Subs and Emotional Age - Sincere Discussion for UCE

[~Dream~]

Stress and mood swings..

Just what do people think of the emotional maturity of subs? it would be interesting to see if people notice/experienced some things that subs have in common. Such as: are they strong, intelligent, indecisive, needy? If you are a sub, how do you perceive yourself? If you are a Dom/me, what qualties do you look for?

And, just to make things a little more interesting, what about Dom/mes? Are the commonalities? What might they be? Are most of the Dom/mes one meets loud, demanding, silent, strong, caring, or distant?

Bottom line: have people noticed a difference in the emotional age of a sub or a Dom/me? Is so, what? If not, why?

Hopefully, we can get some discussion going and find out for ourselves if there are differences, similarities, stereotypes, or individuals. [/B]

______________________________

Sometimes I can act alot younger than I really truly am,if it suits the 'mood' I'm in .. Being bi-polar can bring many mood swings indeed..I would think that a person would need to spend a least a little "time" with their sub before just deciding if they were "emotionally mature' or not so they could get a "feel for the many factors that could possibly be causing the sub 'to be acting that certain way at that time ,trying to "understand and NOT pre-judge or assume things is paramount to me.

I feel None of us really have the right to judge each other ,however we DO have the right to DECIDE or CHOOSE who is BEST for us..I feel it was indeed my *sincerity* to learn,the lifestyle that captured Master Artful's attention..I still have alot of personal issues that can cause "attitude" changes in me and make me at times "difficult' to deal with however fortunately for me ,my Master is a Very patient and loving man.

I Do consider myself a strong ,intelligent woman and I am always open to learning something new. and as far as the challenging partthat Master talks about ,well hmm ,I 'm NOT HONESTLY trying to be a challenge however I DO speak my mind quite alot and try to keep things exciting for us!!

 

[NemoAlia]

"Trust, honesty, and open-mindedness" (I hope I'm quoting Richard correctly) seem like good indicators of emotional health. However, I don't think that they are successful distinctions between the emotionally mature and the emotionally immature, since some of the most trusting, honest, and open-minded people I know are under the age of 12.

As for a sense of responsibility, I will admit that it is harder to find. However, I do not believe that adults are any more likely to have it than children. I know many children (most, in my acquaintance) who are perfectly willing to admit to everything they've done, given the right environment. I believe that one's environment affects not only children's sense of responsibility, but adults' also. (This is not necessarily something that I can prove -- just my opinion.)

That being said, perhaps UCE has a point: submissives might very well have an average emotional age of approximately 10. However, if they do, I believe that so does everyone else. It seems to me that if there are no clear distinctions between most emotionally healthy 10-year-olds and most emotionally healthy 40-year-olds, it is fair to say that we all share a common level of emotional im/maturity.

I will, however, retract this conclusion if and when I figure out what distinctions can reliably be made between emotional immaturity and emotional maturity.

In the meantime, I'll stick with: "Wait -- you're both right!"

 

[Pure]

checking for time out

 

[SexyChele]

I have thought about NemoAlia's question most of the evening, and I must admit it was a good food for thought question.

I agree with what has been posted here so far: responsibility, honesty, openness. I would also add integrity, and a certain level of critical thinking. Now, I'm not necessarily talking about formal education critical thinking, no. Not everyone has had the opportunity to be exposed to that. But the ability to grasp a complex emotional problem or issue, contemplate it, reason it, perhaps argue it, and come to a decision regarding it. Most children can engage in critical thinking as well, yes, though most do not know what that means. But I'm talking about the complexity of the problem or issue at hand.

For instance, a single mom must consider a number of complex emotional issues every single day regarding her children. I do believe that most can handle this well. Unfortunately, I've seen more than a couple that were incapable of dealing with even the most simple of problems.

I would have to say that, on average, most children have all the qualities to develop into emotionally mature adults. I would also say that a fair number of children exhibit these attributes every day in their activities. But I think it comes down to the complexity of the issues one is faced with and how they deal with it.

A child's decisions vary greatly from those of an adult. And there are a lot of children who must have their days planned for them, ie. their parents dictate when they get up, they are expected to go to school, do homework, have chores, go to bed at a certain time. Their lives are structured based on some one else's (parent's) guidelines. An adult, on the other hand, does not have that. They know they must go to work because the consequences of not doing so means no paycheck, no mortgage payment, no home, no food, etc. They could simply decide not to go to work at all. (I've known a few who have done this!) And they suffer the consequences. I've even known a few adults who have truly thought they could miss a week of work without calling in and then wonder why they were fired. This is emotional immaturity.

So, I would have to say emotional maturity, in part, is the ability to reason through complex problems or issues and deal with them in such a way to bring about the conclusion that one wants or needs. The key word here separating children from adults would be complex, IMO.

 

[Pure]

People might be interested in the concept of "emotional intelligence" proposed by Mayer and Salovey, and discussed at the website below. The pop book of that title by Goleman is far less precise, and grandiose in its claims.

http://eqi.org/history.htm

Steve Hein wrote as follows:

Here I will discuss only the definition of emotional intelligence as proposed by Mayer, Salovey and their recent colleague David Caruso. (Referred to below as MSC.)

MSC suggest that EI is a true form of intelligence which has not been scientifically measured until they began their research work. One definition they propose is "the ability to process emotional information, particularly as it involves the perception, assimilation, understanding, and management of emotion." (Mayer and Cobb, 2000)

Elsewhere they go into more detail, explaining that it consists of these "four branches of mental ability":


1. Emotional identification, perception and expression

2. Emotional facilitation of thought

3. Emotional understanding

4. Emotional management



In one publication they describe these areas as follows:

The first, Emotional Perception, involves such abilities as identifying emotions in faces, music, and stories.
The second, Emotional Facilitation of Thought, involves such abilities as relating emotions to other mental sensations such as taste and color (relations that might be employed in artwork), and using emotion in reasoning and problem solving. (Also: "integrating emotions in thought," Mayer and Cobb)
The third area, Emotional Understanding involves solving emotional problems such as knowing which emotions are similar, or opposites, and what relations they convey.
The fourth area, Emotional Management involves understanding the implications of social acts on emotions and the regulation of emotion in self and others.

(see reference in Selecting a Measure of Emotional Intelligence: The Case for Ability Scales, 2000)

 

[~Dream~]

children are more

in to "instant gratification'also as where more em0tionally mature people can "wait"

as far as the structure you mentioned for some children that is true ,set bedtimes,chores,rules(that are sometimes NOt enforceable) where or where not one can go ...but I try as a single Mom to have as FEW strict Rules as possible ,allowing my children to experience the natural consequences for their unwise choices... I do have to admit that my 10-yr old is alot more emotionally MATURE than alot of 40 +up that I know lol

 

[artful]

Emotion VS Logic

EMOTION:

a : the affective aspect of consciousness : FEELING b : a state of feeling c :
a psychic and physical reaction (as anger or fear) subjectively experienced as
strong feeling and physiologically involving changes that prepare the body for
immediate vigorous action

LOGIC:

a (1) : a science that deals with the principles and criteria of validity of
inference and demonstration : the science of the formal principles of reasoning
(2) : a branch or variety of logic <modal logic> <Boolean logic> (3) : a
branch of semiotic; especially : SYNTACTICS (4) : the formal principles of a
branch of knowledge b (1) : a particular mode of reasoning viewed as valid
or faulty (2) : RELEVANCE, PROPRIETY c : interrelation or sequence of facts
or events when seen as inevitable or predictable d : the arrangement of circuit
elements (as in a computer) needed for computation; also : the circuits
themselves

These are of course, dictionary definitions, but I think we need a common ground to discuss emotional age maturity, versus emotional age immaturity. How does one perceive emotional age? How does one rate it? How does one perceive logic? How does one rate it? Any comments?

 

[~Dream~]

my emotions will ALWAYS rule

with me .. even after coming to a "logical ' conclusion about something,its only after alot of EMOTION has GONE INTO IT ALSO and NOT just thinking..like the song says .. this aint no thinking thing ,right brain ,left brain ,it goes a little DEEPER than that ,its a chemical ,physical ,emotion(not everything is always only black or white ..

 

[cellis]

Pure thank you for bringing this information to the discussion. It seems that I had seen something similiar in some research I had been doing.

However the link you provided does not work.

 

[Pure]

Steve Hein's website

http://www.eqi.org

seems to be busy today, but it worked last night.

Here are some related ones (again the more serious, not just Goleman)

http://trochim.human.cornell.edu/gallery/young/emotion.htm

Mayer article, 1999
http://www.apa.org/monitor/sep99/sp.html

Mayer interview
http://www.nhpr.org/content/fullmonty_view.php/2368/

Emotional Intelligence home page

http://www.emotionaliq.com/

 

[cellis]

Thanks Pure... It might take me a little while to wade through everything!

 

[MsWorthy]

Here's what I want to know: what are good indicators of emotional maturity?

This is an excellent question, Nemo, thank you.

In my opinion, emotional maturity is about self-control and management of emotion.

self-control = impulse control (controlling your behavior)
self-control is aided by management of emotion (control of what you believe about how you feel, ie., what you tell yourself it means when you feel something. For example, "I don't feel loved, therefore I am not loved." OR "I don't feel loved, but this is just how I feel at this moment, it doesn't mean that I am not loved.")


In order to control your behavior and manage your emotions (become emotionally mature), it is necessary to:

Recognize your personal emotional triggers (hotspots)

Recognize the transient nature of emotion (because I feel this way right now, I will feel this way forever = immaturity. This feeling will go away, often within a few minutes, especially if you are reacting to perceived negative, external triggers.)

Recognize that your feelings are not proof of another's motives. Just because you feel something (hurt, anger, humiliation, attack), it does not necessarily mean this was that person's goal.

Recognize that emotion is, more often than not, the result of what you tell yourself, not what someone else tells you. (If your feelings are hurt because your partner said no, you are, more than likely, upset because you have told yourself that your partner said no because she/he doesn't care about you, rather than believing that she/he said no because it was a good decision and has nothing to do with how valued you are.)

Recognize/clarify what your goals/motives are and stay on task regardless of how you feel at any given moment, leaving strong swings of emotion out of your decisions.

Recoginize that not everything is about you, everyone has an agenda/goal/motive. You must move beyond the child's worldview (I am the center of the universe).

Remember that self-control/emotional maturity is less about what you feel, and more about what you do/how you react to what you feel. Learning to manage your emotions will certainly help you to stay in control and will bring emotional maturity quicker, but it is not necessary to change what you tell yourself in order to change your behavior. You can begin the process with action.

On occassion, most people feel like throwing temper tantrums (when personal triggers are at hand), but, in my opinion, someone who is emotionally mature will assess the situation, assess the future damage a temper tantrum may cause, and decide, based on her/his goal/motive, what will bring about the desired results, then acts on that decision.

Therefore, it is my opinion that emotional maturity is realized when we recognize that our feelings are not necessarily indicators of reality. Emotional maturity is demonstrated through self-control.

~I hope that made sense. This is the first time I have tried to put my thoughts/beliefs about emotional maturity into words. Now, I must spend the next several hours determining if emotional maturity is the same as/directly related to maturity in general. LOL~

 

[evesdream]

wow

great summary, msworthy. more please

 

[~Dream~]

I may not have agreed with all that

MsWorthy ,but it was well presented none the less and very interesting reading ,thank-you ..I am willing to admit that I may not be "agreeing cause I an having an emotional crisis of my own right now tho ,so ty just the same

 

[Ghost's amaris]

This is an excellent question, Nemo, thank you.

In my opinion, emotional maturity is about self-control and management of emotion.

self-control = impulse control (controlling your behavior)
self-control is aided by management of emotion (control of what you believe about how you feel, ie., what you tell yourself it means when you feel something. For example, "I don't feel loved, therefore I am not loved." OR "I don't feel loved, but this is just how I feel at this moment, it doesn't mean that I am not loved.")


In order to control your behavior and manage your emotions (become emotionally mature), it is necessary to:

Recognize your personal emotional triggers (hotspots)

Recognize the transient nature of emotion (because I feel this way right now, I will feel this way forever = immaturity. This feeling will go away, often within a few minutes, especially if you are reacting to perceived negative, external triggers.)

Recognize that your feelings are not proof of another's motives. Just because you feel something (hurt, anger, humiliation, attack), it does not necessarily mean this was that person's goal.

Recognize that emotion is, more often than not, the result of what you tell yourself, not what someone else tells you. (If your feelings are hurt because your partner said no, you are, more than likely, upset because you have told yourself that your partner said no because she/he doesn't care about you, rather than believing that she/he said no because it was a good decision and has nothing to do with how valued you are.)

Recognize/clarify what your goals/motives are and stay on task regardless of how you feel at any given moment, leaving strong swings of emotion out of your decisions.

Recoginize that not everything is about you, everyone has an agenda/goal/motive. You must move beyond the child's worldview (I am the center of the universe).

Remember that self-control/emotional maturity is less about what you feel, and more about what you do/how you react to what you feel. Learning to manage your emotions will certainly help you to stay in control and will bring emotional maturity quicker, but it is not necessary to change what you tell yourself in order to change your behavior. You can begin the process with action.

On occassion, most people feel like throwing temper tantrums (when personal triggers are at hand), but, in my opinion, someone who is emotionally mature will assess the situation, assess the future damage a temper tantrum may cause, and decide, based on her/his goal/motive, what will bring about the desired results, then acts on that decision.

Therefore, it is my opinion that emotional maturity is realized when we recognize that our feelings are not necessarily indicators of reality. Emotional maturity is demonstrated through self-control.

~I hope that made sense. This is the first time I have tried to put my thoughts/beliefs about emotional maturity into words. Now, I must spend the next several hours determining if emotional maturity is the same as/directly related to maturity in general. LOL~

MsWorthy I must completely agree with what you have posted.

There is alot to becoming emotionally mature and I really think you have hit the nail on the head for how to become emotionally mature.

I will admit I had a major problem with emotional maturity and sometimes all the progress i have made will slip and fall back but I realize what has happened and get back on track again.

It is not an easy take it takes alot of soul searching and admitting things to yourself that you would rather not but it is neccessary.

Ghost's amaris

 

[NemoAlia]

It seems like many of us agree with the authors of the articles that Pure linked us to: it is the ability to contextualize emotional experiences that distinguishes the emotionally mature from the emotionally immature.

Well, yes. That makes sense to me; therefore, I will modify my original conclusion that all humans share a average emotional age. (It's okay, I was never very attached to it anyway. I mostly said it to play Devil's Advocate.)

My question now becomes: how does one acquire this ability?

(A subsidiary question: Where do situations like "I just need a hug!" fall into place? I mean, it's a desire for instant gratification; it's a temporary solution at best -- does it threaten one's emotional maturity? Or is it okay to have emotionally immature moments as long as you're able to contextualize them within the broader realm of emotional experience?)

 

[artful]

Nemo

My question now becomes: how does one acquire this ability? I am in my copy and paste mode with MsWorthy on this thread,...I will wait for her response. (yes-that WAS a cop out,...but truly,...I don't have an answer for THAT.)

(A subsidiary question: Where do situations like "I just need a hug!" fall into place? I mean, it's a desire for instant gratification; it's a temporary solution at best -- does it threaten one's emotional maturity? Or is it okay to have emotionally immature moments as long as you're able to contextualize them within the broader realm of emotional experience?)

I think we all have those moments where we NEED a hug. A problem that seems to rear it's ugly head from time to time,...is when someone *demands* you show your affection in a PARTICULAR way,...or at a PARTICULAR time, in a FREQUENT manner. Much as when one may *demand* respect from someone else. In THOSE instances,...I don't think it is healthy for THAT person's emotional *demand* to be met. All too often, it is merely a TOOL, used to manipulate others.

 

[NemoAlia]

While I was typing that last post, Artful's dream was typing a post for the Disappointments thread that gives a good example of a situation in which 'instant gratification' and 'uncontrolled emotions' would be healthy even for the most emotionally mature person:

I think its just GREAT fine and dandy for you that you can control your emotions but ya know what without the very REAL adrenaline rush that comes from "uncontrolled' emotions such as when
someone you love is in *DANGER* and you rush out to save them ,those are a very GOOD thing indeed(just a thought)

Do you think that sexual submission falls into this category of conscious (therefore, emotionally mature) subsumption of emotional maturity?

Edited 'cause I'm not nearly the speller I once was.

 

[NemoAlia]

If D/s weren't a conscious, emotionally mature, abandonment of emotional maturity (as defined by many of us here), would we still be able to call a Dom/me's demanding ritual displays of affection mature? According to Artful's post, it seems like this would be difficult to support.

 

[artful]

Nemo

While I was typing that last past, Artful's dream was typing a post for the Disappointments thread that gives a good example of a situation in which 'instant gratification' and 'uncontrolled emotions' would be healthy even for the most emotionally mature person:

<snip>

I disagree with that ASSUMPTION. Many times, people are FROZEN by their FEAR, (an emotion), and unable to even move,...whether it be to save the life of a loved one,...or even that of themself.

Sometimes,...rushing out to save a loved one, simply causes TWO deaths instead of one. THAT is a fact,...it happens often.

Do I suggest one to sit and ponder, wasting VALUABLE time in this manner? Of course not, but uncontrolled emotions are JUST that,... *UNCONTROLLED*.

There are times when they are indeed useful, but rare is the occasion, when they will benefit anyone.

(JMHO),...but it's mine,...and I own it.

 

[artful]

Nemo

If D/s weren't a conscious, emotionally mature, abandonment of emotional maturity (as defined by many of us here), would we still be able to call a Dom/me's demanding ritual displays of affection mature? According to Artful's post, it seems like this would be difficult to support.

A ritual may or may NOT be a display of affection. Often it is merely a training excercise.

An EXAMPLE:

I have requested Dream to curl up at my left foot,...her doing that is a submissive act,...not an act of affection.

 

[NemoAlia]

...mutter mutter...

*%^#@ Stoics!

Would a submissive submit if s/he didn't feel affection? Are the two separable?

 

[zipman]

<snip>
My question now becomes: how does one acquire this ability?

(A subsidiary question: Where do situations like "I just need a hug!" fall into place? I mean, it's a desire for instant gratification; it's a temporary solution at best -- does it threaten one's emotional maturity? Or is it okay to have emotionally immature moments as long as you're able to contextualize them within the broader realm of emotional experience?)

I think the ability can be learned through reading and understanding about emotions AND through introspection. Really looking at yourself, at your motivations and why you feel the things you do. Looking at your emotional reactions from an objective standpoint and tyring to see patterns of behavior. Introspection can be painful (as Eb said on another thread) but they can yield true insight into a person's motivations and emotions.

I think that asking for a hug is not the issue. I think the issue is what would happen if you asked and did not get one. This is where emotional maturity and instant gratification come into play. If you react maturely, then asking for it is fine. If you throw a temper tantrum because you did not get it, then the need for instant gratification is immature and too emotional.

 

[artful]

Nemo

If D/s weren't a conscious, emotionally mature, abandonment of emotional maturity (as defined by many of us here),<snip> According to Artful's post, it seems like this would be difficult to support.

<snip>

I don't agree that submissives necessarily abandon their "emotional maturity", to participate in a healthy D/s relationship. On the contrary,...I think it REQUIRES "emotional maturity" to gain the MOST from such a relationship.

 

[artful]

Nemo

...mutter mutter...

*%^#@ Stoics!

Would a submissive submit if s/he didn't feel affection? Are the two separable?

Yes,...indeed they ARE separable !