Submissive vs. Slave

[HottieMama]

Gracie....

i am not going to quote you because you said you were going to delete it, but i think you are amazing and i am honored to call you my friend.

 

[myinnerslut]

ive just about given up trying to define myself. submissive and slave both have such ideas already attached to them, and neither premade definition fits me well. not only that, but the labe that gets attached to me reflects A as well. i am what i am. and "his puppy" is as good a label as any for me.

 

[BiBunny]

*Hugs gracie* I'm not going to quote you, either, but I just wanted to tell you that I think you're very brave. And I can definitely relate to the need to serve being a curse....

 

[Etoile]

Have to say I have, though they are few and far between. There are more who like to think they are than those who can actually authentically live it.

Catalina

But doesn't that speak to what a TWOO SWAVE would be like? Doesn't it only matter between the two partners, and whether something is "authentic" to an outsider is irrelevant?

 

[VelvetDarkness]

Have to say I have, though they are few and far between. There are more who like to think they are than those who can actually authentically live it.

But doesn't that speak to what a TWOO SWAVE would be like? Doesn't it only matter between the two partners, and whether something is "authentic" to an outsider is irrelevant?

I think that personal definitions within a relationship are the most important thing. What an outsider thinks is mostly irrelevant. At the same time, some people pick a label because they like the sound of it and their actual dynamic bears little resemblance to what lifestylers generally understand the term to mean.

Some people do like to sound more kinky than they are. Why they think anyone cares is beyond me.

 

[kmiss21]

submissive

hehe, i could never be the dominant one, i'm why too quiet and too tiny (5'2" little girl) to take charge.

besides i kinda like being told what to do

 

[Homburg]

But doesn't that speak to what a TWOO SWAVE would be like? Doesn't it only matter between the two partners, and whether something is "authentic" to an outsider is irrelevant?

I'm not one that would use the words "true" or "authentic", nor would I say that what someone else is doing is wrong.

I will say that I react differently to someone that truly s a slave at heart, whether they recognise it or not. If I notice that set of characteristics, or whatever it is that I sense, it really does cause a change in attitude towards the individual.

I've done my level best to figure out what it is too. Tried to cite similarities, consistent traits, etc. I can't put my finger on it. I don't pretend to think that I'm always correct, nor that I can pick a slave out of any group of people. I've just noticed how I react to various people that self-identify as slaves and mean it, and to people that I did not know were slaves when I met them initially. Different sorts of people get different sorts of responses.

I dislike this concept, honestly. It makes me feel like there's some functional difference between slaves and submissives, and it is not just a lifestyle choice. *shrug* It's a perception. If anything, the fact that this perception runs counter to my personal beliefs on the topic gives me more pause for consideration.

I consider these titles to be supernumerary. I consider most of the labels to be pretentious and assumptive. But I would be lying if I said that I reacted the same way to submissives/bottoms as I do to slaves. And, if it makes the idea more palatable, I react differently to bottoms than I do to submissives as well. Still, pick whatever label makes you happy. *shrug* I'm not worried about whether or not your version is the same as mine.

 

[catalina_francisco]

But doesn't that speak to what a TWOO SWAVE would be like? Doesn't it only matter between the two partners, and whether something is "authentic" to an outsider is irrelevant?

To some extent, but when I see someone refer to themselves as a Master/Mistress and yet they are frightened of their own shadow, show no ability to lead or make decisions, seem whining and weak, I have to question if there is any authenticity in their claims. While I agree it is up to those involved, that only goes so far for me as I just cannot join the popular PC notion you can say and be anything you want without having to resemble the common, if somewhat a little vague understanding of what basics that label refers to...IOW, if someone wants to call themselves Dominant, I expect there to be some level of dominance involved as opposed to them submitting to the will of another in every way. That is what I mean when I refer to being authentic...it is more to do with the people involved and given expectations, understandings than a judgement from those outside the relationship....if as a slave I go looking for an Owner, I do not expect to be with someone who will continually ask me what we should be doing, how to do things, ask me to make all the decisions, provide the dominance for them...just doesn't work for me and I loke to know what I a dealing with....good luck to those who wouldn't feel cheated to find they had taken on someone seeking exactly the same role as them, but pretending to a point they were the opposite, it just isn't me and I have taken too long finding out what I do need in a partner to accept someone fucking with my head and life like that.

Catalina

 

[catalina_francisco]

But I would be lying if I said that I reacted the same way to submissives/bottoms as I do to slaves. And, if it makes the idea more palatable, I react differently to bottoms than I do to submissives as well. Still, pick whatever label makes you happy. *shrug* I'm not worried about whether or not your version is the same as mine.

I don't see it as a huge sin. When I was searching for the one for me and still quite green and inexperienced, all the experienced PYLs I met told me I was not a submissive or bottom but a slave at heart through and through. I didn't feel it made me special, but it did reflect the role I felt I would find more fulfillment in and that has not changed with experience and the passing of years. If we cannot define who we are and what we require within the relationship roles and criteria, how the heck does anyone think they will ever find happiness and contentment, let alone a successful D/s relationship that works for both? Call me boring, but I like to know who I will be waking up beside in the morning instead of playing games of wait and see.

Catalina

 

[Caitlynne]

Nobody has stepped up to answer that one yet. Do we not have enough self-identified slaves on here? Or am I just that off the mark?

I was hesitant to give an opinion until I thought a little about what I sense and whether or not I self-identify as a slave. Thinking done, so just the self-identification left to go. See I don't self-identify as a slave at all, but prior to reading your statement that was because I'm not currently enslaved. I'd previously thought that M/s were active roles, while D/s can be identifications. But after considering your comments, if we allow that they are true for not only you but me as well, I'd identify as a slave.

That said, yes, I do have a different reaction to Dominants, Sadists and Tops. Truthfully, my experience is that Masters can fall into either the Dominant or Sadist category as well, so I'm not going to make a distinction there. But, I do have a different reaction to the other side of the coin.

I can't describe what it is though. It's an internal thing and it's not attraction per se. Although oftentimes I am attracted to one over the other, but it isn't really an attraction, it's a recognition of some sort.

In any event, using the famous old words, "I can't describe it, but I know it when I see it". I just have some deep reaction to a certain kind of PYL. They jsut trigger some kind of service thing in me. I've used the analogy of the servants of the Egyptian royalty. The kind of devotion that would have sealed me into a tomb along with my Master after he died.

Not that I'm looking to die mind you, but the devotion triggered by some types is pretty intense and that is the best analogy I can come up with to describe the phenomena. I "feel" it inside.

That's not to say I run off and serve every one I meet, but you asked for a response on how I feel it on my side of the aisle. I do feel a difference and it is pretty stark actually.

 

[Homburg]

To some extent, but when I see someone refer to themselves as a Master/Mistress and yet they are frightened of their own shadow, show no ability to lead or make decisions, seem whining and weak, I have to question if there is any authenticity in their claims. While I agree it is up to those involved, that only goes so far for me as I just cannot join the popular PC notion you can say and be anything you want without having to resemble the common, if somewhat a little vague understanding of what basics that label refers to

I look at it the same way as gender identification. The 300lb burly, bearded dude in schoolgirl dress obviously is not a woman, but I'll refer to him as "she" if that is the label he wants. In short, I'll respect the label, and use it, but won't believe it is truly applicable.

And I don't know that it's PC. Just respect and unwillingness to harsh someone else's kink.

----------------------------------

I don't see it as a huge sin. When I was searching for the one for me and still quite green and inexperienced, all the experienced PYLs I met told me I was not a submissive or bottom but a slave at heart through and through. I didn't feel it made me special, but it did reflect the role I felt I would find more fulfillment in and that has not changed with experience and the passing of years. If we cannot define who we are and what we require within the relationship roles and criteria, how the heck does anyone think they will ever find happiness and contentment, let alone a successful D/s relationship that works for both? Call me boring, but I like to know who I will be waking up beside in the morning instead of playing games of wait and see.

Catalina

I really think tha sort of self-awareness is key to this milieu. I'm glad to see that I am not the only one who sees this sort of difference.

-------------------------------------------

I was hesitant to give an opinion until I thought a little about what I sense and whether or not I self-identify as a slave. Thinking done, so just the self-identification left to go. See I don't self-identify as a slave at all, but prior to reading your statement that was because I'm not currently enslaved. I'd previously thought that M/s were active roles, while D/s can be identifications. But after considering your comments, if we allow that they are true for not only you but me as well, I'd identify as a slave.

That said, yes, I do have a different reaction to Dominants, Sadists and Tops. Truthfully, my experience is that Masters can fall into either the Dominant or Sadist category as well, so I'm not going to make a distinction there. But, I do have a different reaction to the other side of the coin.

I can't describe what it is though. It's an internal thing and it's not attraction per se. Although oftentimes I am attracted to one over the other, but it isn't really an attraction, it's a recognition of some sort.

In any event, using the famous old words, "I can't describe it, but I know it when I see it". I just have some deep reaction to a certain kind of PYL. They jsut trigger some kind of service thing in me. I've used the analogy of the servants of the Egyptian royalty. The kind of devotion that would have sealed me into a tomb along with my Master after he died.

Not that I'm looking to die mind you, but the devotion triggered by some types is pretty intense and that is the best analogy I can come up with to describe the phenomena. I "feel" it inside.

That's not to say I run off and serve every one I meet, but you asked for a response on how I feel it on my side of the aisle. I do feel a difference and it is pretty stark actually.

Thank you. I was circling around devotion as the key, but hadn't quite landed on it. I really feel like that may be as significant part of it. The tomb example being perfect. When I see that level of devoted service, it sparks something in me. Instant affection is the usual response. I just instinctively like that sort of person. Were I a speculating sort, I would hazard to guess that this specific set of characteristics is why my gal and I got on so perfectly from the start (I asked her to marry me one week after we first started dating). Interesting to examine it in hindsight.

 

[VelvetDarkness]

Nobody has stepped up to answer that one yet. Do we not have enough self-identified slaves on here? Or am I just that off the mark?

I haven't met many self-confessed Doms or subs IRL so I can't say with any authority that I react to them differently.

Having said that, I do identify as a slave and I know that personally I can see different traits and schools of thought between people on the boards here. I can read newbies quite easily and haven't often been wrong about how far into their kink they are happy playing.

 

[Netzach]

I look at it the same way as gender identification. The 300lb burly, bearded dude in schoolgirl dress obviously is not a woman, but I'll refer to him as "she" if that is the label he wants. In short, I'll respect the label, and use it, but won't believe it is truly applicable.

And I don't know that it's PC. Just respect and unwillingness to harsh someone else's kink.

----------------------------------



I really think tha sort of self-awareness is key to this milieu. I'm glad to see that I am not the only one who sees this sort of difference.

-------------------------------------------




Thank you. I was circling around devotion as the key, but hadn't quite landed on it. I really feel like that may be as significant part of it. The tomb example being perfect. When I see that level of devoted service, it sparks something in me. Instant affection is the usual response. I just instinctively like that sort of person. Were I a speculating sort, I would hazard to guess that this specific set of characteristics is why my gal and I got on so perfectly from the start (I asked her to marry me one week after we first started dating). Interesting to examine it in hindsight.

I think, personally, that as a community it's interesting that we're fine with this notion of a slave belonging to one owner, and being neutral or even Dominant to the rest of the world, but we're really really itchy around the idea of a Master being really neutral or even *submissive* in other social contexts and being Master to one person and one only. I'm as guilty of it as anyone, I want *evidence*

I'm not singling out anyone's posts, I'm just noticing a possible trend, stick with me.

My drive to own, my Sadistic impulse to reduce to nothing but what I want in, my inner Tyrant, is not something that gets out to play except with Harvey as its muse. Others can kind of coax it out for a spin, but really, it's art with the *right* slave and it's probably well hidden without. With someone else it's fun, it's like going to a movie where things blow up - never bad. With the right slave it's like watching Kurosawa by comparison.

I've given up on trying to even identify people outside of their self-identifications, that way lies madness. I've met some people who have all the trappings of the ultimate as Master/Mistress/Leader and who really get a person caught up in their aura, only to find that they are as much of a mess as I am and often more - I don't buy into aura and awe as much as I did when I was younger in the community. Take what you can from people and really save your pedestal for your fiction. I know that I really don't stay on a pedestal for long.

Most of the people who really have their lives together in a way I personally can only envy are subs/slaves/bottoms. Fortunately I have some other thing about me, I'm not sure what, but I guess my guys all see it, which they feel they do NOT have and which inspires them to submit and inspires them to give me sadistic free rein as much as I have it.

 

[Caitlynne]

Thank you. I was circling around devotion as the key, but hadn't quite landed on it. I really feel like that may be as significant part of it. The tomb example being perfect. When I see that level of devoted service, it sparks something in me. Instant affection is the usual response. I just instinctively like that sort of person. Were I a speculating sort, I would hazard to guess that this specific set of characteristics is why my gal and I got on so perfectly from the start (I asked her to marry me one week after we first started dating). Interesting to examine it in hindsight.

You're quite welcome. It was actually interesting to think about. I thank you for asking the questions.

 

[Homburg]

I think, personally, that as a community it's interesting that we're fine with this notion of a slave belonging to one owner, and being neutral or even Dominant to the rest of the world, but we're really really itchy around the idea of a Master being really neutral or even *submissive* in other social contexts and being Master to one person and one only. I'm as guilty of it as anyone, I want *evidence*

I'm not singling out anyone's posts, I'm just noticing a possible trend, stick with me.

My drive to own, my Sadistic impulse to reduce to nothing but what I want in, my inner Tyrant, is not something that gets out to play except with Harvey as its muse. Others can kind of coax it out for a spin, but really, it's art with the *right* slave and it's probably well hidden without. With someone else it's fun, it's like going to a movie where things blow up - never bad. With the right slave it's like watching Kurosawa by comparison.

I've given up on trying to even identify people outside of their self-identifications, that way lies madness.

See, I don't really have a problem with this idea. I've said before how certain people cause me to react with fire and pasionate searing Dominance, whereas other elicit happy topping and naught more. I will tie down just about anything that moves when I'm in the mood, but precious few approach the sort of meditative joy I find with my gal in the ropes.

So I can grok the idea of Master to one and whatever to everyone else. I'm just wondering if there is some slippery something that makes a Master different from a Dom, much as I personally find a difference between slaves and submissives that transcends temporal relationship dynamics.

Then again, I associate no magic with the title, or any title.

 

[Homburg]

You're quite welcome. It was actually interesting to think about. I thank you for asking the questions.

I always, always love it when you reply, be it to my posts or others. I truly appreciate your manner of thought, Caitlynne.

 

[Netzach]

I always, always love it when you reply, be it to my posts or others. I truly appreciate your manner of thought, Caitlynne.

Agreed. I go out of my way to read 'em.

 

[Netzach]

See, I don't really have a problem with this idea. I've said before how certain people cause me to react with fire and pasionate searing Dominance, whereas other elicit happy topping and naught more. I will tie down just about anything that moves when I'm in the mood, but precious few approach the sort of meditative joy I find with my gal in the ropes.

So I can grok the idea of Master to one and whatever to everyone else. I'm just wondering if there is some slippery something that makes a Master different from a Dom, much as I personally find a difference between slaves and submissives that transcends temporal relationship dynamics.

Then again, I associate no magic with the title, or any title.

Your first paragraph makes total sense. I'm similarly reactive and fluid, definitely, but I bet you could have guessed that.

 

[Homburg]

Your first paragraph makes total sense. I'm similarly reactive and fluid, definitely, but I bet you could have guessed that.

Yup

Then again, there's other similarities going on here in outlook, and you've brought up points that really got me to thinking about the way I look at things. I still need to take some time to look more into Leather.

 

[Caitlynne]

I always, always love it when you reply, be it to my posts or others. I truly appreciate your manner of thought, Caitlynne.

Agreed. I go out of my way to read 'em.

Thank you! Both of you. Truth is, I do the same for both of you. As silly as it can sound, I hang on every word you both write sometimes.

But then, I wonder [for me] if my reaction is exactly the point Homburg was making. I'll tell you why. I'm not even a little bi. I've learned over the years that I'm basically straight as an arrow. Yet, that devotion trigger happens whenever I read Netzach. I can 'feel' that difference that I can't describe. I have the same triggered feeling with Homburg as well, I can feel the difference, but since he is within my sexual orientation, it's not as stark an example of the 'triggered' thing. That feeling seems to supercede even my sexual orientation. Which is why I call it devotion. It's beyond kink and sex and all the things that are part of orientation and it becomes something else. Something that fits like a piece to a puzzle for me.

In any event, you're both making me blush, but I thank you. You've both just made my day.

 

[Homburg]

Thank you! Both of you. Truth is, I do the same for both of you. As silly as it can sound, I hang on every word you both write sometimes.

But then, I wonder [for me] if my reaction is exactly the point Homburg was making. I'll tell you why. I'm not even a little bi. I've learned over the years that I'm basically straight as an arrow. Yet, that devotion trigger happens whenever I read Netzach. I can 'feel' that difference that I can't describe. I have the same triggered feeling with Homburg as well, I can feel the difference, but since he is within my sexual orientation, it's not as stark an example of the 'triggered' thing. That feeling seems to supercede even my sexual orientation. Which is why I call it devotion. It's beyond kink and sex and all the things that are part of orientation and it becomes something else. Something that fits like a piece to a puzzle for me.

In any event, you're both making me blush, but I thank you. You've both just made my day.

Made you blush? Hell, I'm blushing.

Thank you, sincerely.

 

[Netzach]

Thank you! Both of you. Truth is, I do the same for both of you. As silly as it can sound, I hang on every word you both write sometimes.

But then, I wonder [for me] if my reaction is exactly the point Homburg was making. I'll tell you why. I'm not even a little bi. I've learned over the years that I'm basically straight as an arrow. Yet, that devotion trigger happens whenever I read Netzach. I can 'feel' that difference that I can't describe. I have the same triggered feeling with Homburg as well, I can feel the difference, but since he is within my sexual orientation, it's not as stark an example of the 'triggered' thing. That feeling seems to supercede even my sexual orientation. Which is why I call it devotion. It's beyond kink and sex and all the things that are part of orientation and it becomes something else. Something that fits like a piece to a puzzle for me.

In any event, you're both making me blush, but I thank you. You've both just made my day.

It's ok. I'd just make you lace up my back and do my dishes and I'd torment your buttocks and let someone else screw me silly.

 

[Homburg]

I've given up on trying to even identify people outside of their self-identifications, that way lies madness. I've met some people who have all the trappings of the ultimate as Master/Mistress/Leader and who really get a person caught up in their aura, only to find that they are as much of a mess as I am and often more - I don't buy into aura and awe as much as I did when I was younger in the community. Take what you can from people and really save your pedestal for your fiction. I know that I really don't stay on a pedestal for long.

Years and years ago I had someone ask me how I always ended up in leadership roles in our social group when I obviously did not want them, and how I kept it together. I said the secret to leadership is simple "Have a strong voice, and a direction to move in. That's it." Not loud, just strong. Not necessarily a good direction, any one will do. Declare "This way. We are going this way." with strength, and people will start to move that way. Keep them moving fast enough, and they won't ask why. If they do, hopefully the journey gave you enough time to come up with a reason for that direction.

It never lasts though. Eventually they figure out that you are as clueless as they are. At that point you had better have accomplishments that you can point to. That's usually when the pedestal gets put away.

Most of the people who really have their lives together in a way I personally can only envy are subs/slaves/bottoms. Fortunately I have some other thing about me, I'm not sure what, but I guess my guys all see it, which they feel they do NOT have and which inspires them to submit and inspires them to give me sadistic free rein as much as I have it.

And this is so true, it glows.

 

[Caitlynne]

It's ok. I'd just make you lace up my back and do my dishes and I'd torment your buttocks and let someone else screw me silly.

LOL Works for me.

Thought I'd add something about pedestals. In my experience, I think that PYL's are put on pedestals by pyl's. I think it's as big a fall for the lower case as the upper case. But here is where I think devotion and service carry someone like me through it all. I don't serve perfection. I'm not devoted to some ideal or someone who rescues me from reality. In short, service doesn't spring from love in me. Hell even love doesn't drive me to place PYL's on a pedestal. At least the kind I think the two of you are talking about Netzach and Homburg.

In fact the appeal for me, what can really drive my passion, are the flaws. There is a certain angst in service to a D or M even with his flaws. In fact there is a sense of depth in it for me. Loving or serving a perfect Master is well, easy. He's never wrong. He never farts. He knows my every whim and wish [and of course I know his. *cough*] It's all so romantic and breathless and perfect. Everyone is on a pedestal and life is perfect. And although that sounds sarcastic, for many people it is true. It's just not what fuels my devotion at all.

There is a kind of devotion that springs for a different place. It doesn't come from the perfect ideal fantasy driven place. Using the same analogy, not all the servants of the Pharaohs were entombed because they thought their Masters were perfect. They did it because they were devoted. It was not the perfection of their Master that fueled the devotion, it was the passion of the servant. It is in fact the one thing that I still own--my passion.

So for me, what might be described as the imperfections in PYL's that cause the fall from a pedestal, I find to be the most appealing of all. Not because they are imperfections, but because they are real and reflect a real human being. One I have the desire to serve and devote myself to.

There simply is not the same kind of fulfillment in such devotion if the damn guy is prefect. There is not the same kind of fulfillment if he is way up on a pedestal and I'm always down on my knees out of reach. It all sounds well and good and everyone is in their respective positions, but it doesn't trigger the same kind of feeling in me at all. I wish it did, fantasies, and Doms on pedestals are easier to fall in love with and serve. Your own dreams can lead the way. Facing reality, accepting his needs [on or off that damn pedestal] is harder in one way, but drives the old passions better in another for me. If that makes sense?

It's hard to explain because it's not so much about how perfect or imperfect he is, but how I respond inside to his needs. Once I've had that response, I don't need him to ever be on or off that pedestal. All I need is for him to continue to be exactly who he is because that's what I've responded to.

Well, maybe not all I need, I mean I need a PYL to accept my devotion, but that's a given. I'm not into the kind of masochistic devotion that makes it all unrequited. But I do recognize the instinct in myself with PYL's that I don't serve.

 

[BiBunny]

But then, I wonder [for me] if my reaction is exactly the point Homburg was making. I'll tell you why. I'm not even a little bi. I've learned over the years that I'm basically straight as an arrow. Yet, that devotion trigger happens whenever I read Netzach. I can 'feel' that difference that I can't describe. I have the same triggered feeling with Homburg as well, I can feel the difference, but since he is within my sexual orientation, it's not as stark an example of the 'triggered' thing. That feeling seems to supercede even my sexual orientation. Which is why I call it devotion. It's beyond kink and sex and all the things that are part of orientation and it becomes something else. Something that fits like a piece to a puzzle for me.

In any event, you're both making me blush, but I thank you. You've both just made my day.

Good lord, you just sort of summed up everything I find myself feeling about submission there, and you weren't even talking about me.

I've said many times before that I'm really not all that submissive. To get me to submit, another person has to be a.) in the 10% or so of people who are more dominant than I am and b.) not an asshole about it (which is a biggie). If somebody fits those two criteria, I find myself intimidated by him/her--a good kind of intimidation, but intimidated nonetheless. I guess the intimidation factor is where the "Master/Mistress" label applies in my mind.

And, yes, it happens to an extent on Lit. If I find myself a bit nervous about sending someone a PM, like Netz for example, my inner "Twue Dom/me" radar goes off big time. I find myself being all deferential and shit, even when I know I don't have to be.

Wow, that was a screwy and convoluted post. Did it make any sense at all? If it did, I may add more later.