"Sub frenzy" and similar stuff

[incubus'_sub]

lsr, in our own ways we are indeed trying to answer Bredon's questions & it's quite normal to interpret comments & examples made by others into parts of those answers.

Not everything is about you, dear.

 

[lil_slave_rose]

lsr, in our own ways we are indeed trying to answer Bredon's questions & it's quite normal to interpret comments & examples made by others into parts of those answers.

Not everything is about you, dear.

LOL that would have been believed, had you not specifically used my name in your post and referred to my 'friend' by assuming things about her which you know nothing of. if you are going to claim to be 'answering the questions' then leave my name out of your posts, especially with the 'snarky' comments, if however you'd like to respectfully debate our difference of opinions, then i'm all for that, but i have no time for those who feel my opinions are not valid and want to insult me rather than make good points to counter mine.

Believe what you wish, lsr, you will insist on your right to do so anyway.

Age has nothing to do with maturity, although most of us have matured with age & experience. If your friend behaved like an twit, throwing herself at the nearest Dom it's because she was emotionally immature & has nothing whatsoever to do with submission.

If she was hurt in the process, it's probably because this type of needy, silly person is not really welcomed into the real world of BDSM. They are too much work & too much trouble to be worth the effort. Even worse if they try to blame it on "sub frenzy". Sure, there'll be those who will use them & dump them, but they are fringe dwellers themselves.

 

[Bredon]

Um, LOL, peeps

I would like to say that I'm benefitting from *all* your comments, and POVs-- It's giving me a full picture of a complex phenomenon and I can pick out the information that I need-- thanks for that!
Everything that was written was very helpful, even when it was opposing opinions. I don't have the time right now to quote from everybody, but I will remember all your words--

Have a nice day, and please stop fighting in my thread

Bredon

 

[JMohegan]

Here is an excerpt from an actual conversation that I had with a buddy of mine several years ago.


Friend: You sayin' I've been acting like an arrogant prick?

JM: Yes. You've been acting like an arrogant prick.

Friend: Fuck.

JM: Indeed.

Friend: You're right.

JM: I know.

i do not see that essay as saying that the submissive in this state 'acts as an immature frenzied twit'

I think that is *exactly* what the essay says. "Rash, impulsive and generally stupid" sure sounds twit-like to me!

Keep in mind, Rose, that there is a difference between telling someone that they actually are an "immature frenzied twit", and telling someone that they are temporarily acting like one.

does he/she need to wake up and face reality and be a bit more careful? of course, but who hasn't made mistakes?

Who indeed?

So why is this labelled as a "submissive" phenomenon?

 

[CutieMouse]

So why is this labelled as a "submissive" phenomenon?

Because it's convenient to feed the myth that "submissive" women are more simplistic, fragile, emotional, child-like, irrational, pick-your-own-descriptor than "non-submissive" women.

It feeds the same philosophy that makes people think women who choose submision give up their brains- especially if they are in a 24/7 relationship.

It supports a certain belief, that is, itself, a form of subtle control (on the one hand), while at the same time handing submissives little definitional/label chocolates, to excuse selfish behaviour (on the other).

 

[JMohegan]

Because it's convenient to feed the myth that "submissive" women are more simplistic, fragile, emotional, child-like, irrational, pick-your-own-descriptor than "non-submissive" women.

It feeds the same philosophy that makes people think women who choose submision give up their brains- especially if they are in a 24/7 relationship.

It supports a certain belief, that is, itself, a form of subtle control (on the one hand), while at the same time handing submissives little definitional/label chocolates, to excuse selfish behaviour (on the other).

Thank you.

That's how I'm reading this, too.

And that's why I am objecting.

There may be submissives who are simplistic, fragile, emotional, child-like, irrational people, and there may be Dominants who treat them like the same.

But that sure as hell doesn't describe any woman with whom I've ever spent more than 30 seconds in the real world. And it sure as hell doesn't describe me.

 

[CutieMouse]

I've known men who developed "poly-frenzy" and did really really really stupid things.

I've known women who developed "just divorced-frenzy" and did reallly really really stupid things.

I've known both men and women who appear to have "Tops disease" (AKA- "Dom-Frenzy") and behave like arrogant idiots.

I've known men and women who appear to have "sub-frenzy" and leave all logic at the door.

People do stupid things when they fall in Love, discover the ability to scratch a particular "itch", or feel the overwhelming rush of freedom that comes from being fully accepted... the idiotic behaviour knows no limits with regards to generder, orientation, income, or intelligence. I find the phrase "NRE" (New Relationship Energy) covers all the idiocy, as well as the mushy sweetness, in a far more neutral way, than the phrase "sub-frenzy".

 

[callinectes]

Because it's convenient to feed the myth that "submissive" women are more simplistic, fragile, emotional, child-like, irrational, pick-your-own-descriptor than "non-submissive" women.

Sadly, a great deal of the BDSM erotica and "information" found on line contributes to this myth. Someone new to the notion of D/s with only the internet as an information source has to wade through a bunch of trash to find truly useful information.

 

[neonflux]

Um, LOL, peeps .... Have a nice day, and please stop fighting in my thread

Bredon

Bredon, Have I told you recently that I love you?

I've known men who developed "poly-frenzy" and did really really really stupid things.

I've known women who developed "just divorced-frenzy" and did reallly really really stupid things.

I've known both men and women who appear to have "Tops disease" (AKA- "Dom-Frenzy") and behave like arrogant idiots.

I've known men and women who appear to have "sub-frenzy" and leave all logic at the door.

People do stupid things when they fall in Love, discover the ability to scratch a particular "itch", or feel the overwhelming rush of freedom that comes from being fully accepted... the idiotic behaviour knows no limits with regards to generder, orientation, income, or intelligence. I find the phrase "NRE" (New Relationship Energy) covers all the idiocy, as well as the mushy sweetness, in a far more neutral way, than the phrase "sub-frenzy".

...Why call it "Submissive Frenzy"? Why not call it "Inadequate Aftercare Frenzy", or something like that?

In a way, this sort of reminds me of the old stereotype about women being breathless, dizzy creatures prone to fainting. Yeah, well.... loosen the stays on their corsets a little, and watch how their constitution improves...

...I had extremely intense, frenzied experiences (relating to guilt) when I first started to acknowledge myself as a sadist. I would punch bags until my hands bled, run so far and so fast that I collapsed in exhaustion, and slap myself across the face as hard as I possibly could. (Unfortunately, I have a great right arm. )

I have also watched other male Dominants engage in a frenzy of pompous arrogance, letting their hubris get the better of whatever judgment they possess and leading them, for example, to take on more submissives at once than they could possibly handle in a responsible way.

So why no essays on the subject of "Dominant Frenzy"? Why don't we write about ways to take Dominants carefully by the hand and walk them through their struggles on the path to mature and responsible behavior?...

Hi CutieMouse & JM,

Thank you for your comments about the use of the term "sub frenzy." And JM, I don't see it as only a question of semantics - I am old enough to still believe that words have meaning and their use is important. I completely agree with your comments about the term and about the fact that all of us, given the right conditions, can experience "frenzy." As you suggest, I also believe that it is not a phenomenon common only to people who are wired for submission or for those of us who consciously "live our kink."

When I first started dating and having sex again after what amounted to an 8-year drought (those who know me well, still can't believe I went that long), I became "frenzied" when it came to sex/sexual partners... Some of it had to do with "catching up" for lost time, some had to do with the fact that being an older woman (48), I was afraid that my time of "attractiveness" would soon run out, some of it had to do with the fact that the previous 8 years I'd essentially been in a relationship with someone who didn't appreciate me (nor I her) and I was reveling in the rediscovered and very missed attention I was receiving.

I do understand how normally sane people can move into that frenzied state and my post was in part directed to the idea that, before deciding that it must be a question of "constitution" we have compassion for people who fall into that sort of behavior.

Regarding why we talk about "sub frenzy" and do mostly in regards to women submissives (ignoring the phenomena of "top frenzy"), I would agree that part of this viewpoint has its roots in ridiculous, traditionally patriarchal views of women as weak, feeble-minded, prone to hysteria, etc. Of course, women who top are not included in this because we are "taking on" a role that is viewed as having "masculine" qualities. I have no idea what this means for us women who switch - perhaps we're just wishy-washy and unable to make up our minds, LOL?

I also think that the view of submission as an expression of weakness is in part due to the fact that we live in a "Top" culture where submission and service are themselves devalued. Where the goal for all of us should be to "land on top" and where those of us who don't have those aspirations are seen as somehow being "lesser."

There is great strength in submission and surrender and great beauty in service, whether performed by a man or a woman. I have never understood why people refuse to see this fact or understand what a gift both are and what maturity and character it takes to give of oneself in this way.

Neon

 

[JMohegan]

There is great strength in submission and surrender and great beauty in service, whether performed by a man or a woman. I have never understood why people refuse to see this fact or understand what a gift both are and what maturity and character it takes to give of oneself in this way.

I never understood this either...... until I came to Lit.

That was a great post, Neon. Thanks for writing it.

 

[BeachGurl2]

When I first started dating and having sex again after what amounted to an 8-year drought (those who know me well, still can't believe I went that long), I became "frenzied" when it came to sex/sexual partners... Some of it had to do with "catching up" for lost time, some had to do with the fact that being an older woman (48), I was afraid that my time of "attractiveness" would soon run out, some of it had to do with the fact that the previous 8 years I'd essentially been in a relationship with someone who didn't appreciate me (nor I her) and I was reveling in the rediscovered and very missed attention I was receiving.

I do understand how normally sane people can move into that frenzied state and my post was in part directed to the idea that, before deciding that it must be a question of "constitution" we have compassion for people who fall into that sort of behavior.

Neon, I can totally relate to your post here. I did exactly the same thing after getting out of my 10-year abusive marriage. I went 2 years, rather than your 8 years, before feeling healed enough to try again. I had lost so much of myself in my marriage, my name having been FatLazyWorthlessBitch for so long. No physical affection or words of caring for so many years can truly drag you to a horrible place. So when people begin to respond to you in ways that you have missed for so long, it is hard to reign it all in. I was lucky in that I worked hard to keep my head on straight during this period so that I didn't get myself into a potentially harmful position. But I can also see how people can make serious errors in judgement. I don't believe for one second, though, that it is someone else's responsibility to 'fix' the bad situations for them. People have to accept responsibility for their own actions and then make moves to fix the problems that ensue from bad decision-making.

Regarding why we talk about "sub frenzy" and do mostly in regards to women submissives (ignoring the phenomena of "top frenzy"), I would agree that part of this viewpoint has its roots in ridiculous, traditionally patriarchal views of women as weak, feeble-minded, prone to hysteria, etc. Of course, women who top are not included in this because we are "taking on" a role that is viewed as having "masculine" qualities. I have no idea what this means for us women who switch - perhaps we're just wishy-washy and unable to make up our minds, LOL?

I also think that the view of submission as an expression of weakness is in part due to the fact that we live in a "Top" culture where submission and service are themselves devalued. Where the goal for all of us should be to "land on top" and where those of us who don't have those aspirations are seen as somehow being "lesser."

There is great strength in submission and surrender and great beauty in service, whether performed by a man or a woman. I have never understood why people refuse to see this fact or understand what a gift both are and what maturity and character it takes to give of oneself in this way.

Neon

I think that we have a culture of this 'survival of the fittest' mentality that bleeds over into this arena as well. There are those Doms who are Neanderthal-like in their chest pounding and hair dragging. Those types will always see women, and submissives, as weak. And they will view male submissives as the weakest. Interesting, isn't it, that the very life I choose to lead is viewed so pathetically. But I see strength in submission as well, as my sig line suggests. I know who I am and I am comfortable in my own skin. If someone else has a problem with it, it is their problem, not mine.

 

[Bredon]

Neon--

Thank you everybody, again. I agree very much about the "sub as children" POV being yucky-- That's why I put the word sub frenzy in asterics in my initial post. I felt unconfortable to the way it was described in that article--

I hear you, JMohegan, about other types of frenzy. Your description of your own initial top frenzy was very important for me, because I have felt and behaved that way too, I'm relieved that I'm not alone with that.

I totally agree that human beings in general tend to become frenzied sometimes-- and I like your concept, Neon, of compassion.

Both your posts, Neon and BeachGurl about coming out of unpleasant longterm relationships and sexual starvation are very helpful for me-- and I can relate a lot to them -- um--

well, I'm glad to hear that other people have made similar experiences.

More later
Bredon--

 

[lil_slave_rose]

Have a nice day, and please stop fighting in my thread
Bredon

i will apologize for my part in this, but felt i needed to defend myself. onto the topic at hand, i think everyone is putting to much into the actual word and not seeing that it 'sub frenzy' is just the word for a state that people do actually go through. i know i even seen atleast 2 people on this forum say they went through it as well...maybe it's not just 'submissives' either way, my point is, it's real. as for who's responsibility it is to 'fix' the problem, obviously it is mostly on the one 'acting out' however, he/she may need to be told they are acting this way so they can see it and fix it. hopefully i'm making sense, i know what's in my head and what i'm trying to say, but i'm not always great at typing it out *smiles*

 

[celtcdawn]

i will apologize for my part in this, but felt i needed to defend myself. onto the topic at hand, i think everyone is putting to much into the actual word and not seeing that it 'sub frenzy' is just the word for a state that people do actually go through. i know i even seen atleast 2 people on this forum say they went through it as well...maybe it's not just 'submissives' either way, my point is, it's real. as for who's responsibility it is to 'fix' the problem, obviously it is mostly on the one 'acting out' however, he/she may need to be told they are acting this way so they can see it and fix it. hopefully i'm making sense, i know what's in my head and what i'm trying to say, but i'm not always great at typing it out *smiles*

Personally, i think you said it perfectly. I saw a lot of confusion in terms bouncing around and finally just decided to back out of the conversation. Thanks rose.

dawnie

 

[Bredon]

Dear rose,

I think it's important that you point out that you believe that such a phenomemon actually exists (probably together with other types of frenzy).
That's what I wantedto know-- if there was a state that peopel could recongnize as being distinct from "crush frenzy" or "sexually depraved frenzy", or the like.
A distinct "flavour" of frenzy-- that is kick-started (if not caused) by beeing in that initial contact with BDSM, or by long depravation--

I'm a lot clearer about it all after this thread, so thank you everybody for helping.

(esp. JMohegan for the long enlightening relationship advise-- I will keep that in mind)


to all of you

Bredon

 

[the_pet]

hmmmm


i don't know all these technical terms but my personal experience says...

sub-frenzy to me is like an obsession to play because i need the release, it doesn't make me do crazy things though (well maybe if you consider self-bondage crazy because i can't play for days, etc. due to circumstances)

and as far as sub-space goes (AHHHHHHH i know it well and LOVE IT) it's what i live for!!!!!!! That moment when NOTHING else matters, when there is only THAT MOMENT

i hear no other sounds, just my whimpers
no other thoughts, just pleasure and fulfullment
not even aware of my surroundings (hot/cold/dark/light/hard floor/soft sheets)
ONLY THAT MOMENT
it begins for me when the collar is placed around me neck
and i'm bound
there is no other greater release
all my worries, issues, attitudes, fears, hang ups fall away and i am happy
every episode is cathargic for me


i can see why it would make drive some to behave irrationally to get more of the same but i think that's in any relationship/encounter that you feel so ALIVE



pet