The Darkness

[liberatedslave]

Goodmorning Cat Oh...and fuck you.

Seconded. Catalina's post was meanspirited & possibly even more narrow minded & simplistic than my own.

You're entitled to your opinion cat, but don't sit there & tell me where i have & haven't been. Depression isn't just about self confidence but where it has taken root, low self esteem creeps in, undermining a person's motivation to take positive action. I never claimed to be an expert & nor should you by the sound of it.

 

[BeachGurl2]

I have to disagree with those who keep saying you can't talk yourself out of depression. Yes, you can. I've lived with depression and anxiety disorder for well over 20 years. I was medicated for about half that time. Mind over matter can work, but it takes work.

MP, I'm with the people here who have suggested that your upcoming plans with Rose could be the cause of this. One of the things I struggle with is sort of a fear of success. There are times in my life when I have sabotaged something because I was where you are right now. And all of my doubts and fears crept to the surface overwhelming me. So I ended up doing something stupid to sabotage the good thing that was happening.

My family and friends have also learned that I allow myself to 'be' depressed for a few days at a time. I do what I call hibernating - don't leave the house, don't answer the phone or email, just lie around and be generally miserable and introspective. Those close to me have learned that I will work through this on my own and they know that it generally takes me about 3 days to work through. If I'm still ignoring them after that point, then someone comes knocking on my door and makes me take a shower and get outside in the sun. And I am better for it. But it took me years to get myself to this point. It took me years to deal with this without being medicated. And I will never be medicated for it again. Because I either lose all physical and emotional sensation with the antidepressants or I get addicted to the xanax for anxiety. I don't want either in my life ever again.

I agree with a lot that has been said about realizing where the thoughts and fears are coming from, acknowledging them, and then using some very strong self talk to allow yourself to move beyond them. You have pulled yourself out of that place of darkness and you are a better person for it. You are a stronger person now because you've overcome those feelings in the past. Medication isn't always the answer. Sometimes the answer lies inside of you.

 

[Netzach]

I have to disagree with those who keep saying you can't talk yourself out of depression. Yes, you can.

Yes YOU can. That's great for you.

 

[JMohegan]

The National Institute for Mental Health describes depression as a "brain disease". Many people on this thread wish Phoenix well, and so do I. But to me, that word "disease" indicates the need for professional advice and assistance.

According to NIMH:

"Depression is a treatable illness. The majority of people with depressive disorders improve when they receive appropriate treatment. The first step to getting treatment is a physical examination by a doctor to rule out other possible causes for the symptoms. Next the doctor should conduct a diagnostic evaluation for depression or refer the patient to a mental health professional for this evaluation. Depending on the type of depression that you may be suffering, various treatments are available, including medication and psychotherapy."

Source: the NIMH website, which also provides links to resources for getting help and services in your area.

 

[cati]

Master Phoenix wrote:
I have been red-lined with stress, and it has been playing hell on me lately.

I've read the posts here and no-one seems to be addressing this particular point.
From personal experience I have to say that depression is a result of many factors, environmental, biological and genetic factors just to name a few. If Master Phoenix is talking about an anxiety related depression than I think things get a little more complicated. This depression/anxiety in my opinion has been induced by stress, just as MP stated in his original post. Often depression can be described as repressed anger at someone or something in one's past. My suggestion to you Master Phoenix is to do some real self introspection, is there something going on in your life that seems reminiscent of past hurts/pain that has caused your emotional demons to rear their ugly heads once more? It is definitely a sign that all's not well in your personal or work relationships. You really have to ask your self what it is thats really bothering you, not just the superficial stuff, but dig deep and ask yourself why you are feeling stressed and what in your past has made you feel this way before...if anything. If it is the upcoming meeting with rose (which I doubt) then realize she is not that person who caused you such grief in your past. You are not going to react or feel the same way that you did back then.
If this "depression" is affecting your life and afraid it may affect your future relationships with people you care about, you really should talk to a professional. Sadly it isn't going to clear up over night, but can be worked through.
Taking medication may not be the answer but it does curb those awful feelings you are describing. Therapy is not something anyone should feel ashamed about,
and both together really should help. If one medication doesn't work there are many more available that can work for you. It doesn't have to be forever.
I hope I've been of some help. Remember this too shall pass, it's never "really"as bad as it seems.

 

[BeachGurl2]

Yes YOU can. That's great for you.

My point was that there are alternatives. The attitude on this thread has been that medication is the ONLY treatment, and that just isn't the case. People need to know that there are alternatives and that they should seek what works for THEM, not necessarily what everyone else says they should do. My position was to offer a balance to the meds-only approach. Not to suggest that my way was what he should do. I apologize if it came across that way.

 

[FurryFury]

I certainly never meant to indicate that I thought medication was the only coping method because I don't believe that at all.

Fury

 

[lil_slave_rose]

first of all i want to say to P, why oh why Did You not come to me about this??? i found this thread and was like 'wtf?' i'm sure we'll talk about this when You get home from work.

with that said, i've read all of the posts on this thread and while i'm not going to quote everyone, i will say that everyone has made some REALLY good suggestions and given good advice. RJ P did know what You meant in Your post, and when i talked to Him, i reiterated ALOT of what you said to Him. to those who say depression is something that you can just talk yourself out of, that may be true for YOU, but this is exactly what He's (P) has done and it's always right there on the surface until He can't fight it anymore, and it rears it's head the way it is now.

to P, i want to say, You do not always have to feel like 'the rock' sometimes i can be that rock too. yes You are the "Dom" but that word does not mean or imply that You are perfect and capable of overcoming everything by yourself. You know i have depression, so You know that i would know where You were coming from. i'm not on meds right now either, and You know i've been through the therapy and you also know it didn't work for me, none of it does. i've learned to 'deal' with the best i can, in doing so, You've learned to deal with mine as well, what i think You haven't done, is taken the time to learn how to deal with it for yourself, instead you fight it, and suppress it, but it's always laying right there under the surface,ready to rear it's head at any time. you can't keep fighting it forever. as cat said, i find when i accept it, and let it run it's course, is when it's easiest for me. no, it's not a fun place to be, it's a very dark and scary place but like you have been for me so many times, i'm here, to talk to you, to cry with you, to do whatever you need me to do to help you through it.

i understand that You think meds will not help or that they will hinder your writing ability, but i also agree with alot of others who say maybe you need to try different ones. i know the 'hell' of Your past, but i also know You have almost fallen into this pit of darkness more than once in the 3 years we've been together and every time you just suppress it or ignore it, and this is not the healthy way to deal with it. RJ made some REALLY great points in His post. you did pull yourself up out of that pit, but as he said and i agree, You ARE still that man as well as the one that you became after you climbed out. in my opinion, and knowing you as well as i do, i do not agree with others that say this is situational depression or caused by stress it is something within you that will not ever fully go away.

in closing this post because i'm not even sure i'm getting out what i'm truly trying to say, i will say that i'm here, lean on me as i've leaned on you millions of times, that doesn't make you weak. and know that i love You

 

[Etoile]

First of all, I want to say that RJ's first post in this thread was outstanding. Not everyone has to agree with everything he said, but he made a whole lot of really good points and I wish I could write with such clarity and honesty.

I don't think medication is being presented as the only option by any means. Catalina has said here and elsewhere that she prefers non-medication options for dealing with stress, anxiety, and depression. However for me, medication is a godsend, I would not be who I am without them, and more importantly I don't like who I am without them.

I agree with nowgirl about the possibility of finding a different combination of meds. Since I was diagnosed with major depression (aka clinical depression) in 1998, I have been on Celexa, Prozac, Paxil, Effexor, Serzone, and Wellbutrin. All were stopped and started for various reasons. But I didn't know what happy was until I found Wellbutrin...all the others made me feel "not sad anymore" but I wasn't ever happy. Everybody's chemical makeup is different and it might be worth experimenting to find the right one for you.

rose, I can understand your feelings of surprise at finding this thread. That's one of the issues that can arise, though, when two partners are on the same forum. Sometimes we want to share things with others, and it doesn't mean we don't want to share them with our partners...after all, we know they'll find the thread eventually, right? It just means that we are looking for outside views, from people who don't know us as well as our partners. It doesn't mean MP isn't trusting you or that you should feel hurt...it's just a need for a different kind of communication. And it's given you the opportunity to tell him what you did so we can all read it, and I think your post was really great as well.

MP dear, everybody's already given you all the advice I would have. All I can say is that you're not alone, even if you feel like it. You're not a bad person, and you're not going to be like this forever. The clouds may be gray but there's a blue sky up there behind them. If you feel unable to seek help, let others help you - rose is clearly ready, willing, and able to be there for you. And come talk to us anytime - don't worry about interpersonal squabbling that may turn up on threads, because we all want the best for you. That said, PM me anytime if you want to talk in private with an outside party.

 

[lil_slave_rose]

rose, I can understand your feelings of surprise at finding this thread. That's one of the issues that can arise, though, when two partners are on the same forum. Sometimes we want to share things with others, and it doesn't mean we don't want to share them with our partners...after all, we know they'll find the thread eventually, right? It just means that we are looking for outside views, from people who don't know us as well as our partners. It doesn't mean MP isn't trusting you or that you should feel hurt...it's just a need for a different kind of communication. And it's given you the opportunity to tell him what you did so we can all read it, and I think your post was really great as well.

i guess He thought he had tried to talk to me about it the other day *shrugs* He didn't tell me all of what he was feeling, and i'm not 'hurt' and i don't feel like he didn't 'trust' me, i just felt more like it was something i wished He had come to me with first, instead of me having to find the thread. i do realize that is how it goes when partners are posting on boards like this. i'm not mad or upset, was more just a wtf in the sense that i didn't know all of this was going on inside of Him. does that make sense?? lol . i know he trusts me, but i also know that He doesn't always feel like he should come to me with this stuff because He is the Dom and is supposed to be able to handle this all on His own.....and i just wanted Him to know..he doesn't have to.... you like everyone else, gave great advice

 

[incubus'_sub]

I, too, hibernate when the Monster pokes it's paw around the door & gives me an unexpected whack. I choose to withdraw from others, mainly to save them any hurt from irrational behaviour on my part. I go with the flow, don't fight it either & usually I can get back into the swing of life within 3 or 4 days, but that's WITH constant medication. Without access to the right meds I have no doubt that I would not have survived a couple of very severe attacks.

Sometimes it's best not to have well meaning partners & friends asking constantly what's wrong. Even if you KNOW what's wrong it's often difficult to articulate it rationally & without hurt to those partners & friends. I'm best watched from a distance. I'll talk when I feel able & maybe some of the trivial things on my mind will not feel even important enough to mention when I'm thinking clearly again.

Problems & stress don't trigger my attacks, in fact I usually cop a whack just when I've solved a problem or overcome a stressor.

I have always felt that the Monster lies in wait until I go "whew, glad that's over", then he strikes.

 

[Auraka6669]

I haven't read everyone's replies... so sorry if this has been hashed out already.

I'm in a vortex myself. I won't necessarily call it depression, because I don't really know what it is... but enough about that.

For what it's worth.......

We are who we are, because of who we were.

We as people will grow. But the only way to do that, is to embrace the past and come to peace with it. Learn from it... and REMEMBER IT. Lest we suffer more and repeat our mistakes. Seek our your demon. Shake his hand, embrace him. Then keep his bitch as in check, because you know how to do so now.

I hope this has helped. Now if only I could take my own advice...

 

[catalina_francisco]

Seconded. Catalina's post was meanspirited & possibly even more narrow minded & simplistic than my own.

You're entitled to your opinion cat, but don't sit there & tell me where i have & haven't been. Depression isn't just about self confidence but where it has taken root, low self esteem creeps in, undermining a person's motivation to take positive action. I never claimed to be an expert & nor should you by the sound of it.

Exactly, which is different to saying it is the cause....it is a possible side effect, 2 different things entirely. And no, my post was not mean spirited, but if that is how you want to take it, that is your choice. I speak from my own personal experience from childhood to middle age, experience with other family members throughout my whole life, experience as being the number one person working with professionals with my son's own situation (and as a side note, according to them I have been doing exceptionally well before their input and have even helped them learn some things about depression and helped them work with my son in a positive way far quicker than they could have done without my input), and experience as a trained professional working with others with serious depression, suicidal and mental health issues...so no, I am not talking through my hat, nor am I talking about something I know nothing about and have not experienced first hand and fought every day of my life, not just once every few weeks/months.

Catalina

 

[catalina_francisco]

My point was that there are alternatives. The attitude on this thread has been that medication is the ONLY treatment, and that just isn't the case. People need to know that there are alternatives and that they should seek what works for THEM, not necessarily what everyone else says they should do. My position was to offer a balance to the meds-only approach. Not to suggest that my way was what he should do. I apologize if it came across that way.

No need to apologise, though that wasn't my attitude as I said in my own and my son's situation, due to other health issues, medication does not work, and from what my son's psych was saying last week, there are many people who have chemically based depression who medication does not work for despite the general consensus it does...nor does self talk when depression really kicks in. Self talk can work wonders when it is a matter of general sadness, loss of confidence, disappointment, but chemically based depression will basically laugh in the face of mind over matter therapy used alone. I can occasionally talk my way backward from an oncoming episode, but not often and only when I catch it very early. My opinion and experience is that serious depression needs a combination of methods of dealing with it to begin to make a difference, and at times knowing which one method is going to be the most effective in that moment. For me the replacement I have found for medication has been a good flogging etc., which works to some level most times, but is not always best so once again takes a lot of self knowledge, trial and error, to get it right...not to mention patience on the part of F.

He has been a gem in many ways. I warned him before we got together about our depression issues, and he assured me he knew what he was facing from personal experience, but once he saw us both in our brand of depressive mode, he admitted it was nothing like what he was thinking of and far beyond anything he had seen before. Regardless, he hangs in there and does what is needed, supports us both when needed, and is just there when nothing else will make a difference. Like many, he wanted to be able to fix it, and initially as with many, he was upset and in some way hurt that he couldn't fix it. One of the worst things for someone in deep depression is having someone close feeling let down because they can't fix it, and having that expectation in the first place...it increases the pressure on the depressed person, and in turn increases the level and frequency of depression, usually accompanied with a new sense of guilt for bringing about this situation. F realised he couldn't perform miracles, and being the tower of strength he is, he was able to accept that and then begin to work with us in ways which at least gave us the freedom to work through the darker moments in the best ways for us, even if it doesn't cure us. He now has a very hands on active part in my son's treatment, talks with those working with him, learns from various sources, and lets him know he is there for him and cheering him on with every step forward he makes. It makes a huge difference.

Catalina

 

[Blushing Bottom]

I deal with the med issue every day. It can be daunting at times but also a necessary evil as well. You have recognized the stress which we know can exacerbate depressions or other unbalanced mental processes.

The meds can be used for short-term therapy. Once you have regained a balance they can be discarded. You might want to reconsider and complete what you know has worked in the past for you.

Which is more important to you...your writing or your mental stability? Think on it. This is only my humble opinion garnished with 15 years of mental health training as a professional.

Inside of me I carry a darkness from a previous life. Not a past life in the metaphysical Shirley MacLane New Age sense, but from a past section of this existence. Back from the time before I became the Phoenix, and my life was one big tangle of depression.



Lately, that darkness is haunting me again, and I am not sure why. It is if whatever lurks in that darkness is trying to pull me back in and take away everything I have become. Sometimes it tries to convince me I am not the Dom I think I am. It plays with my heart, and tries to invade and overrun my thoughts.

I thought I had long since slain this demon, but it lurks and hunts inside me. The protective layer has worn thin, but I will not succumb. I refuse to go back to the life I once knew.

I have been red-lined with stress, and it has been playing hell on me lately.

No way in hell am I going back on meds, I could not write whilst I was on them.

 

[catalina_francisco]

I, too, hibernate when the Monster pokes it's paw around the door & gives me an unexpected whack. I choose to withdraw from others, mainly to save them any hurt from irrational behaviour on my part. I go with the flow, don't fight it either & usually I can get back into the swing of life within 3 or 4 days, but that's WITH constant medication. Without access to the right meds I have no doubt that I would not have survived a couple of very severe attacks.

Sometimes it's best not to have well meaning partners & friends asking constantly what's wrong. Even if you KNOW what's wrong it's often difficult to articulate it rationally & without hurt to those partners & friends. I'm best watched from a distance. I'll talk when I feel able & maybe some of the trivial things on my mind will not feel even important enough to mention when I'm thinking clearly again.

Problems & stress don't trigger my attacks, in fact I usually cop a whack just when I've solved a problem or overcome a stressor.

I have always felt that the Monster lies in wait until I go "whew, glad that's over", then he strikes.

LOL, so true. I find mine comes both after solving an issue or getting past a stress, and when I have something on my mind...but then unfortuinately, it also comes for no logical reason at all. It does often hurt those near when they take it personally or want to be able to fix it and can't....F finally realised it was nothing to do with him in terms of why, where, when, and that as magical as he is, he can't fix it and doesn't need to take that responsibility. Since that realisation, he has become a great help with riding out the storm. He also knows he has the freedom to not ride it out with me at times as a means of protecting his own mental health. I have come to realise depression is part of the reason I have lived most of my life in self imposed isolation with minimum contact with others....it is a matter of energy and self preservation. There are times when I feel guilty for not maintaining contact with people who are friends or family, but it is just beyond what I can cope with and when I am in a depressive state which is more times than not, I cannot communicate with others, nor do I have the energy to try. If I try, it often results in people thinking I have a problem with them because I am not talking a lot or not saying anything of any significance, not connecting well. It's a bitch, but then others have much worse problems so I just move forward when I can.

Catalina

 

[catalina_francisco]

first of all i want to say to P, why oh why Did You not come to me about this??? i found this thread and was like 'wtf?' i'm sure we'll talk about this when You get home from work.

with that said, i've read all of the posts on this thread and while i'm not going to quote everyone, i will say that everyone has made some REALLY good suggestions and given good advice. RJ P did know what You meant in Your post, and when i talked to Him, i reiterated ALOT of what you said to Him. to those who say depression is something that you can just talk yourself out of, that may be true for YOU, but this is exactly what He's (P) has done and it's always right there on the surface until He can't fight it anymore, and it rears it's head the way it is now.

to P, i want to say, You do not always have to feel like 'the rock' sometimes i can be that rock too. yes You are the "Dom" but that word does not mean or imply that You are perfect and capable of overcoming everything by yourself. You know i have depression, so You know that i would know where You were coming from. i'm not on meds right now either, and You know i've been through the therapy and you also know it didn't work for me, none of it does. i've learned to 'deal' with the best i can, in doing so, You've learned to deal with mine as well, what i think You haven't done, is taken the time to learn how to deal with it for yourself, instead you fight it, and suppress it, but it's always laying right there under the surface,ready to rear it's head at any time. you can't keep fighting it forever. as cat said, i find when i accept it, and let it run it's course, is when it's easiest for me. no, it's not a fun place to be, it's a very dark and scary place but like you have been for me so many times, i'm here, to talk to you, to cry with you, to do whatever you need me to do to help you through it.

i understand that You think meds will not help or that they will hinder your writing ability, but i also agree with alot of others who say maybe you need to try different ones. i know the 'hell' of Your past, but i also know You have almost fallen into this pit of darkness more than once in the 3 years we've been together and every time you just suppress it or ignore it, and this is not the healthy way to deal with it. RJ made some REALLY great points in His post. you did pull yourself up out of that pit, but as he said and i agree, You ARE still that man as well as the one that you became after you climbed out. in my opinion, and knowing you as well as i do, i do not agree with others that say this is situational depression or caused by stress it is something within you that will not ever fully go away.

in closing this post because i'm not even sure i'm getting out what i'm truly trying to say, i will say that i'm here, lean on me as i've leaned on you millions of times, that doesn't make you weak. and know that i love You

Great post rose, and just another glimpse of what a great future you 2 have ahead of you. I can't answer for P, but perhaps part of why he didn't just come to you was fear/concern it could trigger your depression. I am guessing he also knew you had a few things on your plate right now and didn't want to add extra load to you for now. I know that is probably not going to concern you as it wouldn't me, but our men sometimes like to protect us from these things when they think there might be another way. For me, knowing F is there in whatever capacity I need him to be in the moment works wonders that nothing else can, if only to just lean on and forget about trying to move forward for a moment...sort of reminds me of a song from my teen years 'A Little Piece of Peace'.

Catalina

 

[FluteMaster]

Depression etc

Unfortunately, when one is talking abou depression, one is lumping together a thousand different medical states and giving it one name. As a result, we all have a take on it which will be borne out by our experiences, but may be completely contrary to our neighbour's.

The fundamental problem is that Depression is a condition defined by its symptoms, not by its causes. At its root, the cause is a chemical imbalance BUT that doesn't mean that it is treatable, or necessary to treat it, by chemical intervention.

To explain that a bit further, we know that stress affects the body and the operation of the mind. Using a drug to "cure" the depression will only mask the symptoms, but may do nothing to treat the cause - the factors that lead to the stress the person is suffering.

Of course, the stress someone is suffering may be the result of a deficit in coping skills because of past life experiences. In this case, the drugs may provide a chemical scaffold to minimise the depression, and while the sufferer is more self confident, they may be able to learn better coping strategies through a talking treatment like Cognitive Behavioural Therapy.

Then again, the chemical imbalance may be just what it is, a problem with something like seretonin release or re-uptake. In this case, the drugs are the best and only treatment. In some, we don't understand the cause of the depression enough to be able to use any of the existing drugs. (The number of chemicals involved in brain activity is staggering - what is remarkable is not that it goes wrong...but that it doesn't go wrong more quickly).

The best thing we can do is to provide an ear which doesn't impose our own solutions, but listens carefully. If we gain the trust, we may support them as they identify their own solution which works. Whatever the cause of the depression, a friend who just is, standing with the other person when the shit hits the fan, just affirming that other person, is often the best thing to be.

I hope this doesn't seem to be critical of anyone who has posted, but I sense at times that people are disagreeing with each other, withour realising that both parties are partly right in that they may have a solution, and partly wrong in that it may not be the solution.

 

[JMohegan]

The best thing we can do is to provide an ear which doesn't impose our own solutions, but listens carefully. If we gain the trust, we may support them as they identify their own solution which works. Whatever the cause of the depression, a friend who just is, standing with the other person when the shit hits the fan, just affirming that other person, is often the best thing to be.

Everything in your post made sense to me, including this part, but I would add a caveat here.

If a friend complains of persistent, debilitating stomach pain, the *best* thing I could do would be to encourage him to see a doctor for a professional diagnosis of the cause and solution. Same thing holds true for someone complaining of persistent, debilitating "darkness".

 

[FluteMaster]

Everything in your post made sense to me, including this part, but I would add a caveat here.

If a friend complains of persistent, debilitating stomach pain, the *best* thing I could do would be to encourage him to see a doctor for a professional diagnosis of the cause and solution. Same thing holds true for someone complaining of persistent, debilitating "darkness".

<smile>

I know what you mean, and if I had earned the trust, I would certainly put that suggestion forward. Mind you, I would say ithat there MAY only be a solution.

But sometimes, being a friend who stands by and supports EVEN WHEN they won't do that, can be a step along the path to some degree of healing. Maybe not always, but it is interesting how often lack of self worth complicates the issue. When we feel that the other person is there for us alone, and not because we follow their advice, they they find it easier to believe that we are genuine. (My own experience of depression is that it makes me very distrustful of other people's motives )

But thanks for your kind words anyway.

 

[JMohegan]

(My own experience of depression is that it makes me very distrustful of other people's motives )

But thanks for your kind words anyway.

The sarcastic expression in that second sentence certainly does give weight to the meaning of the first.

 

[FluteMaster]

The sarcastic expression in that second sentence certainly does give weight to the meaning of the first.

I'm sorry, and I apologise for any offence caused.

That sentence wasn't sarcastic, but a genuine thanks.

 

[JMohegan]

I'm sorry, and I apologise for any offence caused.

That sentence wasn't sarcastic, but a genuine thanks.

I was not offended, but appreciate the apology (and the thanks) nonetheless.

If you hold your cursor over the the rolling eyes guy in the group of smilies, it says: "Roll Eyes (sarcastic)". Hence the misunderstanding on my part.

 

[FluteMaster]

I was not offended, but appreciate the apology (and the thanks) nonetheless.

If you hold your cursor over the the rolling eyes guy in the group of smilies, it says: "Roll Eyes (sarcastic)". Hence the misunderstanding on my part.

LOL - that will teach me to look at the pretty pictures and to not read the words. I had just assumed it was a rueful expression, a sort of "ho hum" with a smile.

 

[Etoile]

Such is the danger of using smilies - they may not come across with the meaning we intended! Feel free to use these at any time - they've got a greater range of expression than the built-in ones here at Lit.