Submission it's a lifestyle and not kinky.

[ownedsubgal]

great post, Furry.

 

[Stella_Omega]

and it's not limited to the young. i can think of more than a few 30 and 40-something yr old submissive women who desperately play the role of bi, because they do not believe they will be able to attract and keep a Dominant otherwise. it may sound stupid and desperate, but the reality is a lot of "dominant" men have come to expect bisexuality in submissives period, and will be more attracted to someone who claims that label. of course, the reality also is that the hooking up of phony and deluded people only leads to trainwreck relationships, but that's an afterthought i guess.

My solution for those women is to grow up, take a hold of their own power and become dominant. They will never again have to fuck a woman because their master wanted them to. They can, if they want, make a man fuck a man even though he doesn't want to.

Like Primalex has said, though, people really hate to grow up.

 

[Stella_Omega]

No. I mean I think more girls are saying it because they want to be cool and not because they believe they are Bi at all.

When guys say it, it's (as far as I can tell) not going to be a popularity increasing thing for them.

I'm sorry you feel I'm being judgmental. I'm just watching these teens I know. I run quite a few teen groups.

I don't care about anyone's sexuality. I'd just rather girls be truer to themselves about whatever they are rather than play games. Playing games is different from exploring and not knowing IMO.

My daugther is gay, btw. I have never cared if anyone is gay or not. I've always had gay friends of both sexes.

I think we will have to agree to disagree on this phenomenon, its meanings and ramifications.

 

[Bandit58]

No. I mean I think more girls are saying it because they want to be cool and not because they believe they are Bi at all.

When guys say it, it's (as far as I can tell) not going to be a popularity increasing thing for them.

I'm sorry you feel I'm being judgmental. I'm just watching these teens I know. I run quite a few teen groups.

I don't care about anyone's sexuality. I'd just rather girls be truer to themselves about whatever they are rather than play games. Playing games is different from exploring and not knowing IMO.

My daugther is gay, btw. I have never cared if anyone is gay or not. I've always had gay friends of both sexes.

My friend with benefits has twin daughters. One is claiming to be gay, the other thinks she's bi. They are 15 years old. The gay one has had problems with cutting herself as well. My friend is bi, she says she thinks her mother was bi too. So it's not really a surprise, it's just that now it's much more "out there" than when we were growing up

I had attractions to girls when I was about that age, but grew up in a conservative rural community in NZ in the early 70s and didn't even have a name for what I was feeling. I did as expected and got married, had kids, but those feelings were always there, just hidden. I finally had my first bi experience when I was 43. I have now accepted that this has always been a part of me and I now have the opportunity (and a regular partner) to indulge it

Just to clarify, Sir has encouraged me to find play partners but for myself not just for us, and I am always a willing participant in any play we do with other females.

 

[FurryFury]

See what really bothers me about all the fake stuff is that, I have two kids trying to date right now. It's difficult to find teens that know themselves and are being real, rather than just trying to be popular and all that.

There wasn't the whole, tattoos, implants, bi, and piercings is cool thing going on when I was growing up but most kids my own age always seemed so surface and shallow to me.

My kids are finding the same things out. It's kind of painful to watch them blunder into another potential girl only to find out she's not real at all. Has no idea what she wants out of life other than to have a good time and be admired.

I love both sexes myself, no matter what the orientation. I just don't love shallow bull.

One more observation, a bit off topic, an awful lot of teens I know are "sick" a high percentage of the time. Some of this are minor things like stomach aches but a shocking number of them (I'd say at least 25%), have serious medical conditions. I'd really like to know why it seems so elevated for this generation. It breaks my heart. I'd also like to know what we can do to make their health better.

 

[FurryFury]

I think we will have to agree to disagree on this phenomenon, its meanings and ramifications.

Didn't see your post before. Sorry. I can agree to disagree.

So, I'm curious about that kissing you thing . . .

 

[VelvetSin]

Has no idea what she wants out of life other than to have a good time and be admired.

That sounds like being a teenager, whether it has to do with bisexuality, or what to major in college if parents are pressuring her towards a career, or whether to wear her hair a certain way or another based upon differing trends, or the clothes she should wear, or to succumb to peer pressure when it comes to drinking or smoking or drugs. While the topic of conversation (bisexuality) is perhaps different than when others were growing up, it sounds like the exact same struggle most teens have faced since the beginning of time. Whether a girl gives in to the fad and pretends one thing or stays completely authentic to herself, she'll still eventually grow up and realize faking it to please others doesn't ultimately deceive anyone but herself. I don't think it hurts anyone in the long run. Some relationships may get established that are based on a lie, but that happens all the time in heterosexual relationships, so again, I can't see how this is any different.

I'm sorry your daughter is navigating a mine field of girls only claiming bisexuality because of coolness, but I'm not able to see how that struggle is any different than a girl dealing with boys of the same age who are pressuring her for sex not because they like her but because the other guys at school will think him cooler if he's got another notch in his bedpost.

ETA: I'm not trying to be offensive or belittle your daughter's situation at all, and I hope the above didn't read like that. I understand your heartache in wanting the best for her and wanting to create a safe and open environment for her. My point is just that her struggle is the same as every other young girls, just with a different flavor and gender of "fake date." The lesson it ultimately teaches all of us is to pick our partners carefully when wanting to forge something more than a one-night stand, make sure they're into us for US and not another bedpost notch with no consideration to what they'll leave in their wake, and how to value ourselves. It doesn't make it any easier for parents to watch, but it's the same struggle in my eyes.

Also, that 30% of boys would have been closet when I was growing up, so the new fad is good news I think because they can be open and true to themselves. When I was in high school, I remember stories of boys who discovered their sexuality and got beaten so badly they were hospitalized and parents had to move them out of a district. The attackers usually got punished, but it was the equivalent to a slap on the wrist. The fad under discussion makes it okay for true bisexuals and homosexuals to be true to themselves earlier and with less struggle, and it makes it "uncool" to beat someone nearly to death just because of their sexual preference.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Being a teen is not easy, pure and simple.

And its not easy in ways that we don't remember. You didn't try to get dates with girls back in your day, but I did. And it was as tough for me as it is for your girl. Teenaged girls have this little two-step they do-- just ask any guy!

Why do so many kids have health issues? Well partly it's because health issues don't kill kids off young as often as they once did. Of that 25% chronically ill kids how many of them do you think would have survived at all, maybe sixty years ago?

And the rest of it is fast food, slow lifestyles, bad school hours, too much pressure placed on them in areas they have no mastery of and not enough pressure in the places that they can grow in. it's endemic. As far as I can tell there isn't much any single family can do about it.

 

[KoPilot]

One more observation, a bit off topic, an awful lot of teens I know are "sick" a high percentage of the time. Some of this are minor things like stomach aches but a shocking number of them (I'd say at least 25%), have serious medical conditions. I'd really like to know why it seems so elevated for this generation. It breaks my heart. I'd also like to know what we can do to make their health better.

Food industry, internet (self-diagnosis), and professionals being eager to diagnose and stuff their patients full of pills. That's my opinion~

 

[FurryFury]

Bless you for that.

Thanks. I really enjoy helping people. These kids had no community to really feel safe to discuss the issues they were going through. In spite of the "popularity" of it. They still get verbally and physically attacked.

Many of them have their parents shut down, turn away or otherwise, "stop loving them." Some see it as "sinful." I can't stand that sort of thing. I really don't understand it either. So I reach out to these kids that are actually having issues with orientation, community and society.

great post, Furry.

Thanks. We've been in agreement much more lately.

My friend with benefits has twin daughters. One is claiming to be gay, the other thinks she's bi. They are 15 years old. The gay one has had problems with cutting herself as well. My friend is bi, she says she thinks her mother was bi too. So it's not really a surprise, it's just that now it's much more "out there" than when we were growing up

I had attractions to girls when I was about that age, but grew up in a conservative rural community in NZ in the early 70s and didn't even have a name for what I was feeling. I did as expected and got married, had kids, but those feelings were always there, just hidden. I finally had my first bi experience when I was 43. I have now accepted that this has always been a part of me and I now have the opportunity (and a regular partner) to indulge it

Just to clarify, Sir has encouraged me to find play partners but for myself not just for us, and I am always a willing participant in any play we do with other females.

Wonderful post. I'm so glad you've gotten to do this too. My girl came out to me as bi at about 13 or so. I was really happy for her because, that meant she could potentially "love" anyone and everyone.

A couple of years later she told me, no, I'm full on gay. I'm like, okay, that's cool too. As long as you are happy, I don't care what your orientation is.

She wanted community and a safe place. I tried to help her find or create it. She used to burn herself btw. I started a thread about it. Not sure how much of that had to do with what. Recently on new meds she tells me she can feel certain things for the first time. Broke my heart while being happy for her to hear that.

Meds scare me to death. We've only been trying to see if they help in the last year or so.

That sounds like being a teenager, whether it has to do with bisexuality, or what to major in college if parents are pressuring her towards a career, or whether to wear her hair a certain way or another based upon differing trends, or the clothes she should wear, or to succumb to peer pressure when it comes to drinking or smoking or drugs. While the topic of conversation (bisexuality) is perhaps different than when others were growing up, it sounds like the exact same struggle most teens have faced since the beginning of time. Whether a girl gives in to the fad and pretends one thing or stays completely authentic to herself, she'll still eventually grow up and realize faking it to please others doesn't ultimately deceive anyone but herself. I don't think it hurts anyone in the long run. Some relationships may get established that are based on a lie, but that happens all the time in heterosexual relationships, so again, I can't see how this is any different.

I'm sorry your daughter is navigating a mine field of girls only claiming bisexuality because of coolness, but I'm not able to see how that struggle is any different than a girl dealing with boys of the same age who are pressuring her for sex not because they like her but because the other guys at school will think him cooler if he's got another notch in his bedpost.

ETA: I'm not trying to be offensive or belittle your daughter's situation at all, and I hope the above didn't read like that. I understand your heartache in wanting the best for her and wanting to create a safe and open environment for her. My point is just that her struggle is the same as every other young girls, just with a different flavor and gender of "fake date." The lesson it ultimately teaches all of us is to pick our partners carefully when wanting to forge something more than a one-night stand, make sure they're into us for US and not another bedpost notch with no consideration to what they'll leave in their wake, and how to value ourselves. It doesn't make it any easier for parents to watch, but it's the same struggle in my eyes.

As I said, I found a large percentage of teens in my day were like that about different things. Somehow it still seems different these days though. To me at least. Maybe because I'm a parent. I would like my son and daughter to get a lot of experience and try things. They want to really be in love. Why couldn't I manage to raise more casual kids? LOL

FF

 

[FurryFury]

I totally agree with your post! I think it's a great one.

Being a teen is not easy, pure and simple.

And its not easy in ways that we don't remember. You didn't try to get dates with girls back in your day, but I did. And it was as tough for me as it is for your girl. Teenaged girls have this little two-step they do-- just ask any guy!

Why do so many kids have health issues? Well partly it's because health issues don't kill kids off young as often as they once did. Of that 25% chronically ill kids how many of them do you think would have survived at all, maybe sixty years ago?

And the rest of it is fast food, slow lifestyles, bad school hours, too much pressure placed on them in areas they have no mastery of and not enough pressure in the places that they can grow in. it's endemic. As far as I can tell there isn't much any single family can do about it.

 

[FurryFury]

There is that.

However, I have to say, I really am glad I have the internet when I'm sick. I find out what is wrong with me way quicker and less expensively than docs.

Docs all too often can't figure out shit where my health or others I know are concerned. Or maybe that's just a new marketing tool they use to keep you coming back in and paying them.

Food industry, internet (self-diagnosis), and professionals being eager to diagnose and stuff their patients full of pills. That's my opinion~

 

[Stella_Omega]

I totally agree with your post! I think it's a great one.

I love what you are doing for the kids around you. My kids have been raised in an unusually bohemian urban area, and most of their friends find acceptance at home-- but a few came out to me and Mr. Omega first, you know... for practice, like.

So, I'm curious about that kissing you thing . . .

Not in front of the kids, right?

 

[FurryFury]

I love what you are doing for the kids around you. My kids have been raised in an unusually bohemian urban area, and most of their friends find acceptance at home-- but a few came out to me and Mr. Omega first, you know... for practice, like.

That's awesome!

I wish we lived in such a place. We live in the Deep South Bible Belt. Things are rough round here for these issues.

 

[JMohegan]

Well, I don't think that pressure is anything new. I think there's some validity there, but I also think part of it is discomfort with female sexual desire.

As to men, I've definitely seen more male comfort with experimentation with other men. It's not at all as commonplace as female bisexuality, but it seems increased to me.

No question, people in general are less comfortable with female sexual desire and expression than male sexual desire and expression. I agree.

But if that's the case, and the bi fad is all about being cool, open minded, sexually adventurous, etc., then why isn't it more common in males? Not just more common in the absolute sense, but also more common than the trend is among females?

 

[sb2009]

I think for some, the "i'm bi" fad is to be attract male attention....because you know, two women together is hot, two men is gross...etc etc etc or as someone said "porn bi."

 

[Stella_Omega]

No question, people in general are less comfortable with female sexual desire and expression than male sexual desire and expression. I agree.

But if that's the case, and the bi fad is all about being cool, open minded, sexually adventurous, etc., then why isn't it more common in males? Not just more common in the absolute sense, but also more common than the trend is among females?

Because we are also dealing with a more pronounced male homophobia when it comes to men actually demonstrating their sexuality with each other. (And you know damn well that part of that phobia is the fear of being made girlish.)

 

[intothewoods]

No question, people in general are less comfortable with female sexual desire and expression than male sexual desire and expression. I agree.

But if that's the case, and the bi fad is all about being cool, open minded, sexually adventurous, etc., then why isn't it more common in males? Not just more common in the absolute sense, but also more common than the trend is among females?

Well, the point Stella made that really resonated with me is that this fad is infintely more preferable than homophobia. I don't know that it's all about open mindedness and zero playing a part for men. It's likely a mixture of the two. Fear of/revulsion by male homosexuality does run deep. It will always be harder for gay or bi men to come out. On the other hand, I've heard some people say that female sexuality is more fluid than male sexuality. You know, I just think none of it is easily explained.

 

[JMohegan]

Because we are also dealing with a more pronounced male homophobia when it comes to men actually demonstrating their sexuality with each other. (And you know damn well that part of that phobia is the fear of being made girlish.)

I wonder how many bi females find bi men more attractive than straight, or even attractive period.

I remember Netzach saying that she could only be attracted to a guy who was bi. A statement which I found very reasonable - albeit personally devastating.

 

[ownedsubgal]

On the other hand, I've heard some people say that female sexuality is more fluid than male sexuality.

that one always makes me . somehow i think the same folks who think two women being sexual together is natural and beautiful but two men being sexual together is repulsive, are also the ones saying "female sexuality is just more fluid than male sexuality." lol

 

[intothewoods]

that one always makes me . somehow i think the same folks who think two women being sexual together is natural and beautiful but two men being sexual together is repulsive, are also the ones saying "female sexuality is just more fluid than male sexuality." lol

I actually heard it on Dan Savage's podcast, and he's a gay man. But it's hard to know how much of that is genetics and how much is cultural programming.

 

[Stella_Omega]

I wonder how many bi females find bi men more attractive than straight, or even attractive period.

I remember Netzach saying that she could only be attracted to a guy who was bi. A statement which I found very reasonable - albeit personally devastating.

You have NO idea how many women fantasise about men together... Many fantasise about fictional characters -- for reasons we don't have time to get into here-- but;
here's a thousand; http://slashfic.org/
here are some more; http://www.slashfiction.net/
Vampire men together; http://spanderfiles.com/contents.html
Magician men together; http://www.squidge.org/~peja/harrypotter/slash.htm
Pirates together (and marines) http://www.squidge.org/horizon/
Men doing really kinky things; http://kink-bingo.dreamwidth.org/ (and women and others-- check out the "tentacles" tag OMG! There are almost two thousand people named as watching or a member of that site...

Here are sources for original M/M smexyness; http://www.google.com/search?q=original+slash

Aren't you gad you asked?

I actually heard it on Dan Savage's podcast, and he's a gay man. But it's hard to know how much of that is genetics and how much is cultural programming.

it's more hormones in the brain. Testosterone makes the brain more linear.
http://www.eje-online.org/cgi/content/full/155/suppl_1/S107

Male-to-female transfolk will often say that the world opens up to them-- they see shades of color, understand nuances of emotion, things taste different.

Female-to-male transfolk will say that they become more effective in society-- business, hierarchal issues.

 

[ownedsubgal]

I actually heard it on Dan Savage's podcast, and he's a gay man. But it's hard to know how much of that is genetics and how much is cultural programming.

true. somehow i don't think the ancient greeks and romans were getting this same message.

 

[Stella_Omega]

true. somehow i don't think the ancient greeks and romans were getting this same message.

There were some pretty strict rules about who, how and when, in both Greek and Roman society. You were a catcher until your beard grew in, then you were expected to keep all dick out of your ass because you were a MAN and MEN didn't take it up the butt. Of course this rule was ignored a lot, and a lot of satirical verse makes fun of men who still like it up the butt.

The gay leatherman groups are very hierarchical, as are almost every male-created social entity-- the Scouts, the Masons, fraternities...

Hippies were called sissies. by the (male) squares. many non-linear Polynesian societies were considered "effeminate" by the (male) Europeans that found them.

 

[Soumis]

I don't have quite the same distaste for the word "lifestyle" that so many express here. A lifestyle to me is choosing actions and society that reflect your beliefs and interests. I think that submission can be a personality trait, a kink, or a lifestyle all depends on how a person chooses to allow it to influence their life. To some people the lifestyle is having an active bdsm oriented social life, to others is practicing D/s in a long term relationship at home, however a person wants to define their given situation is fine by me.

As to the tangent, I have to agree with Stella here. It makes me very happy to know that more teens are exploring, experimenting, thinking and talking openly about their sexual orientation. I see it as huge progress in terms of society in general. I think that such openness is pivotal for GLBT civil rights. It helps dispel myths and fears about the "unknown." I think those teens that are acting under societal pressure are the same ones that would have been promiscuous, goth, preppy, virgins, (insert fad of the generation) in a different year.

I'm not so far out of my teen years that I can't remember discussing gay friends at school with my mother. Was she comfortable conversing with her ultraconservative Catholic beliefs? No, but were we able to talk? Yes, and I have always been grateful and appreciative of that fact.

On my own tangent, I need to learn to not answer the phone when posting on lit. When asked what I was up to I just about said, "Trying to put into words my ideas on submissive lifestyle," to my mother, no less.