The Doormat Discussion

[00Syd]

I've never had a problem with the term. If people want to say "I'm no doormat!" instead of "I may be submissive but I still have opinions and actions that are my own," fine. No sweat off my proverbial balls.

 

[graceanne]

"Of course you are not, a doormat with tits would be a tripping hazard.

*spew*

 

[BiBunny]

Any submissive who has to proclaim they are not a doormat is indeed...a doormat and thinks that by making the proclamation no one can see the truth lol.
I have read terrible things written right here on these forums about how a sub COULD NEVER be a slave. It was belittling to them etc and so on, and then they meet "Mr Dom of thier dreams" and suddenly kneeling in the middle of the park whilst on His leash is the most woderful thing in the world.

This concept probably applies to me, in all honesty. I've worn many a hat in my time.

Most often, people seem to equate "doormat" with: "person submitting in way I consider unhealthy and/or outrageous."

Just as, most often, people seem to equate "domineering asshole" with: "person controlling in a way I consider abusive and/or unreasonable."

In the above, "I" = the person applying the doormat or domineering asshole label.


Generally speaking, the difference between kinky and non-kinky people, when it comes to applying these labels, is that the line between that which is perceived to be outrageous and reasonable shifts somewhat. But the usage itself is, essentially, the same. The purpose is to disparage the behavior of people behaving in a way one finds objectionable.

I pretty much thought the same thing. If "I" don't like what you do, "I'm" going to tell you that you're doing it wrong. Gotcha.

For what it's worth:

I only read the term "doormat" in ads or profiles, I can't recall that someone ever used this term 1:1. Of course, if someone would use this, I would just say:"Of course you are not, a doormat with tits would be a tripping hazard. Now spread your legs wider."

*Snort* I'm totally going to use that if it ever becomes necessary.



I'm just fascinated by the whole discussion, and I'm not sure what to say in order not to derail it. It amuses me that by some people's definitions, I'd be a complete doormat and by others, I wouldn't even be submissive. Kinda shows how screwed up the "criteria" is, huh?

Thanks for all the thoughtful responses. More of the same, please!

 

[Netzach]

This concept probably applies to me, in all honesty. I've worn many a hat in my time.

Um, if it's really contextual for you, it's still utterly disgusting to think of yourself doing things widely that you do narrowly without a moment's hesitation.

I know people who are totally fulfilled by being used by everyone who shows up, that's great for them. When the expectation spills over onto other people it's not so fucking great.

 

[BiBunny]

Um, if it's really contextual for you, it's still utterly disgusting to think of yourself doing things widely that you do narrowly without a moment's hesitation.

I know people who are totally fulfilled by being used by everyone who shows up, that's great for them. When the expectation spills over onto other people it's not so fucking great.

There is that.

 

[jenniferbaby]

Interesting discussion and one that I've not thought about in depth before now. A few weeks ago, I was emailing with a friend about my submissiveness and the possibility of exploring it offline with a Dom. My friend writes me that I should make sure I get what I want out of this and make sure my needs are met because I'm not a "doormat"--interesting that he should use that exact word. I remember thinking, isn't "submissive" and "doormat" kind of the same thing? Isn't it ok and even desirable to be both at once? Beneath these musings I also acknowledged that he was right in some ways, that being submissive and having a desire to please is not synonymous with allowing people to walk over me--unless I want them to.

I agree with others who've said that declaring oneself "not a doormat" is a way of maintaining control over something that is essentially uncontrollable. One thing I've learned through defining myself as submissive is that control and consent can be bent, manipulated, twisted around in new kinds of configurations. In some ways, I have no problem being a doormat, but in others, I still have that conception of a doormat being weak and ineffective. A submissive is the opposite of weak and ineffective, so a submissive is the opposite of being a doormat, right? I guess it's like everything else, it depends on your definition which is different from person to person.

 

[nh23]

This is my opinion on this. I've always thought of a doormat as sort of a people pleaser. Someone who allows just anyone to dominate them or tell them what to do.
I also tend to associate it with a low self esteem. Someone can't stand others not liking them or their opinions etc..And will do anything to make everyone happy.

I"m a slave. I do what Master tells me. It's important to me that he's happy. It's also important to me that my kids, and friends are happy. I will bend over backward for them. I'm a doormat for them, but not the rest of the world.

As for the rest of the world. I don't really care. I have to live my life to take the best care of me and my family. I'm not going to even try to be a people pleaser. Just imagine what kind of medical treatment I'd be getting right now, if I just deferred and listened to what they told me.

ETA: I also think my submission to Master would mean a lot less to him, if I was submissive to everyone with a cock, or just everyone in general.

 

[BiBunny]

This is my opinion on this. I've always thought of a doormat as sort of a people pleaser. Someone who allows just anyone to dominate them or tell them what to do.
I also tend to associate it with a low self esteem. Someone can't stand others not liking them or their opinions etc..And will do anything to make everyone happy.

I"m a slave. I do what Master tells me. It's important to me that he's happy. It's also important to me that my kids, and friends are happy. I will bend over backward for them. I'm a doormat for them, but not the rest of the world.

As for the rest of the world. I don't really care. I have to live my life to take the best care of me and my family. I'm not going to even try to be a people pleaser. Just imagine what kind of medical treatment I'd be getting right now, if I just deferred and listened to what they told me.

ETA: I also think my submission to Master would mean a lot less to him, if I was submissive to everyone with a cock, or just everyone in general.

I find this interesting for a number reasons. I mean, at face value, I probably count as a doormat by your definition, too, and you're one on of my bestest friends in the whole world, LOL.

I think the biggest question I come up with here is "What qualifies as submission?" I mean, I doubt in this particular context that we're talking about going up to some dude in the bank, kneeling, and asking how you may serve him.

For the record, I didn't start this thread with the intention of being told I am or am not a doormat. I just think it's interesting how arbitrarily this label is applied to people, even more so than the other arbitrary labels we stick to people who are involved in WIITWD.

What is so repulsive about a "doormat" personality, I wonder?

 

[nh23]

I find this interesting for a number reasons. I mean, at face value, I probably count as a doormat by your definition, too, and you're one on of my bestest friends in the whole world, LOL.

I think the biggest question I come up with here is "What qualifies as submission?" I mean, I doubt in this particular context that we're talking about going up to some dude in the bank, kneeling, and asking how you may serve him.

For the record, I didn't start this thread with the intention of being told I am or am not a doormat. I just think it's interesting how arbitrarily this label is applied to people, even more so than the other arbitrary labels we stick to people who are involved in WIITWD.

What is so repulsive about a "doormat" personality, I wonder?

I don't particularly find a doormat personality repulsive. It's just not me. I'm not the type to take bullshit from people and I've been raised to always stand up for myself. Of course with Master and family and friends it's different.

 

[subish2009]

I'm just fascinated by the whole discussion, and I'm not sure what to say in order not to derail it. It amuses me that by some people's definitions, I'd be a complete doormat and by others, I wouldn't even be submissive. Kinda shows how screwed up the "criteria" is, huh?

Thanks for all the thoughtful responses. More of the same, please!

I completely agree with you. I don't understand why people feel the need to use such a term as an insult. That's ridiculous. If you want to be a doormat, whatever that means to you, be one. If you don't want to be one, then don't be one, but why care what other people are doing?

I DO however think that when women are making a point to declare themselves NOT a doormat, it might have less to do with implying that others are, and more to do with convincing themselves that it's okay to be submissive. Apart from the desire for control while entering a "scene" that they may find intimidating that others have mentioned, and which I agree is probably part of it, I also wonder if they're not trying to reconcile their submissive tendencies with their cultural feminist upbringing. I know I struggled with that for a good long while, though I never used the word "doormat" for good or evil while going through it.

And, yeah, I also agree with you about the "criteria." I suspect I'm even less likely to be considered submissive by MANY people on this board alone.

Interesting topic, BiBunny. Thanks for bringing it up.

 

[intothewoods]

For what it's worth:

I only read the term "doormat" in ads or profiles, I can't recall that someone ever used this term 1:1. Of course, if someone would use this, I would just say:"Of course you are not, a doormat with tits would be a tripping hazard. Now spread your legs wider."

Me too. About the ads, anyway.

And that refers to both the former and latter sections.

--



I see way more of those sort of discussions around here, actually. Hell, Eastern Sun's thread, while admittedly poetic and well-written, is nuts and bolts.

--

So my buddy AP is kink-friendly. I've introduced him to it, taught him some stuff, and basically got him associated with the scene. He has gone on and made some friends of his own in the scene and is basically comfortable with it. Yet when I talk about my own relationship, and submissives in general, he usually says, "No way, man. I don't want a doormat." It makes me laugh. Honestly. He couldn't actually handle most of the submissives I know.

Not knocking my friend, but he still has the typical outsiders view of it, and he sees my two and their reactions, and interprets that as doormat behaviour. *shrug*

I like eastern sun's thread. I'm not even yearning for anything in the way of a thread. It's just that my life right now is figuring out a power exchange relationship in the midst of getting a whole lotta shit done, some of said shit being areas in which submission does not come easily to me. I don't see a lot of discussion that I relate to on this point. Perhaps everyone else doing this is just busy. Who knows.

Maybe your friend is just uncomfortable with power exchange relationships.

This concept probably applies to me, in all honesty. I've worn many a hat in my time.



I pretty much thought the same thing. If "I" don't like what you do, "I'm" going to tell you that you're doing it wrong. Gotcha.



*Snort* I'm totally going to use that if it ever becomes necessary.



I'm just fascinated by the whole discussion, and I'm not sure what to say in order not to derail it. It amuses me that by some people's definitions, I'd be a complete doormat and by others, I wouldn't even be submissive. Kinda shows how screwed up the "criteria" is, huh?

Thanks for all the thoughtful responses. More of the same, please!

Eh, fuck everyone else. I'm sure you could have figured that out but in an LTR the label is just not at all meaningful. I actually find myself reading slave-oriented stuff a lot, since I relate more to the live-in aspect than the slave/sub/pet/whatever ID aspect.

 

[Puman]

This is my opinion on this. I've always thought of a doormat as sort of a people pleaser. Someone who allows just anyone to dominate them or tell them what to do.
I also tend to associate it with a low self esteem. Someone can't stand others not liking them or their opinions etc..And will do anything to make everyone happy.

I"m a slave. I do what Master tells me. It's important to me that he's happy. It's also important to me that my kids, and friends are happy. I will bend over backward for them. I'm a doormat for them, but not the rest of the world.

As for the rest of the world. I don't really care. I have to live my life to take the best care of me and my family. I'm not going to even try to be a people pleaser. Just imagine what kind of medical treatment I'd be getting right now, if I just deferred and listened to what they told me.

ETA: I also think my submission to Master would mean a lot less to him, if I was submissive to everyone with a cock, or just everyone in general.

*sigh* Just when I thought I could actually have an opinion on this, you went and stole it. .
My thoughts exactly.

 

[ownedsubgal]

This is my opinion on this. I've always thought of a doormat as sort of a people pleaser. Someone who allows just anyone to dominate them or tell them what to do.
I also tend to associate it with a low self esteem. Someone can't stand others not liking them or their opinions etc..And will do anything to make everyone happy.

I"m a slave. I do what Master tells me. It's important to me that he's happy. It's also important to me that my kids, and friends are happy. I will bend over backward for them. I'm a doormat for them, but not the rest of the world.

As for the rest of the world. I don't really care. I have to live my life to take the best care of me and my family. I'm not going to even try to be a people pleaser. Just imagine what kind of medical treatment I'd be getting right now, if I just deferred and listened to what they told me.

ETA: I also think my submission to Master would mean a lot less to him, if I was submissive to everyone with a cock, or just everyone in general.

i think this is the generally accepted definition of doormat, and why it is so looked down upon. unfortunately or no, what you described above is a fairly good descriptor of my personality and the way i have always interacted in the world. others walk all over me, no problem. to cause someone else displeasure or disappointment, whether i care a hoot about that person or not, is almost like a physical pain to me. i do anything to avoid it. i don't say no, don't protect myself, etc. yep, a doormat.

and it's true also that many Dominants do not see little to no value in someone like that. it is why i am so very grateful to have been fortunate enough to meet someone like Daddy, and to have met him so early.

what i wish is that the negative connotation of the word "doormat" would go away. that it could simply be a descriptor like anything else, and not a value assessment or judgment. from my observations, people in the lifestyle tend to view submissives whose submission is not contextual, or not controlled, or not specific to a certain individual...as doormats. and when people shout out with pride, "i'm a submissive, but not a doormat!" they are really saying, "i'm submissive, but i'm not THAT submissive" (with disgust in the voice of course). and i just find it kind of odd that a submissive personality is so looked down upon...in the D/s lifestyle of all places.

 

[BiBunny]

But do you go up to men in public places and kneel at their feet and ask what you can do to serve them, osg?

 

[Kajira Callista]

But do you go up to men in public places and kneel at their feet and ask what you can do to serve them, osg?

WOW now there is one i wanna try!

 

[ownedsubgal]

But do you go up to men in public places and kneel at their feet and ask what you can do to serve them, osg?

no. but i actually wouldn't consider that to be very submissive, more pushy and forward.

 

[BiBunny]

WOW now there is one i wanna try!

I'd almost do it, just to see the expressions on their faces! "Almost" being the operative word there.

no. but i actually wouldn't consider that to be very submissive, more pushy and forward.

Me neither.

I've had a lot of conversations with the Master-person about this. He believes that a whole bunch of my problems stem from what he calls my "naturally submissive nature." (No, seriously, stop laughing.) At first, I thought he was full of it, but the more I think about it, the more I wonder.

I think those thoughts have contributed to a lot of my inner fears about submission lately. I could go on, but even though this is MY thread, I'll try not to make it totally about me.

 

[graceanne]

when people shout out with pride, "i'm a submissive, but not a doormat!" they are really saying, "i'm submissive, but i'm not THAT submissive" (with disgust in the voice of course).

Which is kinda what I said.

 

[Sir_Winston54]

Okay, so I'm not a Dominant. Never claimed to be. I'm a Sadist, with dominant tendencies.

When it comes to S&M, I want an S&M doormat: Someone who will lie there (or stand there, or crouch there, or shiver in the cage there, however/wherever I put her), and say, "Thank you, sir, may I have another?" and occasionally, if it's appropriate to her, let a tear or three trickle slowly down her cheek, or let a groan or moan escape.

When it comes to the rest of our life together, though, I want a person who will stand up to me (at least a little bit) when I decide to be an ass; who will *share* the responsibilities of our life together, from housecleaning to budgeting to taking care of the pets; who will *listen* to whatever input I give her on the issues of her life outside the home, and consider that input along with her own thoughts in deciding what to do about those issues; who will offer *her* input on the issues of *my* life outside the home, and accept that I will consider it in deciding what to do; who will discuss the issues of our life together with me, and join in making decisions that affect us and that life.

But then, I'm not the type for a 24/7 TPE relationship. I'm not a Master, nor a Dominant. I'm a Sadist, and my primary interest in my personal involvement the BDSM culture is the enjoyment of the activities of sadomasochism; my primary interest in the BDSM culture in a broader sense is to help it slowly gain if not respectability, at least acceptability among consenting adults throughout our society. That means, for me, to accept that each BDSM relationship will vary in its intricacies, just as non-BDSM relationships do, and to accept that some people will do things I wouldn't, and that some won't do things that I would, and that's all damn right! We don't have to all be the same, do the same, think the same. All we really have to do is accept that others can be, do and think as they wish, as long as they don't infringe on my right to be, do and think as I wish.

 

[Netzach]

WOW now there is one i wanna try!

Oh great, the girls will be doing it too.

 

[Netzach]

. to cause someone else displeasure or disappointment, whether i care a hoot about that person or not, is almost like a physical pain to me.

I hear that and I call it "service oriented." In the sense of having a heart that orients toward service to others, not that you literally have 25 different bathrooms to clean every week for friends, per se.

Why not talk about an across-the-board submissive personality? Culturally/socially and not primarily sexually or interpersonally-only submissive.

There's nicer imagery than "doormat" out there. It's insulting if it's being levelled at you. I guess it could be reclaimed. Interesting.

I've dealt with plenty of people whose sense of service and usefulness and desire to be pleasing *is* global, but who carry themselves without shame about that. It's quite pleasant.

When people act like it's a source of shame and insecurity it's hard not to follow their lead, though. It's kind of nerve-wracking to be around.

 

[rosco rathbone]

I like doormats.


I sort of prefer it.

 

[RJMasters]

Me...I like the whole doormat idea but in a way that is M/s. If he wants me to be his doormat and use me to wipe his feet then I am His doormat. I don't see anything wrong with that and I tend to think I am pretty submissive. *shrug*

How are you at cleaning cleats?

 

[BiBunny]

I hear that and I call it "service oriented." In the sense of having a heart that orients toward service to others, not that you literally have 25 different bathrooms to clean every week for friends, per se.

Why not talk about an across-the-board submissive personality? Culturally/socially and not primarily sexually or interpersonally-only submissive.

There's nicer imagery than "doormat" out there. It's insulting if it's being levelled at you. I guess it could be reclaimed. Interesting.

I've dealt with plenty of people whose sense of service and usefulness and desire to be pleasing *is* global, but who carry themselves without shame about that. It's quite pleasant.

When people act like it's a source of shame and insecurity it's hard not to follow their lead, though. It's kind of nerve-wracking to be around.

I you.

 

[graceanne]

I you.

Doesn't she always put things just right? It's one of the best things about her.