sub/slaves and perfectionism

[sub princess]

Re: Obedience is hard work

It is often hard to obey and do tasks without embellishment or slacking. The temptation to do a bit more than the Dominant ahs requested maybe too much. Or even worse ,the temptation to ignore the request may be even more.

As SD says, many times a time limit is given for a reason. The reason may not always be apparent to the submissive, and the sub may try to read his/her Dom/me's mind. This almost always leads to the wrong conclusion.

So surrender, is the only option, if intend submission is the goal. Do what is requested (or ordered), and in the manner that is directed.

Thank you Eb, sounds like a good idea to me..... i will work on it, giving all of myself, through submission, is the definite goal and privilege at hand.

 

[lark sparrow]

Yes Lark, again you make perfect sense to me.. thank you. i do tend to over analize things. You give great advice, and i will stop trying so hard and allow my nature and my devotion to Him guide me...... Thank you so much!

Thank you for bringing up such a great topic in an engaging fashion. I tend to over-analyze things as well, and have that perfectionist streak so alot of what you said made perfect sense to me as well. I'm really glad it helped. It truly does get easier in the long run, and is very rewarding - it's just difficult to find that simplicity at times.

 

[Luna_Wolf72]

Re: hello again.

Thank you so much (what to call you? how to shorten? lol) apet4you. You are very sweet. You too have a good day, and take care...............

Most times dearling...*apet* will do...cuz that is normally how most people pm me...kiss....

 

[Luna_Wolf72]

lark...

Giving up control is simple, but not easy. Stop trying to control the situation.

I'm not a surrender guru and far from perfect, but I think it truly does start with simply listening to and obeying the Dominant - and resisting the other urges outwardly. It's a practice - you just have to be willing to be obedient to the letter, even uncomfortably so, because sometimes that means you just have to be with yourself and stop trying... eventually the actual exchange becomes clear - it truly is simple.

The more complex you make it the further away you are getting from the actual process of surrendering and obeying, and the less you can feel it. Focus, trust, and follow through. The more you do it, the more natural and harmonious it becomes. It's not being mindless, it's being mindful. Does that make sense at all?

Here is a weird thought...when i re-read what you wrote..it struck me: when i had a female owner, i did just as you say..i gave up control and was happy, nay thrilled, to do so. It is only since i have gotten my new owner (a male) that I have found difficulty in letting go. The question that begs to be answered then is this...am i not giving up control because I don't trust him? or is it men in general? I have found that when i listen to my owner with a open heart it is a lot easier to give him the control...the problem I run into is...giving him an open heart. What i see is that if i want to please him enough, I should be able to open for him as I did for my past owner. Mayhap it is because being in a *normal* hetero relationship is new to me? What do you think? Anyone else with a view on this little discovery, please feel free to help...

 

[lark sparrow]

Here is a weird thought...when i re-read what you wrote..it struck me: when i had a female owner, i did just as you say..i gave up control and was happy, nay thrilled, to do so. It is only since i have gotten my new owner (a male) that I have found difficulty in letting go. The question that begs to be answered then is this...am i not giving up control because I don't trust him? or is it men in general? I have found that when i listen to my owner with a open heart it is a lot easier to give him the control...the problem I run into is...giving him an open heart. What i see is that if i want to please him enough, I should be able to open for him as I did for my past owner. Mayhap it is because being in a *normal* hetero relationship is new to me? What do you think? Anyone else with a view on this little discovery, please feel free to help...

I think I might struggle with that somewhat too, pet. But... in the end, does it matter what the reasons are? What I mean to say, is that if you wish to continue the relationship and you have not reached your limits of submission to your Master, then putting into practice those simple notions are still valid and necessary.

Trust and surrender can be difficult - they are for me. When I started to do things Mistress' way, and tried to shift attitude it was a discipline, and it didn't always reflect what was going on inside of me (and She knew that) - my reasons and fears were understood, but they didn't excuse me from at least the bare bone mechanics of surrender - obedience. I wasn't overtly aware of how far I had come or how this practice became a mindset until Mistress pointed it out rather joyfully. At first I didn't even really get Her enthusiasm because it had become (with time) second nature not to question Her at every turn, and I wasn't questioning my submission to Her constantly... it's so simple it can allude us.

I think one of my initial fears about surrender was that I would somehow lose myself. But in fact, what happens is that I continually gain parts I have longed for but couldn't reach by myself, and I certainly haven't lost the ability to set boundaries and be aware of my own feelings and needs. It's not always easy, but that simple twist on surrender gave me an epiphany that I continually go back to in submitting to Mistress, and it leaves us both feeling much more fulfilled than the other way.

 

[Netzach]

*chuckling* well, I was definitely trying to control the situation. I was certainly in it to please myself.

I can think of no bigger neon sign reading "bottom, maybe, sub no" for my forehead.

 

[zipman]

Re: Obedience is hard work

<snip>
As SD says, many times a time limit is given for a reason. The reason may not always be apparent to the submissive, and the sub may try to read his/her Dom/me's mind. This almost always leads to the wrong conclusion.

So surrender, is the only option, if intend submission is the goal. Do what is requested (or ordered), and in the manner that is directed.

First off what a great thread this is to read.

I think Eb makes a great point that gets lost in the middle here. Too often, I have had subs try to read my mind rather than just listen to what I am saying. I love the fact that my gf doesn't do this, as it just leads to problems and miscommunication.

Listening is truly an art, one it took me years to learn. It requires a great deal of practice and patience but is well worth the effort.

 

[Ebonyfire]

I think I might struggle with that somewhat too, pet. But... in the end, does it matter what the reasons are? What I mean to say, is that if you wish to continue the relationship and you have not reached your limits of submission to your Master, then putting into practice those simple notions are still valid and necessary.

Trust and surrender can be difficult - they are for me. When I started to do things Mistress' way, and tried to shift attitude it was a discipline, and it didn't always reflect what was going on inside of me (and She knew that) - my reasons and fears were understood, but they didn't excuse me from at least the bare bone mechanics of surrender - obedience. I wasn't overtly aware of how far I had come or how this practice became a mindset until Mistress pointed it out rather joyfully. At first I didn't even really get Her enthusiasm because it had become (with time) second nature not to question Her at every turn, and I wasn't questioning my submission to Her constantly... it's so simple it can allude us.

I think one of my initial fears about surrender was that I would somehow lose myself. But in fact, what happens is that I continually gain parts I have longed for but couldn't reach by myself, and I certainly haven't lost the ability to set boundaries and be aware of my own feelings and needs. It's not always easy, but that simple twist on surrender gave me an epiphany that I continually go back to in submitting to Mistress, and it leaves us both feeling much more fulfilled than the other way.

Yes, attitudes are much harder to shape and change than behaviour.

At best all we Dom/mes can control is the behaviour of our submissives. However, over time, behaviour can change one's attitude if you are open to it.

There is a lot of truth to the phrase, "fake it until you make it".

 

[Quint]

Just want to say that I'm reading this. Very troubled. Struggling lots. Will share epiphanies as they come.

Quint "Perfectionist to a T"

 

[zipman]

Just want to say that I'm reading this. Very troubled. Struggling lots. Will share epiphanies as they come.

Quint "Perfectionist to a T"

Learning can be painful too!

 

[Richard49]

Learning can be painful too!

yup

slaps crop over palm of hand

 

[Ebonyfire]

Learning can be painful too!

That is probably why it is called the school of hard knocks.

 

[Desdemona]

Well, I've read this thread with interest and its given me some food for thought. But, the first thing that strikes me is how many of my fellow subs are perfectionists.

I'm almost feeling like an underachiever sub now.

In all seriousness, perfectionism isn't an option for me. I'm not perfect. My submission isn't perfect either. I try very hard to listen and to give Him what He asks for. However, there are times when I just want what I want when I want it. That doesn't mean I get it, but its an internal struggle for me. I have a strong will and a stubborn streak. So, I guess my struggles are a bit different.

 

[zipman]

Well, I've read this thread with interest and its given me some food for thought. But, the first thing that strikes me is how many of my fellow subs are perfectionists.

I'm almost feeling like an underachiever sub now.

In all seriousness, perfectionism isn't an option for me. I'm not perfect. My submission isn't perfect either. I try very hard to listen and to give Him what He asks for. However, there are times when I just want what I want when I want it. That doesn't mean I get it, but its an internal struggle for me. I have a strong will and a stubborn streak. So, I guess my struggles are a bit different.

Hey Des,

Great to see you posting again! I have never enjoyed perfectionists, as I'm not one myself. The danger that perfectionists run into is concentrating on the trees rather than the forest. I had a sub about 3 years ago who was always beating herself up if she didn't do something right. One night, I told her that as long as she was truly trying to please me, her mistakes would not change how I felt about her submission.

She was so overwhelmed and happy that she dropped to her knees and started smothering my bare feet with kisses. It was so heartfelt and sincere an expression of emotion that I had to tell her that I valued what she did much more than if she performed every task perfectly.

Of course I'm probably too easy on my subs!

 

[Luna_Wolf72]

hmmm...

Yes, attitudes are much harder to shape and change than behaviour.

At best all we Dom/mes can control is the behaviour of our submissives. However, over time, behaviour can change one's attitude if you are open to it.

There is a lot of truth to the phrase, "fake it until you make it".

the question I find that I have to ask is this: will faking it be the easy way out...to avoid losing the relationship, i mean. I guess one is never too old to learn, but dammit...why is it that i am learning so much, so late??

 

[Desdemona]

Hey Des,

Great to see you posting again! I have never enjoyed perfectionists, as I'm not one myself. The danger that perfectionists run into is concentrating on the trees rather than the forest. I had a sub about 3 years ago who was always beating herself up if she didn't do something right. One night, I told her that as long as she was truly trying to please me, her mistakes would not change how I felt about her submission.

She was so overwhelmed and happy that she dropped to her knees and started smothering my bare feet with kisses. It was so heartfelt and sincere an expression of emotion that I had to tell her that I valued what she did much more than if she performed every task perfectly.

Of course I'm probably too easy on my subs!

Hi Zip.

Its good to see you posting too. For a while, you seemed as scarce as I have been lately. (I've been lurking though.)

Zip, I suspect that your style of domination is as firm or as easy as the situation warrants. Speaking for me, its always a relief to know that perfection isn't the expectation. His affection for me doesn't change. Even when I screw up, I know I am still valued and loved. I just have to learn from my mistakes and not repeat them. Otherwise, the learning curve does indeed get painful!

 

[zipman]

Hi Zip.

Its good to see you posting too. For a while, you seemed as scarce as I have been lately. (I've been lurking though.)

Zip, I suspect that your style of domination is as firm or as easy as the situation warrants. Speaking for me, its always a relief to know that perfection isn't the expectation. His affection for me doesn't change. Even when I screw up, I know I am still valued and loved. I just have to learn from my mistakes and not repeat them. Otherwise, the learning curve does indeed get painful!

Yes I was pretty scarce for a bit. The desire to post here comes in spurts for me (pun intended).

I think that each Dom/me has different things that make them happy and the challenge is to communicate that clearly. For me, it is depth of submission. When I have a sub who I know gets pleasure simply from bringing me pleasure through her submission, it is a true joy to watch.

I find watching her face light up with the knowledge that she has pleased me to be far more gratifying than gushing praise.

 

[Valcorie]

Wow

-----------------------------------------

 

[Luna_Wolf72]

Re: WOW

Wow! i am very fortunate to have stumbled across this thread. i am new to the D/s realm and with my first Master. As a perfectionist i have jumped in with two feet. Some taskes i have put off becuse i have been worried about getting them 'right' or having a pleasing reaction for my Master. Of course we discused this and i was enlightend that there are no 'right' reactions.

This thread has fit my situation so perfectly. Thank Y/you for all of the helpful input. i now can stand back and look from a whole new perspective.

Thanks

valcorie

I believe that when s.p. started this thred she wasn't sure of the outpouring she would get. I know she will be pleased to see that it has helped someone out besides me!!!

 

[sub princess]

Re: Re: WOW

I believe that when s.p. started this thred she wasn't sure of the outpouring she would get. I know she will be pleased to see that it has helped someone out besides me!!!

Thank you apet, and E/everyone else who has posted. Hi Des, nice to see you again. i am so happy to see that i am not the only one recieving help from this thread, and yes, the response is surprising, but in a wonderful way.

Master read the thread tonight (it was actually His idea in that He wanted me to get to know and hear from O/others involved with D/s, not just on this topic, but many topics).... He was very pleased with the thread, and He said that He is proud of me. W/we discussed a few of the responses posted here, and had a great conversation about it all.

Thanks again to A/all that have posted, Y/you have A/all helped me a great deal, and given me much to think about.

 

[Richard49]

Progress not perfection

When the student is ready
the teacher appears

 

[SirTain]

Imagine if we all were perfect -- what a boring world it would be!

A tremendous thread...begun by a wonderful girl.

Of all the insightful comments on this topic, zipman7's struck the deepest chord: listening is truly an art. Sadly, it seems to have become that, an achievement rather than a common practice. I know I have spent years (and hours of frustration) re-learning how to listen. It can be a dangerous and isolating practice because much of the truths that one begins to hear more clearly can be frightening and alarming.

But what an advantage we have in a D/s relationship, that we exchange power rather than vie for it vainly. What loving Master wants to see his precious slave suffer from trying too hard? And what devoted slave, deep down inside, does not want her Master to know her/him so intimately that she/he is not judged by expectations of performance, but rather is loved simply for who she/he is?

Perfection? It's a grieving veil that hides the truth from others. Its futility inevitable. Its limited satisfaction a very lonely and fleeting reward. Imperfection, frailty, fear -- who is without any of these? No human I have ever known. Tears were mentioned --perhaps these and a smile and an open palm outstretched to someone hurting and a laugh, perhaps these are the closest approximation of human perfection. But why bother judge them when they can be freely given, shared and enjoyed?

Neither you nor I are perfect, My delicate, fearful s.p. W/we're just growing by giving what we each dare to so desire. Dare to be perfect? Haha! I assure you, my girl, I have much more pleasant plans for all that energy!

Delighted by the help from all. Thank you

 

[T.J. Jackson]

Imagine if we all were perfect -- what a boring world it would be!

A tremendous thread...begun by a wonderful girl.

Of all the insightful comments on this topic, zipman7's struck the deepest chord: listening is truly an art. Sadly, it seems to have become that, an achievement rather than a common practice. I know I have spent years (and hours of frustration) re-learning how to listen. It can be a dangerous and isolating practice because much of the truths that one begins to hear more clearly can be frightening and alarming.

But what an advantage we have in a D/s relationship, that W/we exchange power rather than vie for it vainly. What loving Master wants to see His precious slave suffer from trying too hard? And what devoted slave, deep down inside, does not want her Master to know her/him so intimately that she/he is not judged by expectations of performance, but rather is loved simply for who she/he is?

Perfection? It's a grieving veil that hides the truth from others. Its futility inevitable. Its limited satisfaction a very lonely and fleeting reward. Imperfection, frailty, fear -- who is without any of these? No human I have ever known. Tears were mentioned --perhaps these and a smile and an open palm outstretched to someone hurting and a laugh, perhaps these are the closest approximation of human perfection. But why bother judge them when they can be freely given, shared and enjoyed?

Neither you nor I are perfect, My delicate, fearful s.p. W/we're just growing by giving what W/we Each dare to so desire. Dare to be perfect? Haha! I assure you, My girl, I have much more pleasant plans for all that energy!

Delighted by the help from A/all. Thank Y/you

Well if that ain't a hell of a first post. Welcome to Lit!

 

[Ebonyfire]

Well, I've read this thread with interest and its given me some food for thought. But, the first thing that strikes me is how many of my fellow subs are perfectionists.

I'm almost feeling like an underachiever sub now.

In all seriousness, perfectionism isn't an option for me. I'm not perfect. My submission isn't perfect either. I try very hard to listen and to give Him what He asks for. However, there are times when I just want what I want when I want it. That doesn't mean I get it, but its an internal struggle for me. I have a strong will and a stubborn streak. So, I guess my struggles are a bit different.

And quite frankly that is just the kind of sub that interests me the most. It is the little imperfections that we all have that make us interesting.

 

[Ebonyfire]

Re: hmmm...

the question I find that I have to ask is this: will faking it be the easy way out...to avoid losing the relationship, i mean. I guess one is never too old to learn, but dammit...why is it that i am learning so much, so late??

YOu are perhaps equating faking it in this context with insincerity.

When shaping behaviour, you cannot always possibly know what is going on in someone else's head. I do not care to mind read.
But I can measure my sub's behaviour. So in training, the motto is practice makes perfect.

An example would be pretending not to be frightened when one is scared shitless. If you behave as if you are not afraid, one day you may wake up and find your fear has been conquered. YOu have in fact, faked it until you made it.