The Doormat Discussion

[eastern sun]

oh i understand...that was just laziness on my part, i intended to quote an earlier post of yours where you first described the conflicting schools of thought on D/s, but couldn't find it.

although, as i stated in that thread, my experiences with that crowd weren't exactly kumbaya-ish. but yes at least it let me know that there was some awareness and acknowledgment of submissiveness as an innate personality trait as opposed to a choice or kink, and that was a comfort.

sidenote: I always thought "kink" = "innate personality trait" in regards to sexuality

I have to comment on something that I keep thinking, osg . . . you are incredibly strong when it comes to standing your ground in casual conversation. In many ways, your steady presence and singleness of focus is remarkable.

 

[ownedsubgal]

sidenote: I always thought "kink" = "innate personality trait" in regards to sexuality

I have to comment on something that I keep thinking, osg . . . you are incredibly strong when it comes to standing your ground in casual conversation. In many ways, your steady presence and singleness of focus is remarkable.

aw thanks eastern sun. the written word gives me strength, it allows me the clear and open self-expression that is impossible for me otherwise. here at least, i am on equal ground. here, my "victim" sign is completely invisible to you potential criminals...hehe.

oh and as far as "kink"...just another personal pet peeve, pay no heed. for some reason "kink" always sounds like "fun, sexy thing that gets me off" and i just cannot identify with that mindset.

 

[Keroin]

I was just thinking, there seems to be a group of ultra submissive types here and who knows how many more lurking out there and too afraid to post, why doesn’t someone start a support thread for this? Judging from the success of the support thread for those in long distance relationships, I think it would go over very well.

A thread like that would accomplish a few things. It would create a safe environment for very submissive types to talk about themselves, their lives, and the kinds of issues they face. It would encourage the very submissive lurkers, (who are probably terrified of having someone like me tell them to grow a backbone and quit their whining, lol), to join in and show that the “community” values them. It would be educational for the rest of us to read about your experiences and learn how to deal with very submissive people we may encounter in our lives.

OSG, you’ve started some excellent threads, I think you’d be the perfect person to start something like that.

This has been an interesting thread but I get a sense that, even though it was framed as an open discussion, the motivation for it, (and what most self-identified “doormats” seem to be seeking), was for support and acceptance, not debate.

Anyway, just an idea.

 

[ownedsubgal]

But lets say I met you in real life, how would you like me to treat you? What kinds of actions could I take that would make you feel at ease?

if i, osg, ever met you, Keroin, in real life? who knows...frankly your personality, your way of life, your general way of thinking, etc. are so completely foreign to all i am or understand that i do not think we could interact well. and the reality is if we ever really did meet, you would probably find me odd for being so silent and cripplingly anti-social, and want to try to say or do something to make me feel more at ease...just what you're asking now...and that kind of attention and singling out of my weirdness would only make things worse.

but to take it out of the context of you and i, i don't want the general public to make some kind of special accommodations for me. all i hope for is even a tiny bit more understanding and acceptance of those like me.

you said, "The more extreme your personality, (general "you"), I think the less likely it is to find people willing to accept you or who openly seek someone like you"...and of course that's absolutely true. but it's not that simple. the message is not simply "well i personally wouldn't want to be with someone like you," it's more like, "no one in their right mind would want to be with someone like you, you are damaged and defective." the first is about preference, the second is about condemnation and ostracization.

you said, "However, if someone tells me they are unhappy with their submissiveness/weakness and that their behaviour is causing them to suffer, my natural reaction will be to suggest they consider altering their behaviour." and as you've acknowledged, you have now learned that simply "altering behavior" does not solve the problem or may not even be possible for some. try looking at it this way: if someone you know is dyslexic, and they express to you how their dyslexia causes them a great deal of suffering and difficulty in life...would you then suggest to them that they try not to be so dyslexic? of course not, because you understand it's something beyond their control. one can either go through life pretending to not have a learning disability...a facade which will inevitably crumble...or they learn to accept and acknowledge their limitations, and how to tackle life within those limitations.

 

[ataxia.girl]

Anyone ever read this article on Steel Door?

THE HIGH-END SUBMISSIVE

i identify with it very much. i tend to overcompensate for my sexual submissiveness with a sort of loud stubbornness. i can be kind of a mule actually.

Another thought that just came to mind was the lead female character in Appaloosa. i loved the way the two men just accepted her for what she was even though it was certainly outside the norm of acceptability.

There is something to be said i think for just accepting who we are and that goes for our mates as well. i'm all for improving ourselves and everything but not if it means improving to the point of no longer even feeling like yourself.

i mean i actually feel pressure to be some sort of strong, independent woman because that is what my spouse wants me to be, even if he accepts that i'm not... sometimes... sort-of. He waffles on it as much as i do i think. He wants what is best for our children i think which in his mind is strong, independent woman but he also loves me for who i am. He is as much of two minds as i am quite frankly. i want his approval whether i want to want it or not. i'm sure he would say he wants what's best for me and he thinks that's being strong and independent. In a way i feel like a doormat for acquiescing to his desire that i be strong and independent and carrying on as if i am.

Sometimes i just wanna be me though in all my little neurotic dependentness.

 

[intothewoods]

The more extreme your personality, (general "you"), I think the less likely it is to find people willing to accept you or who openly seek someone like you. This applies to all kinds of different traits, not just submissiveness. I've never heard any of my female friends express a desire to meet a man who can barely contain his rage and is likely to lash out physically whenever he feels like it. This is not a condemnation of that type of personality so much as a statement about who they, my friends, are and what they need/want.

I would not wish to be in a relationship with someone who is dependent on me all the time. That doesn't mean a person like that is bad/wrong/broken, it only means that I am not capable of being happy, or perhaps even able to function, with a person like that. Nor would I be capable of offering someone like that what they need to function and be happy, (or some degree of happy). I do not want to be with someone who needs to be in control all the time, either, for the same reasons.

Do I believe weakness or submissiveness should be compartmentalized? No. I've compartmentalized mine because that's the only way I can be happy. Because I am able to choose my behaviour, this is how I've chosen to live my life. If you are unable to choose to behave differently, then obviously this isn't going to work for you. However, if someone tells me they are unhappy with their submissiveness/weakness and that their behaviour is causing them to suffer, my natural reaction will be to suggest they consider altering their behaviour - this does not come from a desire to fit them into a mold or make them like me, it comes from a desire to not see people suffer. I understand, now, from what I've read here that this kind of suggestion, though motivated by genuine kindness, is considered offensive.

To be honest, I'm not sure how I am supposed to react now. Though, outside of this board, I've never dealt with anyone who is the level of submissive that you describe yourself as, OSG.

But lets say I met you in real life, how would you like me to treat you? What kinds of actions could I take that would make you feel at ease?

I agree with all of this.

As far as whether or not being a doormat is a choice, my inclination is to say yes, but that's because my definition of doormat appears to be different than most of yours.

JM's posts make a lot of sense to me here, because I've read most of this thread wondering, so what is a doormat again?

I'm sure many of us, for example, have stayed in relationships past their "expiration date," as Netz put it. I sure have! I realize it's more than that but I'm still not clear on whether we are talking about something akin to a learning disability, as JM put it, or a set of choices that makes a person miserable.

I don't think I'm a big asshole because I enjoy life and have the ability to make choices that support that enjoyment. Or because extreme behavior strikes me as, well, extreme. So, a doormat (whatever exactly that is) has no choice in staying a doormat and is sometimes miserable? Often miserable? If someone is often miserable for circumstances beyond their control, I'm sorry. If someone is a particular way that is different than most people but is happy with their life, then how fortunate for you (since the person has no choice, I won't say, glad it works for you or good for you).

If a person complains about their life, like Keroin, I'm likely to suggest solutions. If that person has no choice in the matter and cannot undertake these solutions and just wants to vent, that's absolutely fine, but it's reasonable to expect that person to explain, I cannot do anything about x, I just want to vent.

 

[Netzach]

you said, "However, if someone tells me they are unhappy with their submissiveness/weakness and that their behaviour is causing them to suffer, my natural reaction will be to suggest they consider altering their behaviour." and as you've acknowledged, you have now learned that simply "altering behavior" does not solve the problem or may not even be possible for some. try looking at it this way: if someone you know is dyslexic, and they express to you how their dyslexia causes them a great deal of suffering and difficulty in life...would you then suggest to them that they try not to be so dyslexic? of course not, because you understand it's something beyond their control. one can either go through life pretending to not have a learning disability...a facade which will inevitably crumble...or they learn to accept and acknowledge their limitations, and how to tackle life within those limitations.

But developing, creating, and innovating workarounds that improve your results in the world isn't the same as pretending you aren't actually disabled. In fact, I'd say that the innovations and workarounds that one chooses to develop, actually create a better relationship to your authenticity. Like what you said about writing and online communications vis a vis yourself.

 

[intothewoods]

if i, osg, ever met you, Keroin, in real life? who knows...frankly your personality, your way of life, your general way of thinking, etc. are so completely foreign to all i am or understand that i do not think we could interact well. and the reality is if we ever really did meet, you would probably find me odd for being so silent and cripplingly anti-social, and want to try to say or do something to make me feel more at ease...just what you're asking now...and that kind of attention and singling out of my weirdness would only make things worse.

but to take it out of the context of you and i, i don't want the general public to make some kind of special accommodations for me. all i hope for is even a tiny bit more understanding and acceptance of those like me.

you said, "The more extreme your personality, (general "you"), I think the less likely it is to find people willing to accept you or who openly seek someone like you"...and of course that's absolutely true. but it's not that simple. the message is not simply "well i personally wouldn't want to be with someone like you," it's more like, "no one in their right mind would want to be with someone like you, you are damaged and defective." the first is about preference, the second is about condemnation and ostracization.

you said, "However, if someone tells me they are unhappy with their submissiveness/weakness and that their behaviour is causing them to suffer, my natural reaction will be to suggest they consider altering their behaviour." and as you've acknowledged, you have now learned that simply "altering behavior" does not solve the problem or may not even be possible for some. try looking at it this way: if someone you know is dyslexic, and they express to you how their dyslexia causes them a great deal of suffering and difficulty in life...would you then suggest to them that they try not to be so dyslexic? of course not, because you understand it's something beyond their control. one can either go through life pretending to not have a learning disability...a facade which will inevitably crumble...or they learn to accept and acknowledge their limitations, and how to tackle life within those limitations.

But tackling life presumes there is some choice and free will here and that there is something that should be changed.

 

[ataxia.girl]

The fact is if i'm in some back hallway in a bar coming out of the rest room and some guy shoves me up against a wall and starts fondling me i'm not going to resist and that is independent of my desire for said fondling. my workaround would be to not not be in the hallway in the first place.

 

[ownedsubgal]

The fact is if i'm in some back hallway in a bar coming out of the rest room and some guy shoves me up against a wall and starts fondling me i'm not going to resist and that is independent of my desire for said fondling. my workaround would be to not not be in the hallway in the first place.

yes! thank you. i am all for workarounds, i could not have made it past age 15 without them.

in fact Netz, i love your last post, and totally agree. it just seemed like everyone was wondering why some folks can't just change, or can't just temporarily shut off who they are. and i've been trying to express that not only is that not possible, it's really freakin' sad and unhealthy.

 

[BiBunny]

What is insulting, to me, about "Well, if you're so miserable, why don't you change?" is the assumption that I've never thought of that or tried it before. I have been fighting my inner nature for years, and I'm not a whole lot better off now than when I started. If nothing else, it's left me even more confused than before.

If most of the people here met me, they probably would not get "uber-submissive" from me unless they watched very closely. The average person spends about 2 minutes sizing me up and decides that I'm shy and awkward (if they're charitable) or stuck-up (if they aren't). Then, they tend to think that because I don't have anything terribly interesting to say in the first couple of minutes, I must be rather boring, so they move on to greener pastures.

The only people who tend to dig any deeper than that are either the ones who are genuinely interested (not necessarily sexually or romantically) in people like me or those who get the vibe that they can take advantage of me. The average person passes right by me, and that's fine.

I cycle on how I behave. Most of the time, I try to simply blend in to the background. Other times, I overcompensate. Even trying to act like the average person doesn't work out so well.

Perhaps I don't appear terribly doormattish online or even in person. I can be stubborn and a force of nature if I have been pushed to that extreme, but I don't like it, and it never ends well.

My definition, since we're all throwing them out there, of a doormat is someone who has no real trajectory of his/her own. This person is only drawn to the strongest pull on him/her at the time. There's no unchanging center mass; I morph to whatever the other person wants me to be at any given time.

Imagine a piece of space junk flying through space. It has no self-controlled flight pattern. It will simply rotate around the object with the strongest gravitational pull. To use a simplistic version of our own solar system as an example, the space junk may first be attracted to the gravitational pull of our moon and orbit around it for awhile. Then, due to the positioning of the Earth and the Moon, the Earth's gravitational pull becomes stronger on the piece of space junk than the gravitational pull of the Moon. So the space junk orbits the Earth. Then, the pull of the Sun may become stronger than that of the Earth and so on.

I simply cave to and orbit around the strongest pull on me at any given time. Sometimes, this is a good thing. Sometimes, it's not. My attempts at self-determination always blow up in my face. You can call that nature, or you can call that choice, whatever cranks your tractor, I suppose.

What I have in Master and Mistress is a strong gravitational force. Because of them, I am able to have a consistent center of my Universe, a safe and healthy one, as opposed to just floating along until something, for better or worse, comes along and sucks me in.

To continue the metaphor, they keep me out of the black holes of the Universe.

I apologize for making everyone believe I'm whining. I dunno. I lack the words to explain myself clearly sometimes.

My question to others out there is this. Have you ever been around someone who is very submissive? If so, what vibes did you get from that person?

 

[ownedsubgal]

But tackling life presumes there is some choice and free will here and that there is something that should be changed.

the change should take place in how you approach life, not in who you are, that's the difference i've been trying to make clear. i have no choice in who i am, i have no choice in being wired in this freakishly submissive way that leaves me far more vulnerable than most. but i can choose to simply not leave the house. i could choose to not be in that hallway. i can choose to be owned by someone who gives a darn about me and who will protect me. some of the choices are very limited and may downright suck, but there are choices one can make.

 

[eastern sun]

My definition, since we're all throwing them out there, of a doormat is someone who has no real trajectory of his/her own. This person is only drawn to the strongest pull on him/her at the time. There's no unchanging center mass; I morph to whatever the other person wants me to be at any given time.

Imagine a piece of space junk flying through space. It has no self-controlled flight pattern. It will simply rotate around the object with the strongest gravitational pull. To use a simplistic version of our own solar system as an example, the space junk may first be attracted to the gravitational pull of our moon and orbit around it for awhile. Then, due to the positioning of the Earth and the Moon, the Earth's gravitational pull becomes stronger on the piece of space junk than the gravitational pull of the Moon. So the space junk orbits the Earth. Then, the pull of the Sun may become stronger than that of the Earth and so on.

I simply cave to and orbit around the strongest pull on me at any given time. Sometimes, this is a good thing. Sometimes, it's not. My attempts at self-determination always blow up in my face. You can call that nature, or you can call that choice, whatever cranks your tractor, I suppose.

What I have in Master and Mistress is a strong gravitational force. Because of them, I am able to have a consistent center of my Universe, a safe and healthy one, as opposed to just floating along until something, for better or worse, comes along and sucks me in.

To continue the metaphor, they keep me out of the black holes of the Universe.

I love this metaphor, Bunny. And it totally describes how I felt as a young woman. Because of certain childhood experiences, I had no fixed center and actually prided myself on being able to become whoever "you" wanted me to be.

I had trouble maintaining any of those temporary roles, though, because I'd get rearranged by every circumstance I entered - school, friendships, relationships, family a, family b, etc., and eventually I felt like a sham in most social situations. And I hated myself for not really being any of those personas other people liked in me.

(By the way, I'm speaking only for myself, and not trying to imply anything about you. Your metaphor just totally resonated.)

Here's the funny part - I have always attributed the fact that I don't feel that way any more to my recovery from addiction and alcoholism. I never thought about the fact that it coincided with meeting my husband. But it did.

 

[Homburg]

On the one hand, huge sections of BDSM culture actually romanticize and fetishize the notion of the vulnerable female submissive. In these subsections of the kinky world, the entire D/s dynamic itself seems built on the idea that an s-type is somehow more helpless and at risk than other people, and therefore in need of a benevolent, caretaker, pseudo-parental D-type, to mold her for her own good and to protect her from predators and the unscrupulous.

I don't see that portion of the community perpetuating the notion that women who fit your description are bad and unworthy. Just the opposite, in fact.

I guess you're not seeing the parts that I am. An example being an earlier post that said real doms wouldn't want a doormat. Pretty clear signal there. And, as said in this thread, those areas that fetishise that sort of vulnerability, expect it to only be within that context.

--

Then I'm a doormat, I'm a total doormat.

If the "willingness to stay past expiration in a relationship" is the definition. Most committedly married people fit that bill. At some point, unless I'm just weird, your spouse is going to do things that no one would question you if you left. No one. And you don't.

I'd say that the willingness to stay in ANY relationship past the expiration is a different issue, and more indicative of a doormat. A willingness to get in ANY relationship when desired, the inability to function alone - those are more my markers.

I'd also cite what osg talked about in regard to being unable to say no with non-sexualized interactions with favor upon favor being granted, often passive aggressively in the case of a lot of people but granted nonetheless.

You know, you are usually good enough to not just snip one portion out of context. I was actually surprised to read this, as I said more than just staying past the expiration date. I also mentioned swallowing a load of grief, and the victim aspect.

This is why I don't tend to get into definitional arguments. Short of copping out and quoting a dictionary, no definition offered will be sufficiently without faults to survive being pulled apart and looked at out of context.

 

[JMohegan]

I guess you're not seeing the parts that I am. An example being an earlier post that said real doms wouldn't want a doormat. Pretty clear signal there. And, as said in this thread, those areas that fetishise that sort of vulnerability, expect it to only be within that context.

You cut off the part of my post in which I wrote: "On the other hand, it is true that many kinksters look down on that type of dynamic. It is also true that many kinksters defend their choices in mutually beneficial relationships with language that is offensive to those who make poor choices, or are genuinely unable to choose."

I do see that part, and said so.

 

[BiBunny]

I love this metaphor, Bunny. And it totally describes how I felt as a young woman. Because of certain childhood experiences, I had no fixed center and actually prided myself on being able to become whoever "you" wanted me to be.

I had trouble maintaining any of those temporary roles, though, because I'd get rearranged by every circumstance I entered - school, friendships, relationships, family a, family b, etc., and eventually I felt like a sham in most social situations. And I hated myself for not really being any of those personas other people liked in me.

(By the way, I'm speaking only for myself, and not trying to imply anything about you. Your metaphor just totally resonated.)

It's true, though. I often feel the same way that you felt then.

Here's the funny part - I have always attributed the fact that I don't feel that way any more to my recovery from addiction and alcoholism. I never thought about the fact that it coincided with meeting my husband. But it did.

That is really cool.

 

[Netzach]

I guess you're not seeing the parts that I am. An example being an earlier post that said real doms wouldn't want a doormat. Pretty clear signal there. And, as said in this thread, those areas that fetishise that sort of vulnerability, expect it to only be within that context.

--



You know, you are usually good enough to not just snip one portion out of context. I was actually surprised to read this, as I said more than just staying past the expiration date. I also mentioned swallowing a load of grief, and the victim aspect.

This is why I don't tend to get into definitional arguments. Short of copping out and quoting a dictionary, no definition offered will be sufficiently without faults to survive being pulled apart and looked at out of context.

Whoa, dude, sorry. Didn't mean to make a strawman. I'm a lover here, not a fighter. It's the part that leapt out at me.

I'm just saying I attribute a degree of arbitrariness to the doormat definition. Like YC intimates, I'm enough of an egomaniac that I see how people really like the notion that they're special as the object of abject worship.

 

[JMohegan]

My question to others out there is this. Have you ever been around someone who is very submissive? If so, what vibes did you get from that person?

To me, submissive in the general social sense = having a strong preference for deferring to the opinion or authority of someone else, and experiencing a high degree of comfort when doing just that.

Lack of ability to choose an appropriate or worthy friend, colleague, or lover to whom one defers is *not* part of my definition of a submissive personality. I understand that such an inability may be part of the psyche of some people with submissive personalities, but I do not believe it is part of all.

Given that explanation - yes, of course I've been around people who are very submissive in the general social sense. I'm not sure how to describe the vibe I get. Mostly eager to please, I guess. When appropriately directed, I find this very arousing.

 

[ataxia.girl]

And I hated myself for not really being any of those personas other people liked in me.

i can so relate. That ability to be whatever they want is a curse. Its really hard when you're ridiculed every time you do something that feels true and are praised every time you do something that isn't. Where is the motivation to be authentic?

 

[BiBunny]

i can so relate. That ability to be whatever they want is a curse. Its really hard when you're ridiculed every time you do something that feels true and are praised every time you do something that isn't. Where is the motivation to be authentic?

Yes, this, exactly.

 

[ataxia.girl]

This article describes me fairly accurately. Right down to consciously splitting myself off when i when i was around 8 years old. i put a pseudo-me in charge of us, an internal imaginary friend who would brow beat me and verbally abuse me to keep me out of trouble. i believe they are finding this type of thing to be quite common among young women later treated for eating disorders and cutting. They rule and control themselves with the negative voice.

i linked it earlier but i think it may have gotten lost in the shuffle of posts.

THE HIGH-END SUBMISSIVE

i don't necessarily agree with the authors conclusions but i do believe they are trying to articulate something real. Its just really hard to say what "it" is. my sister and i just call it "it". We both have "it".

 

[ownedsubgal]

To me, submissive in the general social sense = having a strong preference for deferring to the opinion or authority of someone else, and experiencing a high degree of comfort when doing just that.

Lack of ability to choose an appropriate or worthy friend, colleague, or lover to whom one defers is *not* part of my definition of a submissive personality. I understand that such an inability may be part of the psyche of some people with submissive personalities, but I do not believe it is part of all.

Given that explanation - yes, of course I've been around people who are very submissive in the general social sense. I'm not sure how to describe the vibe I get. Mostly eager to please, I guess. When appropriately directed, I find this very arousing.

a question: would it be safe to conclude then that your personal concept of submissive must include the conscious choice to yield to the will of the others, and receiving pleasure/fulfillment in doing so? and if so, if those factors are not present (choice, pleasure)...how would you label it?

 

[ownedsubgal]

This article describes me fairly accurately. Right down to consciously splitting myself off when i when i was around 8 years old. i put a pseudo-me in charge of us, an internal imaginary friend who would brow beat me and verbally abuse me to keep me out of trouble. i believe they are finding this type of thing to be quite common among young women later treated for eating disorders and cutting. They rule and control themselves with the negative voice.

i linked it earlier but i think it may have gotten lost in the shuffle of posts.

THE HIGH-END SUBMISSIVE

i don't necessarily agree with the authors conclusions but i do believe they are trying to articulate something real. Its just really hard to say what "it" is. my sister and i just call it "it". We both have "it".

yeah, i remember reading that article back in the day. like everything else written on the topics of domination and submission, it falls short in place and disregards some things. but i know the general gist of it resonates with many submissives. and someone like Bunny does come to mind when i think of "high end" submissive. what irritated me about the article was the last bit:

Few submissives are truly auto-responsive and subject to nonconsensual access and manipulation by a Dominant. Most submissives have sufficient personal shielding to resist access and the capacity to rationally consider decisions in addition to the decisive ability to say simply, No!

first, the assumption that submissiveness/yielding is only triggered by a Dominant. second, the failure to acknowledge that there are submissives who are not able to split or camouflage their true nature. and thirdly, the implication that the lack of this ability is a negative. grrr.

 

[intothewoods]

My question to others out there is this. Have you ever been around someone who is very submissive? If so, what vibes did you get from that person?

Sure, I've been around plenty of them. The vibe I get is that my needs come before theirs and they aim to please. It often makes me uncomfortable because I'm a pleaser. And that always makes me laugh - if I've been made uncomfortable because they're busy pleasing me, then are they really pleasing me?

the change should take place in how you approach life, not in who you are, that's the difference i've been trying to make clear. i have no choice in who i am, i have no choice in being wired in this freakishly submissive way that leaves me far more vulnerable than most. but i can choose to simply not leave the house. i could choose to not be in that hallway. i can choose to be owned by someone who gives a darn about me and who will protect me. some of the choices are very limited and may downright suck, but there are choices one can make.

I don't think anyone has a choice in who they are. We can only become conscious of who we are and what makes us tick, and go from there.

I love this metaphor, Bunny. And it totally describes how I felt as a young woman. Because of certain childhood experiences, I had no fixed center and actually prided myself on being able to become whoever "you" wanted me to be.

I had trouble maintaining any of those temporary roles, though, because I'd get rearranged by every circumstance I entered - school, friendships, relationships, family a, family b, etc., and eventually I felt like a sham in most social situations. And I hated myself for not really being any of those personas other people liked in me.

(By the way, I'm speaking only for myself, and not trying to imply anything about you. Your metaphor just totally resonated.)

Here's the funny part - I have always attributed the fact that I don't feel that way any more to my recovery from addiction and alcoholism. I never thought about the fact that it coincided with meeting my husband. But it did.

I actually felt much like this too at one point in my life. And (as I think I was just saying recently!) I still often find myself saying I want one thing and then realize that, for some reason, I wasn't being honest with myself.

 

[Homburg]

Whoa, dude, sorry. Didn't mean to make a strawman. I'm a lover here, not a fighter. It's the part that leapt out at me.

I hope that the surprise came across more than any sort of feeling that I was insulted or anything.

I'm just saying I attribute a degree of arbitrariness to the doormat definition. Like YC intimates, I'm enough of an egomaniac that I see how people really like the notion that they're special as the object of abject worship.

I'm with you. I actually really liked the part you had in there about stressing the "ANY" relationship, and getting into ANY relationship to keep from being alone. That is another thing I've seen time and again in that sort of personality.

I don't really know where to put myself there. I like the exclusivity, and want it, but I also like this sort of personality. I think my own compromise is to make sure that the person is so loyal, and so inculcated into my way, as to be incapable of expressing that sort of relationship with anyone else. Or even just afraid of the consequences. I'm cool with that too.

I say that, because I see time and again how many of the women I've been in actual relationships with have fallen into these sort of behaviours. Not perfectly, of course, but with little enough variance to see the pattern. I like that vibe, and I dig the protective response it engenders in me.

And more than once it has been unhealthy. I'm not one that is all that stuck on healthy either. I've been in relationship where I've been flat crazy, and part of me recognised that it was a bad scene, while the rest of me was hell bent on burning it all down anyway.