The Doormat Discussion

[YourCaptor]

I think one of the major problems with this is that most people have never seen or known a doormat.

Hence you get stuff like kneeling in a bank, how my I serve you massa, crap.

That's like saying Japanese folk bow to everything all day going, hai, hai, hai.

Also

When subs say, I'm submissive but not a doormat, that's like the old I'm gay but not a feminine gay.

Or the homeless guy under capitalism.

It's the undesirable incarnation that however is still a part of the whole.

Maybe people just need something to spit on.

 

[yourmissl]

Doormat means I don't like it?

As a *'stupid newbie,' the phrase, "I'm submissive, not a doormat" appears to be an exchange between two people who don't really know what the hell they're doing, although one or both may pretend to more experience.

I just can't imagine those words between some of the solid, done the homework, took the time and genuinely, deeply care about each other couples I'm learning about here - whatever they call themselves. But then, what the heck do I know, lol?

*stupid newbie: new to just about everything BDSM, but now proudly aware of their ignorance. One grade up from...

*newbie: so new to the dungeon, so blind from dewy-eyed fear and excitment, that their legs are still bloody from dropping wildly to their knees to deliver their first enthusiatically submissive blow-job. And people think Igor the hunch-backed slop-bowl drone only smiles 'cause he's a half-wit.

cheers,
linds

 

[ownedsubgal]

I hear that and I call it "service oriented." In the sense of having a heart that orients toward service to others, not that you literally have 25 different bathrooms to clean every week for friends, per se.

Why not talk about an across-the-board submissive personality? Culturally/socially and not primarily sexually or interpersonally-only submissive.

There's nicer imagery than "doormat" out there. It's insulting if it's being levelled at you. I guess it could be reclaimed. Interesting.

I've dealt with plenty of people whose sense of service and usefulness and desire to be pleasing *is* global, but who carry themselves without shame about that. It's quite pleasant.

When people act like it's a source of shame and insecurity it's hard not to follow their lead, though. It's kind of nerve-wracking to be around.

absolutely, i can only imagine. but the reason why those with the doormat label often walk around in deep shame and insecurity, with dismally low self-esteem, is because that is often the effect that going through life with such a personality has on a person. the western world is not very kind to overly submissive personalities. you are easily taken advantage of, stomped upon, neglected, outright abused. it is not mother theresa serving the world at large with joyous heart. it is more of an overwhelming compulsion to serve and to acquiesce, whether you wish to or not, whether anyone deserves it or not.

for me personally, after ages and ages with a Master who finds great value in my doormatish-ness, there is much more joy in my service, and even a hint of pride at not being any different. but if one is not lucky enough to find that safe place, where they can be appreciated and treasured for who they are and protected from the wolves at the same time....then yeah, that will not be a fun or inspiring person to be around.

 

[HisSexyPet]

absolutely, i can only imagine. but the reason why those with the doormat label often walk around in deep shame and insecurity, with dismally low self-esteem, is because that is often the effect that going through life with such a personality has on a person. the western world is not very kind to overly submissive personalities. you are easily taken advantage of, stomped upon, neglected, outright abused. it is not mother theresa serving the world at large with joyous heart. it is more of an overwhelming compulsion to serve and to acquiesce, whether you wish to or not, whether anyone deserves it or not.

for me personally, after ages and ages with a Master who finds great value in my doormatish-ness, there is much more joy in my service, and even a hint of pride at not being any different. but if one is not lucky enough to find that safe place, where they can be appreciated and treasured for who they are and protected from the wolves at the same time....then yeah, that will not be a fun or inspiring person to be around.

Very well put. and it is good to have found a Master to keep the wolves at bay.

 

[jenniferbaby]

absolutely, i can only imagine. but the reason why those with the doormat label often walk around in deep shame and insecurity, with dismally low self-esteem, is because that is often the effect that going through life with such a personality has on a person. the western world is not very kind to overly submissive personalities. you are easily taken advantage of, stomped upon, neglected, outright abused. it is not mother theresa serving the world at large with joyous heart. it is more of an overwhelming compulsion to serve and to acquiesce, whether you wish to or not, whether anyone deserves it or not.

for me personally, after ages and ages with a Master who finds great value in my doormatish-ness, there is much more joy in my service, and even a hint of pride at not being any different. but if one is not lucky enough to find that safe place, where they can be appreciated and treasured for who they are and protected from the wolves at the same time....then yeah, that will not be a fun or inspiring person to be around.

This makes a lot of sense. In my case, a lack of self-esteem and a need to please are very closely related. It's a chicken-and-egg question: do I have low self-esteem because I'm submissive, or am I submissive because I have low self-esteem? I will say that both finding a safe place to be submissive and also taking the time to find that safe place has done a lot for my self-esteem. There's nothing wrong with surrender, and it can in fact be a self- and soul-building process in the right circumstances.

 

[Netzach]

absolutely, i can only imagine. but the reason why those with the doormat label often walk around in deep shame and insecurity, with dismally low self-esteem, is because that is often the effect that going through life with such a personality has on a person. the western world is not very kind to overly submissive personalities. you are easily taken advantage of, stomped upon, neglected, outright abused. it is not mother theresa serving the world at large with joyous heart. it is more of an overwhelming compulsion to serve and to acquiesce, whether you wish to or not, whether anyone deserves it or not.

for me personally, after ages and ages with a Master who finds great value in my doormatish-ness, there is much more joy in my service, and even a hint of pride at not being any different. but if one is not lucky enough to find that safe place, where they can be appreciated and treasured for who they are and protected from the wolves at the same time....then yeah, that will not be a fun or inspiring person to be around.

I don't know that people just bump into ideal Dominants and that's their rescue. Maybe in some cases, but I think that usually there's some symbiosis and specificity.

I do think that it entails some kind of self-preservation, some piece of ego or self esteem to find the "safe place" worth finding, worth fighting for, worth pursuing and worth keeping. If someone's capable of finding pleasure or joy in their existence, they know the difference.

I think a lot of people have the compulsion to acquiesce, but don't even understand that they're doing it, why they're doing it, and aren't necessarily happy doing it or unhappy doing it either, but this falls under the theory that a large subset of people have no idea why they're doing what they do a lot of the time.

Personally, I have respect for people who bother to try and know why they do what they do. I have a lot of trouble mustering the same for those who don't and can't be bothered to care. An actual doormat tends to have no concept of themselves as a submissive personality.

 

[ownedsubgal]

I will say that both finding a safe place to be submissive and also taking the time to find that safe place has done a lot for my self-esteem. There's nothing wrong with surrender, and it can in fact be a self- and soul-building process in the right circumstances.

so true jenniferbaby, and good for you.

 

[ownedsubgal]

Personally, I have respect for people who bother to try and know why they do what they do. I have a lot of trouble mustering the same for those who don't and can't be bothered to care. An actual doormat tends to have no concept of themselves as a submissive personality.

this is true, but that is the beauty of life and growth. it is only through a series of very timely and fortunate circumstances that at nearly 19 years old i was able to FINALLY learn that there was a term other than doormat for what i was...and that there was potentially a place on earth where i could be accepted and wanted for who i was. before that time, i was one of the clueless and pathetic wandering around having no clue why i instantly gave in to others the way i did, or why i couldn't say no, or why everyone else's comfort and pleasure seemed to matter far more than my own. i sympathize with those who grow to the age of 25, 30, 40...without ever having the answer to those questions, and in the meantime trying to survive as best they can.

 

[nh23]

i think this is the generally accepted definition of doormat, and why it is so looked down upon. unfortunately or no, what you described above is a fairly good descriptor of my personality and the way i have always interacted in the world. others walk all over me, no problem. to cause someone else displeasure or disappointment, whether i care a hoot about that person or not, is almost like a physical pain to me. i do anything to avoid it. i don't say no, don't protect myself, etc. yep, a doormat.

and it's true also that many Dominants do not see little to no value in someone like that. it is why i am so very grateful to have been fortunate enough to meet someone like Daddy, and to have met him so early.

what i wish is that the negative connotation of the word "doormat" would go away. that it could simply be a descriptor like anything else, and not a value assessment or judgment. from my observations, people in the lifestyle tend to view submissives whose submission is not contextual, or not controlled, or not specific to a certain individual...as doormats. and when people shout out with pride, "i'm a submissive, but not a doormat!" they are really saying, "i'm submissive, but i'm not THAT submissive" (with disgust in the voice of course). and i just find it kind of odd that a submissive personality is so looked down upon...in the D/s lifestyle of all places.

I don't particularly find a doormat personality repulsive. It's just not me. I'm not the type to take bullshit from people and I've been raised to always stand up for myself. Of course with Master and family and friends it's different.

 

[nh23]

As a *'stupid newbie,' the phrase, "I'm submissive, not a doormat" appears to be an exchange between two people who don't really know what the hell they're doing, although one or both may pretend to more experience.

I just can't imagine those words between some of the solid, done the homework, took the time and genuinely, deeply care about each other couples I'm learning about here - whatever they call themselves. But then, what the heck do I know, lol?

*stupid newbie: new to just about everything BDSM, but now proudly aware of their ignorance. One grade up from...

*newbie: so new to the dungeon, so blind from dewy-eyed fear and excitment, that their legs are still bloody from dropping wildly to their knees to deliver their first enthusiatically submissive blow-job. And people think Igor the hunch-backed slop-bowl drone only smiles 'cause he's a half-wit.

cheers,
linds

I disagree. I've been doing this for a very long time. I'm in a 24/7 M/s relationship. I am far from inexperienced. However I see it differently. I will freely admit that I'm a doormat for Master. I however am not to the rest of the world.

 

[BiBunny]

absolutely, i can only imagine. but the reason why those with the doormat label often walk around in deep shame and insecurity, with dismally low self-esteem, is because that is often the effect that going through life with such a personality has on a person. the western world is not very kind to overly submissive personalities. you are easily taken advantage of, stomped upon, neglected, outright abused. it is not mother theresa serving the world at large with joyous heart. it is more of an overwhelming compulsion to serve and to acquiesce, whether you wish to or not, whether anyone deserves it or not.

for me personally, after ages and ages with a Master who finds great value in my doormatish-ness, there is much more joy in my service, and even a hint of pride at not being any different. but if one is not lucky enough to find that safe place, where they can be appreciated and treasured for who they are and protected from the wolves at the same time....then yeah, that will not be a fun or inspiring person to be around.

This, THIS, is why I never have and never will understand the whole "submission is a gift" thing.

Maybe in some alternate happy-pony-rainbow-land universe, it is. But not to me, not in my reality. It's a burden most of the time. It makes me sick. The desire to do for others, even at a huge cost to myself, has left me heartbroken, in staggering debt, used by opportunistic people, and trusting very few people in this world because of the way I have been treated--the way I have allowed myself to be treated.

There's a discussion going on on another board right now. The general consensus is that a person who is accommodating and submissive by nature has something wrong with him/her. It's nothing new, of course. It's what almost everyone, even in this lifestyle, believe. Some dude even said that anyone like that must have a personality disorder. No, not so much.

I want to say a lot more, but, again, I hate to make it all about me.

 

[satindesire]

Oh, BunBun. <3

What I learned from my last relationship is that you will be treated how you allow yourself to be treated.

Submissive or not, if you allow yourself to get walked on, you'll get walked on. There is NOTHING WRONG with expecting to be treated kindly and well, no matter what your label is.

Expecting good treatment doesn't make you less submissive. Wanting to be happy and treated well doesn't make you a bad submissive, either. And there is nothing inherently wrong with wanting something to be 'all about you' for a minute, you know.

I'm Mister's Princess. He treats me like Gold, he really goes out of his way to treat me so well. That doesn't mean he's not in charge of our relationship, and that doesn't mean I don't treat him exactly the same. Him being sweet and respectful, considerate of my feelings and needs, and occasionally doing nice things for me in no way lessens my status as his sub.

Please, sweetie, don't let yourself be treated badly. I know it's a fine line to walk but it CAN be done and you need to start believing that you deserve better. You can have good relationships where you're respected, loved and considered and still be a submissive.

 

[Kajira Callista]

How are you at cleaning cleats?

 

[BiBunny]

Oh, BunBun. <3

What I learned from my last relationship is that you will be treated how you allow yourself to be treated.

Submissive or not, if you allow yourself to get walked on, you'll get walked on. There is NOTHING WRONG with expecting to be treated kindly and well, no matter what your label is.

Expecting good treatment doesn't make you less submissive. Wanting to be happy and treated well doesn't make you a bad submissive, either. And there is nothing inherently wrong with wanting something to be 'all about you' for a minute, you know.

I'm Mister's Princess. He treats me like Gold, he really goes out of his way to treat me so well. That doesn't mean he's not in charge of our relationship, and that doesn't mean I don't treat him exactly the same. Him being sweet and respectful, considerate of my feelings and needs, and occasionally doing nice things for me in no way lessens my status as his sub.

Please, sweetie, don't let yourself be treated badly. I know it's a fine line to walk but it CAN be done and you need to start believing that you deserve better. You can have good relationships where you're respected, loved and considered and still be a submissive.

I appreciate it, satin. But I was actually referring to people in general in that particular post, not my domly ones. I should've made that clear.

 

[Kajira Callista]

Okay, so I'm not a Dominant. Never claimed to be. I'm a Sadist, with dominant tendencies.

When it comes to S&M, I want an S&M doormat: Someone who will lie there (or stand there, or crouch there, or shiver in the cage there, however/wherever I put her), and say, "Thank you, sir, may I have another?" and occasionally, if it's appropriate to her, let a tear or three trickle slowly down her cheek, or let a groan or moan escape.

When it comes to the rest of our life together, though, I want a person who will stand up to me (at least a little bit) when I decide to be an ass; who will *share* the responsibilities of our life together, from housecleaning to budgeting to taking care of the pets; who will *listen* to whatever input I give her on the issues of her life outside the home, and consider that input along with her own thoughts in deciding what to do about those issues; who will offer *her* input on the issues of *my* life outside the home, and accept that I will consider it in deciding what to do; who will discuss the issues of our life together with me, and join in making decisions that affect us and that life.

But then, I'm not the type for a 24/7 TPE relationship. I'm not a Master, nor a Dominant. I'm a Sadist, and my primary interest in my personal involvement the BDSM culture is the enjoyment of the activities of sadomasochism; my primary interest in the BDSM culture in a broader sense is to help it slowly gain if not respectability, at least acceptability among consenting adults throughout our society. That means, for me, to accept that each BDSM relationship will vary in its intricacies, just as non-BDSM relationships do, and to accept that some people will do things I wouldn't, and that some won't do things that I would, and that's all damn right! We don't have to all be the same, do the same, think the same. All we really have to do is accept that others can be, do and think as they wish, as long as they don't infringe on my right to be, do and think as I wish.

So are you saying that submissive women can't be the way you described you wanting things?

 

[Kajira Callista]

Oh great, the girls will be doing it too.

Do boys do that?
If I came up to YOU, I would prolly faint before I got to my knees to ask you anything.

 

[Netzach]

Do boys do that?
If I came up to YOU, I would prolly faint before I got to my knees to ask you anything.

Boys do that. See "pushy and presumptive"

however if some babe did it I'd probably pass out first with the novelty of it. That would be some damn boring SM, KC.

 

[Kajira Callista]

Boys do that. See "pushy and presumptive"

however if some babe did it I'd probably pass out first with the novelty of it. That would be some damn boring SM, KC.

true lol

 

[MisterSir]

"true lol"?

You really aren't interested in quality over quantity, are you?

 

[Sir_Winston54]

Okay, so I'm not a Dominant. Never claimed to be. I'm a Sadist, with dominant tendencies.

When it comes to S&M, I want an S&M doormat: Someone who will lie there (or stand there, or crouch there, or shiver in the cage there, however/wherever I put her), and say, "Thank you, sir, may I have another?" and occasionally, if it's appropriate to her, let a tear or three trickle slowly down her cheek, or let a groan or moan escape.

When it comes to the rest of our life together, though, I want a person who will stand up to me (at least a little bit) when I decide to be an ass; who will *share* the responsibilities of our life together, from housecleaning to budgeting to taking care of the pets; who will *listen* to whatever input I give her on the issues of her life outside the home, and consider that input along with her own thoughts in deciding what to do about those issues; who will offer *her* input on the issues of *my* life outside the home, and accept that I will consider it in deciding what to do; who will discuss the issues of our life together with me, and join in making decisions that affect us and that life.

But then, I'm not the type for a 24/7 TPE relationship. I'm not a Master, nor a Dominant. I'm a Sadist, and my primary interest in my personal involvement the BDSM culture is the enjoyment of the activities of sadomasochism; my primary interest in the BDSM culture in a broader sense is to help it slowly gain if not respectability, at least acceptability among consenting adults throughout our society. That means, for me, to accept that each BDSM relationship will vary in its intricacies, just as non-BDSM relationships do, and to accept that some people will do things I wouldn't, and that some won't do things that I would, and that's all damn right! We don't have to all be the same, do the same, think the same. All we really have to do is accept that others can be, do and think as they wish, as long as they don't infringe on my right to be, do and think as I wish.

So are you saying that submissive women can't be the way you described you wanting things?

Certainly not, and quit trying to stir up trouble!

 

[yourmissl]

I disagree. I've been doing this for a very long time. I'm in a 24/7 M/s relationship. I am far from inexperienced. However I see it differently. I will freely admit that I'm a doormat for Master. I however am not to the rest of the world.

I'm sorry nh, I don't think I explained what I meant very well. What i meant is that it seems that argument wouldn't be an issue... I was actually thinking of you two....I can't imagine you saying "I'm a submissive, not a doormat," because there is no disagreement... you both know exactly what you mean to each other, are where you want to be, and don't much care what or how anyone else sees your relationship.

Does that make sense? I think we actually agree, I just put it badly. I certainly didn't mean it in a negative way at all - quite the opposite. I have a great deal of admiration for you and your relationship.

linds

 

[Kajira Callista]

"true lol"?

You really aren't interested in quality over quantity, are you?

wtf are you talking about?

 

[Kajira Callista]

Certainly not, and quit trying to stir up trouble!

wasn't stirring. was fishing lol

 

[nh23]

I'm sorry nh, I don't think I explained what I meant very well. What i meant is that it seems that argument wouldn't be an issue... I was actually thinking of you two....I can't imagine you saying "I'm a submissive, not a doormat," because there is no disagreement... you both know exactly what you mean to each other, are where you want to be, and don't much care what or how anyone else sees your relationship.

Does that make sense? I think we actually agree, I just put it badly. I certainly didn't mean it in a negative way at all - quite the opposite. I have a great deal of admiration for you and your relationship.

linds

Ah, ok. I gotcha.

 

[graceanne]

This, THIS, is why I never have and never will understand the whole "submission is a gift" thing

Me, either. Normally I do ok with the whole 'being used' thing. I joke that I have a neon flashing sign over my head that says SUCKER!, but sometimes, when I'm already low, it really hurts to be used. K says that's just who I am, and that I'm storing rewards in heaven, and that this is my spiritual gift, but know what? I don't want this spiritual gift. I wish my spiritual gift had been singing or painting or something ELSE.