Subs and Emotional Age - Sincere Discussion for UCE

[~Dream~]

Re:Master

<snip>

I disagree with that ASSUMPTION. Many times, people are FROZEN by their FEAR, (an emotion), and unable to even move,...whether it be to save the life of a loved one,...or even that of themself.

Sometimes,...rushing out to save a loved one, simply causes TWO deaths instead of one. THAT is a fact,...it happens often.

Do I suggest one to sit and ponder, wasting VALUABLE time in this manner? Of course not, but uncontrolled emotions are JUST that,... *UNCONTROLLED*.

There are times when they are indeed useful, but rare is the occasion, when they will benefit anyone.

(JMHO),...but it's mine,...and I own it.

_____________________________

I choose to Disagree with YOUR example also and stick to my original post as my SON was saved by such an act of 'UNCONTROLLED EMOTION " and so was my best friend .. point made

 

[artful]

Re: Re:Master

_____________________________

I choose to Disagree with YOUR example also and stick to my original post as my SON was saved by such an act of 'UNCONTROLLED EMOTION " and so was my best friend .. point made

You have a differing opinion,...and that is ok,...I however do not accept your "Point Made". My opinion still stands as I stated it.

 

[SexyChele]

MsWorthy, thank you so much for your contribution! It certainly sums up how many here think, and I appreciate your time and effort in sharing it here.

Pure - thank you for the links. It seems you have given us some great reading material, and I look forward to investigating further.

NemoAlia, once again you prove that those who seem the most quiet are indeed the deepest thinkers! I don't know how much justice I can do your questions, but I'm sure other, brighter minds will jump in!

First -

(A subsidiary question: Where do situations like "I just need a hug!" fall into place? I mean, it's a desire for instant gratification; it's a temporary solution at best -- does it threaten one's emotional maturity? Or is it okay to have emotionally immature moments as long as you're able to contextualize them within the broader realm of emotional experience?)

I think even the most emotionally mature or those firmly in control of their emotions at times need the validation and human contact a hug can give. Yes, it is instant gratification, but I don't think it jeopardizes one's emotional maturity. Now, if some one were suffering from depression that has not been treated, there might be some concern. I mean, if you meet up with a friend who always needs a hug to give them security and there are other factors present such as depression, then that person might need to seek counseling. They may be emotionally immature at that period in their life. However, if they seek help or overcome the depression (or other problem, insert what you wish), then they can return to emotionally maturity.

I think everyone has emotionally immature moments throughout their lives. It depends on what is happening and how they react to it. Many grownups get on roller coasters and feel the same rush as they did when they were kids. Sometimes it's fun getting together with a couple of girlfriends and acting silly and giggly and goofy. But then you go back to reality and pick up where you left off.

If D/s weren't a conscious, emotionally mature, abandonment of emotional maturity (as defined by many of us here), would we still be able to call a Dom/me's demanding ritual displays of affection mature? According to Artful's post, it seems like this would be difficult to support.

Yes, I would think so. Because the rituals that are developed are usually discussed beforehand and agreed upon. They normally fill some need both have. It might seem to some that for a sub to perform some of these rituals means that they are emotionally immature, but I see no difference than a 'nilla wife getting up a few minutes earlier to make certain the coffee is ready. It's an outward display of affection and acceptance. (Understand, please, that affection here might not mean the romantic, heart to heart stuff, but more along the lines of admiration.)

As far as Dream's post goes, I think when a loved one is in danger, one simply reacts. Hopefully, there is some thinking involved, but typically people react to the situation at hand. A child tottering at the edge of a swimming pool, a person clutching their chest and falling down, a knife slipping and cutting deeply. I think in these situations a person just "does". I don't believe very many people really stop and think about what they are going to do, they just do it.

As for the question of how one aquires emotional maturity, that I shall have to think some on!

 

[SexyChele]

Would a submissive submit if s/he didn't feel affection? Are the two separable?

I think it depends on the relationship dynamics and the personalities of those involved. There are subs who can submit without feeling any affection for their Dom. They are simply into the play aspect.

I think you must also distinguish between affection and regard or admiration. I believe there are subs out there who feel no affection towards their Dom/me, yet they hold him/her in high regard or have a great deal of admiration for them.

Personally, for me to be truly submissive, I need that feeling of affection. I can be submissive up to a certain point with a Dom I have no affection for, but it outside the scope of anything sexual. For instance, if I am communication with a Dom via email or phone or in person, and we have yet to determine if there is a bond, I will take the submissive role and accord them respect. However, to move to a level of play or true submission to just him, there must be affection towards him involved.

 

[~Dream~]

Re: Re: Re:Master

You have a differing opinion,...and that is ok,...I however do not accept your "Point Made". My opinion still stands as I stated it.

____________
Yes it IS ok thanks for the affirmation baby, however the point THAT i did indeed MAKE was that 'uncontrolled emotion" saved my son's life,plain and simple ,I dint have to STOP and *Think* about it First, not at all

 

[lark sparrow]

If D/s weren't a conscious, emotionally mature, abandonment of emotional maturity (as defined by many of us here), would we still be able to call a Dom/me's demanding ritual displays of affection mature? According to Artful's post, it seems like this would be difficult to support.

I believe this question may play into my original curiousity regarding this thread, Nemo.

Earlier I had brought up punishments (standing in corners, or "time outs", spankings and other things likened to childhood - delegated from Dom/me to sub), which was grouped under "age play". I don't participate in age play, but my Domme knows being treated as a child occasionally for slight misbehaviors is very humbling to me, as I am a woman in my 30's, nor do I like or desire to pretend I am child. Granted we both enjoy some humilation play, and most of the ways She controls me are something I find erotic, even if humbling, but not age play in and of itself, as a roleplay. But this was a bad example as it could be likened to play. Also even though I am not attracted to age play personally, I seriously doubt that the majority of those who do indulge in this form of play, are emotionally stunted adults in their daily lives. I don't pretend to really understand it, but I look at it as a kink or fetish.

I also brought up disciplines. Which would include things like rituals set by Dom/me to sub, as well things like set bedtimes for a submissive, asking permission on things most adults would not ask their partner, the Dom/me having the final word/decision on what they choose, within their submissive's life, etc. This is about control, but I also see some correlation to being "treated as a child", or as something other than an adult, as might be defined in non-D/s relationships. Well, as a submissive!

A child has no control over being treated as a child, as an adult we certainly do - we make our own choices, even if that choice is a power exchange. Having a power exchange within a relationship does not mean you cannot take care of yourself and others, or that you are by default, somehow deficient of emotional maturiuty in general - on the contrary, I think it takes an incredible amount of self-control at times to actually submit to another. It's a bit of a paradox.

If this is completely off track to the thread I apologize, and will not bring it up again. But I am very curious if anyone else sees this correlation within a D/s relationship re: subs and emotional age? I know everyone's relationship will not include control in all ways mentioned, but it exists. Is it somewhat taboo within the D/s community to discuss, as we seek to be recognized as the consenting, emotionally healthy adults most of us are (and in fact, have to be, to make the relationship thrive)?

 

[~Dream~]

I will expand on this further ..

but suffice it to say for now that I have one and only ONE father and I WILL NOT be treatedas a child or something is VERY wrong with the PERSON who would CHOOSE to DEMEAN me in such a manner .. JMHO

 

[lark sparrow]

Re: I will expand on this further ..

but suffice it to say for now that I have one and only ONE father and I WILL NOT be treatedas a child or something is VERY wrong with the PERSON who would CHOOSE to DEMEAN me in such a manner .. JMHO

Smiles. Good for you, dream! I think you may be misunderstanding my post, if it was a reply to it. I have *two* sets of parents due to divorce and happy new marriages, but as I am an adult their parental role in my life is limited, and rich friendships have expanded their roles.

Obviously I don't know anything about your background, and would never condone anything that felt like abuse or demeaning treatment for anyone.

My point is simply that different rules and structures apply within D/s relationships, usually. And that at least in my mind, I found it interesting to mull over the topic of "emotional age" in an active submissive in regards to their Dominant, and the boundaries and discipline that Dominants may choose to exercise within their submissives lives - the ones that the submissive consents to, and fulfills a need for them both. whew!

 

[SexyChele]

I believe this question may play into my original curiousity regarding this thread, Nemo.

Earlier I had brought up punishments (standing in corners, or "time outs", spankings and other things likened to childhood - delegated from Dom/me to sub), which was grouped under "age play". I don't participate in age play, but my Domme knows being treated as a child occasionally for slight misbehaviors is very humbling to me, as I am a woman in my 30's, nor do I like or desire to pretend I am child. Granted we both enjoy some humilation play, and most of the ways She controls me are something I find erotic, even if humbling, but not age play in and of itself, as a roleplay. But this was a bad example as it could be likened to play. Also even though I am not attracted to age play personally, I seriously doubt that the majority of those who do indulge in this form of play, are emotionally stunted adults in their daily lives. I don't pretend to really understand it, but I look at it as a kink or fetish.

I also brought up disciplines. Which would include things like rituals set by Dom/me to sub, as well things like set bedtimes for a submissive, asking permission on things most adults would not ask their partner, the Dom/me having the final word/decision on what they choose, within their submissive's life, etc. This is about control, but I also see some correlation to being "treated as a child", or as something other than an adult, as might be defined in non-D/s relationships. Well, as a submissive!

A child has no control over being treated as a child, as an adult we certainly do - we make our own choices, even if that choice is a power exchange. Having a power exchange within a relationship does not mean you cannot take care of yourself and others, or that you are by default, somehow deficient of emotional maturiuty in general - on the contrary, I think it takes an incredible amount of self-control at times to actually submit to another. It's a bit of a paradox.

If this is completely off track to the thread I apologize, and will not bring it up again. But I am very curious if anyone else sees this correlation within a D/s relationship re: subs and emotional age? I know everyone's relationship will not include control in all ways mentioned, but it exists. Is it somewhat taboo within the D/s community to discuss, as we seek to be recognized as the consenting, emotionally healthy adults most of us are (and in fact, have to be, to make the relationship thrive)?

Hello again. lark sparrow! And, no, you are not completely off track to the thread topic - not in the least. And, as honesty plays a major role in BDSM, I would think the ideas you bring to the table are worthy of discussion. I wish I had more experience under my belt to truly do a discussion justice, but I can try to give my input in the hopes that a more experienced sub or Dom/me will jump in.

Ageplay is quite different from a Dom/me choosing to use what seems "childlike" forms of punishment or discipline with thier subs. Ageplay is a fetish. Some engage in it only as a roleplay scenario (such I have a time or two), and for others it is what their indvidual "kink" is. Although I've not met anyone who truly has this fetish, I would presume they would be like most other fetishists - you wouldn't be able to pick them out in a crowd.

Many, many Dom/mes incorporate childlike forms of punishment or discipline with their subs. And it is mainly to bring about a feeling of humbleness and/or humiliation - depending on the type of action and how it is administered. Being made to stand in a corner is certainly something we do with children. But a Dom/me might incorporate this to get a sub who is out of control to stop, take a breather, and do some thinking. Just an example, here.

The point it, and you made in the third paragraph, is choice. Typically, Dom/mes discuss with their subs what the limits are and how far the sub feels they can go. Subs who may have suffered abuse at the hands of their parents, might not do well in these situations. Other subs may not particularly care for this form of discipline. And still others will have the desired affect. It sounds as though your Domme has figured out what works for both of you, and that is a wonderful thing.

It takes a lot of self-control to be a submissive, let alone being submissive in a TPE. I think some people, mainly outside of the BDSM lifestyle, have this image that the Dom/me is totally in control and displays no emotion whatsoever, while a submissive has no control and can be overly emotional.

I can't speak for Dom/mes, but most of the submissives that I've talked to, exhibit a tremendous amount of self-control. Oh, certainly when they are alone with their Dom/mes, they will open up, vent, get angry, etc. But there is a time for that. Most submissives understand the dynamics of their relationship and strive to make it work. And this involves self-control! It's sometimes biting your tongue and looking at a situation before speaking out. It's learning to try to see the full scope of things, instead of how things only relate to one individual.

Some have this control, others must learn it. But, for any D/s relationship to succeed, it must be there.

And now, I hope some one with much more experience can step up to the plate!

 

[SexyChele]

Re: I will expand on this further ..

but suffice it to say for now that I have one and only ONE father and I WILL NOT be treatedas a child or something is VERY wrong with the PERSON who would CHOOSE to DEMEAN me in such a manner .. JMHO

Dream, this is your opinion and it is valid and important.

Ageplay, or infantialism, is a fetish. I don't know that there is any "understanding" a fetish - it just "is". I know the first time I roleplayed a young girl, I felt awkward and uncomfortable - the panties, the anklets, the "maryjanes", hair in pig-tales - but it made my Dom happy. And, ultimately, it was he who I was trying to make happy and satisfy. To his credit, he did pick up on my uncomfortableness (is that word?), the second time we did it, and we had a heart to heart. After that, he never asked me to do it again.

There are many men who have fantasies that involve young girls. It's not that they actually want a young girl, they are more interested in the control aspect. A young girl would not have the maturity of a woman, so she would be malleable, controllable, innocent, and open to anything. Those are the draws - which, typically is also behind a lot of incent fantasies. You might keep in mind that ageplay isn't necessarily about a girl playing with her "father". I drew the line there, even in roleplay. It was the much older man with a younger girl. Still made me uncomfortable, but others get a lot out of it.

In the case of infantilism, the "infant" will act like a baby - diapers, bottles, the whole thing. It is a fetish - and satisfies both, hopefully, who are engaged in it.

Dream, you are entitled to your opinion, of course. But there is nothing wrong with some one who engages in a fetish between consenting adults. It's just another "kink" out there.

 

[zipman]

<snip>
And now, I hope some one with much more experience can step up to the plate!

I'm not sure I have more experience, but I would be happy to provide my opinions on things.

Unfortunately, I seem to be having trouble understanding which question you want another opinion on.

 

[MasterKensbeany]

Zipman's opinion

I'm not sure I have more experience, but I would be happy to provide my opinions on things.

Unfortunately, I seem to be having trouble understanding which question you want another opinion on.

Perhaps something about submissives and self control Sir?? I know I'd like to hear your opinions.

Respectfully
beany

 

[SexyChele]

Re: Zipman's opinion

Perhaps something about submissives and self control Sir?? I know I'd like to hear your opinions.

Respectfully
beany

Yup, that would be it! Lark sparrow can clarify if I've misunderstood!

 

[zipman]

Re: Zipman's opinion

Perhaps something about submissives and self control Sir?? I know I'd like to hear your opinions.

Respectfully
beany

I think that self-control is one of the defining factors regarding the emotional maturity of a sub.

If a sub is emotionally immature, then she would most likely respond as a child would to a command. Children, when told to do something, usually react emotionally and don't want to do what they are told. They may pout, they may disobey or they may throw a temper tantrum. This is the exact opposite of what a Dom/me would expect a sub to do.

When a child does what they are told, they are usually praised for being "mature." The child is demonstrating a high level of self-control over their emotions. They are accepting that they should do as they are told by the authority figure. Therefore, a sub who accepts her Masters commands is in fact displaying a high degree of emotional maturity.

These are my preliminary thoughts on the subject. I hope they help.

 

[lark sparrow]

Re: Re: Zipman's opinion

I think that self-control is one of the defining factors regarding the emotional maturity of a sub.

If a sub is emotionally immature, then she would most likely respond as a child would to a command. Children, when told to do something, usually react emotionally and don't want to do what they are told. They may pout, they may disobey or they may throw a temper tantrum. This is the exact opposite of what a Dom/me would expect a sub to do.

When a child does what they are told, they are usually praised for being "mature." The child is demonstrating a high level of self-control over their emotions. They are accepting that they should do as they are told by the authority figure. Therefore, a sub who accepts her Masters commands is in fact displaying a high degree of emotional maturity.

These are my preliminary thoughts on the subject. I hope they help.

Thoughtful addition, Zipman, and a great distinction between a submissive and a child.

I know there were times in the very beginning where I had to learn a "yes, Mistress", rather than immediately bringing up questions/concerns that seemed to negate the command or request. She does give room for "buts and howevers" but not as a first response! lol

(btw - love that sig line )

 

[MasterKensbeany]

Zipman said

"If a sub is emotionally immature, then she would most likely respond as a child would to a command. Children, when told to do something, usually react emotionally and don't want to do what they are told. They may pout, they may disobey or they may throw a temper tantrum. This is the exact opposite of what a Dom/me would expect a sub to do."

Well said Sir. I think much of it has to do with a difference in the level of perception. Children and emotionally stunted adults live only in the moment, they can't see beyond what they feel, think, want or need at that minute in time. An emotionally mature adult can look at the broader scene, identify possible consequences of their behavior and make decisions based on what they want those consequences to be. That doesn't mean that they don't act or voice their feelings at all (although it might) but rather, that they find a way to do so in a way appropriate to the situation.

I've heard it said that we shouldn't give up the open candor of children, that that kind of candor is indeed a virtue. To a point that may be true but, the other side of that coin is that children can be absolutely cruel. They don't mean to be, they just haven't learned how and when to control what they say and do.

Respectfully
beany

 

[artful]

MKB

You are now, OFFICIALLY on my copy and paste list.

 

[lark sparrow]

Hello again. lark sparrow! And, no, you are not completely off track to the thread topic - not in the least. And, as honesty plays a major role in BDSM, I would think the ideas you bring to the table are worthy of discussion. I wish I had more experience under my belt to truly do a discussion justice, but I can try to give my input in the hopes that a more experienced sub or Dom/me will jump in.

Chele, thanks for the input and summing it up... and getting others involved.

 

[cellis]

This an excellent discussion and I would like to add to just a couple of points...

Know one changes unless they really want to change and this is very difficult at best. It takes years sometimes to see results... again I am trying to stay on topic... I am talking about moving from an emotionally immature adult to an emotionally mature one.

I don't think you can classify all submissives as emotionally immature because of the role they play... because again I am talking about a broad spectrum... yes some submissives are emtionally mature and I have seen that acted out front of me from time to time right here.

I tend to think of those emtionally immature submissives as those who need immediate gratification, who have to have all the focus on them and who are apt to "act out" if this is not so. While the emotionally mature submissive is able to think rationally, delay gratification until the proper time and be more apt to rationally discuss any issues they may have.

The other thing was about whether submissives could submit to someone they did not feel some affection for... I know that there are those who play in public and submit just for the play but I have to personally wonder how fulfilling it is to submit without the heart being involved. For me it just would not be the same thing. I need the heart.

 

[~Dream~]

well i guess we all know where

Zipman said

"If a sub is emotionally immature, then she would most likely respond as a child would to a command. Children, when told to do something, usually react emotionally and don't want to do what they are told. They may pout, they may disobey or they may throw a temper tantrum. This is the exact opposite of what a Dom/me would expect a sub to do."

Well said Sir. I think much of it has to do with a difference in the level of perception. Children and emotionally stunted adults live only in the moment, they can't see beyond what they feel, think, want or need at that minute in time. An emotionally mature adult can look at the broader scene, identify possible consequences of their behavior and make decisions based on what they want those consequences to be. That doesn't mean that they don't act or voice their feelings at all (although it might) but rather, that they find a way to do so in a way appropriate to the situation.

I've heard it said that we shouldn't give up the open candor of children, that that kind of candor is indeed a virtue. To a point that may be true but, the other side of that coin is that children can be absolutely cruel. They don't mean to be, they just haven't learned how and when to control what they say and do.

Respectfully
beany

___________________
we all know where..
I come on that list by now then dont we?
Be well all ,please try hard to not fight and get along its really NOT worth all the fighting in the end you will be left alone bitter and cold..

 

[MasterKensbeany]

Artful said

"MKB
You are now, OFFICIALLY on my copy and paste list. "





Thank you Sir, I'm honored.

Respectfully
beany

 

[~Dream~]

MKB

Just consider yourself lucky that you're not o the top of His 'People who just got dumped" List *sigh*

 

[tassie]

for gods sake get over yourself woman.

go out into the real world, eat chocolate, cry on a real life friend. we've all been chucked before and you'll get over it.

just dont drag your kid into an online relationship in the future (or us, for that matter)

you're turning into artful's troll.

 

[Richard49]

Re: I will expand on this further ..

but suffice it to say for now that I have one and only ONE father and I WILL NOT be treatedas a child or something is VERY wrong with the PERSON who would CHOOSE to DEMEAN me in such a manner .. JMHO

What behavor would be interupted by you as someone treating you like they were your father?

 

[Richard49]

Re: Re: Zipman's opinion

I think that self-control is one of the defining factors regarding the emotional maturity of a sub.

If a sub is emotionally immature, then she would most likely respond as a child would to a command. Children, when told to do something, usually react emotionally and don't want to do what they are told. They may pout, they may disobey or they may throw a temper tantrum. This is the exact opposite of what a Dom/me would expect a sub to do.

When a child does what they are told, they are usually praised for being "mature." The child is demonstrating a high level of self-control over their emotions. They are accepting that they should do as they are told by the authority figure. Therefore, a sub who accepts her Masters commands is in fact displaying a high degree of emotional maturity.

These are my preliminary thoughts on the subject. I hope they help.

You may have just explained what my now ex was all about and why she used the lifestyle against me in the divorce