The Doormat Discussion

[Kajira Callista]

Me, either. Normally I do ok with the whole 'being used' thing. I joke that I have a neon flashing sign over my head that says SUCKER!, but sometimes, when I'm already low, it really hurts to be used. K says that's just who I am, and that I'm storing rewards in heaven, and that this is my spiritual gift, but know what? I don't want this spiritual gift. I wish my spiritual gift had been singing or painting or something ELSE.

amen sista

 

[nh23]

This, THIS, is why I never have and never will understand the whole "submission is a gift" thing.

Oh, holy crap. I can't even get started on this. Last time it was like a week fight remember? LMAO. No submission is not a freaking gift. It's a personality trait that I'm sure all of us wish we could repress at times.

 

[ZRT]

I've kind of looked down at the notion of the whole 'gift of submission' thing myself. But the distinction I make is that while the submission may not be a gift, a good submissive is a gift as a person.

Subs allow me to sate desires that I couldn't otherwise satisfy without violence and unethical behaviors. So yeah, while I fulfill a need for them with my dominance and all, I regard the subs in my life as prizes to be cherished and honored.

...even if I'm kicking them in the ass while they crawl around on the floor. Oh yeah.

 

[BiBunny]

Me, either. Normally I do ok with the whole 'being used' thing. I joke that I have a neon flashing sign over my head that says SUCKER!, but sometimes, when I'm already low, it really hurts to be used. K says that's just who I am, and that I'm storing rewards in heaven, and that this is my spiritual gift, but know what? I don't want this spiritual gift. I wish my spiritual gift had been singing or painting or something ELSE.

I don't want it, either! Think we could trade it in for something else?

Seriously, though, it's frustrating that I can't just be who I am without people taking advantage of me or trying to change me. Even in this thread, you sort of get that sense that there's something wrong with you, you know.

 

[Sir_Winston54]

I don't want it, either! Think we could trade it in for something else?

Sorry... I don't think it's listed in the Big Book of Acceptable Regifting.

 

[BiBunny]

Sorry... I don't think it's listed in the Big Book of Acceptable Regifting.

Hellfire and damnation!

 

[nh23]

There's a discussion going on on another board right now. The general consensus is that a person who is accommodating and submissive by nature has something wrong with him/her. It's nothing new, of course. It's what almost everyone, even in this lifestyle, believe. Some dude even said that anyone like that must have a personality disorder. No, not so much.

I'm considerably fucked up. I'll admit that. I don't know if it has shit to do with my M/s or S&M lifestyle though.

 

[ZRT]

Even in this thread, you sort of get that sense that there's something wrong with you, you know.

There isn't.

It changes the dangers you face in life- because you do have the need to serve, you're vulnerable to those who take advantage of that need, and have to take that vulnerability into consideration in your dealings, as much as you can.

We're all vulnerable somewhere. We have to deal with that by being self-aware and taking protective measures. But our virtues are too often our vulnerabilities, and that is one of those shitty facts of life.

 

[BiBunny]

There isn't.

It changes the dangers you face in life- because you do have the need to serve, you're vulnerable to those who take advantage of that need, and have to take that vulnerability into consideration in your dealings, as much as you can.

We're all vulnerable somewhere. We have to deal with that by being self-aware and taking protective measures. But our virtues are too often our vulnerabilities, and that is one of those shitty facts of life.

Thank you.

 

[YourCaptor]

There's a discussion going on on another board right now. The general consensus is that a person who is accommodating and submissive by nature has something wrong with him/her.

I’ve heard that one before too. Total ignorance and stupidity. Makes me want to slap them around, introduce some reality into their world.

I’ve also noticed that people consider doormat to be synonymous with weak will. Sounds like another blind assumption, zero bases to make such a judgment by.

I really don’t see why people have such a hard time picturing someone that gives in. We see it all the time in movies right… but then those folk end up maning up in the hollywood ending.

Maybe people, kinky people are afraid that a doormat could be real. Consent would then be gone, and people would actually have to be responsible for what they do.

Kind of ironic, Subs potentially afraid to be as helpless as a doormat, and Doms potentially afraid that doormats wont allow them to play helpless. It’s no small matter taking on a life, I supose the inadequate avoiding that task like an infection is the one positive aspect in all this.

 

[BiBunny]

I’ve heard that one before too. Total ignorance and stupidity. Makes me want to slap them around, introduce some reality into their world.

I’ve also noticed that people consider doormat to be synonymous with weak will. Sounds like another blind assumption, zero bases to make such a judgment by.

I really don’t see why people have such a hard time picturing someone that gives in. We see it all the time in movies right… but then those folk end up maning up in the hollywood ending.

Maybe people, kinky people are afraid that a doormat could be real. Consent would then be gone, and people would actually have to be responsible for what they do.

Kind of ironic, Subs potentially afraid to be as helpless as a doormat, and Doms potentially afraid that doormats wont allow them to play helpless. It’s no small matter taking on a life, I supose the inadequate avoiding that task like an infection is the one positive aspect in all this.

I never thought about it that way, but it really does make a lot of sense. I wouldn't doubt it in the least if this were part of the issue. I mean, God forbid anybody have to take any responsibility, right?

 

[satindesire]

I appreciate it, satin. But I was actually referring to people in general in that particular post, not my domly ones. I should've made that clear.

Erk!

Me and my big fat mouth.

 

[graceanne]

I don't want it, either! Think we could trade it in for something else?

Good luck on that, girlfriend.

Sorry... I don't think it's listed in the Big Book of Acceptable Regifting.

Ok, so I don't know about other people who're suckers, like me, but I wouldn't do this to anyone anymore than I'd deliberately infect someone with aids.

As for the submission is a gift, as far as I'm concerned that means dominance is a gift, too. Honestly, K keeps me from being used too often, cause I gotta get anything I want to do (to help a person) by him, and that's not always an easy feet. So who's gifting who? He saves me a lot of heartbreak and exhaustion.

 

[Netzach]

What's irking me about this conversation is this notion that everyone should be entitled to be themselves la la la with no blowback and no consequence and it would be lovely. Yep.

It would.

Sucks to be misunderstood and undervalued. Yep.

I have all *kinds* of personality traits I have to fight, suppress, and more importantly, deploy *selectively* in order to get through my day. Damn skippy I have to shut off my natural Dominance frequently or else the result is detrimental to me in the extreme.

Show me one person who doesn't? Even remarkably secure and calm in their skin people usually have *worked* for that.

Even if you're a relatively laid back, fuck the world, I'ma go be self-employed loner nut, like me, you are still in a state of negotiation and forethought in dealing with how you will be received. You are still subject to a struggle to be taken seriously and thrown into the same hierarchy.

One's success in navigating it versus failure doesn't make the damn thing any more easy to cope with or fun.

There's no one who gets to be this gloriously unedited version of themselves that's fulfilling without other people coming down on him or her in some way for it. Conflict is part of life.

*Everyone* has to find a safe space to be you and me, la la la. I realize that submissiveness as a personality doesn't exactly get you a prize, but I don't see them being handed out for a lot of things you're born with.

 

[BiBunny]

What's irking me about this conversation is this notion that everyone should be entitled to be themselves la la la with no blowback and no consequence and it would be lovely. Yep.

It would.

Sucks to be misunderstood and undervalued. Yep.

I have all *kinds* of personality traits I have to fight, suppress, and more importantly, deploy *selectively* in order to get through my day. Damn skippy I have to shut off my natural Dominance frequently or else the result is detrimental to me in the extreme.

Show me one person who doesn't? Even remarkably secure and calm in their skin people usually have *worked* for that.

Even if you're a relatively laid back, fuck the world, I'ma go be self-employed loner nut, like me, you are still in a state of negotiation and forethought in dealing with how you will be received. You are still subject to a struggle to be taken seriously and thrown into the same hierarchy.

One's success in navigating it versus failure doesn't make the damn thing any more easy to cope with or fun.

There's no one who gets to be this gloriously unedited version of themselves that's fulfilling without other people coming down on him or her in some way for it. Conflict is part of life.

*Everyone* has to find a safe space to be you and me, la la la. I realize that submissiveness as a personality doesn't exactly get you a prize, but I don't see them being handed out for a lot of things you're born with.

Of course.

What I object to is the assumption that I'M the fucked up one, that I'M the one who should change everything about myself because others like to take advantage. It's like, give them a cookie for picking out the sucker to tell their sob story to, but tell me "Oh, you deserved it for falling for it."

What's wrong with this picture?

 

[Netzach]

Of course.

What I object to is the assumption that I'M the fucked up one, that I'M the one who should change everything about myself because others like to take advantage. It's like, give them a cookie for picking out the sucker to tell their sob story to, but tell me "Oh, you deserved it for falling for it."

What's wrong with this picture?

Plenty. It's bullshit. But it's everyone's bullshit to some degree. It's not the exclusive province of submissive people to place trust in someone you should not and be let down and have to evaluate that in terms of "what am I, stupid? Damaged, dumb?" Welcome to my family.

Confidences and placing them are not just some ugly task left to submissive people, but all of humanity. And there's very little encouragement for the person who misplaces one, no matter what or who or where they are. The primary difference between the experience as a submissive versus as anything else is you're being spit out of two crappy chutes of the same hopper.

This is one of those myths that makes it very hard for Dominants to find support in the dissolution of important relationships. Submissives are supposed to be soft and trusting and open, we're NOT. So if we are, and if the relationship brings the fail, we're double jackassed because we're supposed to be emotionally irrelevant in our super strength and in control to the point where no one would ever dream of leaving.

Do you think that most people who are baseline, maybe not submissive but humanistic optimists who like to give people the benefit of the doubt like to deal with this fact more than you? Have to change less? Have you ever met any non-submissive personalities who work in law enforcement, social services, or education?

I personally, like to labor under the delusion that people I meet and speak to are smart and possessed of a modicum of self-preservation. I've had that hope kicked in the teeth on a near-daily basis. My desire to rant and rave and save people from themselves in my 20's was one I had to let go of or remain even more annoying than I am now and perpetually disappointed and eating TUMS. I *despise* that I found anything of value in Atlas Shrugged, but when push comes to great shove, I had to change into someone capable of sidestepping and letting 'em drive the train over the cliff if they were like that.

That was fucking painful, but until someone waves a wand over stupidity and willful ignorance, I'm stuck showing my colors only part of the time and shutting my mouth in other situations and dancing the dance. This is just one stupid example, but my desire for people to be smart and self-aware is no less profound than anyone else's desire to help people or serve them or make them happy. It borders on unhealth at times, I'm sure. I just want people to *think*. And often, regularly, they do not. A conclusion I disagree with that can reveal its own logic is perfectly fine, but I'm not talking about that.

People sucker people with vulnerability when it's good bait. Not just shrewdness and venality.

How do I know? I come from these people.

 

[ataxia.girl]

i have doormat tendencies but i hide them well.

When i submit willingly with a smile it is a gift. Believe me if you were used to putting up with my thinly veiled reluctant compliance the rest of the time you would definitely feel like you'd been given a gift on those rare occasions i submit and surrender happily.

i find the need to be dominated (note i did not say need to submit) highly frustrating. The reality is my frustration at needing to be dominated is no more going to make it go away than my frustration at needing to eat is going to make me no longer need food.

 

[Millificent]

Quite honestly I see myself as a doormat, but a medium/smallish one. Not one of those big ones that takes up half the front porch. I don't like confrontation. I don't like making decisions. If I am going out to eat with someone I always defer to them to where they want to go and it upsets me when I have to make the choice. I want to do what they want to do.

However...I have always been like this. It is not something that suddenly came about when I submitted. Nor did it become worse when I entered M/s territory. In fact, quite the opposite is true.

Let me explain. To me, being a doormat is not standing up for yourself to other people. It's keeping yourself hidden from others--bottling up your feelings so as not to hurt other people. Being a doormat is hurting yourself. Master doesn't go for that as if I'm hurting myself I'm not effectively taking care of his property.

Some things are easier to obey than others. But obeying an order is not the same as being a doormat in my book. Especially if the order is to help you from staying a doormat.

For example, I am having a computer issue right now. I have taken the necessary steps to have it resolved, but there is still a small problem. I am content (mostly) to sit and wait for additional contact in email form. However, I've been tasked with calling them. I hate calling, but I will do it because it will make me stronger as a person and less doormat-y.

Forgive the ramblings....

 

[graceanne]

I don't consider myself a door mat. I do consider myself a sucker. As I said before, normally I handle this pretty well. It's only when I'm just down anyway that it really bothers me. Honestly, I think that you should do what's right, whether you could get burned or not. Love your neighbor and all that. 'It's not my problem' is the battle cry of my generation and it infuriates me. Then who's problem is it?

I also have issues with confrontation. I have a stomach ache right now because my mother and I are having a contest of wills over whether I'm bringing my niece with me to the beach. (She's gonna lose.) Just because I hate doing it, doesn't mean I don't, though. I raise hell when I need to. I am a bitch when it's necessary. And then I go home and puke. That's the reality of my situation. LOL

 

[ataxia.girl]

i'm a prickly, scratchy, leaves a residue kinda doormat

 

[Adakgirl]

I can't remember ever using the term "Doormat" to describe anyone's submissive nature, but I do remember my mother using it. She used it when she talked to us about what it takes for a woman to survive out there in the real world.
She told us that there were going to be times in our lives when the smartest, most sensible and safest decision for us to make concerning certain men would be to back off, shut up, lay down, curl up, and show him that we were strong enough to accept whatever he was going to dish out...without argument, without a fight. Not only act like a doormat, but BE a doormat for as long as it took for us to decide if it what was happening to us was a good thing or a bad thing.

She'd say "and if you decide it's a bad thing then you must be able to stand up, stand up and confront it, then either try to fix it , if it's fixable or stand up, walk away and never look back." So you have to be strong, you have to be smart, you have to be willing to expose yourself to find out.

Real doormats.. she said, simply cant stand back up once they lay down, they can't look up, they can't function in the face of it, all they can possibly do is cower and cry and feel sorry for themselves, trust me girls..if you reach that point, the man who you laid down for will not pick you up, he will not save you, he will step all over you until you are no longer you at all. You have to be able to get back up if it's a bad thing...she would say.

 

[YourCaptor]

What's irking me about this conversation is this notion that everyone should be entitled to be themselves la la la with no blowback and no consequence and it would be lovely. Yep.

True, but it would also be nice if the self-elected high council of D/s guidance would quite pontificating on the merits of a challenging sub.

I can’t tell you how many times I have read in some guide something like

Are subs doormats?
No, all doms hate doormats, doormats are a waste of life.

It’s especially frustrating cause those same people preach, “do what ever you want, call it BDSM and it is, lets all slide down some rainbows.” And then they get to the doormat section.

 

[Netzach]

True, but it would also be nice if the self-elected high council of D/s guidance would quite pontificating on the merits of a challenging sub.

I can’t tell you how many times I have read in some guide something like

Are subs doormats?
No, all doms hate doormats, doormats are a waste of life.

I don't get the idea that if you don't push back against YOUR Dominant, you're not doing it right. Some of us have absolutely no interest in these kinds of games. It doesn't mean I'm weak from the top, it means my time is limited and I choose not to waste it.

However, because I consider myself *she who is to be served* real world babysitting is also not an interest of mine in my own relationships.

That doesn't make me a horrid person either. I have a very specific range of compatibility.

 

[intothewoods]

I had dinner with two other kinky married couples the other night and we all seemed to have a different idea of how much power exchange was involved in our relationships (one couple consists of two tops, so it wasn't all D/s). I found it funny that the person I think of as highly, highly submissive - her husband thinks he is actually the one doing the submitting. I have a hard time believing most people are always one way all the time.

Except OSG.

 

[Adakgirl]

I think my mom was wrong. She was wrong about a lot of things.