The Miseducation of the American Boy

[Wifetheif]

Harlan Ellison wrote an essay entitled "The Three Most important Things In Life" He stated they were in order, sex, violence, and labor relations. Sex because without it there are no people and because it is a motivator for so many things. Violence -- not as a participant but rather an awareness that violence can stike us at virtually any time and any place. Labor relations because if you can't work well with others life is going to be that much harder for you. He didn't go into specifics on the first the second he related a tale of random violence breaking out in a movie theater during "Save the Tiger" over a minor noise complaint. The last example he gave is infamous. He was hired by Walt Disney Studios. The first day at lunch he regales his fellow writers with the idea of making a pornographic Disney cartoon where Mickey fucks Minnie in lurid closeups, etc. What NONE of his fellow writers told him was that Roy Disney, Walt's brother was dining at the next table taking it all in. When Ellison finished lunch he found out that his name had been removed from his office door and he was escorted from the building! I think his mantra still holds. The problem is that today's young men have a much more narrow path to manhood than previous generations. There is no defining war, no defining movement, no clear path to manhood. Girls are told they can be anything. Boys are told to be men or else they are gay, betas, or cucks. We need to make clear to boys that men can be anything they want as well and that aging should be a broadening, not a narrowing experience. Men can and should be sensitive. "suck it up" helps no one.

 

[EmilyMiller]

Maybe, because I am not a native english speaker? So how close did you really get wih him? Where you the one who tried to the point where you might be rejected? Kissed him? Got physical?

I invited him for a drink after work. I wanted his expertise on something relevant to my department. I kissed him while we were waiting to be served.

Em

 

[policywank]

Most of the boys I went to school with, who were masculine, were totally cool with the artistic types. Had a kid in my class who was an amazingly talented artist. He'd sketch something in the margin of his notes during class that should be framed. The consensus among all the people I know (guys and gals) was someday we were all going to be able to brag that we went to HS with that guy. If someone started messing with him those "big dumb jocks" would have thrown them in a dumpster, not joined in.
Of course that kind of thing doesn't make for a heartwarming Hollywood story about "the geeks shall inherit the earth".

I'd say that is consistent with my experience as well. The stereotype of jocks picking on nerds isn't really something I have seen much of in real life.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

Is it not revealing, that "respectful, polite, reserved" is translated to wallflower? Talk is cheap, wetalk to many people. But beyond that. Have you told a guy find him hot? Dared to cross the chasm of rejection?

The term "wallflower" is a bit of an over simplification, but without having a semantic argument, the point is simply that I think, for my generation at least, the social taboos of being a female who make the first move, or initiates conversation has pretty much disappeared.
Would I walk up to a random guy and say "you're hot!"
No, I wouldn't. Do I compliment men I don't know? Actually I try to make a habit of it. I complimented a guy at lunch on monday for a cool shirt he was wearing.
As to the "chasm of rejection", I agree that more of the burden of rejection is on men in a society, and I will also add that while women have the absolute right to say "No" to anyone, if a guy asks politely then the response, yes or no, should be equally polite. We should all endeavor to treat each other with more respect.

 

[EmilyMiller]

The problem is that today's young men have a much more narrow path to manhood than previous generations. There is no defining war, no defining movement, no clear path to manhood.

I don’t recognize manhood as being something a war defines.

Girls are told they can be anything.

I think it’s worth pointing out that this is a relatively new thing. It used to be the other way round.

Boys are told to be men or else they are gay, betas, or cucks.

By whom? I don’t recognize this.

We need to make clear to boys that men can be anything they want as well and that aging should be a broadening, not a narrowing experience. Men can and should be sensitive. "suck it up" helps no one.

Agree with that, of course.

Em

 

[MillieDynamite]

And he jumped your bones hard on the back of a sports car in the parking lot!

I invited him for a drink after work. I wanted his expertise on something relevant to my department. I kissed him while we were waiting to be served.

Em

 

[stickygirl]

To what extent young men believe the binary BS is down to education. Give people thinking minds.
I don't for a moment go along with this comic-book portrayal of either what men are or aspire to be.

 

[EmilyMiller]

And he jumped your bones hard on the back of a sports car in the parking lot!

Close - back at my place

 

[EmilyMiller]

To what extent young men believe the binary BS is down to education. Give people thinking minds.
I don't for a moment go along with this comic-book portrayal of either what men are or aspire to be.

What she said

 

[policywank]

Does this have to be political? We have a forum for that. This is about people not blue or red.

Em

My comments aren't intended to be political.

I don't need to choose a side to observe that rarely if ever do we change people's minds or help people broaden their perspective by attacking them. Nor do I need to choose a side to observe that one of the many lines of attack in our increasingly polarized world is against any sort of traditional masculinity and that approach tends to induce people to dig in their heels and close ranks around the tribe.

Those are difficult dynamics to resist in the absence of a solid role model.

 

[EmilyMiller]

My comments aren't intended to be political.

I don't need to choose a side to observe that rarely if ever do we change people's minds or help people broaden their perspective by attacking them. Nor do I need to choose a side to observe that one of the many lines of attack in our increasingly polarized world is against any sort of traditional masculinity and that approach tends to induce people to dig in their heels and close ranks around the tribe.

Those are difficult dynamics to resist in the absence of a solid role model.

Just maybe drop the “progressive” language then. Also “traditional” is a loaded term. Is traditional desirable or not?

I’d argue that some aspects of traditional masculinity has harmed some males [not all aspect and and not all males].

From personal experience, “traditional” masculine behavior can harm females.

Em

 

[policywank]

To what extent young men believe the binary BS is down to education. Give people thinking minds.
I don't for a moment go along with this comic-book portrayal of either what men are or aspire to be.

I think that is true. Unfortunately, I don't really see where that education will come from aside from positive male role models.

 

[stickygirl]

I think that is true. Unfortunately, I don't really see where that education will come from aside from positive male role models.

Great teachers

 

[policywank]

Just maybe drop the “progressive” language then. Also “traditional” is a loaded term. Is traditional desirable or not?

I’d argue that some aspects of traditional masculinity has harmed some males [not all aspect and and not all males].

From personal experience, “traditional” masculine behavior can harm females.

Em

Both terms (traditional and progressive) are loaded in their own way. And I certainly agree that there are many aspects of "traditional" male behaviour that is very problematic.

I'm not using those words with the intent of triggering or making this political. I am using them because they are broadly representative of the binary option that is presented to men. The fact that they are so political is part of the problem for men wanting to seek enlightenment or a broader perspective.

We live in a polarized world where we are discouraged from thinking beyond the tribe. By engaging in attack style approach people at each end of the spectrum paint themselves as all correct and the other side as all wrong, which discourages nuanced thinking. So when we communicate to men that certain aspects of traditional masculinity are problematic they are less inclined to listen and more inclined to be dismissive on the basis of the political divide.

 

[EmilyMiller]

Both terms (traditional and progressive) are loaded in their own way. And I certainly agree that there are many aspects of "traditional" male behaviour that is very problematic.

I'm not using those words with the intent of triggering or making this political. I am using them because they are broadly representative of the binary option that is presented to men. The fact that they are so political is part of the problem for men wanting to seek enlightenment or a broader perspective.

We live in a polarized world where we are discouraged from thinking beyond the tribe. By engaging in attack style approach people at each end of the spectrum paint themselves as all correct and the other side as all wrong, which discourages nuanced thinking. So when we communicate to men that certain aspects of traditional masculinity are problematic they are less inclined to listen and more inclined to be dismissive on the basis of the political divide.

I get you now. Thanks. My bad for leaping to conclusions.

Em

 

[policywank]

Great teachers

And good role models. There are lots of them, but seemingly not enough or at least not enough to counter act those pulling in the opposite direction.

 

[EmilyMiller]

Great teachers

Agree with that.

Em

 

[Kelliezgirl]

Great teachers

He was a positive male role model.

 

[stickygirl]

I was lucky enough to have great teachers. I knew it at the time and think of them frequently.

Learning how to think, then learning that it's a good thing to question your own values, instead of parroting what the previous generation fed you. Unfortunately it's the previous generation who have the handle on power - business, politics, media. Think of the three most powerful media tycoons: Bezos, Zuckerburg and stinky Musk - what kind of example do they set apart from ?

 

[Andreas_Kreuz]

Great thread. @EmilyMiller Thank you for bringing it up. And thanks for kissing the wallflower. As a European I find it interesing to read, that you are so afraid, that this might become a political argument. Very telling.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

I was lucky enough to have great teachers. I knew it at the time and think of them frequently.

Learning how to think, then learning that it's a good thing to question your own values, instead of parroting what the previous generation fed you. Unfortunately it's the previous generation who have the handle on power - business, politics, media. Think of the three most powerful media tycoons: Bezos, Zuckerburg and stinky Musk - what kind of example do they set apart from ?

Zuck is 39, Musk is 52, Bezos is 59. Kind of depends on how you define "previous generation".

Musk has a better track record of defending freedom of speech than Zuck or Bezos, the guys younger and older than him. That's probably a fair indicator that it isn't a generational thing.

 

[EmilyMiller]

Great thread. @EmilyMiller Thank you for bringing it up. And thanks for kissing the wallflower. As a European I find it interesing to read, that you are so afraid, that this might become a political argument. Very telling.

I don’t think it’s political to say our politics is broken. I do my best to reach across the aisle. But less and less people do. People hang out with people like them.

We are quite polarized. Or at least people who care about politics are. Others are just disillusioned.

I think it helps that I’m the product of a “mixed marriage” - Dad is blue, Mom is red (but more old school red). They seem to find ways to get along. I try to as well.

Em

 

[policywank]

I don’t think it’s political to say our politics is broken. I do my best to reach across the aisle. But less and less people do. People hang out with people like them.

We are quite polarized. Or at least people who care about politics are. Others are just disillusioned.

I think it helps that I’m the product of a “mixed marriage” - Dad is blue, Mom is red (but more old school red). They seem to find ways to get along. I try to as well.

Em

Interesting take on mixed marriage, lol.

I think that you are correct that simply observing our degree of polarization is not necessarily political. You can make that observation without taking a political position.

I have grown up with the idea that there are two (or more) sides to every story. And rarely if ever is one side 100% right or wrong. If one starts from that premise then there is always some merit in hearing alternative viewpoints. And one will see the merits in having alternative viewpoints. In that case, by definition, having a platform for multiple perspectives to be heard respectfully is actually the most important element of our system. There is no one point of view that is so perfectly correct that would justify actively silencing the opposition.

 

[Codoc24]

I’m not looking to make any of this political. But I can’t stop people bringing political perspectives to the discussion.

The comment about not being allowed to cry is very sad.

This is not a woke / anti-woke debate. It’s about allowing our boys to be different and still OK.

Em

Reminds me of a time when I was in my early 20s (a long time ago). I had a live-in girlfriend, and my Mom called to tell me they had to put to sleep my beloved mutt dog that I grew up. When she told me, I could feel the pressure building behind my eyes as I wanted to cry, but the old real-men-don't-cry mentality won over, and I held off the tears. After the call, when I told my girlfriend about my dog, she looked at me incredulously like I had 2 heads. She said something like, "And you didn't cry when your Mom told you?" She was blown away that I didn't cry, and I felt her estimate of me slip a notch. At that moment, I felt like it was damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Years later, after my first wife divorced me, I was seeing a counselor, and she told me it was ok to cry and how guys would come to see her and it just killed her to see how much guys would fight it to not cry in front of her. She said women could come in and cry their eyes out, but men felt lesser if they did.

 

[nice90sguy]

It would okay if men didn't cry, but they (we) usually get angry instead, which basically explains the fucked-up-ness of the current world.