The Darkness

[FluteMaster]

Such is the danger of using smilies - they may not come across with the meaning we intended! Feel free to use these at any time - they've got a greater range of expression than the built-in ones here at Lit.

Umm Thanks....I'm stunned by the variety. (Oh my, it will take me even longer now to accessorize my messages. )

 

[cati]

J. Mohegan as usual I love reading your posts. I just wanted to add in agreement that it is always wise to seek the advice of one's physician, no matter what the circumstances.

Flute Master, I sense that you know of what you speak...sweet!

A quick thread high-jack:

I now understand why my Doc. kinda chuckled when I told him that I wanted my thyroid tested, "Why on earth would you think you have a thyroid disorder",
I had gone to a prompt care clinic and insisted on being tested, before I went to my family Doc. The Physican in attendence had looked at me kinda "funny", but dammit I KNEW what I was talking about!

That was a few months after having an x-ray on my lungs, a stool sampling, blood work etc. for breathing problems, gallbladder, stomach ulcers (not at the same time mind you). While I had 9/10 symptoms of whatever I thought I was going to die from, the tests/xrays revealed nothing special. Oh and the small lumps in my breasts- nothing short of breast cancer! Yeah so I had a couple of lumps, what woman doesn't?
For many years I have thought of changing Doctors, since my guy just wasn't listening to me, that he's just another smart assed, uncaring, know-it-all practioner and that whatever tests I recently had done "must" be wrong and that they just weren't picking up the "right" images. Oops, my apologies, I failed to mention Sjogrens Syndrome (an immune disorder causing dry eyes, dry mouth, dry mucous membranes. I mean all this dryness couldn't be a result of my antidepressant medication, or age or hormones...that would be just be too easy. It always has to be much worse in my mind.
I recently decided to re-read, or "read and digest" a book that I had bought about ten years ago called "Overcoming Anxiety" - From Short Term Fixes to Long Term Recovery" by Reneau Z. Peurifoy.
Funny, how it seems to make more sense to me now.

From searching the web and reading, reading and reading (a better word would be obsessing) I recently discovered that I suffer from an "Avoidant Personality Disorder" or it's lesser form called "avoidant personality style" and not so much social phobia as I once suspected. I'm sure I've mentioned it in earlier posts that I've been taking Zoloft for about 8 years or so for anxiety, depression, and OCD.
It may be a time to change meds...shrugs, but then again Zoloft has worked exceptionally well...except for the delayed orgasm part *winks.

To make a long story short, AvPD seems to overlap other anxiety related illnesses as well. The most common syndromes seen with AvPD include agoraphobia, social phobia, generalized anxiety disorder, dysthemia (an emotion of depression) major depressive disorder (with all the signs and symptoms) HYPOCHRONDRIASIS, conversion disorder, disassiociative disorder and schizophrenia.
How embarrassing I'm a hypochondriac..acckk!

More symptoms of AvPD are social shyness and anxiety, coupled with feelings of inadequacy, some sort of physical deformity and social dysfunction, with hypersensitivity to criticism, real or imagined.
Individuals often avoid interpersonal contact because they dread embarrassment, rejection and disapproval. "They"see themselves as unattractive, inferior or inadequate. Their speech style may be reactive, non-spntaneous, extremely brief, intermiddent or hesitant (that's me).
Some avoidants may develop body dysmorphic disorders as well as eating disorders.

(We) excessively monitor our own internal reactions when we are involved in social interactions. Our feelings are mostly subjective, meaning others may not pick up what is going with our minds and bodies. For me too much social interaction is energy draining, I often withdraw for a whole slew of different reasons.

AvPD's are so pre-occupied with monitoring themselves and others with whom they are interacting, that fluent speech becomes almost impossible. They appear to have fragmented thought sequences and their conversation is laced with confusing digressions. We are timid and uneasy around people we don't know well. We have a problem with remembering peoples names...at least the first time introduced. I know I always have to ask people for their names...often two or three times, depending on how focused I am.

I've said enough already I know, but if anyone is interested in learning more about AvPD, there is a wealth of information available on the web *s.

I have been feeling more anxious than usual these days/weeks and hence the web search. It was really depressing to find a label to describe my "illness" It's like knowing for years (all my life) that something is wrong, but you can't quite put your finger on it. Discovering that I have AvPD is depressing...bigtime, although there is a great sense of relief knowing that there are others out there just like me and there are ways to work through it...with help.
I have called the Mental Health people to look for a support group, cause I feel I really need one at this stage. The book "Overcoming Anxiety" will be of some help, but I know it's not going to be enough. I'm feeling kinda lost right now,
(but I'll get over it)

Cripes...how many times have I mentioned the word depressing? ..reaches for the edit button, but thinks better of it.

Since people have been sharing I thought I'd do the same.

Where's that banana icon when you need it?

 

[lil_slave_rose]

really good advice and great support from everyone. i'm not speaking for Master, but i want to say for myself, thank you all for all of your kind words of encouragement and support for Master. We talked ALOT last night and got to the heart of the problem and things seem to be a little better for Him now. He's just not used to being able to come to someone when He's hurting. *smiles* he told me this morning that i am His angel i asked what i did to deserve that title as that is NOT something He normal calls me *grins* and He said for last night, letting Him talk and cry on my shoulder, *shrugs* it's what partners do..ya know? i don't know how many times i've leaned on Him in those 'dark' moments, or how many times i've pulled away from Him, and He's still right there, it was the least i could do. course He also used the words "His Demon" right after He said i was His angel wonders what He means by that

but anyway, thanks to everyone!

 

[MasterPhoenix]

Sorry RJ and liberated slave, but I do not agree that major depression is a result of lack of self confidence. This type of judgement/analogy is what I am referring to when I say people who have not been there usually have no clue what it is like or what it is about, and often the judgements and statements they make in ignorance only increase the difficulty for the person involved. It not only attempts to minimise the issue, but also in part puts blame on the sufferer for the very real medically based (as in through no choice or action of their own) condition with lifelong consequences. I tend to put it in the realm of those who think they know what they are talking about when they tell a depressed person they just need to get a grip, or stop feeling sorry for themselves, or pull their socks up and just get on with it....they just haven't got a clue what depression is. Sheesh if it were as easy as increasing self confidence, wouldn't that be lovely?!!

Catalina

A bright beautiful blue skied feels like spring morning, and I do feel a bit better.

I am going to split the difference here, and say that I do believe that the depression is not caused by a loss of self confidence, but in my case when it it is creeping up on me it steals my hard-won self confidence.

I must remember that when it comes, it will also pass, and I have an extremely wonderful life partner who can serve me by being there for me. (A nice way to be able to think of leaning on her and crying my eyes out whilst keeping somewhat of a Ds feel to it... LOL)

 

[MasterPhoenix]

however, if this is a demon from the past still haunting you - seems more than just a black mood? how did you slay this demon before?

sounds like situational depression... obviously brought on by the stress. for me, saying things out loud is the first step... so hopefully posting it here has helped you Master Phoenix. but don't discount seeking professional help if things get any darker....

There is much darkness in my past, as it once controlled me completely, and robbed me of much of the joys of life for many years.

 

[MasterPhoenix]

MP,

I think you know me well enough to know that what I wrote in my first response was heartfelt. To clarify, all I meant by what I said is ....do not let the past cast doubts and fears upon the solid foundations that you have laid out with rose. Acknowledge what happen in the past, and then acknowledge that you have done what it takes to get to where you are now. Believe in yourself and believe in rose.

You and I have communicated enough that I did know that your response was indeed heartfelt.

And I do thank you for your response, my friend.

 

[MasterPhoenix]

MP, this is only my opinion, so take it as such. I've never suffered from depression as my "only" problem; it's always just been a sort of spin-off from my social anxiety. I've always been one to fight it as hard as I can when I feel it coming on, and cat's right--it does seem to make it worse. As bad as I have it, though, my Master has it far worse. His fits of depression will come out of nowhere and descend for days or weeks or however long until they finally recede. It's funny that you describe the way you feel as The Darkness because that's always how I've labeled both our demons. We both struggle hard with them, and it's probably just making matters worse.

There is, however, one huge difference between us. (I was actually thinking this to myself last night.) I admit that there's a darkness inside of me, that there's a place in my soul that I don't like to think about because it scares me. He, on the other hand, tries his best to act "like everyone else" (although "everyone else" probably has a similar kind of problem) and refuses to admit that his dark place exists. Sometimes I wonder if him not letting himself get too close to me has something to do with this.

Anyway, what I'm trying to say is that I don't think it's a coincidence that he suffers more than I do since he refuses to admit that the dark place is there. Seems to me then that you admitting that you do have that inside you is half the battle.

It is something I have long struggled with, and my very name Phoenix was taken as I was able to turn the tide during a particularrly hellish period.

I have always admitted it was there below the surface, but I can normally keep it away. I am not sure why or how it hit me so hard lately, but it did and after a LONG talk with my rose last night, I do feel like it is lifting.

Thank you for your thoughts

 

[MasterPhoenix]

Funny how those of us with clinical depression seem to give it a name. Mine is known as the Monster. Mostly he lives locked in a cupboard but every now & then he manages to get a claw around the door & give me a scratch.

I've lived with the Monster for over 30 years. It's not sadness or a reaction to past problems or hurts. It's not fear or lack of self confidence or even a personality trait. It's a living, breathing, huge all smothering black Monster & all the therapy in the world wouldn't make it go away. Sorry, but the Monster couldn't care less if you talk about it.

I have never understood the oft stated aversion to the very good medications now available to control this beast. Sure they get abused & you need to find the right one for your breed of Monster, but they don't prevent or cure all the other ups & downs of living. If you have other problems, they won't take those away either.

When I was first diagnosed, the anti depressants had really horrible side affects, but you know what? even they were better than having the Monster loose in my life. These days it's relatively easy to find one which will suit you & won't impact on the rest of your life.

I lose patience with those who go on & on about it, but refuse for whatever reason, to seek the correct treatment. In most cases like that & with the people I've met who do this, they have a specific problem, have read about Monster symptoms & try to combine the 2 for sympathy, all the while bleating about how strong they are being by fighting it without meds. What they don't get & can't be explained to them is that the Monster robs you of the will & the means to fight. They don't have depression, they have a problem or they are sad about something specific.

We've all heard the debate (CSI & Law & Order LOL) about mad v bad. This phenomenum is similar - mad v sad. I'm not saying mad in a derogatory sense either, being in that particular boat myself. It's just a very simple way of quick explanation & differentiation.

I did do a stint on meds many years back, and that is where my aversion comes from.

I do like your description as a Monster... it makes for a vivid image of how it works.

 

[MasterPhoenix]

I have to disagree with those who keep saying you can't talk yourself out of depression. Yes, you can. I've lived with depression and anxiety disorder for well over 20 years. I was medicated for about half that time. Mind over matter can work, but it takes work.

MP, I'm with the people here who have suggested that your upcoming plans with Rose could be the cause of this. One of the things I struggle with is sort of a fear of success. There are times in my life when I have sabotaged something because I was where you are right now. And all of my doubts and fears crept to the surface overwhelming me. So I ended up doing something stupid to sabotage the good thing that was happening. .

I do think that may have a lot to do with it right there....

 

[MasterPhoenix]

first of all i want to say to P, why oh why Did You not come to me about this??? i found this thread and was like 'wtf?' i'm sure we'll talk about this when You get home from work.

I thought I did a better job of getting it out the other day baby... and we did talk about it last night, and of course you are awesome.

 

[MasterPhoenix]

MP dear, everybody's already given you all the advice I would have. All I can say is that you're not alone, even if you feel like it. You're not a bad person, and you're not going to be like this forever. The clouds may be gray but there's a blue sky up there behind them. If you feel unable to seek help, let others help you - rose is clearly ready, willing, and able to be there for you. And come talk to us anytime - don't worry about interpersonal squabbling that may turn up on threads, because we all want the best for you. That said, PM me anytime if you want to talk in private with an outside party.

Thanks sweetie

 

[MasterPhoenix]

I deal with the med issue every day. It can be daunting at times but also a necessary evil as well. You have recognized the stress which we know can exacerbate depressions or other unbalanced mental processes.

The meds can be used for short-term therapy. Once you have regained a balance they can be discarded. You might want to reconsider and complete what you know has worked in the past for you.

Which is more important to you...your writing or your mental stability? Think on it. This is only my humble opinion garnished with 15 years of mental health training as a professional.

As someone who is working towards a career in the written arts, I can't have mental stability without my writing. They are not exclusive of one another.

 

[MasterPhoenix]

I just wanted to thank everyone who responded on this thread. Even if I did not respond directly to your post, I read it and appreaciate the thoughts behind it.

to all of you for being friends.

 

[callinectes]

Such is the danger of using smilies - they may not come across with the meaning we intended! Feel free to use these at any time - they've got a greater range of expression than the built-in ones here at Lit.

I ma dork..how do you actually insert the images in posts?

 

[MasterPhoenix]

Copy the link of the image you wish to imbed in the post.

Click on hte little yellow square above the text field in the post writing box.

Past the link in the box that pops up.

click OK

You will see http://www.example.com/example.jpg [/ img] in your entry field. with example replaced by the link you inserted.

Then the image will appear in your post.

Hope that helps.
MP

 

[wynnie]

Awww.. my beloved friend.... P, I have not been on lately to see this thread so I am belatedly responding. I have read what everyone said... *shrugs* I think depression for everyone is different. While I have never suffered from clinical depression a family member does. I fully acknowledge that unless you have personally gone throught it... you dont really know what it is like. I have had bouts of depression but they are usually mild. that being said I have been able to "talk" myself out of them...(MILD DEPRESSION ...). Other times, when I cant "talk" it out, i just let it run through me until i can take a deep breath of fresh air. I know i am not saying anything new. smiles..

I guess what I am really saying is I am here for you.... I will help hold you above the waves... send down a rope... bring you a flashlight... I am your friend...therefore I will help where I can. smiles.... HUGS HUGS HUGS HUGS HUGS.

 

[MasterPhoenix]

Awww.. my beloved friend.... P, I have not been on lately to see this thread so I am belatedly responding. I have read what everyone said... *shrugs* I think depression for everyone is different. While I have never suffered from clinical depression a family member does. I fully acknowledge that unless you have personally gone throught it... you dont really know what it is like. I have had bouts of depression but they are usually mild. that being said I have been able to "talk" myself out of them...(MILD DEPRESSION ...). Other times, when I cant "talk" it out, i just let it run through me until i can take a deep breath of fresh air. I know i am not saying anything new. smiles..

I guess what I am really saying is I am here for you.... I will help hold you above the waves... send down a rope... bring you a flashlight... I am your friend...therefore I will help where I can. smiles.... HUGS HUGS HUGS HUGS HUGS.

Thanks sweetie.... a good friend to rose & I you are.

 

[FluteMaster]

J. Mohegan as usual I love reading your posts. I just wanted to add in agreement that it is always wise to seek the advice of one's physician, no matter what the circumstances.

Flute Master, I sense that you know of what you speak...sweet!

A quick thread high-jack:

I now understand why my Doc. kinda chuckled when I told him that I wanted my thyroid tested, "Why on earth would you think you have a thyroid disorder",
I had gone to a prompt care clinic and insisted on being tested, before I went to my family Doc. The Physican in attendence had looked at me kinda "funny", but dammit I KNEW what I was talking about!

That was a few months after having an x-ray on my lungs, a stool sampling, blood work etc. for breathing problems, gallbladder, stomach ulcers (not at the same time mind you). While I had 9/10 symptoms of whatever I thought I was going to die from, the tests/xrays revealed nothing special. Oh and the small lumps in my breasts- nothing short of breast cancer! Yeah so I had a couple of lumps, what woman doesn't?
For many years I have thought of changing Doctors, since my guy just wasn't listening to me, that he's just another smart assed, uncaring, know-it-all practioner and that whatever tests I recently had done "must" be wrong and that they just weren't picking up the "right" images. Oops, my apologies, I failed to mention Sjogrens Syndrome (an immune disorder causing dry eyes, dry mouth, dry mucous membranes. I mean all this dryness couldn't be a result of my antidepressant medication, or age or hormones...that would be just be too easy. It always has to be much worse in my mind.
I recently decided to re-read, or "read and digest" a book that I had bought about ten years ago called "Overcoming Anxiety" - From Short Term Fixes to Long Term Recovery" by Reneau Z. Peurifoy.
Funny, how it seems to make more sense to me now.

From searching the web and reading, reading and reading (a better word would be obsessing) I recently discovered that I suffer from an "Avoidant Personality Disorder" or it's lesser form called "avoidant personality style" and not so much social phobia as I once suspected. I'm sure I've mentioned it in earlier posts that I've been taking Zoloft for about 8 years or so for anxiety, depression, and OCD.
It may be a time to change meds...shrugs, but then again Zoloft has worked exceptionally well...except for the delayed orgasm part *winks.

To make a long story short, AvPD seems to overlap other anxiety related illnesses as well. The most common syndromes seen with AvPD include agoraphobia, social phobia, generalized anxiety disorder, dysthemia (an emotion of depression) major depressive disorder (with all the signs and symptoms) HYPOCHRONDRIASIS, conversion disorder, disassiociative disorder and schizophrenia.
How embarrassing I'm a hypochondriac..acckk!

More symptoms of AvPD are social shyness and anxiety, coupled with feelings of inadequacy, some sort of physical deformity and social dysfunction, with hypersensitivity to criticism, real or imagined.
Individuals often avoid interpersonal contact because they dread embarrassment, rejection and disapproval. "They"see themselves as unattractive, inferior or inadequate. Their speech style may be reactive, non-spntaneous, extremely brief, intermiddent or hesitant (that's me).
Some avoidants may develop body dysmorphic disorders as well as eating disorders.

(We) excessively monitor our own internal reactions when we are involved in social interactions. Our feelings are mostly subjective, meaning others may not pick up what is going with our minds and bodies. For me too much social interaction is energy draining, I often withdraw for a whole slew of different reasons.

AvPD's are so pre-occupied with monitoring themselves and others with whom they are interacting, that fluent speech becomes almost impossible. They appear to have fragmented thought sequences and their conversation is laced with confusing digressions. We are timid and uneasy around people we don't know well. We have a problem with remembering peoples names...at least the first time introduced. I know I always have to ask people for their names...often two or three times, depending on how focused I am.

I've said enough already I know, but if anyone is interested in learning more about AvPD, there is a wealth of information available on the web *s.

I have been feeling more anxious than usual these days/weeks and hence the web search. It was really depressing to find a label to describe my "illness" It's like knowing for years (all my life) that something is wrong, but you can't quite put your finger on it. Discovering that I have AvPD is depressing...bigtime, although there is a great sense of relief knowing that there are others out there just like me and there are ways to work through it...with help.
I have called the Mental Health people to look for a support group, cause I feel I really need one at this stage. The book "Overcoming Anxiety" will be of some help, but I know it's not going to be enough. I'm feeling kinda lost right now,
(but I'll get over it)

Cripes...how many times have I mentioned the word depressing? ..reaches for the edit button, but thinks better of it.

Since people have been sharing I thought I'd do the same.

Where's that banana icon when you need it?

Hi Cati,

Yes, you are right, my understanding comes from being a sufferer (though not as badly as a lot of others thank goodnesss), and as someone who takes a keen pastoral interest in others.

However, I wanted to say that your post was amazing and I felt honoured that you shared it with us. I recognised myself in places, (self monitoring, finding interaction difficult at times etc), but to have all those sympoms and the physical effects too sounds overwhelming.

Thank you for your openness, and if I can help you on this path, I would love to do what I can.

(Thank goodnes for bananas!!)

 

[cati]

Thanks FluteMaster for your kind post.

I must admit that it may not be wise to self-diagnose, but its so much easier to pour through books then talk face to face and hope that someone can empathize and sort through the muck when you can't or don't know how to do it yourself.
Happily my symptoms, much like many others here, come and go depending on the weather. As they say the first step to recovery is knowing what once was and what now is. Having a typical dysfunctinal family of course adds more colour to the picture, hence my mentioning the environmental and genetic influences on one's emotional "dis-ease". I'm sure many others can relate to this as well. Having a recent relationship change has caused certain "past" issues to arise. How I'm going to address them this time around remains to be seen.
I also seem to lack some sort of spirituality in my life, and so have decided to study Japanese Zen Buddhism...smiles.

regards cati...

 

[FluteMaster]

Thanks FluteMaster for your kind post.

I must admit that it may not be wise to self-diagnose, but its so much easier to pour through books then talk face to face and hope that someone can empathize and sort through the muck when you can't or don't know how to do it yourself.
Happily my symptoms, much like many others here, come and go depending on the weather. As they say the first step to recovery is knowing what once was and what now is. Having a typical dysfunctinal family of course adds more colour to the picture, hence my mentioning the environmental and genetic influences on one's emotional "dis-ease". I'm sure many others can relate to this as well. Having a recent relationship change has caused certain "past" issues to arise. How I'm going to address them this time around remains to be seen.
I also seem to lack some sort of spirituality in my life, and so have decided to study Japanese Zen Buddhism...smiles.

regards cati...

Mmmm - meditating on Koans - a good way to achieve enlightenment and achieve a new perspective on life.

Btw, I can recommend "The Tao of Pooh and the Te of Piglet". Winnie the Pooh as a guide to Tao.

And re the dysfunctional family - tell me about it.!!

I see there is a lot going on in your life -and I can certainly relate to that. I am glad to see that you are taking time out to focus on some of your core needs. It seems to me that you have a lot going for you. Do PM me if you think I can help in any way.

 

[cati]

Btw, I can recommend "The Tao of Pooh and the Te of Piglet". Winnie the Pooh as a guide to Tao.


Seriously? Are they illustrated in the typical Milne style?

 

[FluteMaster]

Btw, I can recommend "The Tao of Pooh and the Te of Piglet". Winnie the Pooh as a guide to Tao.


Seriously? Are they illustrated in the typical Milne style?

They have some of the illustrations which we know and love from the books. The book itself is by Benjamin Hoff

Amazon Link

The above link is to a search on Amazon. It's really funny, in a gentle way, but also very instructive. I'm just reading it for the second time.

FM

 

[cati]

Thanks for the link. I will look for the book in our stores here.

 

[liberatedslave]

Exactly, which is different to saying it is the cause....it is a possible side effect, 2 different things entirely. And no, my post was not mean spirited, but if that is how you want to take it, that is your choice. I speak from my own personal experience from childhood to middle age, experience with other family members throughout my whole life, experience as being the number one person working with professionals with my son's own situation (and as a side note, according to them I have been doing exceptionally well before their input and have even helped them learn some things about depression and helped them work with my son in a positive way far quicker than they could have done without my input), and experience as a trained professional working with others with serious depression, suicidal and mental health issues...so no, I am not talking through my hat, nor am I talking about something I know nothing about and have not experienced first hand and fought every day of my life, not just once every few weeks/months.

Catalina

Well, I take all that on board. I was offended by your last post because it was abrupt with no effort at politeness. Also because you inferred that I could not have 'been there' which I thought was presumptious and patronizing.

That said, I do enjoy your posts most of the time and I have no desire to fall out with anybody over a few lines of text. The trouble with posting on forums is that nuance of expression can be difficult to decipher.

 

[liberatedslave]

As someone who is working towards a career in the written arts, I can't have mental stability without my writing. They are not exclusive of one another.

I hear that MP and as an aspiring author and screenwriter I know exactly how you feel.

I had depression a few years back following various life-events and health problems. I used to write all the time. I have books and books of poetry, stories or even just convoluted chains of thought. Writing was therapy for me. The act of writing down my feelings, of articulating them somewhere separate from me, would purge an awful lot of my anxiety and grief. I would argue that it did more for my inner equilibrium at the time than talking to another person did or indeed could have done.

When I got really, clinically depressed I discovered that I couldn't write anything. I had no motivation and when I did try the words simply wouldn't come. I couldn't articulate how I felt about anything and that was very very scary for me. I went through the motions for a while but simply became detached from everything. It was as though my inability to describe and vocalize things rendered my life experiences tasteless (ok so maybe I went a bit crazy).

The long and short of it is that it took me three years of medication and free therapy from a good friend before I found my inner narrator again. This was after I found the motivation to start examining myself and take steps towards the person I wanted to be. Now I still have writing as therapy and my scribblings can get more than slightly psychotic on occasion but at least I can recognise that and take from it the inner peace and the knowledge of myself that it affords. I'm happier now than I think I've ever been but it's taken quite a while to get here.

I sometimes think of my Sir that he'll find me out as a fraud, see the mess that's sitting in a pile in the back of my head. I have to remind myself that I really am not that person anymore and the choice to remain the person I've become is mine alone. Everything is a choice in the end, even your next breath. If you break it down to that level and only cope with steps that small, you'll be surprised how far along your journey you'll get before you even know it.

Wow, that was a bit of a ramble. Haven't reviewed the whole thread so apoligies if it's a little off-topic.

Sending you a big {{{{{HUG}}}}}