The Miseducation of the American Boy

[alohadave]

That is true, definitely, but keep in mind that college and university are great filters.

When I went to community college, I was shocked how different the vibe was. High school was mandatory, while college was optional, so everyone there was there because they wanted to be there.

"Should" is carrying a lot of water here.

Nobody can tell me when or how I "should" express my painful emotions. That's my business and not theirs, surely. If they wish to bawl for hours over a painful emotion, more power to them. If I don't, then why would anyone assume I'm somehow flawed or stunted?

That's my fault. 'Could' is probably a more appropriate word to use.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

When I went to community college, I was shocked how different the vibe was. High school was mandatory, while college was optional, so everyone there was there because they wanted to be there

Please don't take this personally, but I'm guessing you haven't been to a CC recently.
It's most assuredly not full of people who "want" to be there. There are plenty of people there who have no clue what they want to do, but they've been told their whole lives they have to go to college to be successful.

 

[Voboy]

Then you are the exception, not the rule. And much more self-assured and self-confident than most.

Edited to add: Or it could be, because you didn't like them or trust them, you didn't give a shit what they thought. The human psyche is a strange thing. We can do things in front of those we care little for, or care little about their opinion, that we won't or refuse to do in front of those we respect and love. Humans be strange creatures sometimes.
Comshaw

Or? Maybe you were making a claim that simply isn't correct. I've seen a lot of soldiers cry.

Beats me. I tend to think we're all best off not making generalizations about tears, whether or not those generalizations are supported by "research." There are an infinite number of variables that go into how different people react to different stimuli. Maybe it's best if we just accept that we're all different, with sociocultural differences that pile on top of physiological differences that in turn pile on top of situationally-attributable differences that, taken together, make a soup of variables with too many ingredients to usefully try to quantify. And that gender, more to the point of this thread, is just one of those variables.

I dunno.

 

[Comshaw]

Or? Maybe you were making a claim that simply isn't correct. I've seen a lot of soldiers cry.

Beats me. I tend to think we're all best off not making generalizations about tears, whether or not those generalizations are supported by "research." There are an infinite number of variables that go into how different people react to different stimuli. Maybe it's best if we just accept that we're all different, with sociocultural differences that pile on top of physiological differences that in turn pile on top of situationally-attributable differences that, taken together, make a soup of variables with too many ingredients to usefully try to quantify. And that gender, more to the point of this thread, is just one of those variables.

I dunno.

It is one of those variable. Historically, societally, and emotionally it has always been the males that are taught not to cry and reinforced by almost every action fo society.

It could be generational. A year in Vietnam and I never saw anyone cry. Scared spitless, yes, shaking with fear absolutely, but nary a tear to be seen. Okay, that's not entirely correct. A guy that got Dear Johned by his girlfriend did cry. But that was it. And I really, really doubt you saw "a lot of soldiers cry". That environment doesn't lend itself to such things. That's from empirical observation, a year in a combat zone and 6 years active Army, not some dry book "research".


Comshaw

 

[Bramblethorn]

The Miseducation of the American Boy

You are all now aware that Archiving websites exist.

Another useful one is https://12ft.io/.

 

[Voboy]

It is one of those variable. Historically, societally, and emotionally it has always been the males that are taught not to cry and reinforced by almost every action fo society.

It could be generational. A year in Vietnam and I never saw anyone cry. Scared spitless, yes, shaking with fear absolutely, but nary a tear to be seen. Okay, that's not entirely correct. A guy that got Dear Johned by his girlfriend did cry. But that was it. And I really, really doubt you saw "a lot of soldiers cry". That environment doesn't lend itself to such things. That's from empirical observation, a year in a combat zone and 6 years active Army, not some dry book "research".


Comshaw

Could definitely be generational; I don't doubt that it is, even though my service was longer ago than you might realize.

I agree that males are discouraged from crying, but I think there's a mistaken assumption in some quarters that it's "okay" for females to cry. I'm not sure my experience supports that. Overly emotional behavior often gets weird looks from everyone around, no matter which gender is exhibiting it. Again, I'm not about to claim I've got the market cornered on these kinds of observations; we're all products of our environment.

Generally, as someone (@XerXesXu maybe?) posted above, I'm in the camp that doesn't expect to see all that many tears from ANYONE over about ten or twelve years of age. Deaths, births, and weddings excepted, sometimes.

 

[Devinter]

Deaths, births, and weddings excepted, sometimes.

That 'sometimes' cuts deep.

 

[StillStunned]

I subverted all that in my take on the Arthurian myth. Arthur's daughter - Mordred's twin - now she was the badass in my version.

The Dark Chronicles

I'll have to check it out one of these days.

 

[nice90sguy]

My first reaction on reading that excerpt is that it really is saying something about American male youth, not young men in general. Where I live, young men and young women aren't particularly interested in "successful masculinity" (whatever that's supposed to mean) , so much as achieving success financially, or academically, or in sports or entertainment. Fame seems to be a lot more important to young men than how masculine they are.

 

[R. Richard]

Don't you call me boy!

 

[nice90sguy]

Don't you call me boy!

Sorry, Mr Tibbs

 

[Andreas_Kreuz]

I think it is obvious, that society with respect to the role and treatment of women has changed considerably during the last decades. But no one has given boys an idea on how to interact with this new model of femininity. (And not just femininity, but a society, where the lone hunter is not a working behavior any more, but just ends up lonely.)

Part of it, is, that to many women who want liberation, still respond to strong dominant men. Or have you ever met a woman who at a social event tried to identify and approach the respectful polite reserved young man, that does not hit on her?

And actually she can't, because if she is taking the first step, then she runs the risk of being called a slut.
It is a vicious circle.

And in online-dating it becomes immediately apparent. The symbol of this mis-education (or old-role-oriented education) is the dick-pic. A hapless try to impress a woman with the symbol of masculinity and earning nothing but frowns, rejection and ridicule.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

Part of it, is, that to many women who want liberation, still respond to strong dominant men. Or have you ever met a woman who at a social event tried to identify and approach the respectful polite reserved young man, that does not hit on her?

And actually she can't, because if she is taking the first step, then she runs the risk of being called a slut.
It is a vicious circle.

I'm not sure if I agree with this part. For my generation at least no one would have an issue or be at all surprised by a girl at a party initiating a conversation with a wallflower.

 

[stickygirl]

I think it is obvious, that society with respect to the role and treatment of women has changed considerably during the last decades. But no one has given boys an idea on how to interact with this new model of femininity. (And not just femininity, but a society, where the lone hunter is not a working behavior any more, but just ends up lonely.)

It's been noted in the education system in the UK, that since STEM was actively targeted towards girls, they have leapt at the opportunity. For example , the majority of medical students are women, when it used to be predominantly a male career.
I think you're right. Boys appear to be backed into a corner by motivated girls and maybe they see education as a girly or nerdy thing.

Part of it, is, that to many women who want liberation, still respond to strong dominant men. Or have you ever met a woman who at a social event tried to identify and approach the respectful polite reserved young man, that does not hit on her?

I know it's just a phrase but it's a loaded one: why 'hit on'? Few people hook up at social events unless maybe for a quickie. Real relationships start at work or in the library or sports centre with old fashioned stuff like shared interests.

And actually she can't, because if she is taking the first step, then she runs the risk of being called a slut.
It is a vicious circle.

She doesn't have to act like a dude, waving her stuff at him. Women have been taking the first step for eons, but you just didn't notice.

And in online-dating it becomes immediately apparent. The symbol of this mis-education (or old-role-oriented education) is the dick-pic. A hapless try to impress a woman with the symbol of masculinity and earning nothing but frowns, rejection and ridicule.

I actually know a couple who met through an app and they're married with two little kids. So that's one couple I know. The rest is tumbleweed. Apps suck big time. If you don't think it yet, you will.

 

[EmilyMiller]

Part of it, is, that to many women who want liberation, still respond to strong dominant men. Or have you ever met a woman who at a social event tried to identify and approach the respectful polite reserved young man, that does not hit on her?

I’m not trying to be argumentative [which is a classic intro to an argument]. I find some of this language jarring. Liberation? Are we conflicted in wanting to have control of our own lives and bodies?

Further to what @stickygirl says above, my bf and I are colleagues. We knew each other from work. But, I started to be interested in him, based on him being a regular wallflower at a leadership team workshops and meetings. Some people at lunch or breaks easily slip into chatting about inconsequential stuff with others. He’s not impolite, or stand-offish, but he is a bit shy.

Don’t get me wrong, he’s viewed as a good guy. People want to work with or for him. He’s kind and reasonable. But he’s not the life and soul of the party. He’s the opposite of rude or unfriendly. But I noticed that he seldom initiates conversations with people he doesn’t know really well (me too, though it verges on social anxiety for me). So I gravitated to him as perhaps a kindred spirit.

He’s a big guy, but that’s about the only alpha male thing about him. He’s not amazingly handsome. He’s not an extrovert. He’s the opposite of an entitled asshole who assumes women will fall at his feet. Perhaps unsurprisingly, he’s a big nerd, just like me (though in different areas). He is of course really smart, I probably don’t have to say that.

So I didn’t “hit on him” - but I did start to get to know him as more than a colleague based on approaching him when he was on the edge of gatherings of other colleagues. Talking to him when no one else really was.

We found we were both runners, so again what @stickygirl says. Then, the more we talked, the more we had in common.

I know I’m not every woman. I’m probably an outlier in many ways. But it’s untrue to say that women will never approach anyone but an alpha male. I would think at least a significant minority of women are like me in this respect. I had my fill of alpha males at college.

Now - when the seeds had been planted in my mind and we had got to know each other better (coffees, lunch, water cooler chats etc.) - I absolutely took the initiative in starting to date and other stuff. But he never seemed uncomfortable with me making the running.

I hope I don’t make him seem passive above. He’s principled and has values. He’s probably more stubborn than me in some areas. He says his mind. He knows what he wants and isn’t scared of saying this. He is my rock in many ways. But he has never tried to dominate the relationship, just to be a good partner.

One data point I know.

Em

 

[Kelliezgirl]

I’m not trying to be argumentative [which is a classic intro to an argument]. I find some of this language jarring. Liberation? Are we conflicted in wanting to have control of our own lives and bodies?

Further to what @stickygirl says above, my bf and I are colleagues. We knew each other from work. But, I started to be interested in him, based on him being a regular wallflower at a leadership team workshops and meetings. Some people at lunch or breaks easily slip into chatting about inconsequential stuff with others. He’s not impolite, or stand-offish, but he is a bit shy.

Don’t get me wrong, he’s viewed as a good guy. People want to work with or for him. He’s kind and reasonable. But he’s not the life and soul of the party. He’s the opposite of rude or unfriendly. But I noticed that he seldom initiates conversations with people he doesn’t know really well (me too, though it verges on social anxiety for me). So I gravitated to him as perhaps a kindred spirit.

He’s a big guy, but that’s about the only alpha male thing about him. He’s not amazingly handsome. He’s not an extrovert. He’s the opposite of an entitled asshole who assumes women will fall at his feet. Perhaps unsurprisingly, he’s a big nerd, just like me (though in different areas). He is of course really smart, I probably don’t have to say that.

So I didn’t “hit on him” - but I did start to get to know him as more than a colleague based on approaching him when he was on the edge of gatherings of other colleagues. Talking to him when no one else really was.

We found we were both runners, so again what @stickygirl says. Then, the more we talked, the more we had in common.

I know I’m not every woman. I’m probably an outlier in many ways. But it’s untrue to say that women will never approach anyone but an alpha male. I would think at least a significant minority of women are like me in this respect. I had my fill of alpha males at college.

Now - when the seeds had been planted in my mind and we had got to know him better (coffees, lunch, water cooler chats etc.) - I absolutely took the initiative in starting to date and other stuff. But he never seemed uncomfortable with me making the running.

I hope I don’t make him seem passive above. He’s principled and has values. He’s probably more stubborn than me in some areas. He says his mind. He knows what he wants and isn’t scared of saying this. He is my rock in many ways. But he has never tried to dominate the relationship, just to be a good partner.

One data point I know.

Em

Em, as usual make several good points. One of the roots of the problem in these conversations is that we end up making things very binary.

The world isn't full of two tribes:
Big Male Jerk Alpha Male Jocks who can barely tie their own shoes
Small, male, kind, beta male, sensitive geniuses who are too shy to talk to girls

Men, just like women run the whole gamut.
My last BF is by no means a classic Alpha Male, but I noticed him because he can be relatively quiet until he has something to say. He isn't into chit chat, I had a couple of classes with him and his comments were rare but insightful.
He did approach me, but it was after class and he was curious about a comment I had made in our class discussion and wanted to clarify something. We ended up having a lovely discussion and he walked me to my car. It became a habit, he'd walk me to my car after class and we'd discuss what had happened in class, and one day he asked if I'd like to continue the conversation over dinner.

 

[stickygirl]

I’m not trying to be argumentative [which is a classic intro to an argument]. I find some of this language jarring. Liberation? Are we conflicted in wanting to have control of our own lives and bodies?

Further to what @stickygirl says above, my bf and I are colleagues. We knew each other from work. But, I started to be interested in him, based on him being a regular wallflower at a leadership team workshops and meetings. Some people at lunch or breaks easily slip into chatting about inconsequential stuff with others. He’s not impolite, or stand-offish, but he is a bit shy.

Don’t get me wrong, he’s viewed as a good guy. People want to work with or for him. He’s kind and reasonable. But he’s not the life and soul of the party. He’s the opposite of rude or unfriendly. But I noticed that he seldom initiates conversations with people he doesn’t know really well (me too, though it verges on social anxiety for me). So I gravitated to him as perhaps a kindred spirit.

He’s a big guy, but that’s about the only alpha male thing about him. He’s not amazingly handsome. He’s not an extrovert. He’s the opposite of an entitled asshole who assumes women will fall at his feet. Perhaps unsurprisingly, he’s a big nerd, just like me (though in different areas). He is of course really smart, I probably don’t have to say that.

So I didn’t “hit on him” - but I did start to get to know him as more than a colleague based on approaching him when he was on the edge of gatherings of other colleagues. Talking to him when no one else really was.

We found we were both runners, so again what @stickygirl says. Then, the more we talked, the more we had in common.

I know I’m not every woman. I’m probably an outlier in many ways. But it’s untrue to say that women will never approach anyone but an alpha male. I would think at least a significant minority of women are like me in this respect. I had my fill of alpha males at college.

Now - when the seeds had been planted in my mind and we had got to know each other better (coffees, lunch, water cooler chats etc.) - I absolutely took the initiative in starting to date and other stuff. But he never seemed uncomfortable with me making the running.

I hope I don’t make him seem passive above. He’s principled and has values. He’s probably more stubborn than me in some areas. He says his mind. He knows what he wants and isn’t scared of saying this. He is my rock in many ways. But he has never tried to dominate the relationship, just to be a good partner.

One data point I know.

Em

You'd fight me for him huh?!
Much the same here although I was too dumb to realise how close we'd become through shared interest and work. I was wearing a boiler suit at the moment the penny dropped. So romantic
I positively hate being hit on

 

[EmilyMiller]

Em, as usual make several good points. One of the roots of the problem in these conversations is that we end up making things very binary.

The world isn't full of two tribes:
Big Male Jerk Alpha Male Jocks who can barely tie their own shoes
Small, male, kind, beta male, sensitive geniuses who are too shy to talk to girls

Men, just like women run the whole gamut.
My last BF is by no means a classic Alpha Male, but I noticed him because he can be relatively quiet until he has something to say. He isn't into chit chat, I had a couple of classes with him and his comments were rare but insightful.
He did approach me, but it was after class and he was curious about a comment I had made in our class discussion and wanted to clarify something. We ended up having a lovely discussion and he walked me to my car. It became a habit, he'd walk me to my car after class and we'd discuss what had happened in class, and one day he asked if I'd like to continue the conversation over dinner.

I agree that monolithic categories are bunk (then I could give you a few examples of pure assholes from my college days). My bf is a senior manager, you can’t get there without being assertive in your own area of expertise. He speaks well and convincingly about his department and areas he is responsible for. But… he’s much quieter than others at his level and much less competitive.

I do agree with @stickygirl that most relationships don’t start via bar hook-ups.

Em

 

[EmilyMiller]

You'd fight me for him huh?!

I’d try. I suspect you might hand me my ass (I really am not too imposing physically) .

Much the same here although I was too dumb to realise how close we'd become through shared interest and work. I was wearing a boiler suit at the moment the penny dropped. So romantic

I’ve written about basically jumping my bf. But - for authorial reasons - I left out the beginning to be friends over a long time bit. I think that’s often how it works.

Em

 

[Kelliezgirl]

I agree that monolithic categories are bunk (then I could give you a few examples of pure assholes from my college days). My bf is a senior manager, you can’t get there without being assertive in your own area of expertise. He speaks well and convincingly about his department and areas he is responsible for. But… he’s much quieter than others at his level and much less competitive.

I do agree with @stickygirl that most relationships don’t start via bar hook-ups.

Em

But we were discussing a social gathering, not necessarily a bar hookup.

 

[policywank]

Em, as usual make several good points. One of the roots of the problem in these conversations is that we end up making things very binary.

The world isn't full of two tribes:
Big Male Jerk Alpha Male Jocks who can barely tie their own shoes
Small, male, kind, beta male, sensitive geniuses who are too shy to talk to girls

Men, just like women run the whole gamut.
My last BF is by no means a classic Alpha Male, but I noticed him because he can be relatively quiet until he has something to say. He isn't into chit chat, I had a couple of classes with him and his comments were rare but insightful.
He did approach me, but it was after class and he was curious about a comment I had made in our class discussion and wanted to clarify something. We ended up having a lovely discussion and he walked me to my car. It became a habit, he'd walk me to my car after class and we'd discuss what had happened in class, and one day he asked if I'd like to continue the conversation over dinner.

I think that this binary dynamic is a big factor for young men. However, in our modern world I think of the binary option as being more along the lines of traditionally desirable masculine traits (with an unfortunate dose of toxicity) versus the man bun progressives rushing to emasculate themselves to prove how sensitive and feminist they are.

Traditionally masculine men can regard the sensitive genius with respect, especially if he is successful. But they have little regard for the other group.

Of course that is a bit of a ridiculous caricature. But on many levels traditional and social media have put the traditional male under attack, while holding up the overdone progressive caricature as the objective.

Guys who don't have a good role model will struggle to counter these impressions and won't have the tools to find the appropriate mid-point. When told that they are "bad" for being masculine they will double down on that.

 

[EmilyMiller]

But we were discussing a social gathering, not necessarily a bar hookup.

Yes. Maybe I misspoke with “bar”

 

[EmilyMiller]

Of course that is a bit of a ridiculous caricature. But on many levels traditional and social media have put the traditional male under attack, while holding up the overdone progressive caricature as the objective.

Does this have to be political? We have a forum for that. This is about people not blue or red.

Em

 

[Kelliezgirl]

I think that this binary dynamic is a big factor for young men. However, in our modern world I think of the binary option as being more along the lines of traditionally desirable masculine traits (with an unfortunate dose of toxicity) versus the man bun progressives rushing to emasculate themselves to prove how sensitive and feminist they are.

Traditionally masculine men can regard the sensitive genius with respect, especially if he is successful. But they have little regard for the other group.

Of course that is a bit of a ridiculous caricature. But on many levels traditional and social media have put the traditional male under attack, while holding up the overdone progressive caricature as the objective.

Guys who don't have a good role model will struggle to counter these impressions and won't have the tools to find the appropriate mid-point. When told that they are "bad" for being masculine they will double down on that.

Most of the boys I went to school with, who were masculine, were totally cool with the artistic types. Had a kid in my class who was an amazingly talented artist. He'd sketch something in the margin of his notes during class that should be framed. The consensus among all the people I know (guys and gals) was someday we were all going to be able to brag that we went to HS with that guy. If someone started messing with him those "big dumb jocks" would have thrown them in a dumpster, not joined in.
Of course that kind of thing doesn't make for a heartwarming Hollywood story about "the geeks shall inherit the earth".

 

[Andreas_Kreuz]

I'm not sure if I agree with this part. For my generation at least no one would have an issue or be at all surprised by a girl at a party initiating a conversation with a wallflower.

Is it not revealing, that "respectful, polite, reserved" is translated to wallflower? Talk is cheap, wetalk to many people. But beyond that. Have you told a guy find him hot? Dared to cross the chasm of rejection?

I find some of this language jarring.

Maybe, because I am not a native english speaker? So how close did you really get wih him? Where you the one who tried to the point where you might be rejected? Kissed him? Got physical?