The blank check of consent

[catalina_francisco]

I believe the point is that ridiculous extremes DO happen. Maybe not often, but they are not unheard of either. How many times has the child molester turned out to be the minister everyone loved; The woman who everyone knew adored her kids..but killed them to be with another man; the rapist/murderer that was such a "good nice man". I daresay Lacey Peterson would have told you her husband would never kill her. The local pastor's wife of 25 years did not have the first clue her husband was into child porn and and was abusing their granddaughter. But guess what! Those ridiculous extremes happened.

These examples all speak to me of situations of people who were not closely involved with the other person. Lacey Peterson's case, as sad as it was, also was a prime example of someone accepting what they were told with no to little evidence it was so. The other examples of partners leaving for another lover etc., all smack of someone who has a lot of availability to have another life their partner doesn't know about. The reason I can feel such certainty about F's character and activites and as such an indication clearly of who he is, is in part because from the moment I came here as his slave and wife I was on the road with him during his working day, sometimes for 18 hours a day (actually before we even met he was online and phone to me a minumum of 12 hours a day, usually more), and now he works mostly from home or is only gone for a short period during which time I often have to contact him about something he needs to attend to immediately and he often invites me along for the ride....and I also have met his work colleagues, his friends, his family, and always had open access to them even before we met, including his employer. That leaves very little opportunity for him to have a deep dark secret side which he has kept hidden from me.

Of course I also rely on knowing the things he hates in life the most and has been very vocal about without my indicating my thoughts one way or the other before he revealed his feelings....amongst them are abuse of women and children, incest, paedophelia, murder and taking of life, dishonesty, theft, and unprovoked violence. He doesn't just not like these things, he has a deep intolerance for them so he would not do anything to bring them about either through his own hand or that of another. Before meeting I also knew his political and religious beliefs, his ethics, countless experiences throughout his life, personal thoughts and dreams he shared with me, had a copy of his passport, had his bank account numbers, had his address and phone number, and had access to his family and work colleagues, and after marriage I also had contact with his last long term partner and also access to his email accounts. Some people who are in relationships spend a lot of time doing their own thing, spending time apart due to work or friends, and basically spending less than half their time together...we spend less than 2-3% of our time apart, and often during that time are in contact through phone or online.

Catalina

 

[ownedsubgal]

We agree on the last part of this statement, but not completely on the first as for us, under the terms of my entering into this phase of our relationship where I gave up all rights and limits to him, it then over ruled abuse for me. I don't think F completely sees it the same, or I know he didn't in the past, but then a lot has changed since that discussion here and so I think he is closer to my understanding if not at the same point in that by giving up my right to consent, or to phrase it better, my agreement that I consent to whatever he wishes/orders/commands, there can be nothing where I would consider he was abusing me because I gave up the terms of a relationship where that would be applicable. For it to be abuse it then becomes a case of not being fair which he often reminds me has nothing to do with our relationship. Basically I am his to do with as he sees fit. I always understood that was where you were also at so perhaps I have misunderstood your wording in this post.



Catalina

no i understand you here perfectly, and i used to feel the same way myself, until i changed the way i defined abuse to fit my Master's definition of the term.

my thinking (which i think is probably in line with yours) used to be basically this: i'm his. he has the right to do with me what he wills. abuse implies that he is doing something he has no right to do. therefore "abuse" cannot apply to us since there is nothing he has no right to do.

however my Master's idea of abuse has always been more literal...intentionally causing harm or damage to another (whether physical, mental or emotional). things that would qualify for us would be permanent or long lasting physical damage (broken bones and such), emotional abuse, psychological torture, instilling a deep sense of fear for one's life or safety, etc. all of the above are things he's done before and very likely will do again, and they are all things he himself would define as abuse. He would even go so far as to say that he has a NEED to abuse his slave/mate...it's something he fought with and tried to suppress in the past, and has only openly embraced within the last 10 yrs or so.

another thing is that the word abuse often comes attached with a negative or value connotation, which i think was another problem with the way i used to define it (abuse = bad, and Master can't do "bad"). we don't qualify abuse as right or wrong, it just is or isn't. so, that is why i can say, that yes, my Master can/will abuse me, yes he has the right to abuse me, and since it is his right, it is not "wrong" for him to abuse me.

 

[catalina_francisco]

A comment and question to Cat:

I interpret some of what you have contributed as saying....there came a point of time in your life in which you made a decision...this decision was one that you consider to be irreversible. You left no room from a personal aspect to change it once it was made, and you made it fulling knowing the consequences of making such a decision.

My Questions: So at that moment when you entered into this relationship, wasn't consent then also given with the same irreversableness attached to it?

If so I see this as a good example of how consent can be black and white at the relationship level, though the day to day living of it may at times be grey-ish in nature. I also see that your motivation is not stemming from, will I consent, but rather I have already consented, now it is a matter of trying hard to live up to that consent?

I see a clear difference from giving up all power and then striving to live up to that, and say a person who enters into a relationship with "limits". The first offers submission and obedience without conditions attached and tries one best to live up to the level of commitment. The other offers submission and obediece with strings attached where obedience and submission henges upon whether or not it falls within stated parameters.

It seems that some believe that everyone has parameters therefore everyone must fall into the second category at one point or the other from a logical perspective. I don't agree. I think that part of being a slave is the giving up power of all parameters, where as others retain the power to such parameters.

As I understand it, you as a person may still have limits in what you can or cannot do, but you have given up the right exercise any power in regards to them, which is quite different than a person who has the same limits and chooses to maintain decision making control over them rather than trust another to do it.

The last paragraph is about as clear as I can state it according to my understanding and I wonder if you agree to that assessment.

Dang....got to head out to work...catch you all later.

That is pretty much how it is. I had very few limits when we first met and got married, then after coming here to decide where we were going to live permanently I offered him the chance to accept me taking on TPE which was a long term goal more so than an almost immediate one. Being the sweet, honorable man he is, instead of rubbing his hands together with glee and taking me up on it, he told me he was not prepared to accept my offer until he was satisfied I had really thought it through and all the ramifications it held for me and us. He made it clear that once I crossed that point, I could no longer pull back and decide it was too hard, or that I accussed him of being dishonest by asking something which was previously a limit or something we had both thought would never be included. I did my thinking and I made my decision to still go through with it. In all honesty, though on one level I knew what I was doing, I think on another level I was carried away with how it felt to me, what it would mean to him, and didn't fully realise just how difficult it was going to be to maintain as a reality.

It also has not been easy for him to maintain at times as he does care for me and like any human, questions sometimes whether he is letting his own desires cloud his judgement, whether perhaps he is going to far, whether he should back off and let me catch myself up. Fortunately we can communicate about it and have reached a point where we both know we are not going to walk out on the other, are not going to pull the unreasonable unfair card when pushed to extremes, I am not going to hold him responsible if he ever makes a bad judgement or mistake, and I much prefer it hard and difficultl than soft and easy...and so we have reached a new level for us where the gloves are off so to speak, and there is no longer any fear in that...we both want the same thing.

Though I may find something difficult or impossible to immediately do, it is not a 'get out of jail free' card, and often can bring on a harsh punishment to remind me what is most important...similarly, even if I am sick or in pain from physical issues, it does not mean he steps back and waits for me to feel better...he may, but he doesn't always. I think one of the turning points which brought us to this point was when he drove me to a point where my physical reaction to the pain endured was to throw up profusely....he found it a turn on to know he had driven me to that point and found a way to accept it was OK, and though I wasn't feeling too great at the time, I was also OK he took me there.

Catalina

 

[catalina_francisco]

no i understand you here perfectly, and i used to feel the same way myself, until i changed the way i defined abuse to fit my Master's definition of the term.

my thinking (which i think is probably in line with yours) used to be basically this: i'm his. he has the right to do with me what he wills. abuse implies that he is doing something he has no right to do. therefore "abuse" cannot apply to us since there is nothing he has no right to do.

however my Master's idea of abuse has always been more literal...intentionally causing harm or damage to another (whether physical, mental or emotional). things that would qualify for us would be permanent or long lasting physical damage (broken bones and such), emotional abuse, psychological torture, instilling a deep sense of fear for one's life or safety, etc. all of the above are things he's done before and very likely will do again, and they are all things he himself would define as abuse. He would even go so far as to say that he has a NEED to abuse his slave/mate...it's something he fought with and tried to suppress in the past, and has only openly embraced within the last 10 yrs or so.

another thing is that the word abuse often comes attached with a negative or value connotation, which i think was another problem with the way i used to define it (abuse = bad, and Master can't do "bad"). we don't qualify abuse as right or wrong, it just is or isn't. so, that is why i can say, that yes, my Master can/will abuse me, yes he has the right to abuse me, and since it is his right, it is not "wrong" for him to abuse me.

Yes, it is a way of thinking and one we share. I am just happy I am not on the other side of the whip wrestling with the pressure of how to come to terms with it being part of who I am as it is not as simple as some imagine it to be but is good when they reach that point where they can accept it as part of themselves, and have someone who is willing to be that outlet point.

Catalina

 

[ownedsubgal]

Yes, it is a way of thinking and one we share. I am just happy I am not on the other side of the whip wrestling with the pressure of how to come to terms with it being part of who I am as it is not as simple as some imagine it to be but is good when they reach that point where they can accept it as part of themselves, and have someone who is willing to be that outlet point.

Catalina

yes indeed. He tells me often that i am the only person he has ever been able to be and express his whole true self with, and i am so honored and grateful that i can provide that "safe space" for him. even if it does hurt sometimes lol.

 

[RJMasters]

I've done both.

It has always seemed to me that the less versed a girl is with bdsm, the more likely she is to want things to develop naturally, which is much to my style. The more experienced a submissive is, the more likely she seems to be to have a laundry list of demands for me to follow in order to be the ever mysterious "real Dom".

Watches Marquis round the bases as that one disappears over the wall.

 

[RJMasters]

That is pretty much how it is. I had very few limits when we first met and got married, then after coming here to decide where we were going to live permanently I offered him the chance to accept me taking on TPE which was a long term goal more so than an almost immediate one. Being the sweet, honorable man he is, instead of rubbing his hands together with glee and taking me up on it, he told me he was not prepared to accept my offer until he was satisfied I had really thought it through and all the ramifications it held for me and us. He made it clear that once I crossed that point, I could no longer pull back and decide it was too hard, or that I accussed him of being dishonest by asking something which was previously a limit or something we had both thought would never be included. I did my thinking and I made my decision to still go through with it. In all honesty, though on one level I knew what I was doing, I think on another level I was carried away with how it felt to me, what it would mean to him, and didn't fully realise just how difficult it was going to be to maintain as a reality.

It also has not been easy for him to maintain at times as he does care for me and like any human, questions sometimes whether he is letting his own desires cloud his judgement, whether perhaps he is going to far, whether he should back off and let me catch myself up. Fortunately we can communicate about it and have reached a point where we both know we are not going to walk out on the other, are not going to pull the unreasonable unfair card when pushed to extremes, I am not going to hold him responsible if he ever makes a bad judgement or mistake, and I much prefer it hard and difficultl than soft and easy...and so we have reached a new level for us where the gloves are off so to speak, and there is no longer any fear in that...we both want the same thing.

Though I may find something difficult or impossible to immediately do, it is not a 'get out of jail free' card, and often can bring on a harsh punishment to remind me what is most important...similarly, even if I am sick or in pain from physical issues, it does not mean he steps back and waits for me to feel better...he may, but he doesn't always. I think one of the turning points which brought us to this point was when he drove me to a point where my physical reaction to the pain endured was to throw up profusely....he found it a turn on to know he had driven me to that point and found a way to accept it was OK, and though I wasn't feeling too great at the time, I was also OK he took me there.

Catalina

Thank you.

 

[Netzach]

I appreciate this argument. No one exists outside of their personal history. It reminds me of a pacifist argument I read once where, when asked if he would shoot the man who was about to kill his wife, the pacifist replied "but I would never have a gun".

But it's also realistic to realize that sometimes people do unexpectedly find themselves suffering from mental illness; or, to be more crude, they go batshit insane. Or, as Geoff said, people who thought they knew their partners inside and out learn after years that they're child molesters. I think if you're going to make a statement like "I am incapable of leaving this relationship", it's worth considering (as I'm sure those of you who are in TPE have) under what circumstances that reality could actually cease to exist. Etoile's question is valid, I'd say, even if it is a pretty big what if.

I find the question is more on the other end of extremes.

If that person woke up one day and said "this isn't for me. I want to be equal partners." If they had overhaul or problems SO great, would you submit to vanilla?

I wouldn't expect anyone to, personally.

I know this may seem as far fetched to those with Masters as being ordered to eat baby ducks alive but things DO happen and people do undergo radical shifts. I personally don't think that a relationship predicated on a certain dynamic will weather the total overhaul of that dynamic...with no forseeable end in sight.

But that's just me.

 

[RJMasters]

What if the aregument is serious because you won't shut up. How about if the problem at hand has been discussed and after a long and drawn out process it is clear that there is a disagreement. As is in the case of many disagreement voices get raised...and some attitudes fly a bit.

The Dom says....I think that's enough for now, we will need to discuss this later, but the submissive decides its not enough...want to push. The Dom repeats, that's enough more sternly...we are not going to agree on this issue at this point in time now leave it alone...

(you know what happens next.....) Nope she doesn't leave it alone, she needs to throw that last little jib out there because she is not happy that she isn't going to get her way and there is not going to be an understanding on this issue....so she throws it out there.

Now several things can happen in the next several moments and many of them have to do with her being in all kinds of trouble. And I am not talking play here or bed room sex domination or submission. Yeah the Dom is mad and he is going to do something which is going to... in some ways..... express that anger.

Now many of you at home with your mouths gapping and gasping saying....noooooo say it isn't so RJ.....Well it is fucking so. The shit is going to hit the fan. But anything he does in anger will not be the Domly thing to do....right?

bullshit.

Its the whole package, you get the Domly dude when he is all charming, and you get the OMFG I shouldn't have done that cause now he is one pissed Domly dude. And if your really lucky you sometimes get to have both at the same time.

My point is that sometimes its not about the submissive(actually I take that back because a submissive is always 50% of what it is always about as long as they are in the relationship, but I am making a point). Its not about worrying if you get your feelings hurt, hell half the time you all do things which deserve it anyways and you know its true.

Sometimes it can be good to be made or forced to get down on your knees. Yes its suppose to be humilating, yes its suppose to sting like hell, infact its suppose to literally tear your world in two and say fuck fuck fuck!


What's wrong with getting down on your knees?

What's wrong with sucking cock?

These are things which are well within the normal limits of most M/s and D/s relationships.

Are you being forced to do something that is a limit? Perhaps arguable from a mental and emotional aspect, but physically neither of these two things are Even remotely close to pushing limits and these are things you normally would do voluntarily.

So what is really the problem here? The problem is that there is a power struggle erupting here in this situation. And the bottom line here is that the submissive is balking at giving up the power, so the dominant is about to "take" it. That's right I said take it.

You see up to the point where he told her to drop it, he was asking that she comply to his request or command. But in the above situation she didn't. He wasn't asking her to agree with him at this point about the arguement nor was he saying she was wrong and he was right about what they were arguing about. He simply realised that they disagreed which is known to happen from time to time in life between two people in a relationship. He made a decision (hello dominants are known to do that from time to time). She balked.

So for those who still have their jaw hanging open....I have two questions...what are the consequences that will come if the dominant doesn't "take" control and power(I am not saying how he will do it either, I will leave that to your own imaginations I have already offered two possible suggestions within known limits)? And two if the dominant doesn't "take control and power" and this pattern is repeated again and again what is the logical outcome?

Think about it....

Is now really the best time to suspend all power exchange? Is it really?

Thank you for your time.


(ps: No RJ and the Mrs didn't have a fight or an argument....its been over 8 years since our last real arguement where I have had to raise my voice. I changed the above scenero for the sake of discussion and to continue to hear other people's opinions and reactions)

 

[RJMasters]

I agree with Cat on it depends on the relationship terms. In some respects this is where at the very beginning of a relationship there is some agreement about what various terms actually mean and how they will be used if the PYL & pyl become a couple.

In Marquis example the first scenario is something I would find hard to deal with. If he let me down because he chose to (not because other circumstances dictated it) I would see it as a lack of respect for me. This would escalate into a full blown argument. He would still have all consensual rights, but his behaviour would lead me to Marquis's second scenario of wanting to talk about how his actions affected me.

In JM's example of a blow job, he describes the simplistic dynamic of D/s which works so well for me.
If I refuse then our relationship is fundamentally changed from what we initially agreed upon, and gave consideration to, when we started out together.

The most challenging aspect of D/s for me, is not doing the consensual, fun, erotic etc things when I want to but when he wants to. It is pretty easy to do things when you are excited or aroused, it is not so easy at other times.

It is an easy situation to fall into. It mirrors the vanilla 'I have a headache' scenario. It is up to both partners to ensure that the agreed dynamic is maintained or changed by open agreement and not by underhand tactics. It is fair to say that the dynamics in a relationship sometimes change by stealth without either person realising what is happening, but at the point it is realised it needs to become an open honest discussion. No matter how difficult that may be to deal with.

I do believe that a PYL should always listen and consider a pyl's viewpoint, although that discussion may not happen instantly (for example in Marquis first scenario). Looking at JM's example it is sometimes the pyl's responsibility to explain in advance why they may find a particular task difficult. That allows the PYL an opportunity to think, discuss and decide if they see it as a short term problem or if it hides something deeper which is not being discussed.

Edit to add: On a lighter note, if we were arguing and he ordered me to suck his cock I would probably find it erotic and it would shut me up!

Good post Shy. You made a lot of good points in it. Ty

 

[RJMasters]

I can soo see me getting into this type of thing. Mumbling curses and my arguments as best I can with an angry little pout on my face. But eventually the curses and argument would stop and my angry pout would turn to want, and I imagin we'd both end up more relaxed and in a clearer head to talk about what the problem was to begin with.

You cheap little tart you

Grinz

 

[Netzach]

What if the aregument is serious because you won't shut up. How about if the problem at hand has been discussed and after a long and drawn out process it is clear that there is a disagreement. As is in the case of many disagreement voices get raised...and some attitudes fly a bit.

The Dom says....I think that's enough for now, we will need to discuss this later, but the submissive decides its not enough...want to push. The Dom repeats, that's enough more sternly...we are not going to agree on this issue at this point in time now leave it alone...

Normally I reinforce "I said LATER" by removing myself from the presence of the offender. Or better yet, the offender from me - I've literally said "get out of my house now."

I like kneeling and fellatio to be fun things in my rel. and adding a lot of negative connotations to both seems at odds with that.

 

[the captians wench]

You cheap little tart you

Grinz

Me?

*bats eyes innocently*

 

[Etoile]

To answer your question, Cat: no, I would not kill for my Daddy. I'm not going to dance around the issue...the answer is no! I knew that as soon as I read the question.

So it has left me wondering, though, perhaps I am not really a slave after all, if there is something I would not do. Another thing I would not do is leave my wife. Long ago Daddy promised that she and I could manage our relationship as we saw fit, without interference. So I guess I would see that as "permission to disobey" and again, maybe I'm not a slave after all. I don't think it makes my relationship less TPE because I wouldn't leave her...I just think it is a special poly person's approach to TPE.

But I wonder if, because my answer to the "would you kill" question is unequivocally no, whether that means we have something less than TPE. Because I would refuse outright, rather than try problem solving operations. I don't know.

Another promise Daddy made to me was that e would never ask me to eat meat, simply because e's not interested in controlling that - as long as I eat properly, I can arrange my habits how I choose. And yet if e decided to order me to cease being a vegetarian, I would do it...I guess because it would be within the confines of our relationship, and the only person really affected is me. (I would also try to lift osg's 400-lb weight, if I were told to.)

I guess I am not sure myself if Daddy and I are TPE. This is probably where I should bow out of the conversation...either to think it over more, or to re-read my "alternate realities" thread, or something.

 

[catalina_francisco]

So for those who still have their jaw hanging open....I have two questions...what are the consequences that will come if the dominant doesn't "take" control and power(I am not saying how he will do it either, I will leave that to your own imaginations I have already offered two possible suggestions within known limits)? And two if the dominant doesn't "take control and power" and this pattern is repeated again and again what is the logical outcome?

Think about it....

Is now really the best time to suspend all power exchange? Is it really?

LOL, it takes a lot more than this to make my jaw drop and I'm not even able to come up with something which might make it possible!! So to answer your questions....the first one for me would bring about disappointment, confusion, sadness, breaking the dynamic and stepping back into a life I no longer want. The second one would mean a dissolving of trust and respect, more confusion, resentment, anger, and a total breakdown of the relationship unless a lot of talking and work were put back into it. Of course some are going to think that is a poor outcome, but then I tend to think that comes from a vanilla or mainstream mindset where it is not so important if the power exchange is lost or damaged, for us it is the basis of our relationship and without a firm foundation, the walls soon begin to crumble.

Catalina

 

[catalina_francisco]

So it has left me wondering, though, perhaps I am not really a slave after all, if there is something I would not do. Another thing I would not do is leave my wife. Long ago Daddy promised that she and I could manage our relationship as we saw fit, without interference. So I guess I would see that as "permission to disobey" and again, maybe I'm not a slave after all. I don't think it makes my relationship less TPE because I wouldn't leave her...I just think it is a special poly person's approach to TPE.

I don't think it should make you any less a slave because you won't kill. As I have said, it is involving a non-consenting other and that is not D/s for me or most people so then has little reflection on your ability to be a slave or obedient. As to the poly, I can only imagine under circumstances where it is not the more traditional type where there is 1 person to whom others submit to it would make it more difficult to negotiate and work within on a daily basis. I know I could not do it, but that is no reflection on whether you are TPE or a slave, it is just it would take too much energy for me and would not fulfil the needs I have personally. A more traditional poly arrangement tires me to think about but could be possible, but I admire you for being able to maintain yours for so long and with the dedication you do...I would fail miserably.

Catalina

 

[SpectreT]

Normally I reinforce "I said LATER" by removing myself from the presence of the offender. Or better yet, the offender from me - I've literally said "get out of my house now."

I like kneeling and fellatio to be fun things in my rel. and adding a lot of negative connotations to both seems at odds with that.

What she said. I have a temper, and the scenario RJ laid out comes dangerously close to a serious, closed-fist, slab of meat style beating if I don't get the hell away from the offender for a while.

A "shut the fuck up and give me head" would be a waste of everyone's time, too, since I'd be limp as a noodle with no chance of erection as long as I'm that pissed off. Besides, for me, personally, with my own limits and overdeveloped sense of honor, it'd feel like cheating in the argument and abuse of trust, as well. Way more damaging to the relationship than any argument could ever be.

Just wanted to add - for once, Marquis and I are in agreement. I don't know if it's because he finally stated his reality in a frame I can relate to, or what. But he nailed it pretty good.

Evil_Geoff stated something that's pretty core to my own belief system, and articulated it better than I have, about the whole "no limits, owned" kind of thing. Personally, that kind of arrangemet doesn't seem psychologically possible within the bounds of sanity for me, but Cat's clarifications of what she means by it, and what her relationship dynamic is like, help it make a little more sense to me. Wouldn't even be possible for me, but it works for her.

 

[catalina_francisco]

Personally, that kind of arrangemet doesn't seem psychologically possible within the bounds of sanity for me, but Cat's clarifications of what she means by it, and what her relationship dynamic is like, help it make a little more sense to me. Wouldn't even be possible for me, but it works for her.

It is certainly not something I advocate for people to jump into, and it is not easy to live it when he chooses to turn the dial up, but I did want it and still even in my darkest moments I don't want it any other way. Even he has times when he doesn't get that as much as it is what he wants as well, and that leads to other pressures such as my trying to inhibit my reactions etc., or talking to him later and trying to help him understand how such a dichotomy can work for me and not be at all what it seems to him at times. I think both my reactions at times, and his, come from those long ingrained messages we are raised with about how things are supposed to be....we certainly weren't told that when someone is begging for you to stop, crying and sobbing hysterically, in agony and even at times trying to pull away that in fact they love everything you are doing and want even more or to go back there sooner rather than later.

It is complicated and as much as I had desires in this extreme direction from mid teens at least, I don't think that maturity or mentally wise I would have been able to handle it before I was at least 35 yo, definately not before 30 yo...it would have been disaster and very much heading in the direction of abuse, very much being conditioned into it more so than enjoying it for the the sheer pleasure it now brings me. Part of that is because I know who I am inside and out, I know what I am capable of on my own, and I know I not only feel I am a survivor but have the real experience of being one.

Catalina

 

[D's mariposa]

To answer your question, Cat: no, I would not kill for my Daddy. I'm not going to dance around the issue...the answer is no! I knew that as soon as I read the question.

So it has left me wondering, though, perhaps I am not really a slave after all, if there is something I would not do. Another thing I would not do is leave my wife. Long ago Daddy promised that she and I could manage our relationship as we saw fit, without interference. So I guess I would see that as "permission to disobey" and again, maybe I'm not a slave after all. I don't think it makes my relationship less TPE because I wouldn't leave her...I just think it is a special poly person's approach to TPE.

But I wonder if, because my answer to the "would you kill" question is unequivocally no, whether that means we have something less than TPE. Because I would refuse outright, rather than try problem solving operations. I don't know.

Another promise Daddy made to me was that e would never ask me to eat meat, simply because e's not interested in controlling that - as long as I eat properly, I can arrange my habits how I choose. And yet if e decided to order me to cease being a vegetarian, I would do it...I guess because it would be within the confines of our relationship, and the only person really affected is me. (I would also try to lift osg's 400-lb weight, if I were told to.)

I guess I am not sure myself if Daddy and I are TPE. This is probably where I should bow out of the conversation...either to think it over more, or to re-read my "alternate realities" thread, or something.

I was going to snip the relevant bits, but I couldn't decide where! Anyway.

My Master and I are TPE, and while I have never defined myself as a slave (I always had a negative response to the word. I found that the depth of my submission has caused some others to consider me a slave. This is making me think long and hard about my view of myself.) I would think that you still are TPE. Knowledge of who your partner is (as in, Fransisco and your Daddy and my Master are not the type to demand you kill for them) doesn't really limit the depths of your power exchange. Your request for a definitive answer from Cat made me ponder if I would kill under orders from Master.

I promised at part of our power exchange, above all, to serve my Master. He has told me that when in doubt, I am to consider His (and by extension our) best interests. So if, in the heat of the moment, He went batshit and demanded I kill someone, I would have to stop and think "is this in His best interests to off this idiot?" If the answer in "No." then no, I wouldn't kill on order. Because it would be a disservice to Him in the long run to kill. I am not serving Him to the best of my ability if I do it. He is enough of a pacifist that I doubt He would ever issue such an order in his right mind. So He would never make the order unless He was under significant duress.

Another thing to consider is if I am personally capable of killing someone. As a pre-meditated issue, no. I couldn't do it. I can't decide if I personally deserve to live or die and I don't have the right to make that decision for someone else. But if someone was threatening my Master, or my family and came down to me or them, lock n load baby! I would not kill on demand, but if it came down to my Master or the crazy man who's threatening Him or us, no contest. Call me selfish if you will. I would try to diffuse a situation to where no-one died, but if I'm incapable of that, I choose my Master over the random stranger with a weapon and intent to do deadly harm, and then deal with the personal ramifications of my act later.


If Master said to me "I changed my mind, we're going vanilla." I would stay with him. My submission to him is not based on the amount of kink in our life. If He said to me "No more, we're done, I'll have the papers to you ASAP." I would go. It would kill me, but I would go. Having no savings of my own, owning all property in common, I would go, and start over with nothing. I guess what I'm saying is, if Master told me to go murder some random stranger, I would be false to my promise if I did it. I would kill to defend Him or protect Him from immediate danger. It's funny, but the idea of killing for him doesn't chill my soul the way the idea of Him telling me to go does. But the fact that I wouldn't kill for Him on orders doesn't lessen the fact that there is a TPE between us. Sometimes submission is more about the orders we do not obey, rather than the the ones we do.

I hope this made sense; I'm not properly caffienated yet.

P.S. The fact that I am supposed to consider the facts at hand an make a decision that would be best in the long run, instead of blindly following an order, is part of the reason I consider myself a submissive and not a slave. It's not the crux of the issue, but it's an important part.

 

[JMohegan]

What if the aregument is serious because you won't shut up. How about if the problem at hand has been discussed and after a long and drawn out process it is clear that there is a disagreement. As is in the case of many disagreement voices get raised...and some attitudes fly a bit.

The Dom says....I think that's enough for now, we will need to discuss this later, but the submissive decides its not enough...want to push. The Dom repeats, that's enough more sternly...we are not going to agree on this issue at this point in time now leave it alone...

(you know what happens next.....) Nope she doesn't leave it alone, she needs to throw that last little jib out there because she is not happy that she isn't going to get her way and there is not going to be an understanding on this issue....so she throws it out there.

Now several things can happen in the next several moments and many of them have to do with her being in all kinds of trouble. And I am not talking play here or bed room sex domination or submission. Yeah the Dom is mad and he is going to do something which is going to... in some ways..... express that anger.

Now many of you at home with your mouths gapping and gasping saying....noooooo say it isn't so RJ.....Well it is fucking so. The shit is going to hit the fan. But anything he does in anger will not be the Domly thing to do....right?

bullshit.

Its the whole package, you get the Domly dude when he is all charming, and you get the OMFG I shouldn't have done that cause now he is one pissed Domly dude.

Bullshit indeed. I agree.

The Dom is allowed to get angry, and he is allowed to express his anger in a way that suits his own personality and his view of the needs of the relationship.

Check out hypothetical #1 in post #5 by Marquis. He wrote: "With every appearance of being nonconsensual, this sort of action would not only be acceptable but quite likely appreciated by the kind of perverse females I fuck with. It's not something I would pull every day, but transcending the immediate argument there is a more important understanding, that she is my woman and I'm allowed to take control."

Once again, I agree.

But also be sure to check out Beachgurl's earlier remarks about people in relationships being well-matched. What is acceptable and ultimately appreciated by one type of woman would devastate another and destroy the relationship in no time flat.

As I said earlier on the thread, when provoked and angry in a personal relationship, I become cold and quiet. At times, passive in the extreme. I'm not gonna shove my cock down her throat or even order her out of the building. I'll stand there, completely motionless, with an ice-cold look on my face.

My point is that sometimes its not about the submissive(actually I take that back because a submissive is always 50% of what it is always about as long as they are in the relationship, but I am making a point). Its not about worrying if you get your feelings hurt, hell half the time you all do things which deserve it anyways and you know its true.

Sometimes it can be good to be made or forced to get down on your knees. Yes its suppose to be humilating, yes its suppose to sting like hell, infact its suppose to literally tear your world in two and say fuck fuck fuck!

Sometimes it can sting like hell and tear your world apart to see him standing, immobile, refusing to utter even the simplest command.

As to the broader point, what you are describing here is a critical distinction between D/s and non, as far as I'm concerned.

I don't want to have to put up with protracted arguments or endless negotiations or manipulative bullshit that some guys endure. If I want to put my foot down, I'm gonna put my fucking foot down. And if she doesn't like that fact, then she's not the woman for me.

 

[the captians wench]

Bullshit indeed. I agree.

The Dom is allowed to get angry, and he is allowed to express his anger in a way that suits his own personality and his view of the needs of the relationship.

Check out hypothetical #1 in post #5 by Marquis. He wrote: "With every appearance of being nonconsensual, this sort of action would not only be acceptable but quite likely appreciated by the kind of perverse females I fuck with. It's not something I would pull every day, but transcending the immediate argument there is a more important understanding, that she is my woman and I'm allowed to take control."

Once again, I agree.

But also be sure to check out Beachgurl's earlier remarks about people in relationships being well-matched. What is acceptable and ultimately appreciated by one type of woman would devastate another and destroy the relationship in no time flat.

As I said earlier on the thread, when provoked and angry in a personal relationship, I become cold and quiet. At times, passive in the extreme. I'm not gonna shove my cock down her throat or even order her out of the building. I'll stand there, completely motionless, with an ice-cold look on my face.

Sometimes it can sting like hell and tear your world apart to see him standing, immobile, refusing to utter even the simplest command.

As to the broader point, what you are describing here is a critical distinction between D/s and non, as far as I'm concerned.

I don't want to have to put up with protracted arguments or endless negotiations or manipulative bullshit that some guys endure. If I want to put my foot down, I'm gonna put my fucking foot down. And if she doesn't like that fact, then she's not the woman for me.

See now that would be more damaging to me. Or like some one else said they just walk out and away from the other person, that would totally distroy me. It would play with my abandonment issues and it would only take a few times before I was not a fraction of the person I once was.

I'd rather something unexpected happend, like in RJ's example. It would take me totally by surprize and away from the current situation.

But then I'm not the type of person to get that angry anyway, and I'm not really argumentitive either. I would have been more likely to stop when he said the first time than to continue. I can only remember one time when I ever got that angry, and I was actually the one that kept insisting we continued the conversation later. He got violent with me, which was something that was not apart of our relationship and I ended up removing myself by means of locking myself in the bathroom and him on the other side trying to break the door down.

That was it, the next day I moved in with my mom. I refuse to live my life where I'm afraid of some one on that level. But I was never the same after that event. It totally broke my trust that he would always take care of me and my needs as well as his own, and it took a long time for me to be able to trust some one else.

 

[callinectes]

What if the aregument is serious because you won't shut up. How about if the problem at hand has been discussed and after a long and drawn out process it is clear that there is a disagreement. As is in the case of many disagreement voices get raised...and some attitudes fly a bit.

The Dom says....I think that's enough for now, we will need to discuss this later, but the submissive decides its not enough...want to push. The Dom repeats, that's enough more sternly...we are not going to agree on this issue at this point in time now leave it alone...

(you know what happens next.....) Nope she doesn't leave it alone, she needs to throw that last little jib out there because she is not happy that she isn't going to get her way and there is not going to be an understanding on this issue....so she throws it out there.

Now several things can happen in the next several moments and many of them have to do with her being in all kinds of trouble. And I am not talking play here or bed room sex domination or submission. Yeah the Dom is mad and he is going to do something which is going to... in some ways..... express that anger.

Now many of you at home with your mouths gapping and gasping saying....noooooo say it isn't so RJ.....Well it is fucking so. The shit is going to hit the fan. But anything he does in anger will not be the Domly thing to do....right?

bullshit.

Its the whole package, you get the Domly dude when he is all charming, and you get the OMFG I shouldn't have done that cause now he is one pissed Domly dude. And if your really lucky you sometimes get to have both at the same time.

My point is that sometimes its not about the submissive(actually I take that back because a submissive is always 50% of what it is always about as long as they are in the relationship, but I am making a point). Its not about worrying if you get your feelings hurt, hell half the time you all do things which deserve it anyways and you know its true.

Sometimes it can be good to be made or forced to get down on your knees. Yes its suppose to be humilating, yes its suppose to sting like hell, infact its suppose to literally tear your world in two and say fuck fuck fuck!


What's wrong with getting down on your knees?

What's wrong with sucking cock?

These are things which are well within the normal limits of most M/s and D/s relationships.

Are you being forced to do something that is a limit? Perhaps arguable from a mental and emotional aspect, but physically neither of these two things are Even remotely close to pushing limits and these are things you normally would do voluntarily.

So what is really the problem here? The problem is that there is a power struggle erupting here in this situation. And the bottom line here is that the submissive is balking at giving up the power, so the dominant is about to "take" it. That's right I said take it.

You see up to the point where he told her to drop it, he was asking that she comply to his request or command. But in the above situation she didn't. He wasn't asking her to agree with him at this point about the arguement nor was he saying she was wrong and he was right about what they were arguing about. He simply realised that they disagreed which is known to happen from time to time in life between two people in a relationship. He made a decision (hello dominants are known to do that from time to time). She balked.

So for those who still have their jaw hanging open....I have two questions...what are the consequences that will come if the dominant doesn't "take" control and power(I am not saying how he will do it either, I will leave that to your own imaginations I have already offered two possible suggestions within known limits)? And two if the dominant doesn't "take control and power" and this pattern is repeated again and again what is the logical outcome?

Think about it....

Is now really the best time to suspend all power exchange? Is it really?

Thank you for your time.


(ps: No RJ and the Mrs didn't have a fight or an argument....its been over 8 years since our last real arguement where I have had to raise my voice. I changed the above scenero for the sake of discussion and to continue to hear other people's opinions and reactions)

Jaw checked...it's not gaping.

You have taken this scenario farther than it was outlined in your OP but trying to apply the answers that were given originally. There is nothing wrong with a Dom taking power or putting his foot down. I would lose respect for my Dom if he didn't put his foot down when I am in the wrong. There is also nothing wrong with being forced to perform orally (it's quite hot actually, but that's a different thread ). If I were in an argument with him and he made it clear he had enough, I would comply with his wishes immediatly. BUT..if the argument was the result of his breaking our agreement, let's use infidelity as an example in my relationship, then why should I be expected to obey when HE was clearly in the wrong? For those in the sort of relationship where it still wouldn't matter..more power to them I say. In my relationship, however, both parties are bound to our defined agreements. If either party willfully violates that agreement, then the other has no obligation until the issue is resolved. Maybe the discussion will need to take place at a later time when both parties have calmed down, but I ain't sucking any dick in the meantime. Of course, as has been said a hundred times in this thread, it all depends on the relationship.

 

[FurryFury]

What if the argument is serious because you won't shut up.

Never would that happen. I hate such arguments. I'm likely to state my case at most three times. Then I typically say, okay, we are not going to agree or see eye to eye. I don't wish to continue this circular augment. I'm done here.
Not very submissive sounding? Oh well. LOL.

Fury

 

[JMohegan]

See now that would be more damaging to me. Or like some one else said they just walk out and away from the other person, that would totally distroy me. It would play with my abandonment issues and it would only take a few times before I was not a fraction of the person I once was.

I'd rather something unexpected happend, like in RJ's example. It would take me totally by surprize and away from the current situation.

But then I'm not the type of person to get that angry anyway, and I'm not really argumentitive either. I would have been more likely to stop when he said the first time than to continue. I can only remember one time when I ever got that angry, and I was actually the one that kept insisting we continued the conversation later. He got violent with me, which was something that was not apart of our relationship and I ended up removing myself by means of locking myself in the bathroom and him on the other side trying to break the door down.

That was it, the next day I moved in with my mom. I refuse to live my life where I'm afraid of some one on that level. But I was never the same after that event. It totally broke my trust that he would always take care of me and my needs as well as his own, and it took a long time for me to be able to trust some one else.

Hi, Wench.

Some people thrive on volatility. Know what I mean? I'm not one of them, but these people do exist and there's nothing wrong with that personality type.

One thing RJ wrote that I really could not relate to was the comment, "hell half the time you all do things which deserve it anyways and you know its true."

That's actually not a fair description of the women I choose as partners. But that doesn't mean they are more or less submissive. It just means they have different personalities.

For me, one characteristic of a truly wonderful relationship is one in which I am rarely angry, and almost never to the point I described above.

However, no two people will ever agree on all points and all human beings have times when they get on each other's nerves. I understand your point about what's damaging, and why, but I also agree with RJ's point that it is not always the submissive's place to be able to say "I'd rather....".

If the Dom is angry and wants to "make it sting," I believe it is his right to do so. Of course, his behavior is also bound by the mental & emotional limits of his partner. And unless he doesn't mind losing her, he will take care not to go too far.

 

[Netzach]

Hi, Wench.

Some people thrive on volatility. Know what I mean? I'm not one of them, but these people do exist and there's nothing wrong with that personality type.

One thing RJ wrote that I really could not relate to was the comment, "hell half the time you all do things which deserve it anyways and you know its true."

That's actually not a fair description of the women I choose as partners. But that doesn't mean they are more or less submissive. It just means they have different personalities.

For me, one characteristic of a truly wonderful relationship is one in which I am rarely angry, and almost never to the point I described above.

However, no two people will ever agree on all points and all human beings have times when they get on each other's nerves. I understand your point about what's damaging, and why, but I also agree with RJ's point that it is not always the submissive's place to be able to say "I'd rather....".

If the Dom is angry and wants to "make it sting," I believe it is his right to do so. Of course, his behavior is also bound by the mental & emotional limits of his partner. And unless he doesn't mind losing her, he will take care not to go too far.

The things M and H do that drive me *totally batshit* both stem from things not in their control. Or in my control. In one case: ADHD and its associated coping behaviors and in the other case lifelong abandonment issues and depression.

Removing myself from the situation more often comes in the form of taking a long deep breath and reminding myself that I'm not dealing with totally functional puppies I myself am not the most functional puppy, and remembering to try try TRY to be kind. It doesn't mean I will tolerate any and all bullshit, but I will try to come up with apropriate *workarounds* so I can get what I want without having to get a headache.

Do I get angry? Yes. I'm more inclined to be the asshole in the wrong trying to drive home the last point, so curbing that on my part is really the key thing. Honestly there are more problems in my relationships attributable to me getting really mad than other people, it's my ongoing struggle. I come from a place where, if you're not yelling, you may as well not talk, because no one cares.