Submissive vs. Slave

[intothewoods]

Ok, like Antigone and her principles. Better example probably.

Better, thanks.

 

[Caitlynne]

Ok, like Antigone and her principles. Better example probably.

Oh it is. Thanks.

 

[Homburg]

Really? You don't understand why analogizing a consensual relationship to government slavery is completely insensitive?

ITW, you aren't in anything remotely close to an M/s relationship, and you've said before that you can't personally wrap your brain around that sort of dynamic. The folks that are in M/s relationships haven't piped up complaining. Not saying they won't, but they haven't so far. I know I was not insulted by it, largely because I understand the emotion behind that image.

I'm not saying that you've no right to your opinion, you do, but is it not indicative that the folks posting in this thread currently who are in M/s relationships haven't hopped on Caitlynne for choosing that image?

Sure, it's not a 100% direct comparison between what we do and what they did, but I doubt that all Egyptian slaves had to be forced to be entombed. I'd bet some went willingly into the grave with their owners. This is the sort of image being referred to.

ETA: Antigone for the win!

 

[intothewoods]

Well, now I see what your irritations is. Thank you for your response. I pretty much think that any discussion about slavery, consensual or non-consensual, is good grist for another thread though. I'd be happy to participate if you want to discuss it.

As to my insensitivity, you'll just have to suffer my shortcomings. I do have them and they do show up every now and then.

Given how well this exchange has gone...

 

[intothewoods]

ITW, you aren't in anything remotely close to an M/s relationship, and you've said before that you can't personally wrap your brain around that sort of dynamic. The folks that are in M/s relationships haven't piped up complaining. Not saying they won't, but they haven't so far. I know I was not insulted by it, largely because I understand the emotion behind that image.

I'm not saying that you've no right to your opinion, you do, but is it not indicative that the folks posting in this thread currently who are in M/s relationships haven't hopped on Caitlynne for choosing that image?

Sure, it's not a 100% direct comparison between what we do and what they did, but I doubt that all Egyptian slaves had to be forced to be entombed. I'd bet some went willingly into the grave with their owners. This is the sort of image being referred to.

ETA: Antigone for the win!

I don't think any of us - M/s or not- are qualified to speak to what Egyptian slaves, or any forced slaves, felt like.

 

[Homburg]

Given how well this exchange has gone...

It's like a discussion of penis size. Somebody always feels somehow inadequate. It's about as relevant as penis size too. After all, does it matter how big or small my wang is to anybody but me ans my partner/s? By the same token, does it matter how devoted/submissive/whatever a pyl is to anybody but himself and his partner/s?

I don't think any of us - M/s or not- are qualified to speak to what Egyptian slaves, or any forced slaves, felt like.

My apologies. I thought you were arguing from some sort of defense of consensual slavery. I see that you are instead part of the Egyptian Slave Sensitivity Special Interest Group

 

[JMohegan]

I can dig this, and I got it from the first post, just not the second.

The core issue here, in my opinion, is that lack of inclusion does NOT imply exclusion, and that it the tack that this thread is headed on. No one said slaves own devotion. And we're all adults. We don't need to be told that we can be devoted to even though we're not a slaves. And I'm honestly not trying to be snide when I say that, even if it sounds that way. (I can't reword that as not-snide without gutting the point, my apologies.)

This board is very inclusive. I dig that. But, damn, there is no reason to look for exclusion where none exists. Let's face it, if I tell you, Bunny, that you have gorgeous hair (and you do), that does not mean that Netzach does not have gorgeous hair. If I say Jack is a damned smart guy (and he is), it does not mean that VelvetDarkness is not smart. By the same token, if I say that slaves show great devotion, would it not stand to reason that I've not said a blessed thing about submissives, switches, dominants, etc?

None of this is inclusive language, sure, but does it need to be? If people get fired up every time a given group is not acknowledged in the discussion of a positive trait, we're going to have a whole lot of additional noise obscuring signal around here.

ETA: This post as a whole is sounding more pointed than intended. Please do me the favour of reading it conversationally, as that is how I intended it.

Your comments in this post are once again distorting my remarks. Conversationally, okay, but a distortion nevertheless.

I never said that Caitlynne claimed "slaves own devotion".

Instead, my initial understanding was that, in her opinion, the identifying feature of a slave is the capacity for devotion so strong that it produces the urge to follow a mate to the grave.

My post was not a demand for inclusion. It was simple disagreement with the idea that four legs could constitute a meaningful identifying feature of a horse, when rats, dogs, cats, etc., all have four legs too.

 

[JMohegan]

I don't think any of us - M/s or not- are qualified to speak to what Egyptian slaves, or any forced slaves, felt like.

Bullseye.

 

[intothewoods]

My apologies. I thought you were arguing from some sort of defense of consensual slavery. I see that you are instead part of the Egyptian Slave Sensitivity Special Interest Group

Thank you for the laugh, Homburg. I needed that. I'm really under the weather. Sorry for being a big ol' soppy liberal, but I do think it's asinine to suggest there are similarities. I'm sure some slaves went "willingly," but come the fuck on, let's question the use of the world willingly there. And I hate to play the Jew card, but...no really, I hate to play it! It just doesn't get you what it used to, ya know?

 

[Caitlynne]

Instead, my initial understanding was that, in her opinion, the identifying feature of a slave is the capacity for devotion so strong that it produces the urge to follow a mate to the grave.

Hopefully we've cleared that all up, but just to make sure, I did not use the analogy as an identifying feature for a slave, I used it to describe a triggered reaction in me personally. That's a big difference. I used it to illustrate a particular feature in me that is triggered by certain PYL's and I related that feeling to the slaves in Egypt. I don't want to beat a dead horse either, but my comments were describing a reaction to others, not a feature in all slaves.

 

[JMohegan]

Hopefully we've cleared that all up, but just to make sure, I did not use the analogy as an identifying feature for a slave, I used it to describe a triggered reaction in me personally. That's a big difference. I used it to illustrate a particular feature in me that is triggered by certain PYL's and I related that feeling to the slaves in Egypt. I don't want to beat a dead horse either, but my comments were describing a reaction to others, not a feature in all slaves.

Yes, we did clear it up.

I would have dropped the issue by now, but I found Homburg's continued distortion of my remarks to be objectionable.

 

[Caitlynne]

Given how well this exchange has gone...

I think it's gone quite well. Don't you?

 

[Caitlynne]

Yes, we did clear it up.

Cool. Thanks.

 

[INSIDEYOURMIND]

I hesitated to reply to this thread because doing so would certainly offend someone.
I live a M/s life with my little girl, (sinnocent, to those not in the know), if you meet her in real life you may not even know that she was a slave, she is as she stated a person, and only a slave to me. She has a strong personality, and can even appear to have a dominant persona. She is a mother, a wife, a caretaker, and does all of these well. She will let you know quickly if she disagrees with you, and makes sure you know her opinion, BUT........
Do not mistake her strong personality, she is a living, breathing, carbon based, human SLAVE, but a slave only to me. She is not required to, or even allowed to bow to anyone else but me.
The only label that should be important to anyone are the labels you chose to go by. You are or aren't a sub or slave, who cares except those you care enough to hear the label from.
I am still waiting for my degree from the Youbetcha Master's School, do you wake up one day and decide 'I am going to be a ____________ (pick the applicable label), I believe that you are predestined to be something, it is just the combination of your influences, the rotation of the sun, the alignment of the planets, yada, yada, yada, ad nauseam. You can have __________ (pick again) tendencies, but until you get to experience them, you'll never actually know. taking this theory to the vanilla world, how many people could have been great artists, or musicians, who never even tried to be.
I guess my point is you are who you are, if another person in your life likes you that way, who really cares what anyone else thinks. STICKS & STONES, (you know the rest).

And one more thing...................

subbielez lol Yeah, it's pretty well-defined. And yeah, I do other things too not just being manhandled and tortured and fucked

Can a lez be "manhandled"?

 

[Etoile]

As I've said before when history is brought into the picture, making any comparison between historical slavery (which is now illegal in all parts of the world) and consensual slavery (which has no legal standing) is folly.

Also, just 'cause it makes me twitch, I have to say - "Lez" is considered offensive by many lesbians, or at least immature.

 

[Homburg]

Your comments in this post are once again distorting my remarks. Conversationally, okay, but a distortion nevertheless.

The post quoted was started prior to your clarifying post hit the thread.

--------------------------------------------

Thank you for the laugh, Homburg. I needed that. I'm really under the weather. Sorry for being a big ol' soppy liberal, but I do think it's asinine to suggest there are similarities. I'm sure some slaves went "willingly," but come the fuck on, let's question the use of the world willingly there. And I hate to play the Jew card, but...no really, I hate to play it! It just doesn't get you what it used to, ya know?

Why question the word? There are accounts throughout history of slaves staying on with their owner's post-manumission. Heck, "Stockholm Syndrome" happens, and from relationships far less established than owner-slave relationships in those times.

Ha, I see you Jew Card and raise you.... Hmmm, the Asian card isn't worth much, especially when it's mixed... Umm, damn.

 

[Homburg]

Also, just 'cause it makes me twitch, I have to say - "Lez" is considered offensive by many lesbians, or at least immature.

The person he's quoting uses the handle, "subbielez".

 

[intothewoods]

Why question the word? There are accounts throughout history of slaves staying on with their owner's post-manumission. Heck, "Stockholm Syndrome" happens, and from relationships far less established than owner-slave relationships in those times.

Ha, I see you Jew Card and raise you.... Hmmm, the Asian card isn't worth much, especially when it's mixed... Umm, damn.

Yes, Stockholm Syndrome does happen. Do you think it happens to consensual slaves?

 

[Homburg]

Yes, Stockholm Syndrome does happen. Do you think it happens to consensual slaves?

Most assuredly. I'm the first to say that not all of the M/s relationships out there are entirely healthy.

 

[EmpressFi]

Most assuredly. I'm the first to say that not all of the M/s relationships out there are entirely healthy.

You, my dearest.. could never be chopped liver to me.

I think it still comes down with what you're comfortable with calling yourself. I'm constantly re-evaluating what each word means to me. Until I met women like V and Sinn, the only frame of reference I had for "slave" was someone who thought if she could only give over control of her PMS to her Master, she'd be a better slave. While I kept to the "your kink is not my kink" frame of mind around her, I was constantly either questioning if I were good enough or doing it right.. or thinking she was insane.

 

[Netzach]

Thank you for the laugh, Homburg. I needed that. I'm really under the weather. Sorry for being a big ol' soppy liberal, but I do think it's asinine to suggest there are similarities. I'm sure some slaves went "willingly," but come the fuck on, let's question the use of the world willingly there. And I hate to play the Jew card, but...no really, I hate to play it! It just doesn't get you what it used to, ya know?

The egyptians had assloads and assloads of slaves. I didn't even go there, but passover's not till spring.

 

[intothewoods]

Most assuredly. I'm the first to say that not all of the M/s relationships out there are entirely healthy.

Well, I agree with that. I don't live M/s as you pointed out, but I feel like I know unhealthy when I see it. And I guess that was my original point. If there is a comparison to be made, it's not a ringing endorsement of M/s relationships.

 

[Etoile]

The person he's quoting uses the handle, "subbielez".

I know, and that person already knows how I feel about the word. I was just providing a general educational service lest people start calling me a lez, because then I'd have to smack 'em. *shifty eyes*

 

[INSIDEYOURMIND]

.

Also, just 'cause it makes me twitch, I have to say - "Lez" is considered offensive by many lesbians, or at least immature.

It was said in jest, as used in her Lit ID, don't get your panties in a bunch, relax, breathe, breathe.................

 

[intothewoods]

The egyptians had assloads and assloads of slaves. I didn't even go there, but passover's not till spring.

I know it sounds ridiculous, but I had one of those gut - hey those are my people you're talking about! Not only, of course. We tell the story every year though, so I do feel a connection in a strange way. Also, the jewish renewal movement has this message that we as Jews should think about all people who are opressed. I just don't see anything beautiful about slavery that is not freely given.