can see how this might be a more common experience for people in online relationships since for me, the physical comfort of sleeping next to my kink partner for two of the three nights following my experience with sub drop was crucial to my aftercare - a comfort denied those in an OL relationship...

And yes, I think that all of us bear responsibility for ensuring that our needs are fulfilled, in part by informing our Top or bottom if we aren't feeling OK. (I also can see how a Top coming out of intense play - for instance one in which s/he brought forth a really cruel or terrifying part of her/himself - would also need reassurance.)

Neon

PS, thank you for being such a constant in our little corner of the Lit community, JM.

sub frenzy is more described as a 'newish' submissive so eager to find her/his place in the lifestyle that they go out, find the nearest Dom, the one that shows them the most attention and then latches onto them, ignoring all common sense and red flags. i don't think it has to do with maturity, a good friend of mine and Master's who went through sub frenzy is far from immature. but all common sense goes out the window while you are in this state. i do see what you are getting at with comparing sub frenzy to the feeling after being in deep sub space without the right after care, but still think they are very different

SUB FRENZY: Colloquial A very strong, sometimes overwhelming, desire to find a dominant partner or to become immersed in BDSM-related activities, sometimes seen in people who identify strongly as submissive, particularly peope who have either just newly discovered their submissive side or who have not partaken in BDSM-related activities for a long time. People in the grip of sub frenzy may sometimes make unwise or unsafe choices.

 

[incubus'_sub]

Believe what you wish, lsr, you will insist on your right to do so anyway.

Age has nothing to do with maturity, although most of us have matured with age & experience. If your friend behaved like an twit, throwing herself at the nearest Dom it's because she was emotionally immature & has nothing whatsoever to do with submission.

If she was hurt in the process, it's probably because this type of needy, silly person is not really welcomed into the real world of BDSM. They are too much work & too much trouble to be worth the effort. Even worse if they try to blame it on "sub frenzy". Sure, there'll be those who will use them & dump them, but they are fringe dwellers themselves.

Bredon, you are wise to be very wary of those who use this type of colloquial terminology as an excuse to behave badly. After all, being given the submission of one who blames her feelings & behaviour on being out of self control is not worth much, is it?

 

[JMohegan]

However, I now have an understanding of how not getting one's needs for aftercare might lead an inexperienced or very young, or very insecure ply into a state of frenzy.

I can understand that, too.

But here's my point. Why call it "Submissive Frenzy"? Why not call it "Inadequate Aftercare Frenzy", or something like that?

In a way, this sort of reminds me of the old stereotype about women being breathless, dizzy creatures prone to fainting. Yeah, well.... loosen the stays on their corsets a little, and watch how their constitution improves.

I also can see how this might be a more common experience for people in online relationships since for me, the physical comfort of sleeping next to my kink partner for two of the three nights following my experience with sub drop was crucial to my aftercare - a comfort denied those in an OL relationship...

I don't have any experience with online D/s. My only observation of online D/s is what I have read on this board, but from what I have read there is a very high level of frustration involved in this type of relationship. Not just relating to the absence of aftercare, but also to the absence of a great many other things as well.

If one must create a label for such a thing, it seems to me that this might be called "Online Romance Frenzy", or something like that. I'm guessing that non-kinky people feel this frustration intensely as well.

And yes, I think that all of us bear responsibility for ensuring that our needs are fulfilled, in part by informing our Top or bottom if we aren't feeling OK. (I also can see how a Top coming out of intense play - for instance one in which s/he brought forth a really cruel or terrifying part of her/himself - would also need reassurance.)

One of the many things that makes switches in general so likeable is their ability to appreciate the view from both sides of the street.

I had extremely intense, frenzied experiences (relating to guilt) when I first started to acknowledge myself as a sadist. I would punch bags until my hands bled, run so far and so fast that I collapsed in exhaustion, and slap myself across the face as hard as I possibly could. (Unfortunately, I have a great right arm. )

I have also watched other male Dominants engage in a frenzy of pompous arrogance, letting their hubris get the better of whatever judgment they possess and leading them, for example, to take on more submissives at once than they could possibly handle in a responsible way.

So why no essays on the subject of "Dominant Frenzy"? Why don't we write about ways to take Dominants carefully by the hand and walk them through their struggles on the path to mature and responsible behavior?

There is a tone to so many comments about submissives that I find condescending and objectionable. They are not children. They are adults. So why do we speak of them differently?

I realize that I am just talking about semantics here, but word choice is sometimes important.

For example, if I wrote an essay with the title "Female Frenzies" describing immature, irrational behavior, what would you or any other woman in the room have to say?

PS, thank you for being such a constant in our little corner of the Lit community, JM.

Very kind of you. Thanks. You too.

 

[MasterPhoenix]

Thou assumath too much
--William Shakesphere

FYI, the person of whom she is speaking who is a very close friend, is very much involved in her local BDSM group.

 

[lil_slave_rose]

Believe what you wish, lsr, you will insist on your right to do so anyway.

Age has nothing to do with maturity, although most of us have matured with age & experience. If your friend behaved like an twit, throwing herself at the nearest Dom it's because she was emotionally immature & has nothing whatsoever to do with submission.

If she was hurt in the process, it's probably because this type of needy, silly person is not really welcomed into the real world of BDSM. They are too much work & too much trouble to be worth the effort. Even worse if they try to blame it on "sub frenzy". Sure, there'll be those who will use them & dump them, but they are fringe dwellers themselves.

Bredon, you are wise to be very wary of those who use this type of colloquial terminology as an excuse to behave badly. After all, being given the submission of one who blames her feelings & behaviour on being out of self control is not worth much, is it?

first of all, the submissive of which i speak is IN THE REAL WORLD OF BDSM. she is not an online submissive, secondly, who are you to suggest anything about anyone you do not know? your comment about her being a 'silly needy person' is wrong, and quite laughable. believe what i want because i will insist on my right to do so?? good god, you're talking to ME about maturity and look at your hateful words.....i don't have anything else to say....

 

[A Desert Rose]

In my dictionary, sub frenzy = desperation... desperation in all it's forms.

 

[lil_slave_rose]

In my dictionary, sub frenzy = desperation... desperation in all it's forms.

agreed, and in desperation, we do things sometimes that we otherwise would not do.

 

[incubus'_sub]

Hmmm, so she acted like an immature, frenzied twit in the real world & got hurt. I rest my case.

 

[A Desert Rose]

Hmmm, so she acted like an immature, frenzied twit in the real world & got hurt. I rest my case.

And all out of desperation, in one form or another, in one way or another... ;-)


My credo: If you're desperate, never, never show it.

 

[lil_slave_rose]

Hmmm, so she acted like an immature, frenzied twit in the real world & got hurt. I rest my case.

*sighs* not even sure why i'm bothering...but....did i say she got hurt? re-read my post, and you will see that i did not. i SAID that she went through sub frenzy. she did not act like an immature, frenzied twit. wow...you know, i do like to debate things respectfully but with posts like this, it's obvious you make these comments for a much different reason. you always think that because YOU don't agree with something, then it must not be true. i thought we were all adults here and could discuss something without being so closed minded and rude to each other. YOUR way of this lifestyle is not the ONLY way, believe it or not, and other people do have opinions on things,just because you don't agree doesn't mean your 'opinions' are the right ones and there is no reason to be so ugly with your words.

 

[MasterPhoenix]

Hmmm, so she acted like an immature, frenzied twit in the real world & got hurt. I rest my case.

Actually, she learned what it was and was able to get control.

I don't think that anyone on this thread has said that sub frenzy makes anything OK. In fact, from what I understand it is something that when noticed needs to be addressed before it leads to damage. Knowing the symptoms and what it is assists people in helping others to see what is going on.

Sub frenzy is a real phenomenon, and is more common that just a few fringe twits as has been suggested. The difference is in how it is handled. People will make mistakes in life, and it is not ours to be judgmental.

Back to Bredon's original post, he expressed a concern about the activities of a play partner. It is NOT Bredon's responsibility to give the other what they want. His responsibility to the other solely depends on their relationship which is something I am not privy to. I would suggest that Bredon mention his concern to make the other aware.

 

[JMohegan]

i SAID that she went through sub frenzy. she did not act like an immature, frenzied twit.

Hi, Rose.

I don't want to comment on your friend.

However, I do want to point out that the essay to which you provided a link in post 17 pretty much defined someone in a state of "submissive frenzy" as acting like an "immature, frenzied twit".

Check it out...

Fairly quickly the submissive may discover that 'getting their fix', becomes supremely important in their lives. It can leave them irrational, willing to make poor decisions, rash, impulsive and generally stupid. A submissive in a frenzied state is at their most vulnerable to succumbing to the ploys of those less than admirable. They may become easily enthralled, believe themselves 'in love', willing to give over anything (almost literally) in order to fill that enormous void in their life.

Contact with a Dominant, almost any kind will tend to rivet their attention. The very first gift that the submissive gives away here is their common sense.

 

[incubus'_sub]

LOL, I thought that this was an adult forum too, until the last couple of weeks.

Bredon may take my opinions & experience as he sees fit, after all, it was his questions I was answering.

 

[lil_slave_rose]

LOL, I thought that this was an adult forum too, until the last couple of weeks.

Bredon may take my opinions & experience as he sees fit, after all, it was his questions I was answering.

actually, if you re-read your own post, you will see that you most certainly did NOT answer His questions until the end of your post, the rest of it was you basically telling me that my opinions and what i believe are not right because YOU don't agree with them. i made no comments to you before that post. as i said in my earlier post, i don't even know why i'm bothering.

 

[lil_slave_rose]

Hi, Rose.

I don't want to comment on your friend.

However, I do want to point out that the essay to which you provided a link in post 17 pretty much defined someone in a state of "submissive frenzy" as acting like an "immature, frenzied twit".

Check it out...

the essay i provided was to help understand what sub frenzy actually was. i do not see that essay as saying that the submissive in this state 'acts as an immature frenzied twit' i see it as someone who is new and inexperienced and so 'desperate' to get that feeling of submission that he/she 'acts out' in a way that he/she normally would not. does he/she need to wake up and face reality and be a bit more careful? of course, but who hasn't made mistakes? i've seen plenty here on this forum who admit they went through a 'frenzy' stage, does that make them immature frenzied twits? i don't think so, it makes them a person who was so overwhelmed with their feelings, their realization of who they are, that they feel they NEED it right now. they need their 'fix' so to speak, and sadly will go about it in ways they should not. i'm not saying, nor have i ever said that because it has a 'name' that it makes it right. it doesn't, they are acting irrationally, and need to get themselves under control, i do agree with that, but i just don't agree that they are 'twits' or any of the other not so nice words used to describe these submissives who've gone through it.