The Second Amendment, Gun Control, and School Shootings.

[WoundedKnee]

I do my best to find stats that only include intentional homicides. For the arguments I make, suicides are not of relevance. (That's not to say I don't think suicide is an issue, but it's quite a different beast, and shouldn't be argued at the same time as homicide.)

Now, good. What is the intentional rate of homicides per capita of all nations* armed and unarmed?

And you say you do your best. That means, what, you;re not sure if your source of stats is clean?




* and by "all nations" I do not mean the ones you lead with, a carefully selected subset.

 

[coachdb18]

You need to look into the real stats on places with legal gun ownership and gun crime and places with strict gun-control and gun crime.

You see, it doesn't matter how many people own guns in a nation that determines your ability to defend yourself, it's how many people in your particular safe enclave who are emboldened by the fact that they know you have given up your right to self-defense by law.

This is why, one of the reasons, as to why gun violence is rare here where I live surrounded by nothing but deplorable illiterate rednecks many of whom own many guns.

The overwhelmingly obvious ‘bullshit’ flag to the argument that more guns equals more violence is the clearly obvious lack of violence at gun stores and gun shows. That’s where you can find hundreds to thousands of guns all concentrated in one place, and they are ANYTHING but ‘gun free’ but they are among the safest places in the planet.

 

[phrodeau]

The overwhelmingly obvious ‘bullshit’ flag to the argument that more guns equals more violence is the clearly obvious lack of violence at gun stores and gun shows. That’s where you can find hundreds to thousands of guns all concentrated in one place, and they are ANYTHING but ‘gun free’ but they are among the safest places in the planet.

That's because they're gun shows, not bullet shows.

 

[WoundedKnee]

When proper sources are sifting out suicides, do they sift out that special rural category of the family that is up against the wall, having lost hope and facing complete destitution and poverty where the mother or father shoots everyone in the family and then shoots themselves. Is that x murders and one suicide? A mass shooting? An event that would not transpire without a gun? Country boys have knives and sitch you know...

 

[WoundedKnee]

That's because they're gun shows, not bullet shows.

And Bill Nye has attended enough guns shows to know that no ammunition is sold there what-so-ever...

​

Good lord, but that idiot is good for one full belly-laugh every day.

 

[SgtSpiderMan]

The overwhelmingly obvious ‘bullshit’ flag to the argument that more guns equals more violence is the clearly obvious lack of violence at gun stores and gun shows. That’s where you can find hundreds to thousands of guns all concentrated in one place, and they are ANYTHING but ‘gun free’ but they are among the safest places in the planet.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.usatoday.com/amp/1847879

 

[Bray123]

The overwhelmingly obvious ‘bullshit’ flag to the argument that more guns equals more violence is the clearly obvious lack of violence at gun stores and gun shows. That’s where you can find hundreds to thousands of guns all concentrated in one place, and they are ANYTHING but ‘gun free’ but they are among the safest places in the planet.

That's a good argument. Well done for managing to get it out.

I've been known to attend car and bike shows, but none of the parked vehicles surrounded by pretty rope were exceeding the speed limit. The were surrounded by young males dreaming of the speed they could do, just like at gun shows people dream of the power of those bullets that they would fire.

People sometimes remind me of my spaniel. He gives the impression of being very bright and intelligent yet if I give him a simple logic problem I realise he has no fucking common sense at all.

 

[RobDownSouth]

You just handed Not-AJ a reason to go stratospheric. Well played.

Not-AJ has been spluttering quite badly today.

 

[Taint_mAnn]

The overwhelmingly obvious ‘bullshit’ flag to the argument that more guns equals more violence is the clearly obvious lack of violence at gun stores and gun shows. That’s where you can find hundreds to thousands of guns all concentrated in one place, and they are ANYTHING but ‘gun free’ but they are among the safest places in the planet.

Lots of drug dealers are in prison, why can't I get a key of coke there?

 

[richard_daily]

That's because they're gun shows, not bullet shows.

The anti-abortionist strikes again.

I've never been to a gun show that didn't have plenty of ammo being sold.

 

[Emerson40]

The overwhelmingly obvious ‘bullshit’ flag to the NRA BS and argument that more guns equals less violence is the clearly obvious abundance of violence and gun related crimes in the US. That’s where you can easily access hundreds of thousands of guns all concentrated in one country, a country with the highest per capita rates of gun deaths and gun related crimes in the world, and once coupled with the frenzied love affair the pew-pew partisans have with their guns, ensures the US will remain ANYTHING but the safest of places in the planet.

FYP, gun-nut.

 

[bellisarius]

The overwhelmingly obvious ‘bullshit’ flag to the argument that more guns equals more violence is the clearly obvious lack of violence at gun stores and gun shows. That’s where you can find hundreds to thousands of guns all concentrated in one place, and they are ANYTHING but ‘gun free’ but they are among the safest places in the planet.

*chuckle* The last time I heard of anyone trying to rob a gun store 1 of the 3 survived to stand trial.

 

[bestone4ever]

Once ones realizes that Wounded is just a bored instigator troll who will argue ANY point AGAINST common sense, logic and facts, it's fun to sit back and watch him unravel.

 

[Taint_mAnn]

Gee, I wonder if this thread changed anyones own views on the gun problem in the US?

*chuckles*

 

[Sean]

The overwhelmingly obvious ‘bullshit’ flag to the argument that more guns equals more violence is the clearly obvious lack of violence at gun stores and gun shows. That’s where you can find hundreds to thousands of guns all concentrated in one place, and they are ANYTHING but ‘gun free’ but they are among the safest places in the planet.

America has more guns than any country on Earth. It should be the safest by Mensa boy's "logic".

 

[KimGordon67]

Now, good. What is the intentional rate of homicides per capita of all nations* armed and unarmed?

And you say you do your best. That means, what, you;re not sure if your source of stats is clean?




* and by "all nations" I do not mean the ones you lead with, a carefully selected subset.

No, it means I try to find stats that exclude suicide - exactly what I said.

You can't sensibly use 'all nations', because you would end up comparing apples with fish. In order to properly ascertain the effects of greater or lesser levels of gun ownership, you have to make sure, as much as possible, that that's the only variable of difference. Obviously that's not entirely possible, but you do your best. Then you consider probable explanations for apparent anomalies, outliers, etc.

I can't find the relevant data right now because I'm a phone. I'll attend to that later. In the mean time, maybe stump up with some of the evidence you apparently have that I'm wrong.

 

[jomar]

*eyeroll* Breathing is not a 'human right' ... it's a natural bodily function.

Your 'rights' only exist insofar as they don't impinge on the rights of others. If your 'right' to carry a gun impinges on my right to self-defence (i.e. living in culture in which my risk of being killed is minimised as much as possible), then it's not defensible. Something which risks the lives of others isn't a 'right', natural, god-given, or otherwise.

Shhhh, give him some rope. His posts are pure gold.

 

[bellisarius]

*eyeroll* Breathing is not a 'human right' ... it's a natural bodily function.

Your 'rights' only exist insofar as they don't impinge on the rights of others. If your 'right' to carry a gun impinges on my right to self-defence (i.e. living in culture in which my risk of being killed is minimised as much as possible), then it's not defensible. Something which risks the lives of others isn't a 'right', natural, god-given, or otherwise.

Explain to me, in detail, how my right to own and carry a firearm impinges on any of your "rights?"

 

[KimGordon67]

Explain to me, in detail, how my right to own and carry a firearm impinges on any of your "rights?"

I already have ... if you can't follow the really fairly simple logic of my argument, there's not much point repeating myself.

... but I'll give it one more go anyway.

Your 'right' to carry a gun creates a culture in which gun ownership is widespread.
Cultures in which gun ownership is widespread have demonstrably higher rates of intentional homicide than those in which gun ownership isn't widespread.
If I live in a culture in which the rate of homicide is high, there is a higher risk that I will be killed.
Minimising the risk of being killed is a form of self defence.
Therefore my protection of a culture in which gun ownership is low is a form of self defence - y'all argue pretty vocally that we all have the right to self defence.

Basically, a culture that thinks gun ownership is a 'right' creates a context in which each individual's life is at greater risk. Therefore, my argument is that the right of the individual to live in a safer culture should override the right of people to carry guns.

 

[WoundedKnee]

Explain to me, in detail, how my right to own and carry a firearm impinges on any of your "rights?"

She won't do that, she keep falling back on her statistical fallacy and is cheered on by the clown car college. She won't do murders per capita for the subset of nations that she holds up as paragon and acts as if murder was a function of guns instead of a function of domestic violence and drug violence, the two big sources of murder in which the weapon does not matter in the least bit.

It's like the people who are continually yammering about CO2.

 

[WoundedKnee]

Told you so.



Bring on the clowns, bring on the clowns...

 

[WoundedKnee]

From another thread about school shootings:

In mathematical terms, this like so many other issues are chaotic issues.

This means that a topic like gun violence is a feedback loop; every current state is based upon a recursive examination of the previous state until you get back to the initial seed (state)*. Now the religious would say that is Cain and Able, but the original condition is, of course, closer to human behavior as regards to survival (of the species).

Those who believe that they can abrogate human nature tend towards very simplistic explanations of the current state, i.e., the problem is gun ownership and thus the initial condition (seed) is the gun itself, so once the gun is removed, then the problem is cured.

But clearly, we can see, that is not true for it addresses only one factor, a lot like those whom believe that the elimination of man-made CO2 emissions will "save" the planet.


* [Additionally] Part of the growing problem in the current state of school shootings is that the frustrated and the bullied become instant celebrities in a culture that features such cerebral activities as the pods challenge.

 

[bellisarius]

I already have ... if you can't follow the really fairly simple logic of my argument, there's not much point repeating myself.

No you haven't, not in the least. My exercising of my right has absolutely zero effect on you or anyone else. As a matter of fact my exercising of that right doesn't even inconvenience anyone. I exact no cost on you or society as a whole.

 

[WoundedKnee]

I think there is a toll. A mental anguish that says to Kim, I can never, ever visit the USA, I would be terrified the whole time that I was there that some sort of gun would jump out and get me because of the lack of common-sense self-defense regulations.



Just knowing that people own guns is an assault on her right to self-defense by government. I do not think she believes in the individual right to self-defense at this point, I believe she believes in the group rights of the tribe.

 

[KimGordon67]

She won't do that, she keep falling back on her statistical fallacy and is cheered on by the clown car college. She won't do murders per capita for the subset of nations that she holds up as paragon and acts as if murder was a function of guns instead of a function of domestic violence and drug violence, the two big sources of murder in which the weapon does not matter in the least bit.

It's like the people who are continually yammering about CO2.

OK - I did a quick search - a lot of research isn't accessible outside education institutions. But this chart does demonstrates my point. (Sorry, I tried to embed the image, but still can't work out how to make that happen.)

You'll all freak about, because the data's not crystal clear, and you're obviously expecting a 1-to-1 equivalence, whereas I'm talking about statistical likelihoods. But if you focus, for example, on the states/countries with very low levels of gun ownership, they have very low homicide rates. It seems pretty clear that once you get over 25% of households having guns, there is an increased likelihood of a higher homicide rate. (Note - this does NOT mean that every state/country with a 25+% household gun ownership rates has more homicides, but rather that it's more LIKELY that they will.) Conversely, no place with a 20% or lower rates scores over 5ish on the homicide rate. I'll admit that I might not be reading this quite right, so if someone with more stats knowledge than me can do better [so NOT Coach] please do. However, even I can see a fairly clear (although not inevitable) correlation.