The Doormat Discussion

[Homburg]

In contrast, I only spoke to you because you're a Dominant and you have a dick. I hope you feel dirty.

Rotten contemptible cunt!

(Rawr.)

Agree with all of this.

And yeah, I also play with people I know or meet through someone I know.

I've been approached here and there by random party-goers, but it never really seemed to work out for whatever reason. The introduced friend of a friend, or people I'd met and talked with outside the party, always worked way better.

I am just weird like that, I guess.

 

[YourCaptor]

My question to others out there is this. Have you ever been around someone who is very submissive? If so, what vibes did you get from that person?

I was writing up a big list of all the types I have encountered.

But then I realized that they all have one thing in common... other then being submissive.

That is they always appear involved in some task. As if it takes all their attention even when small. And when they aren't doing anything, which is rare, they space. It's very calming actually... even when they are stressing out they are calming, it seems like all their stress is going in instead of out.

I supose simply said, they are very contained.

 

[Homburg]

My question to others out there is this. Have you ever been around someone who is very submissive? If so, what vibes did you get from that person?

Hmm, aside from sometimes getting that victim smell, my reaction is more often a matter of being aware of my own state. I am almost immediately comfortable with that person. Conversation is usually very easy. Depending on the environment, I may also feel innately protective towards the person, if we're talking about a female. Though, honestly, I know some very submissive men that I would likely feel protective towards.

I'll give a pretty extreme (for me) example. I'm an army brat, so I've spent my whole life around military types. I'm generally utterly comfortable with them. The only ones that are any different are the very serious special forces types. I tend to move slowly, talk low, and all the other deeply ingrained responses I've got to being around a large, potentially dangerous animal. Yes, I treat those types the same way I treat a cranky horse or a large dog. Anyway, a friend that I've mentioned a couple of times here is a former SEAL. He's the scariest old dude around, and I am utterly comfortable around him. Comfortable to the point where I don't mind him moving into my personal space, and have without hesitation allowed him to demonstrate a couple of implements on one of my girls.

So here's this scary guy what would normally have me watching my body language and speech, and I am willing to get physically chummy with him, and feel deep down seriously that I can trust him. And this is because he is a very submissive person. Sure, he can be fuck-all assertive when he needs to be, but that is not who he is. That is who the Navy trained him to be.

So the primary vibe is comfort. And I tend to get on like wildfire with such people in no small part because I am almost immediately comfortable with them.

It is probably more interesting because I am an empathically reactive person. Nervous people make me nervous, angry people get my dander up, happy people make me more cheerful. So many very submissive people are really nervous, especially around an unknown dominant, and it doesn't really have an effect on me. I could probably compare it to a horse I've never ridden, and the nervousness they sometimes feel before you earn sufficient trust, as opposed to a flighty, high strung, naturally nervous horse.

 

[ownedsubgal]

I was writing up a big list of all the types I have encountered.

But then I realized that they all have one thing in common... other then being submissive.

That is they always appear involved in some task. As if it takes all their attention even when small. And when they aren't doing anything, which is rare, they space. It's very calming actually... even when they are stressing out they are calming, it seems like all their stress is going in instead of out.

I supose simply said, they are very contained.

wow. this describes me with frightening accuracy. you're scary, YC.

 

[YourCaptor]

wow. this describes me with frightening accuracy. you're scary, YC.

It's true, I am scary.

Although in this thread many of you subs came out with your guns a blazing.

I think I even heard you OSG growl some place back there.

So much for the whole, doormats can't wipe their own ass theory.

 

[Adakgirl]

Ok this is may sound really strange but I just have to tell ya... during all the time that I have been posting in this forum, I have not perceived OSG nor Bunny nor ataxia as being doormats at all. As a matter of fact, I feel great inner strength and power coming from all three of these woman's posts. Doormats or not, to me, they all posses, express and even generate their own unique personal power and they do it all the time whether they know it or not.

{Before I continue, this once please spare me the guff about how this is "not real" "not real life". We are real people living real lives, discussing real topics about our lives here, we have real feelings and emotions. Communication is interaction with others and our interactions here are real}

OSG you may not be able make eye contact in out in public but you certainly look peoplke straight in the eye here and you do it with your words. You certainly are not a bit shy about going toe to toe with others and you put up a damned forcefull heated argument when you are debating a topic that you are passionate about.


BiBunny, you have the ability to chop off posters tongue with a few simple words if you happen to feel so inclined. You will put yourself out there bravely and say what is on your mind. That takes balls, that takes confidence and that takes power.
I am going to GUESS that when you were doing phone work you were quite adept at dominating men in that medium when the situation required.


and ataxia, you have survived some heavy duty shit in your life that would curl the hair of some Dominants I know. Also I have read you say that you tend to submit reluctantly, almost grudgingly, that you express your anger openly, almost viciously at times and have been known to throw some pretty mean tantrums.


None of these personality traits come from weakness or helplessness or lack of power in my opinion.
So if you are doormats, then you all are doormats in different ways and weaved with different colors. I don't believe it is possible to throw you all out on the same front porch and call you doormats. In fact I am starting to really dislike that term.

 

[Adakgirl]

Damn you! Your Captor you beat me to the point! grrrrrrrrrrrrr

 

[sadangel]

Ok this is may sound really strange but I just have to tell ya... during all the time that I have been posting in this forum, I have not perceived OSG nor Bunny nor ataxia as being doormats at all. As a matter of fact, I feel great inner strength and power coming from all three of these woman's posts. Doormats or not, to me, they all posses, express and even generate their own unique personal power and they do it all the time whether they know it or not.

{Before I continue, this once please spare me the guff about how this is "not real" "not real life". We are real people living real lives, discussing real topics about our lives here, we have real feelings and emotions. Communication is interaction with others and our interactions here are real}

OSG you may not be able make eye contact in out in public but you certainly look peoplke straight in the eye here and you do it with your words. You certainly are not a bit shy about going toe to toe with others and you put up a damned forcefull heated argument when you are debating a topic that you are passionate about.


BiBunny, you have the ability to chop off posters tongue with a few simple words if you happen to feel so inclined. You will put yourself out there bravely and say what is on your mind. That takes balls, that takes confidence and that takes power.
I am going to GUESS that when you were doing phone work you were quite adept at dominating men in that medium when the situation required.


and ataxia, you have survived some heavy duty shit in your life that would curl the hair of some Dominants I know. Also I have read you say that you tend to submit reluctantly, almost grudgingly, that you express your anger openly, almost viciously at times and have been known to throw some pretty mean tantrums.


None of these personality traits come from weakness or helplessness or lack of power in my opinion.
So if you are doormats, then you all are doormats in different ways and weaved with different colors. I don't believe it is possible to throw you all out on the same front porch and call you doormats. In fact I am starting to really dislike that term.

Quoted for truth. You said it very well. I don't know any of ya's that well, but I have to agree with what Adakgirl said.

This is for you all.

 

[Adakgirl]

But then I realized that they all have one thing in common... other then being submissive.

That is they always appear involved in some task. As if it takes all their attention even when small. And when they aren't doing anything, which is rare, they space. It's very calming actually... even when they are stressing out they are calming, it seems like all their stress is going in instead of out.

I supose simply said, they are very contained.

wow. this describes me with frightening accuracy. you're scary, YC.
ownedsubgal i

It also describes my great Aunt Cora. And correct me if I am wrong.. ataxia, is that not a close description of how many married female members of the Mormon church are as well? At least years ago they were.

These women stay busy, keep their heads down and their mouths shut, they do not argue with their husbands, make no decisions, they blend in, do not draw attention to themselves, do what they are supposed to do, when they are not working that are sitting spacing out on mending clothes, needle work, knitting, crocheting. They stay out of others peoples business, keep to their homes, family and church. But yet it is difficult to find a stronger breed of women.

 

[YourCaptor]

It also describes my great Aunt Cora. And correct me if I am wrong.. ataxia, is that not a close description of how many married female members of the Mormon church are as well? At least years ago they were.

These women stay busy, keep their heads down and their mouths shut, they do not argue with their husbands, make no decisions, they blend in, do not draw attention to themselves, do what they are supposed to do, when they are not working that are sitting spacing out on mending clothes, needle work, knitting, crocheting. They stay out of others peoples business, keep to their homes, family and church. But yet it is difficult to find a stronger breed of women.

That brought my mind directly to this song.

 

[SimonBrooke]

Rotten contemptible cunt!

OK, that reminds me of a truly dreadful joke. It may depend on British slang, so may not be in the least funny in your part of the world. And it's awful. Don't pretend I didn't warn you...

I used to be a necrophiliac, but some rotten cunt split on me.

Ok this is may sound really strange but I just have to tell ya... during all the time that I have been posting in this forum, I have not perceived OSG nor Bunny nor ataxia as being doormats at all...

and ataxia, you have survived some heavy duty shit in your life that would curl the hair of some Dominants I know.

Quoted for truth. I think, on the whole, 'dominant' may actually be the weaker of the two roles. We're dominants at least in part because we can dish it out but we can't take it.

 

[Lizzie_Borden]

OK, that reminds me of a truly dreadful joke. It may depend on British slang, so may not be in the least funny in your part of the world. And it's awful. Don't pretend I didn't warn you...

I used to be a necrophiliac, but some rotten cunt split on me.

Bwahahahahahahahahaha

 

[SimonBrooke]

do you think this is what makes doormat-types so unattractive to most Dominants? it denies them that heady ego rush of knowing someone is bending knee only to them and their awesome greatness?

I think there's truth in that! There's a big rush in having a sub who is a very competent, able, together, quite dominant person in public, and yet in private is yours to use.

Its not just femdom's. I'm submissive and yet would LOVE it if just once I was chatted up for reasons other than A and B. Unfortunately, so far, those seem to be my only good qualities.

Frankly, I've only been approached at parties and events for the same reason, unless the person knows me.

Hey, you two, I really find that hard to believe of either of you! I know Syd better, but I know her as cool, insightful, sardonic, witty, intelligent... and if that avatar is you, Syd (which I think it is) also beautiful. And intothewoods, from you too I get a strong feeling of an intelligent, warm, witty person; and if that avatar is you, intothewoods (which I don't think it is) also hot.

But frankly I could be tempted to go into the woods with either of you, and it definitely isn't because you just have an appropriate slot B for tab A. Men are shallow. I know this. I am one. But not all men are that shallow!

 

[ecstaticsub]

OK, that reminds me of a truly dreadful joke. It may depend on British slang, so may not be in the least funny in your part of the world. And it's awful. Don't pretend I didn't warn you...

I used to be a necrophiliac, but some rotten cunt split on me.



Quoted for truth. I think, on the whole, 'dominant' may actually be the weaker of the two roles. We're dominants at least in part because we can dish it out but we can't take it.

I don't agree at all. If I thought for a second my Dominant was weak I wouldn't be with him. However, I also don't think I am weaker than him. People on both sides of this dynamic tend to be very strong individuals.

 

[Lizzie_Borden]

I don't agree at all. If I thought for a second my Dominant was weak I wouldn't be with him. However, I also don't think I am weaker than him. People on both sides of this dynamic tend to be very strong individuals.

I tend to agree with that.

Everyone brings their own strengths to the table, they just happen to be different ones.

I have a good level of respect for the people I meet and interact with, but until they show to me that the possess a quality level of strength, then they don't really flip my switches, so to speak.

 

[intothewoods]

I think there's truth in that! There's a big rush in having a sub who is a very competent, able, together, quite dominant person in public, and yet in private is yours to use.





Hey, you two, I really find that hard to believe of either of you! I know Syd better, but I know her as cool, insightful, sardonic, witty, intelligent... and if that avatar is you, Syd (which I think it is) also beautiful. And intothewoods, from you too I get a strong feeling of an intelligent, warm, witty person; and if that avatar is you, intothewoods (which I don't think it is) also hot.

But frankly I could be tempted to go into the woods with either of you, and it definitely isn't because you just have an appropriate slot B for tab A. Men are shallow. I know this. I am one. But not all men are that shallow!

Ha, thanks, and no, that's not me in my AV. I was more trying to make a point about parties. Most people go to play, and it's sexual. I've had some interesting conversations with people at longer events though.

 

[JMohegan]

I think there's truth in that! There's a big rush in having a sub who is a very competent, able, together, quite dominant person in public, and yet in private is yours to use.

Plenty of people do seem to appreciate that dynamic.

Speaking for myself, though - in terms of general public interaction, I don't find bossy and controlling people appealing, regardless of gender. I've never had a friend who fit that description, and certainly never a lover. Even if the individual isn't trying to control me, I just generally find that persona obnoxious.

However, "competent, able, together" are big pluses in my book. Those descriptors may apply to very submissive personalities as much as anyone else, and I find that combination attractive.

do you think this is what makes doormat-types so unattractive to most Dominants? it denies them that heady ego rush of knowing someone is bending knee only to them and their awesome greatness?

I want to be desired and respected as an individual, not just a guy with the D ID. To the extent that an s defers to anyone and everyone, without exercising discretion, the absence of selectivity is a big negative for me, yes.

In addition - within the relationship itself, I get off on choice. This is also one big reason why I find the notion of M/s unappealing. I don't want someone who feels mentally unable to leave, and I don't want to pretend she can't leave. I thrive on knowing that she has the capacity to leave, but chooses not to.

A heady ego rush, sure, but also deeply satisfying. It's just a different way of perceiving power.

 

[eastern sun]

In addition - within the relationship itself, I get off on choice. This is also one big reason why I find the notion of M/s unappealing. I don't want someone who feels mentally unable to leave, and I don't want to pretend she can't leave. I thrive on knowing that she has the capacity to leave, but chooses not to.

An observation - I've been noticing an interesting dichotomy, in slaves who feel unable to leave their masters, but who always seem like they're at risk of leaving. Like osg, who will walk away with a total stranger because of her inability to say "no." Or Bunny, who at least appears to be pulling away, only to return.

My own slavery has a similar component, in that my husband gets off on my insatiable interest in other people, but wants to assert ownership rights and behavioral controls in order to keep me in line. Though I would never leave him, there's a constant threat that I might . . .

I doubt it's a defining factor in all M/s relationships, but it is interesting to observe.

 

[Homburg]

OK, that reminds me of a truly dreadful joke. It may depend on British slang, so may not be in the least funny in your part of the world. And it's awful. Don't pretend I didn't warn you...

I used to be a necrophiliac, but some rotten cunt split on me.

*snort*

Quoted for truth. I think, on the whole, 'dominant' may actually be the weaker of the two roles. We're dominants at least in part because we can dish it out but we can't take it.

I don't know that "weak" is the right word here, but I think I get what you are saying. As ES said, many of the people that sit on either side of that fence are bloody strong. But I do get the idea that many dominants can't take what they dish out. I've known some that were that way, and others that were tougher than leather. I'm not really sure how to quantify this particular impression.

Hey, you two, I really find that hard to believe of either of you! I know Syd better, but I know her as cool, insightful, sardonic, witty, intelligent... and if that avatar is you, Syd (which I think it is) also beautiful. And intothewoods, from you too I get a strong feeling of an intelligent, warm, witty person; and if that avatar is you, intothewoods (which I don't think it is) also hot.

I've hung out with both, and I'm also of the opinion that it is weird that someone would only be interested in physical attributes. I've had in depth, interesting, and enjoyable conversations with both ITW and Syd. Character is readily apparent in both ladies, and personality is obvious as well. Why would I not want to talk to an interesting woman, even if I might want to do bad things to her?

 

[ownedsubgal]

I want to be desired and respected as an individual, not just a guy with the D ID. To the extent that an s defers to anyone and everyone, without exercising discretion, the absence of selectivity is a big negative for me, yes.

In addition - within the relationship itself, I get off on choice. This is also one big reason why I find the notion of M/s unappealing. I don't want someone who feels mentally unable to leave, and I don't want to pretend she can't leave. I thrive on knowing that she has the capacity to leave, but chooses not to.

A heady ego rush, sure, but also deeply satisfying. It's just a different way of perceiving power.

the choice thing i can understand...many Dominants obviously feed off that energy of being eagerly wanted and joyfully surrendered to, and especially in the process of bringing a submissive to that state and maintaining that.

now as for being desired and respected as an individual, not simply a Dominant...that makes sense. but i wonder why the assumption is that simply because a submissive defers to an individual, that they are in any way showing respect for that individual, much less desiring them. and speaking only for myself, i don't place Dominants in some special category and feel the need to automatically defer to them...that is just my nature when interacting with people, any people, in general. and yes i do realize it's this very quality which makes me and those like me very undesirable to most Dominants, because they cannot be guaranteed exclusivity. that was a cause for much depression and hopelessness before i found my Master, and as i said before even now it is hurtful to be part of group widely considered (in or out of the D/s lifestyle) to be least valuable and least attractive.


but as for the commonly expressed belief that there can be nothing special or valuable for a Dominant when a submissive freely surrenders to others....i'll say this: the difference for me between submitting to my Master and submitting to anyone else in any way, is that i always, always always want to submit to him. even when it's hard, even when i'm terrified, i always want to give that to him. and i have never felt that with anyone else, it had always in the past been a mere reflex and nothing more. and that is the difference and what makes my submission something special.

 

[ownedsubgal]

It's true, I am scary.

Although in this thread many of you subs came out with your guns a blazing.

I think I even heard you OSG growl some place back there.

So much for the whole, doormats can't wipe their own ass theory.

lol...i don't growl, but i ball up my fists sometimes. the truth is as you say, emotionally everything goes in with me rather than out, which means these types of discussions cause much more sadness in me than anger or something close to it.

 

[YourCaptor]

Quoted for truth. I think, on the whole, 'dominant' may actually be the weaker of the two roles. We're dominants at least in part because we can dish it out but we can't take it.

Umm, no, I would have to see it to believe it. Just cause I refuse to take it doesn't mean I couldn't.

they cannot be guaranteed exclusivity.

I don't really see this as an essential makeup of a doormat.

Sure if I die she may go to the next in line, but is that a problem? In fact I would rather know who she would go to next. I can be at peace knowing that someone good is taking care of her instead of some ass. Just because she needs to latch on to someone doesn't mean shes not mine.

Plus if someone started to do things to her and she went along but did not like it, I would blame him. Who said he could touch my stuff.

And by the way the whole latching on to someone is so common to say only doormats do it is ridiculous.

 

[ZRT]

I don't know that "weak" is the right word here, but I think I get what you are saying. As ES said, many of the people that sit on either side of that fence are bloody strong. But I do get the idea that many dominants can't take what they dish out. I've known some that were that way, and others that were tougher than leather. I'm not really sure how to quantify this particular impression.

I won't say that I'm tougher than leather, but I do know that there's no way in hell that I could inflict the kind of pain I've taken without causing hospital-type injuries, a point I often make when I'm dishing out the pain. Been there, done that.

But then I'm kind of masochistic myself, so I'm an oddy.

It's not a contest of strength to me, though. It's about attraction and fulfillment of mutual desires- my desire to control and hurt, and their desire to suffer in my service.

I don't break a woman, we get to know each other well enough for a woman to feel comfortable in my service. From there I may 'tame' or 'train' them, but that's another matter altogether.

 

[BiBunny]

But then I'm kind of masochistic myself, so I'm an oddy.

Not really. Now that I think about it, some of the most sadistic men I've met are masochistic as well. Hmm. That's really interesting.

 

[ataxia.girl]

and ataxia, you have survived some heavy duty shit in your life that would curl the hair of some Dominants I know. Also I have read you say that you tend to submit reluctantly, almost grudgingly, that you express your anger openly, almost viciously at times and have been known to throw some pretty mean tantrums.

Its all depends on perspective and context but overall no, i do not think i am a doormat. i wouldn't mind being one though. i think it would be nice in many ways.

One thing i did figure out rather recently was even though i love the power exchange to be as total as it can be i have learned its okay for me to find someone who shares my fantasies and values to go down that road with. Interestingly enough it was when reading some writings of a woman who Daddy had friended on fetlife. i had to go check her out of course. Her writings are of a 1950's household TPE variety and were quite titillating to me. But what struck me was one comment she made to a Dom drooling after her breasts about wanting to torture them. Although looking for TPE she had no problem telling him she was not into any kind of breast torture and would only align herself in a TPE relationship with a man who's fantasies closely matched her own.

i don't know why that was such an epiphany for me but it was. i happen to be in a situation where our fantasies are very closely matched and it is lovely. Not setting my own limits with Daddy has been nothing but wonderful and not at all what i had traditionally thought about that kind of relationship where i renounce not just power, but responsibility as well. Its quite heavenly.

It was only in that paradigm that i began to feel comfortable throwing tantrums and laying it all out there. i'm now quite addicted.