The Topping From the Bottom Poll

[alice_underneath]

Is it possible that some men through conditioning have yet to explore taking a Dominant stance sexually, may have a credible ability to be 'Dominant' and find it forfilling as an outcome ?

ahuh ........nodding

I believe you, but as I just told Fury, it's a very tricky business getting the message across.

*coughssubmissive

Flattery will get you everywhere with me, Rebecca.

I used the term 'conditioned' before . Lets consider some of the things we teach our sons growing up that may impact on a mans ability to be seen to embrace being 'Dominant' sexually past a conventional point.

Real Men don't hurt woman...............................( not making a list making a point )

Cutural, Religious beliefs, Background of experience concerning violence...........how this things may be perceived to uninitiated........whether your partner might be struggling more within the context of these as opposed to being Dominant sexually

Any further comments pleaseeeeeeeeeeeeee............

You are making an excellent point here. Without knowing the individual in question, it is impossible to tell if the problem is the absence of the self-confident/commanding/controlling urge & or ability required to be dominant, or whether conditioning is holding the guy back from exploring his dominant side.

My observation of the vanilla world (in which I live) is that some men are raised to view women as delicate princesses to be treasured, catered to, and treated with deference. Some men are raised to view women as equals, to be treated with the respect that one would grant to a peer.

Most vanilla men whom I know divide the world between sluts and Nice Girls. They may date or just f*** a slut, but they marry Nice Girls. Which is great for the Nice Girl who only wants a husband, a few kids, and a house in the suburbs. She is going to have an advantage over the slut in achieving this goal. Unfortunately....... she is going to be married to a guy who expects her to behave like a Very Nice Girl.



This sort of conditioning can be very hard for a guy to overcome. Two things are required: an adjustment in his expectations for his wife's behavior, and an adjustment in his expectations for his own.

Given the activities in which Mr. Fury already engages, I'd say he has successfully rejected a very important element of this Very Nice Girl nonsense. From everything I have read (and not just on this particular thread), Mrs. Fury has done an excellent job introducing kink into their lives..... and Mr. Fury has accepted kink to a very considerable degree.

By rejecting the idea that his wife has to behave in a certain way, Mr. Fury has taken a giant step forward, in my opinion. This is tremendously encouraging.

The next step would be an adjustment in his expectations for himself. Can he be taught to think/act like Betticus? And would he want to? Those are the critical questions.

Alice

 

[FurryFury]

Topping from the bottom is perfectly okay even if you aren't "the bottom."

Its called communicating your needs. Only if the "Top" at the time is a complete cad will they ignore what you are requesting, asking for or whatever.

Even something as simple as "a little to the left. no my left." could be "toping from the bottom. But at the same time, it is directing your partner to your sweet spot which will cause both of you to enjoy the encounter that much more.

Hi Mamid!

I agree with you that communication is vital regardless.

Fury

Hi again, Fury.

# Hi again!

Quote:
Originally Posted by FurryFury
I have never and would never hold up a specific person as the person I wanted him to be.

I did not mean to imply that you would hold up a specific person.

I meant to say that you would describe attributes or characteristics of the type of person that you would like him to be.

# Yes, I may have done that but I also made it clear that I have always been happy with him. That I love him regardless and have no desire to hurt him. In our relationship we have promised to be honest. I have constantly astounded him by accepting him exactly how he is the good and the bad. I have never tried to change him.

So conversations between us about this subject tend to be along the lines of, "I feel a deep desire to be spanked would you think you could be interested in that?" and so on.

It's almost like him telling me he'd like to fuck Jennifer Gardner. Or that he'd like strap on sex. I don't get pissed off or hurt by that.

We can talk about other people or types of people we'd like to have sex or types of intimacy we'd like to have without upsetting one another most of the time.

He knows that I would like to feel submissive to the right Dom. I think at this point he understands that just can't be him because he doesn't feel that way.

We've talked about adding one or more people into our intimate lives. We've talked about me going to a Dom at some point. He says he could be cool with that if that's what I need. I haven't yet because, I'm scared, I can't quite believe that he could be okay with that, and it feels so selfish to me.

Still believe it or not he is very happy and very secure in our relationship, pre-naturally so, and he always has been.
Quote:
Originally Posted by alice_underneath
On a different thread, when asked what one thing you would change about your life, you wrote:

"My husband would become a securely, knowledgeable Dominant in the bedroom."

I am guessing that he knows this. He has been getting the message, loud and clear.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FurryFury
Oh I'm sure he does. However he also knows and is very secure in the fact that I will love and accept him regardless.

The male egos that I have known (either directly, or indirectly through discussions with my friends, sisters, etc.) are very closely tied to their perception of their own sexual prowess.

# His sexual prowess is not at question here. Sex has always been good between us. Even back when I couldn't come I loved the sex and it was clear. Back when I could and it was all nilla I still loved the sex. This really isn't about sex so much as power exchange for me.

In any case, this is one extraordinary man ego wise. I've never known anyone so secure in himself and with his own self worth.

You are so generous and loving, Fury. I have absolutely no doubt that you are an affectionate, giving, and wonderful spouse.

# Thank you Alice.

All I am suggesting here is that you are playing with fire when you start telling a man that you wish he were more forceful or powerful or dominant in bed. I am not saying you shouldn't tell him what you need (far from it). I am just saying that you should be very, very careful in the telling.

# I honestly know that. I really feel I have been very careful with all this.

Someone else referenced a "Catch22". No kidding!! To get him to be more powerful, forceful, & dominant (read: "masculine"), you have to tell him that he has never been powerful & forceful & dominant enough to satisfy you. The danger you face is that the message itself will work against the goal you desire.

# Actually I'm not telling him that he has never been powerful, forceful or dominant enough to satisfy me. That wouldn't be true. I've been very happy and satisfied for many years. I never realized that I needed this before this year. He is pretty clear on these points. I love this man dearly and except for this one thing, I am completely happy being with him. I personally think that the key might be to add to our lives not diminish them.

From your example:


Quote:
Originally Posted by FurryFury
I tell him I love him again and really have to go.

"Oh do me a favor today?" I ask.

"What?" He says sounding completely put upon.

"Think about using me later today or tonight."

"Using you?"

"Yeah. Bad."

I walk the fuck out.

Sure, technically you told him you love him.

# I more than told him. I made him feel it but anyway . . .

But what I am really "hearing" here (and what I am guessing he heard too), is that you are frustrated and angry because he is not giving you what you need in bed.

# I doubt that is what he is hearing. What I meant for him to hear is something to make his cock jump. ie, I want you to be thinking of what you can do to me while I'm gone. I did it in a very teasing, playful, suggestive way actually. A lot of this is in the delivery. I like to keep him simmering and primed. I've always done that in our relationship.

Be extremely careful about when & how you tell him what you need. That's all I am suggesting.

# I know Alice this all is coming from a place of empathy and caring. I appreciate it very much! I do feel I am careful. I may have gone a little over the top Wednesday. It was unusal for me to feel such a strong level of need that it was killing me. I still did it in the best way I could think of, I promise. It may have sounded bad but the delivery was better.

Fury

 

[FurryFury]

<snip>You are making an excellent point here. Without knowing the individual in question, it is impossible to tell if the problem is the absence of the self-confident/commanding/controlling urge & or ability required to be dominant, or whether conditioning is holding the guy back from exploring his dominant side.

My observation of the vanilla world (in which I live) is that some men are raised to view women as delicate princesses to be treasured, catered to, and treated with deference. Some men are raised to view women as equals, to be treated with the respect that one would grant to a peer.

Most vanilla men whom I know divide the world between sluts and Nice Girls. They may date or just f*** a slut, but they marry Nice Girls. Which is great for the Nice Girl who only wants a husband, a few kids, and a house in the suburbs. She is going to have an advantage over the slut in achieving this goal. Unfortunately....... she is going to be married to a guy who expects her to behave like a Very Nice Girl.



This sort of conditioning can be very hard for a guy to overcome. Two things are required: an adjustment in his expectations for his wife's behavior, and an adjustment in his expectations for his own.

Given the activities in which Mr. Fury already engages, I'd say he has successfully rejected a very important element of this Very Nice Girl nonsense. From everything I have read (and not just on this particular thread), Mrs. Fury has done an excellent job introducing kink into their lives..... and Mr. Fury has accepted kink to a very considerable degree.

By rejecting the idea that his wife has to behave in a certain way, Mr. Fury has taken a giant step forward, in my opinion. This is tremendously encouraging.

The next step would be an adjustment in his expectations for himself. Can he be taught to think/act like Betticus? And would he want to? Those are the critical questions.

Alice

This "Mr Fury," is a VERY confident man. He is very rare. He knows himself in ways most men never have the courage or do the work to find out. He simply isn't into control in the bedroom.

He has always put me on a pedestal. A thing I've always found irritating and never wanted. He tends to blame anyone but me for anything that goes wrong.

Since I'm "that kind of girl," I've tried to educate him to my flaws. He tends to ignore my efforts but yes, he has accepted and embraced the hot dirty kinky sex part of me rather joyfully as long as he doesn't have to take charge.

Yes our relationship is one of equals and respect for one another. That is something I would expect with any Dominant I may be involved with in the future btw.

A slut or a nice girl? *chuckles* That was never part of the equation for us. After all we had sex on our first "date." A night in which I simply called him up and asked him if he'd like to come over and have sex with me. LOL! I've never considered myself a slut. I've always considered myself a nice girl. That hasn't changed. I simply love sex. Now I love kinky stuff too. When they are mixed together that is even better!!!

I never wanted to get married either. That was what he wanted. I had fucked up one marriage and wasn't eager to do another. (I didn't want to get married the first time either but felt I had to.)

I had a deep fear of marriage after the first one but I could hardly deny him what he wanted or give him less than the ass hole I married the first time.

I don't think he can be taught to act and think like Mr. B nor would want to. However he is a good role player in his own way. That could go a looooong way to this issue but never truly be fulfilling in my opinion.

If he told me right this minute that he was uncomfortable with all of this and I had to stop. I would. It would be very painful but I would stop. I've always felt that way. He that knows it too.

He has always granted me the utmost freedom to do what I wanted. I love that about him. I've also resented it from time to time. I don't want to make the "right" or "adult" decision all the time. I'd love him to simply tell me no, now and then.

Fury

 

[@}-}rebecca----]

If he told me right this minute that he was uncomfortable with all of this and I had to stop. I would. It would be very painful but I would stop. I've always felt that way. He that knows it too.

Fury

Oh Miss Fury I would have to say all the other things aside if and I believe it is the truth , in your comment quoted above, you have never 'topped' this man and 'He that knows it too.' When it comes down to it you respect and love him enough to defer at your own cost. This is not a trivia Miss Fury this is significent truth.

 

[FurryFury]

Oh Miss Fury I would have to say all the other things aside if and I believe it is the truth , in your comment quoted above, you have never 'topped' this man and 'He that knows it too.' When it comes down to it you respect and love him enough to defer at your own cost. This is not a trivia Miss Fury this is significent truth.

*HUG*

Thanks Rebecca!

Fury

 

[FurryFury]

Ohhh Miss Fury I go all Morticia Adams when you speak le français....laughs...C'etait formidable! Pourrais-tu defaire les attaches, s'il te plait?



Ohhh nevermind ( la petite mort)



J’ai réservé un chambre au nom de Madame Fury

LOL! Rebecca, I had to really think about what I had said that was French! You see to me that is a New Orleans saying that I grew up with. I don't honestly speak French but I too love it and think of The Adams Family when I see or hear it. I am however pretty fluent in AltaVista Babel Fish Translating.

I speak with someone quite regularly who uses French with me and I with them. It is delicious.

Merci de réserver une salle pour moi, mon ami chéri. Je me tiens des souhaits affectueux pour vous voir et pour passer le temps avec vous un jour!

Of course French and English do not smoothly translate one from the other but that is part of the fun and joy.

Fury

 

[Mamid]

Hi Mamid!

I agree with you that communication is vital regardless.

Fury



Fury

Yes it is vital.

and my missing this for several days shows you what happenes when communication breaks down. sorry... kids, life, being sick...

 

[nipple jewelry]

I want to think that all things being equal, you can "switch" until you find what really works for you. But communications between all involved is essential.

My three cents.

N&m

 

[FurryFury]

Yes it is vital.

and my missing this for several days shows you what happenes when communication breaks down. sorry... kids, life, being sick...

I'm sorry too! Having my kids sick always brings me down!

*hugs*

Fury

I want to think that all things being equal, you can "switch" until you find what really works for you. But communications between all involved is essential.

My three cents.

N&m

I agree. It's not the switching thing that bothers me at all. Communication is essential! It was just being accused of something that I didn't really feel I was doing. I felt I was simply doing the best I could with what I had.

Fury

 

[Raine D8]

Fascinatingly (and for which I'm surprised doesn't give a new POV on the whole sadaism and masochism theoretical field) Leopold von Sacher-Masoch appears to have been a top from the bottom. Certainly, this is what you'll read in his first (I think) wife's autobiography, 'Confessions of Wanda von Sacher-Masoch'. Great topic. I will enjoy reading the rest of this thread.

 

[Mamid]

its not the kids that have been sick. its me. I had gotten the flu for Christmas and am now going through the third phase of it.

-------------------------------------

To give a good quote about power transfer:

"You have no power over me. None that I haven't given you!"

 

[@}-}rebecca----]

I want to think that all things being equal, you can "switch" until you find what really works for you. But communications between all involved is essential.

My three cents.

N&m

I know thats true for some. I have never been able to 'switch'. The slightest hint of heading into what I personally consider 'Dominant Territory' (I have some sort of personal built in radar for this) I start to get very very uncomfortable. This can range from feeling 'lost' to actually feeling physically ill . Keeping in mind these comments are in the context of a relationship (not playing, just not my thing). Big thumbs up for communication its been my freedom in submission (but thats a whole other topic).

You know how that stereotype exists that submissives are caring/nurturing etc well I know I fall within that context. However in a Ds relationship when like all humans (oops yes Dominants are human...lol) I have been faced by a Dominant having a stage of compromise (and has deviated from his usual demeanour) due to sadness, disappointment, illness , loss I have really struggled intially to be sincere in what is needed of me. Does that make sense ?

 

[FurryFury]

Fascinatingly (and for which I'm surprised doesn't give a new POV on the whole sadaism and masochism theoretical field) Leopold von Sacher-Masoch appears to have been a top from the bottom. Certainly, this is what you'll read in his first (I think) wife's autobiography, 'Confessions of Wanda von Sacher-Masoch'. Great topic. I will enjoy reading the rest of this thread.

Welcome to the thread Raine D8!

You comments are interesting. I haven't read the work you reference here your words do make me wonder if I should!

Fury

its not the kids that have been sick. its me. I had gotten the flu for Christmas and am now going through the third phase of it.

-------------------------------------

To give a good quote about power transfer:

"You have no power over me. None that I haven't given you!"

*hugs*

That sounds rough. I'm sorry to hear you've been ill.

Fury

I know thats true for some. I have never been able to 'switch'. The slightest hint of heading into what I personally consider 'Dominant Territory' (I have some sort of personal built in radar for this) I start to get very very uncomfortable. This can range from feeling 'lost' to actually feeling physically ill . Keeping in mind these comments are in the context of a relationship (not playing, just not my thing). Big thumbs up for communication its been my freedom in submission (but thats a whole other topic).

You know how that stereotype exists that submissives are caring/nurturing etc well I know I fall within that context. However in a Ds relationship when like all humans (oops yes Dominants are human...lol) I have been faced by a Dominant having a stage of compromise (and has deviated from his usual demeanour) due to sadness, disappointment, illness , loss I have really struggled intially to be sincere in what is needed of me. Does that make sense ?

It does make sense to me. You have to struggle with a role you are not comfortable with while it appears he is being less Dominant. It makes you uncomfortable. Did I get it right?

Fury

 

[jetdriver68]

Sure, why not?

 

[FurryFury]

Sure, why not?

Why not what? What are you referring to specifically?

Fury

 

[FurryFury]

Not long ago, when I started this thread I was pretty frustrated. Perhaps I was even in a sub "frenzy."

Now I would just like to say that for the present I am happy with this portion of my life. On a recent couple of nights, my husband really rose to the occasion and made me a very happy girl.

It was more than the spanking with rose stems, or hot wax or fucking. It was also the wonderful conversations we had, the quiet moments and the expressions in his face that make me feel very satisfied with him right now.

So I just wanted y'all to know I feel progress has been made in a lot of ways. I'm just fine in this area of my life for the moment.

Most of the time we concentrate on what is wrong in our lives or what more we want.

In this moment I just want to concentrate on what is good and fulfilling. I think it's a good thing to do from time to time. We sometimes forget to do this, I know I do and that is a shame IMO.

Fury

 

[John Doe]

That is one of the dumbest fucking questions I've ever heard.

 

[FurryFury]

That is one of the dumbest fucking questions I've ever heard.

Thank you for your lovely and positive input into the thread.

Fury

 

[rbijon]

Not long ago, when I started this thread I was pretty frustrated. Perhaps I was even in a sub "frenzy."

Now I would just like to say that for the present I am happy with this portion of my life. On a recent couple of nights, my husband really rose to the occasion and made me a very happy girl.

It was more than the spanking with rose stems, or hot wax or fucking. It was also the wonderful conversations we had, the quiet moments and the expressions in his face that make me feel very satisfied with him right now.

So I just wanted y'all to know I feel progress has been made in a lot of ways. I'm just fine in this area of my life for the moment.

Most of the time we concentrate on what is wrong in our lives or what more we want.

In this moment I just want to concentrate on what is good and fulfilling. I think it's a good thing to do from time to time. We sometimes forget to do this, I know I do and that is a shame IMO.

Fury

These are some of the most insightful words I have read here on Lit.

Thank you Fury, being grateful is a wonderful fulfilling virtue.
....you made my day!

 

[FurryFury]

These are some of the most insightful words I have read here on Lit.

Thank you Fury, being grateful is a wonderful fulfilling virtue.
....you made my day!

You are welcome and please know that you, in turn, have made mine. Thank you!

Fury

 

[rbijon]

You are welcome and please know that you, in turn, have made mine. Thank you!

Fury

And Thank you again!

.....i am going to bed!

 

[FurryFury]

And Thank you again!

.....i am going to bed!

Anytime and sweet sticky dreams to you then! That sounds like a damned fine idea.



Fury

 

[FurryFury]

Today someone told me I was a switch. I can and do switch but I don't feel I am a switch. Hmm. Of course I feel it would be okay to be one, that isn't my issue. My issue is I feel deep down inside I am to my core, submissive.

What do y'all think?

Fury

 

[leeroy jenkins]

Today someone told me I was a switch. I can and do switch but I don't feel I am a switch. Hmm. Of course I feel it would be okay to be one, that isn't my issue. My issue is I feel deep down inside I am to my core submissive.

What do y'all think?

Fury

How can we even fathom an answer to that question without knowing the whole Fury?? Can't you be a switch with heavy subbie tendencies??

 

[FurryFury]

LOL!

Anyone who reads me on here enough knows me pretty damn well.

Anyway the question is, are you what you do? Are you what people think you are? Or are you what you feel deep inside you are?

Fury