Teh Power Exchange: a release from responsibility and accountabilty?

[catalina_francisco]

I'm sorry you feel as you do about me too.

Liking you, thinking your posts sometimes say what I am thinking/feeling, sometimes not? Well I guess I can't do anything about that. Take care.

Catalina

 

[MissTaken]

I'll answer this one. The responsibility would be shared by both of us. Johnny would bear part of the responsibility for having given the initial order, however, once I actually carried it out, the REST of the responsibility would be mine alone.

He can't control the extent of my "going off" on the neighbor. *grin* I could be a super bitch (highly unlikely) and really give the neighbor what for, or I could sweetly ask the neighbor to keep an eye on their dog. Either way, He doesn't have much control over what I'm going to say, and isn't the type of Dom to micro-manage the very content of my conversations.

The responsiblity is shared.

~anelize

Thank you, anelize.





So, another question....

If I tell scooter to cut off his left thumb to show his undying adoration of me and he refuses, is he more or less submissive for not doing so?

In refusing, would he no longer be able to be considered my slave?

(Throwing this in for conversation....again, his is all I need, no matter what you call him)

 

[Shadowsdream]

Thank you, anelize.





So, another question....

If I tell scooter to cut off his left thumb to show his undying adoration of me and he refuses, is he more or less submissive for not doing so?

In refusing, would he no longer be able to be considered my slave?

(Throwing this in for conversation....again, his is all I need, no matter what you call him)

If you told scooter to cut off his left thumb to show his undying adoration of you he should rush you to the emergency room and have you commited to show his adoration for the you he knows you are!

he should be intelligent and well trained enough to know that you have become temporarily unbalanced or you would not make a request that lessens the value of the one you have chosen to guide.

In refusing he shows his self respect and mental ability to remain safe and sane. I would think his refusal should be valued as his ability to read something amiss in the moment. his refusal should also show you that he has common sense and should remain your submissive.

 

[Etoile]

If you told scooter to cut off his left thumb to show his undying adoration of you he should rush you to the emergency room and have you commited to show his adoration for the you he knows you are!

he should be intelligent and well trained enough to know that you have become temporarily unbalanced or you would not make a request that lessens the value of the one you have chosen to guide.

In refusing he shows his self respect and mental ability to remain safe and sane. I would think his refusal should be valued as his ability to read something amiss in the moment. his refusal should also show you that he has common sense and should remain your submissive.

Yes yes yes!

This is exactly what I was going for when I mentioned fleeing. I had been worried that some people might react negatively, saying that they would never flee their dominant, even if they did a cut-off-your-left-thumb stunt. But you have hit the nail on the head with why I would get out of such a situation. (Not to mention the fact that cutting off my left thumb would basically end my career, which I love!)

 

[MissTaken]

Thank you, Shadowsdream and Etoile.

I don't believe submission should be blind or unconditional anymore than I believe ANY Dominant is infallible or should be revered as such.

There are times when a submissive can serve their Dominant best by disobeying them or taking an intiative that digresses from what the Dominant's stated wants or needs are.

 

[catalina_francisco]

Re: Thank you, Shadowsdream and Etoile.

I am going to be very brave and do the unthinkable, disagree with Shadowsdream. I know I am taking a big risk here, but life is boring without a risk now and then. If a Dominant asks their slave to perform any act which falls within the agreement both of them have made, the slave has to comply and honour the request of their Dominant.

Would it be a fair comparison to ask if it is okay for the Dominant who has promised to never permanently give away or kill their submissive/slave, to then change their mind and decide to not honour their word?

The contract (written or orally) made between the Dominant and submissive is sacred and should always be honoured by both parties. The moment one of the parties decides that it is time to ignore the agreements made, the relationship becomes empty, eroded, and leaves the realm of BDSM.

Of course, asking a submissive to mutilate themselves is not a sign of greatness, in effect it would say a lot about the Dominant who would ask that of their property.

If a Dominant becomes temporary insane then it is another matter; however the cutting of a thumb is not even as outrageous as one might think. In Yakuza (Japanese mafia) gangs, fingers are removed in a ritual called yubitsume. The reasons for yubitsume are atonement for serious offences, punishment, or as a gesture of gratitude. Usually, the finger cutting for the first offence removes the top joint of the little finger, and the freshly chopped digit is wrapped in a cloth and ceremoniously handed to the offender's boss (oyabun). Further infractions might result in removal of the next joint of the finger. Formal expulsions from Yakuza membership might also include yubitsume as a final mark of punishment.

There are times when a submissive can serve their Dominant best by disobeying them or taking an intiative that digresses from what the Dominant's stated wants or needs are.

MissTaken in a TPE relationship it is an impossibility for a submissive to go against their Dominant, it is simply not for a submissive to decide what the better course to follow is. There is certainly room for voicing concerns, expressing fears, asking for clarification, but if TPE is the type relationship, as in Total Power Exchange, the final decision is still the Dominant’s to make and the submissive’s to obey. The moment the submissive ‘decides’ what is the better course to follow, the submissive becomes the Dominant, and IMHO is topping from the bottom.

The submissive should sacrifice, whenever necessary, their own comfort and pleasure to please and obey their Dominant. The submissive should strive to be pleasing in all they do. The submissive should always put the needs of their Dominant before their own. A submissive should be allowed to offer an opinion when asked. A submissive should be allowed to speak and ask questions unless bidden to be silent, and they should be allowed to respectfully correct their Dominant when the Dominant is mistaken. However a submissive is submissive and should not be allowed to overrule the Dominant just because they think the Dominant is making a mistake or because they think that they know better than the Dominant.

Francisco.

 

[Etoile]

Re: Re: Thank you, Shadowsdream and Etoile.

MissTaken in a TPE relationship it is an impossibility for a submissive to go against their Dominant, it is simply not for a submissive to decide what the better course to follow is. There is certainly room for voicing concerns, expressing fears, asking for clarification, but if TPE is the type relationship, as in Total Power Exchange, the final decision is still the Dominant’s to make and the submissive’s to obey. The moment the submissive ‘decides’ what is the better course to follow, the submissive becomes the Dominant, and IMHO is topping from the bottom.

I don't agree with your last comment, Francisco. I think "becoming the dominant" and "topping from the bottom" are more serious offenses than a reasonable questioning of judgment. Just because I won't let Daddy cut my fingers off, it's not TPE? I'm not submissive enough? This is getting into the realm of "more subby than thou" again, and I really hate those discussions. I suggest to you that MissT is right that questioning the dom's judgment is at times the correct action for a sub to take. Now, refusal to do something that is within reason is more definitely topping from the bottom. But I think the time I tried to escape from Daddy because e wanted to pierce my nipples with an unsterilized tapestry needle was pretty damn reasonable - I was not becoming the dominant by any means, I was being the partner with a knowledge of safety measures that Daddy hasn't considered. Doms aren't infalliable, and I agree with MissT that sometimes it's a sub's job to correct their mistakes in an appropriate manner.

 

[Shadowsdream]

Well of course if a submissive signs a contract that says they are in agreement of having bodily digits cut off and even more explicitly that they will stand obediently in one place without flinching while being shot between the eyes with a double barrel shot gun they should comply!

Common sense must at some juncture over come both Domination and submission for to devalue the property We profess to be so proud of seems a bit contradictory. Though O/our intent is generally to remain in the BDSM relationship for all of eternity (married or not) reality tells U/us that as many BDSM relationships fail as do vanillas. There is also the reality of unexpected death within the relationship. On either side.

O yes I know We feed the fantasy of possibilities, probablities and it makes U/us all hot and bothered. The implied danger of Our cruelty (which up to a point is reality)

My slave is tattooed with My ownership and under a lifetime contract...I would kick his ass to the curb without a backward glance if he disobeyed in a way that held a significant importance to Me or dishonored Me and I would hope he has the balls to do the same if I were to give an order that would make him less valuable in the eyes of a future Dominant or lessened his work abilities. (digits being vital to his career) Even though I see no end in sight to this D/s 24/7 relationship that holds so much value and passion to U/us both.

 

[MissTaken]

In theory, I agree that a submissive who is engaging in a TPE must always follow the directives of the Dominant.

However, people are fluid. Persons are fragile and circumstances can change an individual. As such, the submissive has an equal responsibility to be aware of their Dominants needs and potential errs.

I am not suggesting that as a matter of course a submissive must or should question every order. However, depending on the context and situation surrounding a request, aren't there times when a submissive is being more attentive to their Dom's needs by not blindly following Him or Her.

I would also add that the thumb example and this discussion is exactly why BDSMers should give careful thought before entering into any power exchange, TPE or less than.

 

[Kajira Callista]

Re: Re: Thank you, Shadowsdream and Etoile.

I am going to be very brave and do the unthinkable, disagree with Shadowsdream. I know I am taking a big risk here, but life is boring without a risk now and then. If a Dominant asks their slave to perform any act which falls within the agreement both of them have made, the slave has to comply and honour the request of their Dominant.

Would it be a fair comparison to ask if it is okay for the Dominant who has promised to never permanently give away or kill their submissive/slave, to then change their mind and decide to not honour their word?

The contract (written or orally) made between the Dominant and submissive is sacred and should always be honoured by both parties. The moment one of the parties decides that it is time to ignore the agreements made, the relationship becomes empty, eroded, and leaves the realm of BDSM.

Of course, asking a submissive to mutilate themselves is not a sign of greatness, in effect it would say a lot about the Dominant who would ask that of their property.

If a Dominant becomes temporary insane then it is another matter; however the cutting of a thumb is not even as outrageous as one might think. In Yakuza (Japanese mafia) gangs, fingers are removed in a ritual called yubitsume. The reasons for yubitsume are atonement for serious offences, punishment, or as a gesture of gratitude. Usually, the finger cutting for the first offence removes the top joint of the little finger, and the freshly chopped digit is wrapped in a cloth and ceremoniously handed to the offender's boss (oyabun). Further infractions might result in removal of the next joint of the finger. Formal expulsions from Yakuza membership might also include yubitsume as a final mark of punishment.



MissTaken in a TPE relationship it is an impossibility for a submissive to go against their Dominant, it is simply not for a submissive to decide what the better course to follow is. There is certainly room for voicing concerns, expressing fears, asking for clarification, but if TPE is the type relationship, as in Total Power Exchange, the final decision is still the Dominant’s to make and the submissive’s to obey. The moment the submissive ‘decides’ what is the better course to follow, the submissive becomes the Dominant, and IMHO is topping from the bottom.

The submissive should sacrifice, whenever necessary, their own comfort and pleasure to please and obey their Dominant. The submissive should strive to be pleasing in all they do. The submissive should always put the needs of their Dominant before their own. A submissive should be allowed to offer an opinion when asked. A submissive should be allowed to speak and ask questions unless bidden to be silent, and they should be allowed to respectfully correct their Dominant when the Dominant is mistaken. However a submissive is submissive and should not be allowed to overrule the Dominant just because they think the Dominant is making a mistake or because they think that they know better than the Dominant.

Francisco.

This question is not meant to flame, just something im very curious about. If you harmed catalina in a way that was negative to her or against her beliefs or she could not accept or get passed...would you expect her or want her to stick around?

 

[catalina_francisco]

Hello Shadowsdream,

Based on first hand knowledge about contracts in most probability you have the power to cut off bodily parts unless of course you have a specific exclusion. Contracts normally have an implicit acceptance rule which gives the Dominant the right to do whatever they want with exclusions which are explicitly mentioned.

I actually do not see much difference in what you are stating in your second post and me. You are not giving the submissive the right to overrule you.

I would kick his ass to the curb without a backward glance if he disobeyed in a way that held a significant importance to Me or dishonored Me

From your statement it is clear that would he disobey in such a way that you as a Dominant would find important it would lead to punishment.

Etoile the only one who can decide if you handled correctly is your daddy; e is the one who has the power and the one who decides if you handled correctly. Sometimes it is good to give the Dominant some time to think over a decision. A TPE does not necessarily need to mean that the Dominant has unlimited power over the submissive’s body, it all depends on what the parties involved have agreed.

If the agreement is that e can do whatever e wants with you, then yes, you have broken the agreement and it is up to e to decide how to punish you, if not then you handled it correctly. You see in the end whatever I say or anyone else says is irrelevant, it is what the two of you make out of it what counts.

MissTaken I have heard that statement before in many forms and basically can only disagree with it completely. To state that a submissive has the power to decide which order to follow and which not, you are taking power away from the exchange. A submissive can not overrule a Dominant and can not suddenly decide that they are more equipped to make a decision.

Of course this does not mean that a Dominant can do whatever they want, it is for this specific reason a contract is so important. The signing of the contract is not the important part though; it is the talking and the setting up of the contract that counts. The negotiation between the involved parties clarifies the relationship and sets the agreed and needed boundaries.

Especially important, it is for those relationships were there are no boundaries, it is important to make clear to all involved parties how far the actual agreement goes before signing/agreeing. Often things are not talked about and are implicitly accepted. IMHO that is the worst that can be done in TPE, everything needs to be talked about and explicitly specified.

Important to remember is it is never correct for the submissive to overrule and decide they know better than the Dominant. HOWEVER it is in the right of the submissive to ask clarification about an instruction, it is in the right of a submissive to express sincere concerns, it is the obligation of the submissive to share relevant information which may influence the decision making process of the Dominant.

Francisco.

 

[catalina_francisco]

Re: Re: Re: Thank you, Shadowsdream and Etoile.

This question is not meant to flame, just something im very curious about. If you harmed catalina in a way that was negative to her or against her beliefs or she could not accept or get passed...would you expect her or want her to stick around?

I can answer this one easily as it is something we have dealt with as a part of the relationship. Firstly, no-one is perfect, Dominant or not, so to expect them to never make a mistake is living a dream. It is inevitable at some point they will make some bad choice or judgement, sometimes it may be small, sometimes big, but it will happen....same as I as a slave am not perfect and will make mistakes along the way. It is important to know and understand this up front, and discuss plans for how it will be handled if and when it happens, and then stick to that plan and all that is behind it's inception...that being the deep bond, the caring, the commitment.

There are things which arise from time to time I feel I cannot get my head around, and we discuss them, sometimes repeatedly until it reaches a point where he decides I can do it and survive, or I will be deeply harmed in some way, be it emotionally, psychologically, or physically to a point where it makes it necessary to revise. That then comes back to the commitment he has made to care for me as his property and never do anything which will knowingly harm me permanently in a way I am not able to deal with. I am always allowed to raise my concerns and share any reasons I feel may be valid in him changing an order. Sometimes there is a vital piece of information I have that he doesn't which can change his whole view of the idea, and it is then my duty to share that with him. I am not allowed to act on my own decision and decide if I should obey or not....I am expected to discuss it with him if I have any legitimate concerns.

There have been times I have believed something to be impossible, and he has differed and ordered me to proceed. He has made correct judgements, and though they have not always been easy to comply to, in the long term they have enabled me to grow and feel pride in my ability to fulfill his wishes. Above all, he expects me to try my best, and does not demand I must always succeed 100%, nor obey blindly and remain mute if there is something he needs to know. In the longrun, if it means harm to me, it means harm to him. If it is too difficult, he will support and help me through it if he sees the need. Bottom line though is we are committed in the long term and love all the pleasure and pain that brings. The thing I love is this is the first relationship in my life in which I do not question my place or his acceptance of me, warts and all, when things are not picture perfect..I do not wonder if he will be there in the morning, if he will love me today as he did yesterday (well stronger actually) , or if I would be better elsewhere..this is where I belong, where I am loved and protected, and is where my heart and soul reside 24/7.

Catalina

 

[MissTaken]

Important to remember is it is never correct for the submissive to overrule and decide they know better than the Dominant. HOWEVER it is in the right of the submissive to ask clarification about an instruction, it is in the right of a submissive to express sincere concerns, it is the obligation of the submissive to share relevant information which may influence the decision making process of the Dominant.

Francisco.

And you would then agree that a submissive isn't required to blindly obey?

Even by way of asking questions, gathering information and expressing concern, the submissive is not blindly obeying.

And perhaps two things have affected my position in this discussion.

A) my profession requires that I work with families who face all sorts of tragedies and mental health issues that lead to sometimes surprisingly chaotic or traumatic happenstances. I hesitated to bring mental health issues into the discussion, but yes, what about a Dom who has serious unmet mental health needs and an unwitting submissive who doesn't realize it until it seems too late? Or a bit more realistically, a Dominant who is an alcoholic who hasn't used alchol in many years. What happens if he begins drinking again and becomes unreasonable?

B) The second thing impacting my position? I realize now that I was never a very good submissive!



I completely agree with the use of contracts before entering into a TPE, but also advocate for review and revision of these contracts.

People change.
Their expectations change as do their needs, wants, desires.

Do you believe a couple grows out of their contract or that the contract is under constant or periodic review?


And I do believe it is a Dominant's responsibility to assist a submissive to become the very best person and submissive they can be and hopefully achieve a state of self actualization. To ask a submissive to do anything that devalues them would be unconcionable.

 

[Kajira Callista]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Thank you, Shadowsdream and Etoile.

I can answer this one easily as it is something we have dealt with as a part of the relationship. Firstly, no-one is perfect, Dominant or not, so to expect them to never make a mistake is living a dream. It is inevitable at some point they will make some bad choice or judgement, sometimes it may be small, sometimes big, but it will happen....same as I as a slave am not perfect and will make mistakes along the way. It is important to know and understand this up front, and discuss plans for how it will be handled if and when it happens, and then stick to that plan and all that is behind it's inception...that being the deep bond, the caring, the commitment.

There are things which arise from time to time I feel I cannot get my head around, and we discuss them, sometimes repeatedly until it reaches a point where he decides I can do it and survive, or I will be deeply harmed in some way, be it emotionally, psychologically, or physically to a point where it makes it necessary to revise. That then comes back to the commitment he has made to care for me as his property and never do anything which will knowingly harm me permanently in a way I am not able to deal with. I am always allowed to raise my concerns and share any reasons I feel may be valid in him changing an order. Sometimes there is a vital piece of information I have that he doesn't which can change his whole view of the idea, and it is then my duty to share that with him. I am not allowed to act on my own decision and decide if I should obey or not....I am expected to discuss it with him if I have any legitimate concerns.

There have been times I have believed something to be impossible, and he has differed and ordered me to proceed. He has made correct judgements, and though they have not always been easy to comply to, in the long term they have enabled me to grow and feel pride in my ability to fulfill his wishes. Above all, he expects me to try my best, and does not demand I must always succeed 100%, nor obey blindly and remain mute if there is something he needs to know. In the longrun, if it means harm to me, it means harm to him. If it is too difficult, he will support and help me through it if he sees the need. Bottom line though is we are committed in the long term and love all the pleasure and pain that brings. The thing I love is this is the first relationship in my life in which I do not question my place or his acceptance of me, warts and all, when things are not picture perfect..I do not wonder if he will be there in the morning, if he will love me today as he did yesterday (well stronger actually) , or if I would be better elsewhere..this is where I belong, where I am loved and protected, and is where my heart and soul reside 24/7.

Catalina

What you said was lovely catalina and is mostly from a sub/slaves view. The question was asked of Him because i was looking for his thoughts on it.

 

[Shadowsdream]

Hello Francisco

Yes I have a fair amount of knowledge of contracts used both in limited trainings and oaths of ever lasting submission and Domination.

I often am the One bringing in the text of caution when the over excited submissive would sign away their common sense in their own blood no less!

My original contract with the slave slut stipulated that I would own him lock stock and cock other than the exclusion of his business as it was the day the contract was signed and that My control would no way impact his family and friendships. It was My insistance that included family and friends simply because I knew that he would have abandoned the world to be at My feet and in the process would have become less than he was when I accepted his application.

Soooo if I were to command the cutting off of his thumb (s) I would in fact be the One breaking the contract for without all of his digits he could not be 100% effective in his chosen career. Two specific stipulations that he asked for were that I never do anything that would damage his ears or his hands...both work related necessities.

If I were unreasonable and could not accept the fact he could not comply, and he did comply, not only would he lessen his value through blind obedience in this matter he would also lose My respect.

 

[sexymom]

Complete, blind obedience is one of those concepts that works well in theory, but not always in the real world. My experience has been that when people make absolute statements they carefully avoid situations which would invalidate their theories.

My Master/husband is a student of military history and leadership, and a former armed forces officer. He has said that one of the leadership principles that is often taught is to never give an order you think the people won't obey.

In all the discussion of "no limits" submission/slavery, I have never actually encountered a sub/slave who said there was nothing they wouldn't do. Similarly, we know there are, or can be, situations where disobedience is not only the appropriate thing to do, but actually the required thing. The only way to avoid this is for the Master to make his instructions so general, or so limited, that the slave has a great deal of freedom. Of course, he may do just that, but that makes the concept of tpe much less drastic or dramatic than most people think of. There's nothing wrong with that, but it's a semantic exercise rather than a real world difference in beliefs.

I can think of two good examples: one from real life, and the other hypothetical. There was a high-security area on a military installation, and the commanding general had ordered that anyone who drove through the security check point without stopping was to be shot. Of course, the first person who violated the order was the general himself, but the guard didn't shoot him- he did fire in the air to get his attention. The shook-up general told the guard he hoped and assumed that the guard was trying to shoot him and missed, rather than deliberately disobeying orders. The hypothetical situation is a lot simpler: you go out, and you tell your slave not to leave the house until you return. While you are out, the house catches fire.

I don't think this sort of thing invalidates the concepts, but it illustrates that in real life it isn't as clear-cut and precise as it is often advocated in these discussions.

 

[catalina_francisco]

Shadowsdream we are saying the same, there has been a contract agreed upon, in the contract there is an explicitly mentioned exclusion which then becomes active.

For the rest, you are enforcing a point which I have made often, it is important for a Dominant to have ethics. This is why I always find it a pleasure to read your posts, your ethics show strongly throughout every single one of your posts.

Hello MissT,

I will answer by asking you to consider the following situation:

A submissive does not want to have sex with another person, however the contract they have agreed on entails a stipulation which specify that the submissive’s body belongs to the Dominant and that the Dominant can share it with others.

The submissive tells the Dominant their feelings, they express their concern, and they inform the Dominant about how this might cause them mental problems.
The Dominant agrees with their concerns and decides to make a training program in which the Dominant will take the submissive step by step to the desired end goal.
After half a year of training the submissive still has the same concerns however the Dominant feels confident the sub can comply.

In the case where a submissive decides to overrule the Dominant, the power of the Dominant is non existent. The submissive can now basically decide to refuse the order, in which case the submissive is dishonouring their agreement and steps outside the boundaries of the relationship.

If the submissive tries to follow the command and fails, the one that has failed in the relationship is not the submissive but the Dominant, the submissive has done their duty, given all information necessary for the Dominant to make the proper decision and although they were convinced and sure about the end result the submissive still tried to honour the Dominant by obeying.

Some say by disobeying the Dominant the submissive is enabling the Dominant to be a better Dominant, this to me is BS.

MissT how would you want scooter to perform and behave under such circumstances?

Kajira Callista, I can be very brief and short on answering you, yes I would expect Catalina to stay loyal to me under any circumstance, and she can expect the same from me.

There was a high-security area on a military installation, and the commanding general had ordered that anyone who drove through the security check point without stopping was to be shot. Of course, the first person who violated the order was the general himself, but the guard didn't shoot him- he did fire in the air to get his attention. The shook-up general told the guard he hoped and assumed that the guard was trying to shoot him and missed, rather than deliberately disobeying orders.

Interestingly enough the general of course had the power to bring the soldier up for charges and could have done so successfully. It was the general who in this case decided the soldier had followed his instructions. The soldier being in the armed forces is of course completely aware of the fact that he has been put in a difficult situation and knows that he can be punished for not following the instructions to the letter, but to the spirit.

Francisco.

 

[MissTaken]

Of course, Francisco

Those terms agreed upon must be adhered to.

If the submissive has agreed to sharing, he or she must trust the Dominant to ensure that the situation is the best possible situation so that the sub may please his or her Dominant.

As that situation occurs in a reasonable, well thought out situation, there shouldn't be a problem and yes, as you said, if the submissive is unable or unwilling to comply after training and assistance from her Dominant, there is a serious problem.

I have seem contracts which seemed to me to be very carelessly drafted. We cannot foresee every eventuality, but certainly hard limits should be addressed in specifics and what ownership entails for the Dominant and submissive in question must be addressed in the contract. Thereby, the two will have taken opportunity to discuss ownership at length.

Too often these things don't happen. Ther terms of a contract may be too generalized or too glossed over with the romantic and dreamy aspects of D/s which leaves a lot of grey area in terms of what is really being agreed upon.


Yes, in the situations I have described wherein a submissive might and should feel compelled to disobey...i.e. mental health needs etc, there is not always a clear window to see through to predict that future.

Also, with the thumb thing, if mutilation of body parts was agreed upon as part of the contract, he better cut the damn thing off if I tell him to. However, returning to the original point, if he refused to enter into a contract wherein mutilation was a component, does that make him more or less a slave than someone who is willing to do so? Can a slave be a slave if there are conditions, limits etc? (Stirring the pot)

I would concede, francisco, that in a relationship that has been handled responsibly and both parties have entered into the relationship with eyes wide open it is unlikely that a situation would occur where the submissive should not obey or at the very least, try to obey. AS sexymom points out, there might come a time when common sense says leave the building in spite of Master's orders

As this thread has moved on, it has given me pause to think once again that most things can be avoided with communication.

I do like when a thread takes on a life of it's own. How far off topic can we get and still have a good BDSM discussion?

 

[catalina_francisco]

Hello MissT,

I have just added a typical contract to my TPE thread, you just beat me on answering my post and me posting the contract.

Francisco.
Ps Thank you the excellent and stimulating discussion sofar.

 

[sexymom]

"Interestingly enough the general of course had the power to bring the soldier up for charges and could have done so successfully. It was the general who in this case decided the soldier had followed his instructions."

That's exactly the type of semantic gyrations which are often necessary when discussing an absolute concept such as tpe. The general decided that disobedience of his order was, in effect, obedience, so no punishment was needed. Any other solution or outcome would have been unacceptable.

 

[Etoile]

Etoile the only one who can decide if you handled correctly is your daddy; e is the one who has the power and the one who decides if you handled correctly. Sometimes it is good to give the Dominant some time to think over a decision. A TPE does not necessarily need to mean that the Dominant has unlimited power over the submissive’s body, it all depends on what the parties involved have agreed.

If the agreement is that e can do whatever e wants with you, then yes, you have broken the agreement and it is up to e to decide how to punish you, if not then you handled it correctly. You see in the end whatever I say or anyone else says is irrelevant, it is what the two of you make out of it what counts.

I guess I was worried that because I challenged em on this incident (which I still feel was the right thing to do; it happened more than a year ago), we're not TPE. I guess we can be seen to be TPE as long as I was punished for my misbehavior, which I was.

 

[Etoile]

Soooo if I were to command the cutting off of his thumb (s) I would in fact be the One breaking the contract for without all of his digits he could not be 100% effective in his chosen career. Two specific stipulations that he asked for were that I never do anything that would damage his ears or his hands...both work related necessities.

Is your slave a sign language interpreter too?!
I never set it up as a contractual requirement (Daddy and I don't even have a written contract or agreement), but that is my job too and I would not want my ears or hands harmed.

 

[Shadowsdream]

Is your slave a sign language interpreter too?!
I never set it up as a contractual requirement (Daddy and I don't even have a written contract or agreement), but that is my job too and I would not want my ears or hands harmed.

LOL No but he is a musician, piano, bass and keyboard. he also works in film television and radio. (sound, editing, producing, etc.)
without those dexterous little fingers and nosey little ears he would have to go to the profession I think he should have..taxi driver!
Kidding!

 

[MissTaken]

"Interestingly enough the general of course had the power to bring the soldier up for charges and could have done so successfully. It was the general who in this case decided the soldier had followed his instructions."

That's exactly the type of semantic gyrations which are often necessary when discussing an absolute concept such as tpe. The general decided that disobedience of his order was, in effect, obedience, so no punishment was needed. Any other solution or outcome would have been unacceptable.

Hmm so disobedience without disempowering the Dominant....

????

Interesting concept?

 

[tenacious_rebel]

Re: Of course, Francisco

However, returning to the original point, if he refused to enter into a contract wherein mutilation was a component, does that make him more or less a slave than someone who is willing to do so? Can a slave be a slave if there are conditions, limits etc? (Stirring the pot)

I'm a little puzzled why this is being placed here as you and many have mentioned a dislike of the discussion of who is seen as a 'real', 'better' or 'worse' submissive, slave, Top, or Dominant with the disputes of who rates who as what. But as it has been, and I have followed this conversation with interest, I will bite. As some have said, think before you sign or agree ot a contract and promise. That being said, wouldn't it be common sense for a slave or submissive to think about the terrms of a contract and if anything significant did not match with how they saw their submission, not to sign? Isn't it about finding someone who sahres the same or compatible vision of D/s? Making that choice should not be grounds to judge someone as a lesser being or an examplary one, just informed and kowing who and what they are. Any Dominant whoi judged them on that, past their realization that possibly they were not looking for the same thing, I would think needs to look at and how they think about submissives, and their onw perception of dominance.

As for a slave being a slave with ot wiothout limits, I think that is subjective. It is obvious most have a definition of what they expect in a sub, slave, Dominant etc., mostly as a means of finding what they need. That does not mean they identify all by that personal view. Few slaves are willing to agree to a no limits arrangement, and some who identify as submissives will. It is why communication is needed before entering a relationship for while labels give a general idea of what can be expected, the finer points and definitions change with each person, and usually with each realationship. What you may look for in a slave, I might choose to find unsuitable.